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Posted By: Ken Hurst "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:01 AM
Okay guys, give me a chance and I'll try and explain the project.

I have wanted to re make the Lefever shotgun but better than the original. To this end, I have arranged to have Steve Earle machine the action & ejector forend. Another friend of Antolio Zolli will be checking with him in the next few days re. 20 ga. bbl's.--- 28 ga. will be available if there is a demand and will be fitted to clients gun on return of same. The idea is to have the bbl action made here using Italian made bbl's.

The action will be made of the best steels available and the machining will be of a level not seen one any American gun ever made --- period ! Our own Doug Mann and Glenn Fewless have seen and handles actions made by Steve Earle and can testify to their high quality. Steve will duplicate the action and improve it by tightening up the tolerances as well as using different steels that are best for their intended purposes. IE -- D2 steel will be used for the sears, hammer and triggers. 8620 will be used for the frame, forarm, trigger guard and top break lever. Steve never sends any of his action or any of their parts for normal heat treating, rather, he sends them to a specialty hest treat shop for best possible quality.

My idea is to offer this bbl action in a way that it will be a bespoken gun. The idea is to eliminate the middle man in order to make the project more affordable. A client would pay Steve directly for the action, another man for the bbl and fitting charges. At the same time he would order either 26" or 28 " bbl and indicate the choke desired. On receiving metal, the new owner could personally select/furnish his wood to stocker with desired diamentions for completion of stock as well as deciding on checkering pattern, finish and type of recoil pad, skeleton butt plate & etc. On completion of these steps, the metal can be sent out for engraving if desired as well as type finish required.

All these steps can be paid for on their completion and time between various steps can be allowed to fit clients budget ( saving a little money for following step).

This is just a rough outline of my perposal and I fully admit to be lacking in this arena. To this end I would appreciate any thought, replys, suggestions or rejections. If there is a lawyer who would like to contribute a few minutes of his time for a few questions, please advise via my email (kenhurst@suddenlink.net). We could certainly use some advice and would appreciate gearing from you.

Okay guys, as Frazier said " I'm listening." Ken
Posted By: dubbletrubble Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:05 AM
So Ken what ballpark number would it be for a completed gun?
Posted By: RGS022 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:16 AM
Ken, This sounds terrific. I am growing tired of looking at trashed Lefevers that are said to be in fine condition. To have a classic American shotgun made with quality steels would be great. I sure hope the details can be worked out. It may not be an "original" Lefever, but the ability to shoot modern ammunition would sell me.

Bill
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:19 AM
There isn't any figure yet for the action & forend but would be able to give estimate after Steve receives an action to measure & make a protype. Cost of bbl's , wood and stockwork will varie depending on what the client wants. My main concern is to put together a few top line guys to do the work ( finished metal in the white). I will arrange to help with the other sources if neede. Mostly , my concern is for this wonderful lightweight bbl action be made available at the least cost for you guys. I won't be making any money for these efforts. The bottom line will be determined by how much you want to spend for the extras such as grade of wood & engraving. You will pay each man directly for his services. You can take as much time as you wish between steps so the total cost can be spred out over as much time as you may wish. I WILL get you the guestimated cost after the first proto is run. Right now I just fishing for opinioms & your thoughts.

Steve tells me it will require approx. 2-3 mon. for him to totally measure all the diamentions of the entire gun inside & out. These have to be transfered to a program and then he has to build.machine parts fixtures before he can start work. In all this rambling, I sincerely hope i have imparted some more info even tho I can't give figures at the moment. I need to see if there is as much interest available. Ken
Posted By: dblfever Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:20 AM
I am sure you will get many suggestions so I will start, the actions should all be cnc machined so as to all be identical so that the stock machining could be done in the same manner by who ever you find able to handle the wood machining for each customer. A Lefever is not a easy action to hand inlet with the curvy stepped safety tang , sideplates and all. Just a thought.....
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:22 AM
RGSO22 ---- Steve was upset when I made him increase the gap between the breech block from a 1/2 thousand to 1 1/2 thound --- said I was making him make a sloppy action. Ken
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:26 AM
Thank you dblfever --- Steve has some of the finest CNC mills & lath in his shop. He only buys the best programs available. When I suggested he let me have the external hammer shown on the Wesson action pictureed on the Wesson thread, he refused --- it had to be completed.

Foe anyone interested, Steve lives in Plypton , Mass. close to Boston. You would be made to feel at home if you'd like to visit & see his set-up. Let me know and I will arrange it for you. Ken
Posted By: PeteM Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:30 AM
Ken,

It is a great idea if it can be pulled off. A few questions.

How long will the whole process take? Bottom line for the action and fitted barrels? I assume the sky is the limit regarding the stock work and engraving as everyone will be taking care of that individually if I understand correctly. What other if any choices are there? Extractors, ejectors, double triggers, single trigger, barrel lengths, finish of the metal, etc?

Finally, how will the gun be stamped? As a Lefever or something else? Does Ithaca still retain the Lefever name?

Pete
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:40 AM
PeteM --- I'm kicking the idea of remaking the infowlable singe trigger made in the 20's. There is one available to me to measure for duplicating. otherwise, the idea is to have dbl triggers and auto ejectors --- I wasn't sure if extracters would be acceptabl to y'all. The matal will be left in the ehite as I felt in foolish to charge a client for color case if he wanted to have it engraved. This way, he doesn't have to bear the extra expense of having the frame annealed too. The bbl lengths will be 26 & 28" so we won't have to carry a large inventory of bbl's. This too could change if indicated by response from y'all. The name may be for sale But we won't know until we can get a lawyer to check for us or do the calling ourselves. The gun itself hasn't been made in almost 100 years and therfore is out of patent as I understand. ken
Posted By: Doug Mann Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:40 AM
Dt, I had a really nice response prepared and the the internet world lost it somewhere.

I was going to say that I've seen a number of Steve Earle Wesson actions now and they are wonderful right out of the box. They are a "tour de "force" of machining IMHO and I would be willing to compare them to other actions at more than twice the price.

I think it's difficult to put a hard number on a price only because of the other variables involved i.e engraving, stock work etc.
Posted By: bbman3 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:40 AM
Ken, sounds great! I can do my own stock work and barrel fitting! The barrels need to be made so they can be fitted to original XX frames. I believe there would be a market for them! Also parts like toplever springs, trigger springs, sears, etc. Bobby
Posted By: KY Jon Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:45 AM
I think that you have the right idea. One basic model with as few options but as much custom room as possible. The concept of a in the white action, with a set or two sets of barrels should work for almost all of us. Unless the numbers get way too high it should be a interesting project.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 02:52 AM
bbman, I hadn't given thoughtto supplying extra bbl's for the consumer but why not --- as long as they are 20 & 28 ga. If there is a big enough demand, might also offer all ga. in 4140 to public. And, yeah --- it'll be a lightweight action.

KY Jon --- thank you for the vote of confidence. By doing the project this way, many people can build the gun they want , the way they want. I believe you'll be surprised how resonable the action/forend will be. Ken
Posted By: Bob Noble Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 03:03 AM
How will these rate with the RBL?
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 03:08 AM
Bob --- I'm told that the RBL is finished machined casting --- don't personally know. I do know that Steve only will work on normalized steel and that all parts (even springs) will be machined from bar stock. The action he currently makes is even hand polished to a 400 grit finish "by hand." Steve even polishes the bottom and sides of the tangs this way. I tell y'all , Steve Earle is a complete fool.fanatic for best quality --- and has been over the years that I have had the pleasure of knowing him ! Ken
Posted By: PeteM Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 03:11 AM
Ken,

If these are any thing like the Wesson that Steve does, I am in. Heck, I can spend the next 10 years completing the project... I have taken longer. Just gotta call Cecil for the wood!

And now for the curve ball. Any chance of a paradox barrel set?

Pete
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 03:21 AM
Ahhh Mr. Pete --- leave it to you. The call to Zoli is just taking place now. I never thought about that BUT, if there is a demand , welllll. Ken
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 03:26 AM
Pete --- Yeah, these actions will actually be a tad better as Steve just bought some more VERY expensive programing for the CNC equipment. He tells me it will improve the quality level however I probably won;t be able to see the differenc unless Steve points it out. He doesn't care if a place can't be seen normally. The breech block mortise in the Wesson action could have been broached out cheaper but Steve incisted on wire EDM for that work and even for the trigger slots. He incisted there be a min. of 1 1/2 thou clearence Max. on these areas. Ken
Posted By: Glenn Fewless Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 03:35 AM
Gentlemens:

This is the first I heard about this project and find it most interesting. I can assure you that if Mr. Earle does make this action it will be a dandy. His Wesson #1 action is undoubtedly the finest made action I have ever worked with. As for the cost, the Wesson is a steal for the price and I would expect this action to be a bargain as well. I look forward to seeing more on this. If Uncle Dan can design it, Mr. Earle can build it.

I'm a gonna call and tell him I want one in 16 bore.... it just so happens I have this piece of Turkish that I was going to use for a stalking rifle. I might just reconsider.

I hereby officially claim serial #4 to keep my #4 Wesson company.

Glenn
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 03:44 AM
Okay Mr. Glenn, you can have #4, just send your deposit in . I was going to call you until I heard you had a boo boo. Steve told me today he bought some more killer equipment and it will be used on this project. He said he would only do it if he could make improvements where he saw the need. Well, you know how he is. I'll call you in a few minutes to further discuss this with you.

Oh yeah, the action will be scaled down for a 20 ga. so the 16 bbl's which weren't planned on won't fit. Ken
Posted By: rabbit Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 04:02 AM
How many multiples of an RBL price are you talking for a barreled action, Mr. Ken? Music to the ears but doesn't sound like Marklart's answer to the Remington 1100.

jack
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 04:59 AM
I only wish I could say Mr. Jack. As soon as I can get an ejector gun to Steve, he'll start taking measurements of every part inside and outer measurements. He will have to crunch the numbers so to speak. Steve is so honest, he will insist on going to the expense of machining all the required fixtues for holding parts while machining them. There will be more than one fixture needed to completely machine one part ( different operations). He will actually build a complete action minus bbl to honestly establish a price. He tells me he will need 2-3 months to do everything "excep"t make the parts. As soon as I get the word, I'll give y'all the word. Ken
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 05:12 AM
Ken,
Sounds like a great project. Just an observation from Tony Galazan's RBL, he indicated that the RBL was being machined after full heat treat hardening to eliminate any distortion from heat treat.

Best of luck. Keep us posted on the progress.
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 05:20 AM
Ken, two days ago, I posted about my dream of someone re-making the Lefever with modern materials as an improvement on the original. Hallelujah, Dreams do come true! Your project is a practical and innovative amalgam of customer-focused ideas, with one exception: You MUST make it available with 16ga. barrels on the 20ga. frame. Upland hunters will be buying the gun. Give them what they want. There is no shortage of 20 bores available, but very few 16's. The 16 is simply more bang for the buck, especially for western hunters that encounter a wide variety of birds, and it can be built on the same frame as the 20. My 16b. is built on the 20ga. xx frame, so I don't see why it couldn't work. Please give it some serious consideration. We 16'ers would come out in droves, believe me. As for myself, I might be able to buy in too, once I know what the cost is. Good luck!!
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 05:22 AM
I might also add, regarding Rabbit's quote to me: "Between the thought and the action, lies the shadow." How apt indeed.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 05:39 AM
Glad to hear that you feel the lughtweight wouldn't be to light for the 16 ga. Indeed this would certainly be a consideration. My interest is to be able to offer ( as Uncle Dan did) as many features as possible. I most certainly pass this along to others that will be involved with me in helping to grt this project flying. I would also like to assure you that this action will be the finest piece of precision workmanship you have ever run across. Steve Earle is a past master of the highest order that I have ever seen. Believe me, in 48 years in the trade I think I have seen it all. Thanks for the feedback. Ken
Posted By: AWOLF Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 05:41 AM
Ken!
Do you know if steve uses SolidWorks? What type of 3-d modeling program does he use?
Thanks
Posted By: RMC Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 05:46 AM
Ken, I'm going to take off my socks in tribute to your new venture. Comments and questions? Lefever is a great gun, good choice. I have a 16ga. Lefever in my hands and it is made on the XX frame. Also, handled a 20ga. Lefever today and it is made on a XX frame also. What gives? Another yes vote on 16. Did you see the comments when the RBL came out and all the ones holding out for the 16ga. Any chance of getting rid of the cocking indicators and those firing pin screws on the frame. Get the frame cleaned up for some of your engraving. Love DT and extractor function. Nothing matches the sweet sound of the extractor gun closing up with a clunk instead of passing wind as you struggle to cock the ejectors on closing. Make sure the ebony portrait insert in the forearm is something other than the Cocker Spaniel that's in my gun. Concave rib, instead of flat? Good luck and you may have really done it this time. Sounds like you've picked a talent pool of the finest our sport has to offer. Randy
Posted By: Chris Schotz Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 12:00 PM
Ken,
What is Steve Earle's phone number?
Thanks,
Chris
Posted By: PeteM Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 12:13 PM
Here is an article about Steve and his work on the Wesson:
http://www.assra.com/feature-november_december-2004.htm

His address and telephone number are in the article.

Pete
Posted By: Larry Leake Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 01:05 PM
First, kudos to you, Mr. Hurst! What a wonderful project with such talented players. If this gets off the ground, I may just have to have another round of selling from the gun cabinet...

I'll throw in with the 16/20 on the XX frame crowd. I know that the sub-gauges are all the rage now, but realistically, more people are apt to go to the 16/20 for the majority of their hunting. Besides, Uncle Dan never produced the 28 and .410, although this may not make a hill of beans to most folks. I just know that my 16 GE with the 26" tubes on the XX frame is one sweet bird gun! All my best to you in your endeavor.

Regards,
Larry
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 01:05 PM
The builders may want to copy the long thread on frame sizes from the "old" Lefever forum. If all information submitted was correct, the XX frame was of more than one firing pin separation dimension. As we all know, firing pin separation is what makes a frame suitable for whatever gauges. It is the dimension that the rest of the frame is built around. The size of the breech balls is secondary to pin separation. Firing pin separation can and should be sufficient for 16 gauge use, and can be without being too bulky for 20 and 28 gauge use. Using Parkers and Lefevers for an example, 16 gauge guns were commonly made with firing pin separation of as little as one inch. However, Parker made at least one ten gauge gun on a frame with firing pin separation of 1 1/16" firing pin separation, so it may be possible to make a 16 with separation of less than one inch. In my opinion, the 26" barrel option could be canned for a 30" option. A.H.Fox for one example, commonly used cut 28" barrel sets to fill orders for 26" open bored guns when finished 26" barrel sets were in short supply. There shouldn't be a need to stockpile the recently less than popular 26" barrel sets for the new Lefever when existing 28" sets can be cut to 26" for those who prefer them. Long chokes should insure that at least an improved cylinder and modified will remain in a barrel set cut 2 inches.
Posted By: RMC Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 01:08 PM
Ken, Petes referenced an article on the Wesson. Awhile back,did you not post a photo of a Wesson action with your engraving? I don't mean to get off track of this thread, but your photo really highlights the work of two of our outstanding gun talents. Can't wait to see the project when Doug starts to let the chips fly. Lastly, You can't have started this project without having firmed up the details of the engraving to go on #1001. Lets have it. Or do you want "OPINIONS" Randy
Posted By: Small Bore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 01:25 PM
Sounds very ambitious and very interesting.

I like to see people with vision and the energy to actually put their ideas into motion.

Many people would like to build their own gun and you will offer a siund platform on which to do so. Good luck with the project.
Oscar used to use the rude crude Stevens single trigger design on Parkers. He said it was very reliable and easy to make.
bill
Posted By: Fred Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 03:10 PM
Ken, I am beyond impressed by what you're doing. I think the 16/20 is a great choice, particularly a properly-scaled 16 of modern materials fully capable of digesting SAAMI stuff.

If no heat treating after machining is contemplated, why not keep the tolerances below 0.0015"? When I visited Ivo Fabbri 23 years ago, he was operating at or very near the 0.0005" Steve Earle is proposing. His mantra was/is CNC machine to super-fine tolerances, then use highly-skilled hand work only for visible beautification and polishing a few critical surfaces.

Incidentally, Tulio was in college (grad school?) at the time and was installing a DNC system to serve the CNC-controlled shop during his summer vacation. Steve might find this interesting, if he isn't already a student of Fabbri's pioneering techniques.
Posted By: Craig Havener Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 03:12 PM
Great project idea! I agree with others for need of 16/20 combo,double triggers and extractors.
Can't wait to see projected estimates on pricing.

Craig
Would the 28 ga be on a smaller frame?
Posted By: Jim Legg Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 03:36 PM
I wish you well, Ken. It wasn't clear, at least to me, but I assume this will be a side-plate Syracuse action gun? My only suggestions would be two triggers, extractors and barrel lengths of 28" and 30", forget the 26". I'm excited to watch how this develops. Other thoughts are that Lefever made many more 12 ga. guns than any other. There was a reason for that and still is.
Best wishes
Posted By: B Frech Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 04:05 PM
Ken - Admittedly, I know very little about Lefevers. You asked for suggestions and you are getting them. I'm sure you are seeing many of the same requests that Fox, Parker, Smith, and Ithaca did. I'm also sure you realize this project can't be all things to all people. It's smart to plan now for things you may want to offer in the future, but I would suggest that you use the KISS method for the first offering. I'm not comparing the gun itself with the RBL, but even with all the resources available to Tony Galazan, look at how few options are offered on the RBL. The options that are offered seem to be ones that don't require a lot of extra machining, hand fitting, or inventory. I would like to see this project be a huge success, and, IMHO, a compromise between the number of options offered and simplicity of logistics will be necessary, at least at the outset. The fact that you will leave the engraving, and wood to the individual owner leads me to believe you've considered this, but wanted to let you know there are others out here who understand that also.
I think the best seller would be a 16 Syracuse Lefever sideplate on the XX frame with extractors & 28" bbls. If we know the cost of the assembled & fitted bbls (in the white or blued) and the receiver before engraving, then I guess everyone could approximate the cost of doing it the way they want. I'd be inclined to F grade engraving. I'd be more than happy to run a piece on this in the Lefever Arms Collectors Association newsletter, when you get the project a little farther along, i.e. with ballpark prices for the barreled frames. Good luck on this. Rich
Posted By: BirdogEd Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 04:11 PM
DoubleGunners,
Many may not know that Ken has posted additional information over on The Lefever Forum too, and it might be worth a look.

http://lefeverforum.informe.com/index.php?sid=0674c89e12aaba0c39927faf92ac51c9

Double Gun Regards
Posted By: Steven M Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 05:02 PM
I'd be very interested in building up one of these so long as it's a sideplated gun. A while back I was thinking about having an engraving project done on a Spanish gun but I think this sounds a bit more interesting. I'm guessing SN #1 is taken, but I'd like SN 7 or 8 if it's not spoken for.

Personally, I'd rather have the options of 30" and 28" over 26", and I'd rather have a larger bore than smaller. I'd greatly prefer 12 over 16/20. Depending on cost I might consider a set of guns (12, 20) if the decision was made to go with the larger action.

On the Lefever forum it's mentioned that there's a possibility of rifle barrels. I'm already drooling.
Posted By: Terry Buffum Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 05:23 PM
Ken,

Do you plan to reproduce the stepped side plate action found on the B and up grades, and, if so, will the barrels carry the "bat wing" found on original C and up? I agree with the several posters that 30 inch barrels will be more saleable than 26. I also agree that fewer options early on will increase the chance of financial success. I suggest 20 only initially, then 16 to follow. Personally, I've thought about making a 28 from a DS 20, but don't think the 28 is the main road to commercial (even limited scale) success.

I have studied Steve Earle's Wesson actions, and they are of the finest craftsmanship! I believe he still makes them in 25 unit batches, so we are talking about VERY limited production!

Great project. I will certainly buy one. Good luck!

Terry
Posted By: RMC Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 05:35 PM
Here's a shout from the wilderness. Keep with the 26" barrels. Anyone else out there prefer this length? Randy
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 05:39 PM
I explained in an earlier post how the manufacturing list could be limited to two longer barrel lengths with the option of a third shorter option. It was done by A.H.Fox and I think it was done by Hunter Arms Company also.
Short tubes would be what I prefer, but you can not please everyone.

Ken we had discussed a 3 gun Labrador bulino engraving project... with the possibility of getting it done on a new in the white American made gun... well now we are talking!
Posted By: Bouvier Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 06:16 PM
Ken:


This is a great undertaking. I think there has to be a mechanism for gun buyers like myself to have an entity shepherd the process through the "guild" of craftsmen. I have no problem paying each craftsman in advance as the work progresses but I would feel more secure with someone expediting things along the track to completion. I know that sky's the limit when it comes to customization but there needs to be someplace for the buyer to ballpark the finished product in a couple of basic grades. As to price, in my view a $7,000 to $10,000 would be a salable range for a sub gage with an extra bbl.

Al
Posted By: Roy Eckrose Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 06:38 PM
Originally Posted By: RMC
Here's a shout from the wilderness. Keep with the 26" barrels. Anyone else out there prefer this length? Randy


Yes, I would prefer the 26" length, too. Cast my vote for availabity of the 16 on the XX frame. My normal companion Lefever is currently a 16 with 26" tubes.

What a great project!
Posted By: Tom W Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 07:06 PM
Ken
I am a first time poster- have an RBL on order -would be very interested in one of these- price is some object.
Posted By: Bill Hambidge Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 07:25 PM
Ken, this is the project we were discussing yesterday when I had to so rudely leave and tend my color case furnace. I'm still for KISS-Keep It Simple Stupid. DT's and extractors, start with 20 gauge. Base, in the white price 3-5K, wood and engraving seperate. Personally as a thick cover bird hunter, 26" is my "thing", however.... Think you are on to a great idea and that there are many folks who will support you. Best, Dr. BILL ps Parker action should arrive back to you today/tomorrow. "Sweet Elsie" is in the hospital to have her cracks and crumbles glassed!
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 07:35 PM
I'm floored after seeing the Wesson he has on his site...for about $1100. Amazing at twice that price. If he prices the Lefever commesurate with the Wesson, I'll buy one for sure.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 07:59 PM
Chuck, that price is over a year old and he raised it to $1185. due to all the increases in cost of steels and tooling. The cost of living index also took a jump ---- Steve was sorry he had to raise the price.

I spoke to Steve this morning and urged him to join our merry little group so that y'all could ask questions. He told me he really didn't have much time to get on the computer as he stays slammed but will do so.

Also, I have been offered a XX lughtweight 16 ga. Levefer for Steve to measure for programing. I will send the donor Steves address today and the gun should be off to him within a day or so. SOOOO, looks like we are now offand running with the metal. A friend will be talking to Zoli within a few days to see about making arrangments for the bbl's. I have listened to you guys and decided that a 16-29 ga. bbl is the way to start. The 16 and 20 will fit the same frame.

There is a gentleman who has offered to furnish cases with label for those who want it in either canvas or leather cover. More on this as required.

More to come as it gets to me. Ken
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 07:59 PM
Chuck, that price is over a year old and he raised it to $1185. due to all the increases in cost of steels and tooling. The cost of living index also took a jump ---- Steve was sorry he had to raise the price.

I spoke to Steve this morning and urged him to join our merry little group so that y'all could ask questions. He told me he really didn't have much time to get on the computer as he stays slammed but will do so.

Also, I have been offered a XX lughtweight 16 ga. Levefer for Steve to measure for programing. I will send the donor Steves address today and the gun should be off to him within a day or so. SOOOO, looks like we are now offand running with the metal. A friend will be talking to Zoli within a few days to see about making arrangments for the bbl's. I have listened to you guys and decided that a 16-29 ga. bbl is the way to start. The 16 and 20 will fit the same frame.

There is a gentleman who has offered to furnish cases with label for those who want it in either canvas or leather cover. More on this as required.

More to come as it gets to me. Ken
Posted By: Bouvier Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 09:31 PM
Ken:

I think the 16/20 28" or 29" combo is a very good idea. If the price came in at $7-$10,000 for a finished and stocked gun I'll get in the line as soon as you are ready.

Al
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 10:40 PM
Al, all I will be able to offer is the price on the bbl/action. You would have to pick out your own choice of blank and have whoever do the stocking. The finish on frame would be completed after engraving (if any req.) and you would send that to a metal finisher & pay him for his services. As you can see, you are the one who will determine the final cost.

It was my intention to put this project together with the best people/craftmen --- each doing his own thing and charging for his services only. The idea was to eliminate markup over actual cost for services & save you guys some money. By having each craftsman charg only for his services, you'll save quite a bit of loot. You will also be able to stop and start the project as available money allows but still have gun built to suit you & your taste. PLEASE ---- all be patient with me and those involved as we are trying to get facts and figures together as soon as can be. This will happen in due time. Also, you won't have to put any money down except a deposit for bbl/action. If you change your mind, money will be refunded immediately. I would guess the deposit would be $500. max or less --- that would be up to Steve Earle. He required a $250. deposite on the Wesson action ($1185.)with order and will probably do something the same here.

Steve should be joining us hopefully this evening --- he is wide open to questions. Ken
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 11:25 PM
Ken, a zero frame Parker with pin separation at one inch exactly is a very proper fit for 16, 20, and 28 gauge barrels. The thing that will make a one inch XX frame Lefever a bit slimmer looking than a zero frame 28 gauge Parker is the fact that the Lefever frame tapers in at the front more than the almost slab sided Parker frame does. Make sure your donor frame is an actual one inch pin separation frame. Our thread on the old Lefever forum uncovered the fact that some XX frames had firing pin separation of more than one inch, making the whole frame and barrel assembly more massive than it has to be. In my opinion, the one inch frame is to be preferred over any with a larger separation. Your barrel supplier should be able to make barrels in all three sizes as easily as for just two if the firing pin separation is the same for all three. In addition, some of your contributors seem to thing that a 26" barrel option made from cut 28" barrels has to have a separation between the barrels at the muzzle. That is not true, depending on the design of the barrel assembly. I have Parkers that are cut from 30" to 26" that have touching tubes at the muzzle. Zoli can make your barrel sets the same way if they won't make the three lengths at a reasonable price. My guess is that they will not charge you any more to offer a choice of three lengths than they would charge for just two choices. Yes, 26" should be offered, but so should the very popular 30".
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 11:28 PM
Bill, thanks for bringing that up --- we have already realized that fact but are welcoming these suggestions. Never can tell when there will be an over looked fact. Dr. Bill has your Parker butt plate and is doing the nitre blue finish on it now. Best and thanks again, Ken
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 11:33 PM
Ken, I hope to have the live fire test as soon as I receive the buttplate. I have one set of barrels in the shop but still have one set at home. The unveiling will probably be at the Southern.
Posted By: Bill Hambidge Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 11:52 PM
Bill, plan to fire up the nitre blue salts tomorrow. The "Sweet Elsie" had multiple fractures, through and through cracks and some slight case of the "crumbles". She is resting comfortably after the first two procedures and awaits only the final glass bedding of the locks. Have a new 4-40 trigger plate screw, Ken will need to "incise" it a bit to match the rest of the frame.
BILL
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/14/07 11:55 PM
Dr. bill ---- the Elsie belongs to me, the butt plate belongs to bill. No matter --- I'm only glad you looked into the action and have done what should have been done, Thank you. Ken
Posted By: Jakearoo Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 12:49 AM
Ken,
I have been out of town for a few days and just saw this post.
Wonderful idea. I would be happy to offer my lawyering skills though I am more of a litigator than a patent attorney. Fortunately, I have friends.
I think your original idea with the 28 should not be shelved so fast. As we all know, the 28 is very popular amoung the have to have it all set. More so I think than the 16.
A gun with all three sets of barrels would be spectacular.
Best, RCC
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 04:14 AM
Here's the real question. How many of you would sell a Lefever you currently own to help finance this new one? That's a tough one.
Posted By: Jakearoo Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 05:38 AM
Ken,
Regarding "The new Lefever."
I do not mean to be presumptious. Many, many know more about this than I. However, never to be particularly shy, my initial thoughts on the project are:
I believe the design should be as simple and straight forward as possible. The more simple the better to actually get the project off the ground. Therefore, extractors and DT should be the original design. However, there is no reason that the design should not be such that, if there is a market for ejectors and single triggers, and someone wants to make them, they should be able to be made to fit.
A true kit gun.
Regarding gauges. I don't really know enough about the specs of the Lefever to say if the XX frame which has been suggested is the best. But, if it is a light frame 20/16 like the Fox built for their guns (and, I also believe Parker used the same frame on different gauges. The smallest used for both the 20 and 16 should be similar.), such a frame should also work fine for a 28. If it is possible to get the firing pins a distance which can be used for all three gauges then that should be the goal. One frame, three possible gauges.
A true kit gun.
Barrels. See if the barrel maker will make barrels available in all three gauges. If not, then your call whether a 20/16 or 20/28. Barrel lengths? Obviously the 28 inch. As to 30 inch or 26 inch for the other, I don't know. Seems that the 30 inch is more popular but I am not sure here. I appreciate a 26 inch and I know some of those folks who shoot grouse, bobwhite, snipe and the like love those short barrels. But certainly at least two gauges and two barrel lengths. Three gauges would be better.
Again, a true kit gun.
It should definitely use the Lefever name but only as a historical reference not to infringe on any trademark/name ownership. More than likely, you can't call it a "Lefever." However, it can probably be labeled "Lefever Patents" or something similar. No reason to not have the name of the creators on there somewhere such as on the barrel flats and water table.
I think financing can be arranged with deposits. Sell the places for specific serial numbers. There are already folks claiming them.
Anyway, a wonderful and exciting project.
I would be happy and honored to help in any way, even if it is just making a deposit on my gun. (Course, I want a cool serial number too.)
Best Regards, R. Craig Clark
Posted By: RMC Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 05:42 AM
Ken, Repeat comment sorry. Any consideration on eliminating the cocking indicators and the exposed [2] set screws in back of the breech head? It would clean up the metal aesthetically and a nicer surface for the engraver. Long trigger guard tang for straight grip stock, or option for it. Randy
Posted By: Larry Leake Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 11:18 AM
Ken, I have sent you an email (Microsoft Word file) with the thread from the "old" Lefever Arms Company Affiliation forum about Lefever frame sizes and firing pin separation. Let me know if you have trouble opening or reading the file.

BTW, the "old" Lefever forum is now closed. The new name for the forum is, obviously enough, "The Lefever Forum" and the new URL for the forum is http://lefeverforum.informe.com/ .
A 29 inch 16 with a four figure finished cost would find an additional buyer in myself.
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 01:29 PM
The "frame size" thread from the old site has been deleted. However, I copied it a couple of weeks ago. I will make any information in it available to the builders. It seems the most common size of XX frame is the one inch pin separation. It is also the smallest pin separation of the known variations in the XX frame. There is no reason to make the separation any smaller in the interests of a lighter gun since it would make it not compatible with original guns. It (the one inch) is the one that should be used since there is some possibility that the new barrels may be fitted to existing XX frame guns, an intriguing possibility, and a chance for the builders to make a little extra money (selling barrel sets). If a customer is interested in making a 28 gauge gun as small and light as possible, he can profile a standard XX frame and reduce the size of the breech balls to suit his own wishes.
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 01:34 PM
Its got to be the exact original, with all stamps and original markings. No cleaning up of the design, the original "Automatic Hammerless" or nothing!!! And separate frames for all gauges, if not, then just the one gauge.
All the best
Posted By: Steve Lawson Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 01:45 PM
Ken, Many Kudos on your your new project! I wish you great success.
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 02:41 PM
Ken, this is fantastic. Thank you.

I also think the ordering of barrel sets alone will be a very attractive option for current Lefever xx frame owners, if the entire gun becomes cost prohibitive. A modern 26 or 28" barrel (I would probably have tubes installed) would be a wonderful companion to my current 30" barrel. Put me down for one of those at the minimum. If the 20ga. barrel mates to the 16 receiver without modifications, that will be a very attractive consideration also.

Kudos.
Posted By: Fred Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 03:16 PM
Inletting a Lefever stock from scratch is not my idea of a simple task. I think it would be very helpful if a good stocker would get aboard this great project, particularly one who would do whatever the customer requests (of course within reason), at a fair price.

You may well know the "right" wood person. FWIW, I happened to visit the Wenig gunstock site yesterday and it looks to me like they could be one good candidate.
Fred is right - you need to offer the whole package, albeit piecemiel, for the concept to work.
Posted By: Bouvier Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 05:14 PM
Many years ago I was involved in a project to adapt high quality stone carving chisels and large wood gouges (1 "+) to pneumatic automotive wrench equipment. The chisels and gouges came from a maker in Italy, the pneumatic coupling was made in California and a "snap on" handle was made by a guy in NY so the tool could be used with a maul or heavy mallet. After doing a set successfully for myself I was besieged by requests to produce them for others. I set up a system, not unlike Ken that had pre-priced the components so that each buyer could deal directly with the component's producers. I am sad to report that I know of only 2, both of which I expedited, out of about 100 orders that got the completed tools. The suppliers, though well meaning had their regular work and would slot this work into their calendar at a first come first served basis. So in some cases it meant waiting a year for the couplings or some of the work from Italy. This was not a business for me, at the time my "business" was carving large stone and wood sculpture, and it was clear that it took someone with a profit motive to get this from one end to the other. For a project like this I would be happy to pay an expert a 10% premium to expedite the process. You do the math ..... on 100 guns it's not a bad paycheck. (keeping in mind that the buyers would still pay the craftsman directly ).

Al
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 05:29 PM
Thanks for the heads up Mr. Al. I intend to do as you suggest re. keeping everything running smoothly But, won't charge our members a handling charge. I simply wanted to make this Lefever project available to the many that would fall into the average income bracket that I live within. Maybe it's a way of saying thanks for the work tht has been sent my way or the kindness that has been shown me by the members ---- who knows or even cares. But, here it is and at this time the ball has started rolling. I fully intend to do my best to get this project off the ground and flying smoothly. After it is all up and running & I'm not needed anymore, I'll back away. The members of this project will be more than able to carry it on. Thanks again Al and all who have graciously offered their thoughts & opinions --- much appreciated ! Please keep sending in your thoughts & questions. Ken
Posted By: Bob Noble Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 06:09 PM
Im going to state my feeling on "The New Lefever".
I fell Dan was one if not the greatest shotgun maker in the US. I love and respect his guns. Im sure Ill get beat up about what I have to say, but im a big ol boy and I can handle it.

Personally I would have a had time paying for a new gun than I would an original one.

If the gun is to be built, lets please respect Dans gun and only make guns like he built. I dont think Dan built a 28 ga. If a 28 ga. is what you want I think Browning would be more your style of gun not a Lefever. Please NO screw in chokes, Dan would have had problems with that. You have two barrels, you dont need screw in chokes! A single trigger is fine (not my style) but please us Dans trigger. If I see another gold 21 trigger im going to get sick. They look like a big gold tooth hanging down. Please no beaver tail forends!!!!!!!!

Then you need to put alot of thought into the gun, and whice type your going to build. I myself like the hammer guns and the Syracuse guns up to 30,000 serial number range. This is the period when all the changes took place.

What are you going to use for an opener? I know of 4 types.
Thumb pull
Thumb push
Pivot (5 different ones of these)
Standard

What are you going to use for cocking? I know of 5 types.
Side cocker
Cocking rod
Two piece
Small hook
Large hook

What are you going to use for ejectors? I know of 4 types.
Forend
Forend/inframe combo
Inframe
Inframe with cutoff switches

I think the standard opener two piece cocker with inframe ejector guns are the best of Dans work. If these guns are built its the gun I would like to see.

Bob

Another thought, lets use orig. engraving patterens. We dont need more Lefevers out there that look like the one on Bass pro.

Bob
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 06:35 PM
Mr. Bob ---- what you would like to see and don't want to see is Exactly what we have planed ! I was thinking about a later period gun using all the refinements Uncle Dan used. The piece won't have bat ears/wings but could have all the refinements of an Olympus grade. The engraving and stock will be up to the owner. Fot myself, I will be copying an original pattern for my own gun. Ken
It's a gun - not a religious Icon. Some of us like antiques, some don't want "someone else's gun" that's not an heirloom. I generally fall in the second group. Why recreate something that's already been done exactly? If there are things to improve, improve them. If there are things they never did, it might be nice if someone did them. I think a 28 would be very cool.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 07:19 PM
We felt that recreating an improved duplicate of an original would (1) allow a man to build a bespoken gun of his own liking (that could be passed down to his son) (2) allow the owner to have total trust in shooting mordern shells in a gun made of the best modern steels with confidence (3) eliminate the wear on those few remaining ol originals and (4) relieve the owner of originals of the fear and anguish of damaging said gun.

This gun isn't for everyone and that is appreciated. No gun starts life as an heirloom but is developed as it's passed down. I'm not encouraging anyone to accept my desire to build their own gun but believe those that share this interest have the right to order what we can offer at a considerable savings. Please keep in mind that this project will also benefit those that would like to have a 4140 steel bbl for their H grade if their firing pin placement will accomidate the 20 & 16 ga. bbl's/ This will also be a source of rerplacement screws as they too will be duplicated to match originals. FWIW, Ken
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 07:58 PM
Right on,Ken!!!...Geo
Posted By: rabbit Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 08:22 PM
I agree with the Vizla man on the subject of the duplication/reproduction/slavish recreation question. I'm pretty tired of hearing "Is it a "real" Parker, Fox, whathaveyou?" I don't care if it says Earle & Hurst on the sideplates. Getting rid of cocking indies--no problem. That isn't the essence of Lefever handling. However, if I can only afford one with laser checkering and acid chiseling I don't want it. My vote for 16/20 ga. if I had the shekels to toss on the blanket. Not sure I do.

jack
Posted By: PeteM Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 08:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Ken Hurst
We felt that recreating an improved duplicate of an original would (1) allow a man to build a bespoken gun of his own liking (that could be passed down to his son) (2) allow the owner to have total trust in shooting modern shells in a gun made of the best modern steels with confidence (3) eliminate the wear on those few remaining old originals and (4) relieve the owner of originals of the fear and anguish of damaging said gun....


Well stated Ken.

I appreciate the significance of using a Lefever. I would hope that is the based on the best design "Uncle Dan" developed, not the 1st.

I like the fact that to a point it is a bespoke gun. I like the fact that I will choose the wood. I like the fact that I will choose the not only the engraving but also the engraver. I like the fact that some of the best in the American gun trade today will have a hand in this. I also am very aware that the men behind this offering have a lot more experience and knowledge than I do. They understand what it will take to bring this gun to market.

I also like the fact that will be certain limits, otherwise the manufacturing costs will run wild. I will happy if it a 20ga or 28ga or 16ga or .... because it will the best that can be produced in America today with a reasonable cost and allows me to have major say regarding the finished appearance.

I want to thank you Ken for coming up with this and moving on with it. As I confirmed with you privately, just let me know where to send the check.



Pete
Posted By: Bob Noble Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 09:25 PM
Vizslas
Some of us Lefever Lover do feel that they are Icons.
If you want a 28 ga. Browning builds them, Lefever didnt. I would never down grade a Lefever this way. If you want a 28ga do it but dot put Dan's name on it.
Bob
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 09:28 PM
Hey Mr. Pete --- where did you get that picture ? I wasn't mad, I was just tired at the end of a long day. Ken
Ken, I have a 20Ga Syracuse DS Grade Lefever that started out as a project gun 25 years ago and thanks to conscientious packers and movers in a relocation from New Orleans to SC, the parts got packed/lost in many safe places never to be found again. Your new Lefever project is very welcomed. I agree with many of the other folks - keep the basic gun simple. I like the idea of double triggers, 16/20Ga 28" barrels with a swamped rib, plain extractors, and manual safety - keep the design in keeping with the Lefever Syracuse gun.

I hope to see you at the upcoming Southern SXS - April 27-29.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 10:11 PM
I'm with Jack and Vizslas. There will always be those that believe only an exact replica is worthy of any name association with an original gun. And then there are those (some of the same crowd) that never accept the replicas and seem to put them in the catagory of cheap imitations. Those guys can always buy originals, no one is twisting their arm to buy a new version.

I think it should be thought of/treated as a new gun that honors the original designers, but is indeed the new maker's gun to change as they see fit.

Maker's can't please everyone. They should please themselves, IMO. If that pleases enough customers for the intent of the makers, it's successful for them. If some purists aren't satisfied, they should make their own gun in their vision.
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 10:31 PM
One poster brought up the possible problem with suppliers that plagued Mr. Lamboy from day one. The result was that, years later, we don't know which variation, good or bad, we own or are contemplating buying. It looks like the only part that the Lefever project could face trouble with is the barrel assembly. If the suppliers of the barrel assemblies is reliable, the rest should fall into place. I don't believe Mr. Lamboy had the receiver situation under control before he addressed step two. It would be hard to believe that the barrel suppliers sunk the ship single handed and, as I remember, that did not happen. However, it could happen in the Lefever project if care is not taken.
Posted By: Bill Hambidge Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 10:35 PM
Ken, see what I mean? You DO need more rest! We want you with us at least until I get my new LeFever! Again I vote for KISS, DT and extractors, money better spent on wood and engraving vice "new fangled thing-a-ma-bobs" that have lots of problems. I'll even live with 28" barrels in a light 20. Easy Does It! BILL
Posted By: Chicago Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 10:36 PM
Ken: Great idea. I like it a lot better than the Fox Sterlingworth route we kicked around a couple of months ago, because it is a new gun. I did speak with most of the trades people you mentioned to me, and I think they would be good folks for the Lefever.

Have you considered posting a list of suggested trades people to use on this project?

I gather you will be available for engraving the Lefever?

Will you post here when you are ready to take deposits?
Posted By: J.B.Patton Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/15/07 11:51 PM
One concern for us folks on the downhill side of our " sporting" lives:

Once all the bugs have been worked out, what is the "ballpark" optimistic delivery time for these new age Lefevers?

Is this truly going to be a "custom" production enterprise?
Custom guns = low volume/ few personnel.

How many receivers/forends /trigger assemblys, can Mr. Earle reliably produce week in and week out? What happens if he catches the flu? Breaks an arm? Has an accident? Will others take over for him during his absence?

Is the barrel source reliable- is there a price break between 50 set/100 sets/ 1000 sets?

One thing that would really sour me on the project is to find out that due to "unanticipated" delays ( i.e. ICD & RBLs) that I may not receive the "promised" finished parts for a llllooooonnngggg time- Now say me and 500 fellas are looking to get these things custom stocked after receiving the metalwork- Only so many custom stockers around- 500 guns is a good number. Let's see, I think I have averaged a two year wait for every gun I've had stocked. Now we have engraving ( it's not like sending it out with a note : I'll need the standard Purdey house style with initials and oh yes - I'll need it back by the end of next week) like was done in merry old England at the turn of the century. Add final finishing/ colors/ nitre/ slow rust bluing/ etc. - what started as an optimistic revival of a classic has now bogged down to a 4 year wait.... I know - patience is a virtue. I plunked down the $$ with CSMC as I knew that Tony could produce guns and SHOULD have the chops to manufacture the product in a timely/ quality fashion- but I have a short attention span and my sense of anticipation is fading........
Ordering custom guns is kinda like going out for a fancy dinner- The hunger and imagined endproduct are always sure to excite- but with slow service/ and long periods between courses, blood sugar levels increase and suppress ones's appetite. After receiving many well intentioned but non ending supply of excuses for delays and apologies, I just want to pay the check and leave....... I want to know that when someone tells me that my purchase will be delivered on a date, that after a reasonable " unanticipated delay" period ( to me on a CNC limited production manufactured item- that would be ~ one month)and the item is not in my hands- My $$ are returned in full with interest ( current passbook savings rate at very least).

I'm gettin too old to order a spruce goose.

Ok - I'll crawl down from my soapbox now...........

- best regards,
JBP
Posted By: steve earle Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 12:20 AM
Hi guys - not real sure how these forums work, and never having time to spend sitting in front of the computer (unless programming a new part...), we'll just have to see if this comes out OK! Since I'm the one who is supposedly (giggle) going to be making the actions, I thought I should come on and start the list of disclaimers, aggravations, annoyances and other "bad" stuff, before we get too far along here. But don't worry - I'll try to not get too carried away...

First, I'd like to thank those of you who have made positive comments on the Wesson #1 actions I have in production now. My biggest problem there - I'm backordered by many months. I'm now working on another batch of 30 receivers, and they are all spoken for!

My exposure to the shotgun world is extremely minimal. This is not due to any particular circumstances; just that I'm mostly a handgun and single-shot guy, and sometimes one needs to pick and choose his hobbies. So in that regard I am approaching this as primarily another machining/fitting/finishing job. As was previously detailed in this topic, my work would end with an in-the-white action, with the exception of the fact that internal parts that needed heat treating would be taken care of before it left my hands. This is how I do the Wesson actions - the outsides are left in the "annealed" state, but the internal lock and firing-pin related parts are all heat treated and ready to go. And incidentally, I do not do my own heat treating - I entrust that to a small aero- and auto-certified shop that has numerous computer-controlled furnaces. There's just no way I could approach their quality and consistency using a torch on a bench!

So maybe the first thing to keep in mind is that I have NEVER seen one of these guns! But heck - it's only a collection of metal parts, and that's where I make my living. Now there are a couple of people (Ken H. looms large here) who are working on educating me in this department - getting me a gun to look at and pieces to play with. And once that happens I will have a much better idea of where things are going. Then there are the umpteen-and-a-half variations, and which one (or ones) to go after, and who gets to make those decisions.

A really big question is just how closely to follow the originals. Making an exact copy is very nearly an impossibility. By exact here, I mean same materials, same methods of fabrication, etc. Do we duplicate the exact original screw threads, and run into the need for expensive custom taps? Do we forge parts or machine them from solid blocks? Is wire EDM work permitted, since it didn't exist back then? I guess my take on it is that I would utilize whatever manufacturing methods are needed to do the job - as good as, if not better. Changes from the originals are almost inevitable, but hopefully in very minor ways, and in ways that would enhance the functioning.

OK, this is getting a bit long for a first post, so I'll let it go and see what happpens!

Steve <><
Posted By: Doug Mann Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 12:29 AM
That was pretty good Steve - considering you were talking to me on the phone while your were typing.
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 12:34 AM
Steve Lamboy used to own the Lefever name ond assoactied legal stuff. Has anyone talked to him, or the new owner, about this?

Steve's Wesson actions are now more expensive than your new quoted price Ken. I sent him him a deposit last week and am eagerly awaiting my Henry action.

It looks like a lot fo folks here are wanting a good double for a low price. Every time I have read "for a fair price," the writer really meant a stupidly low price for them and VERY unfair to the slaves doing the work. The total cost to make this gun go "bang" will be quite a bit higher than the RBL or other guns out there. I am not saying this to be negative or anything. It just looks like a lot of tire-kickers thinking they will get an awesome gun for a fraction of what it costs to make.

THis sounds like it would be a very good gun and I hope to see it built. But this project has a much higher hill to climb than ICD, RBL, or whatever. To put the project in the hands of people who won't pay retail for a gun is a questionable move in my experience. As a project manager with experience managing people in many countries, I know the overwhelming majority of folks have no idea of what is involved to complete any project. So the same people who are not capable of accumalating enough money to buy a complete gun will be responsible for taking pieces and pulling it all together. It is not as easy as it seems.

THis is different than the Wesson actions in an important way. Steve sells bare actions and people know that is what they are. In a couple of years, will these be called "the new Lefever Shotgun" or something? I think they will, and that is a problem.

I was speaking with Darwin Hensley about some things today and he told me that your worst gun is the one that the most people will see. I was puzzled and asked asked him to explain that, and he said that worst gun will make the rounds because it will get sold, some one will buy it because of who built it, they will soon grow tired of it because it is not that great and sell it-the next guy will buy it beacuse of who built it but quickly grow tired of it and sell it-and the next guy......until lots of people have seen it. Look at what is currently happeneing with ICD "kits." The kits (Steve's worst guns) are what many judge the company by, as opposed to th egood guns he did make.

WIth this kit, you are still having to depend on folks who do not know what they are doing to make an actual gun out of it. From the way I understood this, the owner will be responsible fo rfinal fitting and testing. People in this coutry seem to think that is they can assmeble a swing set, then surely they can assemble something as simple a SxS shotgun! McIntosh put it best about wood work on guns-"anyone who has ever made a bird house thinks he can make a gun stock."

What I am getting at is that if this really happens, then a lot of kits will never get built, and many of those that are finished will not be anything most of us would own. These guns will make the rounds and get the publicicty and then people will say, "those Earle/Hurst guns are totally a POS and those two guys are crooks." Your plan puts your reputation in the hands of people of totally unknown quality and ability.

Searcy used to sell both double rifle "kits" and finished double rifle barreld actions in the white. Ask Butch about it. He told me it was a TOTAL disaster. What he had were people who were not capable of accumalting enough money to buy a double rifle trying to do it on the cheap. It was a train wreck. Even his idea of selling the barrelled actions, having the customer stock them and send them back to Butch for regulation was a total flop. He wound up spending so much time on the phone with people who were in over their head and trying to walk them through things that were beyond their capabilities. A good way to spend hours each day that did not produce any income.

THis is just food for thought. Again, I am in no way shape or form trying to rain on a parade here. I am just saying, as an international project manager, former business owner, current business owner, and gunmaker that all angles of this need to be investigated before laying your name on the line. The double gun world is a pretty small one and I would hate to see someone's reputation suffer and them lose money and valuable time due to the actions of others.

I would love to see this actually happen. I would love to have one of these things for myself.
Posted By: Bill Hambidge Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 12:44 AM
Sun Tzu stated "The journey of 10,000 li begins with the first step." In another, but related context, the phrase is "One Day at a Time." I believe the glass is half full NOT half empty. Ken, Go for it! Best, Bill
Posted By: steve earle Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 01:16 AM
Hi again - I shut down the shop for the night so I figured I'd try to improve my typing skills now. Many good insights, there, Marc - especially in regard to pricing and how that would all work, and who would be willing to pay for things. By way of comparison to the Wesson project, let me put in a couple of cents (and maybe sense) here.

I never entered into the Wesson with the idea of doing complete rifles. I CAN hang a barrel; I CAN put on wood; etc - but not economically enough, or anywhere near it, to have a complete gun as a product offering. It's just not my area of expertise, so I choose to stay out of it. Some of the idea here is for guys to be able to take in little bites, what might otherwise be a prohibitive expense. (Could always take out a loan, I suppose. That's little bites.) So a question arises - can a double be produced in multiple disparate steps, the way a lot of nice single-shot rifles have been built over the years?

I've seen some not-very-nice (to my eye) Wessons built up. But I'm not resposible for that, and I can't let thinking about it inhibit my enthusiasm for the next guy on the phone. I could market only beautiful complete rifles, at an exhorbitant price, to someone who did not know how to shoot, and I'd still get the blame for a bad rifle. Where does it end?

At some point people need to be responsible for their own actions and direction, so if you take a nice kit and make an ugly mess out of it - oh well, it's not my fault! But marketing psychology doesn't work that way, unfortunately. Everyone in the supply chain is put to blame when something goes wrong - witnesss the Ford/Firestone fiasco. What REALLY went on there was just stupid people, at many levels in many places.

To make a project foolproof, you have to ensure that no fools buy into it! Any good ideas on how to solve that one?

Steve <><
Posted By: SKB Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 01:36 AM
Steve,
What is the new price for the Wesson action? I am getting anxious for my first one to arrive. The check and FFL should be there tomorrow I would think. I noticed Mark reffered to it as his "Henry".....thats where I'm going with mine too. The .450 # 2 that Henry never built. Should be fun.
Steve
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 01:36 AM
Steve,
I'm with you, don't worry about it. If you have the enthusiasm to make it and it makes you a living, go for it. If you built complete guns, you'd likely eventually be sued for some idiot blowing one up or shooting his foot. Pursue your dreams. This is another cool project and you are obviously well qualified to do it. I'm in awe. I'm qualified to turn a handle, so I have a good appreciation of the work involved, but I couldn't do this project.
Posted By: RGS022 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 01:42 AM
Ken & Steve,
I think what you are planning is a terrific idea. I personally would love to own an original Lefever in mint condition, but I am a gun lover, not a collector. Buying a high condition original would be a mistake for me. Even if I was willing to pay the price, I would have to use it, and the condition would quickly degrade. I would also be limited in the shells I could fire in the rapidly depreciating "mint" shotgun.
A new Lefever made on CNC machinery out of modern steels would be a dreaam come true. With the toerances you will be able to hold, wood and barrels will be truly interchangeable. I am the customer service manager of a company that custom builds vaults, shielding doors, blast doors, attack proof doors and acoustical products for many alphabet agencies and the government as well as every radio, TV, or recording studio around the globe.
I deal with customers every day that have taken delivery of exactly what they specifed and realised they should have taken the experts advice, rather than designing what they thought they wanted. The costs of making their product perform as required are horrendous, and often it is financialy feasable to start over with the product that was recommended originally. From experience, keep it simple. Decide what guage, features and barrel length the majority of potential customers want and stick with your decisions. You may lose a few sales, but the people that want all the inherent qualities of an American Classic made with modern materials will step up to the plate. Some people will say "I would have bought one if such and such was available". But a great many of those people would say thay no matter what you had offered. I would love to be a part of a business venture like this, but I am realistic. The gun business is no place for a gun addict. I had a gunshop for many years, but my profits ended up in my gun safes. I am sure I will finance the purchase of one of these modern Lefevers by selling off some of the profits from 20 years ago. Best of luck to you both. I'll be waiting for news that production has begun.

Bill
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 01:52 AM
Steve-I wish you were in the shop working on the actions (especiallu mine!!!) instead of typing! But since you aren't, glad you chimed in.

Most of my friends are also busienss owners. Any time one of us is thinking about branching out, redirecting focus, or whatever, then we usually bounce ideas off of each other. It is much easier to work out problems when you are in the theoretical, as opposed to operational, phase. I want to be sure every one took me at total face value before. i was just throwing out some ideas to be sure the right heads had thought about them.

THis is also why I pointed out the providing a bare Wesson action is much different than providing a shotgun kit. The skill needed to make a rifle out of the Wesson is much less and different than that required for assembling a double shotgun kit.

I would suggest having a couple of stock sets made up to function test the guns. The kits would be assembled and fit in your shop, then screw the stocks on and shoot for function. Then sell the tested barrelled actions.

I am basing what I have said on personal experience, and from talking to others. An important one of "the others" is Butch Searcy who did the exact same kit program talked about here.

You can import AYA barreled actions in the white. Has anyone priced these? Has anyone looked into other Spanish makers who would import in-the-white sidelock shotguns? What about the Italians? I know some of them will import barreled actions. How much does this cost and what is involved? What about Steve Lamboy-has anyone tried to talk to him to see what went right and what went wrong? His inital busienss model had him selling in-the-white barreled actions. I don't know if he ever was able to do so,excluding the "bag-o'-parts" you can buy from Galazan's. Plus it would be a sound legal move to get the low down on what he controls of Lefever. With any new business move, you must research the competition.

I will close by restating what I said in the first post-I hope this plan really does come through. I would love to buy one of the 20 ga. kits, no matter how rough they are. I am in no way, shape, or form trying to be negative or rain on a parade. I am just doing exactly what my friends and I do when doing anything new in one of our busiensses. I sincerely hope that everyone takes me at face value and understands that asking these questions and making these statements is just appropriate due diligance. Going through these exercises is just normal busienss practice. If I did not care about the people or outcome, I would have kept my mouth shut.
Posted By: Chad Linder Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 02:02 AM
I would think that such a project to be successful should look at the kit cobra and the supporting websites to as a model for success.

One company sells the kit, http://www.factoryfive.com/index.html, and then there are the supporting sites such as this one http://www.ffcobra.com/ that supports itself by providing forums and support for those building and an avenue for tradesman to sell products and skills to complete the cars.

This way those learn what to expect prior to beginning the project from those before them. They have support and encouragement along the way and do not need to re invent the wheel when they run into problems.
Posted By: Bouvier Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 02:28 AM
Ken / Steve

I think you have to take Marc's comments very seriously. It strikes me that this may be a project that has as a first step the goal of building 10 guns for 10 very knowledgeable buyers.

Al
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 02:42 AM
Just a short note to clarify a point ---- THIS IS NOT A KIT !! This is a complete assembled, functioning in the white action & forend. Ready for stocking and engraving if wanted. Ken
Posted By: Doug Mann Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 02:45 AM
I believe that Steve is very aware of what this project might involve.

I also believe that eveyone should have a realistic idea of what this gun should cost - out the door. Well, here's my best guess $7500 minimum with no engraving and that may be somewhat low.

One other item that should be considered by anyone thinking that they can do their own stock work, unless you have considerable experience, a Lefever IS NOT the first gun you should start with. The top tang has as many curves a Marilyn Monroe and it's a bugger.

Stocking is the only part of the gun that I have any real knowledge but I'll bet that the rest of the gun will require the services of a professional also.

In conclusion - you will not be getting a $12,000 gun for $2750 that only happens with the RBL.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 03:19 AM
Doug,

Few words have been typed more true than Lefevers being a real tough stock job for most pros or semi-pros and all beginers. I did two Lefever 20's last year and learned that they were two of the hardest guns that I have done. Right now I am in the middle of a 12 restock job and think that I might loose my mind before I am satisfied. Those trim Lefever wrist are very hard to get just right but they feel so good when done.

The first 50 gunstocks I did were a cake walk, mostly boxlocks with just a few LC Smiths in the mix. In that mix I bet that I scrapped five blanks and should have scrapped another five before I was done. Sometimes the job was done the hard way in hindsight. My first ejector splinter foreend was a real eye opener for details of fitting in three or more directions at one time.

You get one chance to inlet that top tang. Mess up and you do not just move everything back and do it again. If your mistake is noticable to you, then you might as well get another blank and start over. The stocker is his own worst critic.

That said, if you think about it, this might be the perfect job for a precision inletting machine to do most of the rough work. Have the head of the stock, top tang ect., and the sideplates inlet to within .010 on one of the CNC or Hoening machines. Then do the rest by hand. The back end of the stock would be left in the square state so custom deminsions could be done to suit the individual. If one good pattern was made one of the stock duplicators should be able to run a dozen blanks at a time to get us in the ball park. The labor savings and cost saving should be a decent amount.

I have three RBLs on order and if this gets to a real production and delivery state at least one and possible more of them will get cancelled for one or more of these. I am getting to the point in life where I suspect I have more desire than time and intend to enjoy what I can before my big after life garage sale that my family will have after I am gone. I may not spend all my kids inhertance but I intend to spend at least the interest.

Most people who have to farm out the work are going to be near $10,000.00 for a nicely finished gun that will be a real gun of a lifetime. Out of many peoples price range. But then again have they looked at having a "best/bespoken" gun made for them like we are. Go to any maker in England and $10,000.00 is the down payment not the total amount.

People need to think of this as a pay as you go, "bespoken" gun. So if the basic action and barrels cost $4-5-6,000.00 then the rest is done as you can afford to do it. Stock this year, engrave next year, finish the metal the third year. For many this is the only way that they will ever get a gun of their dreams. A few here can afford to drop whatever they wish into a project and to them I say great. To the others, I say Ken has given you a chance for a dream.
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 04:01 AM
16/20, 28-30"bbls., extractors, DT,.
Posted By: Steven M Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 05:38 AM
I contacted a few of the AYA importers regarding guns in the white, but the response was basically that there would be little difference in cost over simply buying a completed gun. The response might be different for an importer purchasing a number of actions at once though.

I haven't been involved in the professional sale of firearms (or kits) but I'd think as long as a clear, honest, budget of about what it would cost to complete a gun like this was provided, the folks that can't handle the total cost should be (appropriately) driven off.

I'd agree that it would be a good idea to identify a reliable company that can do the rough machine inleting to keep the cost somewhat reasonable. I'd also second the suggestion that a list of suggested tradesmen be provided.

Add me to the list of people ready to send a deposit.

Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/16/07 11:46 PM
I have talked to Bob Elliot re. the preposed new gun & he is going to offer all help he can. I wanted to ask the group how they felt about the side plates being steped/rebated. Also, your opinion about a single rib at juncture of fence and action body . Another idea that would require your opinion is the question of a rolled trigger guard. Okay guys, what are your thoughts on these questions ? Thanks, Ken
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/17/07 12:41 AM
I like the rolled trigger guard and definitely the stepped sideplates.

Have you given any thought to selling them with all barrels at very full choke? It would be one less variable for you to worry about and the owner could have it opened to suit their needs. I would think that the fewer variables you had to deal with, the easier it would be to get the project up and running.

What will be the setp of the tangs and trigger guard-straight or pistol? Of course you can modify one to the other, I was just wondering
Posted By: Bob Noble Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/17/07 12:55 AM
Hello
As for the stepped lock plates, Yes but on only B grades or highter. lets not change Dans gun.

Bob
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/17/07 01:03 AM
Marc, First, my plans were to have all bbl's made full+ full when made and to be adjusted as needed to suit client. Steve is such a fool for everything being the best that he will machine the TG out of a single block of steel to fit owners spec's. I once tried to get him to tack weld two pieces of steel together & have them formed for TG and he refused to lower the quality level by doing so.

As timr slides by and things get closer to happening, I'll try and post a list of all the options available and ask members to vote on their preference's. There will have to be a starting poiny for developing a starter gun so that prices can be sestablished and this will go along way towards helping. Remember huys --- this is or could be your gun. All I'm asking is for y'all to help us develop the best one we can that would satify the wants of the majority. Many thanks for your help. Ken
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/17/07 01:07 AM
Bob, My idea wasn't to develop two different frames but to turn out one with all the whistles & bells that the majority wanted. I remember reading somewhere that Uncle Dan was constantly up grading and changing his product for the better. Couldn't this project be accomplished using the same method/approach ? Your opinions encouraged of course. Ken
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/17/07 02:50 AM
Go for it, Ken! I for one am VERY interested in this project. I can't think of a finer gun to resurrect than the Lefever.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/17/07 03:45 AM
The stepped sideplate is not that big of an issue to me. As the vast majority of Lefevers do not have it, I for one would not miss it. Not that I would cry if it was present, but the rest of the gun is what I care about. I even picked out the blank for it tonight. A English crotch blank that has been aging for six years. By the time it get whittled down it should be aged just right. In fact this gun might get built before either of my RBL will be built.
I have no doubt that the new Lefever could be made up to be spectacular. The problem is, the average Lefever man in the crowd here, has been into the lower grades at lower prices. They're going to choke on whatever the New Lefever is going to cost them.
There are some very workable middle grade Lefevers that linger on the dealers shelves for 3995.00(Ivory Beads & Steven Cobbs)
Make a super looking 10k gun, and put "Sterlingworth," on it.
Them Fox boys will buy 'em-up!


Posted By: KY Jon Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/17/07 05:20 AM
A mid grade, 100 year old gun is not a fair comparison to what Ken is thinking about here. I love them but sometimes the better ones need to be left alone and not shot with modern loads. 100 year old wood, 100 year old metal and common sense tells me that most of these old Lefevers should not be shot hard and will not do well with modern factory shells. So if you are not into graded guns why drop $3,000.00 into a closet queen? One per colection to have an example but more than that is not for me.

This would be a safe for modern shells, made from modern metals, with enough room for most custom features that the owner might want and be able to afford. In fact if you spread the process over several years most here could have an Invincible if they so choose. I love Lefevers and shoot them well. What I intend to make is a custom gun to replacce half a dozen in my gunroom. Small bore guns are fun to shoot and this should become a very near all around gun for my shooting needs.
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/17/07 06:13 AM
Will the barrels be safe for steel shot?

Maybe a 12ga, 30-32" waterfowler?
Posted By: Bob Noble Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/17/07 05:04 PM
Ken
You say that your going to build a high grade frame and a low grade frame.
My questions are:
What type of cocking are you going to use?
What kind of ejectors are you going to use?
Will you be able to get the gun without ejectors?
What type of opener are you going to use?
What type of forend latch are you going to use?

Dan used several different types of each of these.
Bob
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/17/07 05:56 PM
Mr. Bob ---- We will only be building a higher grade (Optimus) frame. I will be consulting with Bob Elliot re. the most up to date cocking rods Uncle Dan made. I'm leaning towards the advice offered on this board and the emails I have been receiving which is dbl. triggers and extracters. Ejectors and single trigger will be optional. The break lever used on the late Optimus guns will be used and forend latch is yet to be decided on. All will be revealed in time. I hope to (with help) have a survey where interested parties can vote on what would be most desirable for the basic gun. Please bear with us & continue to give this project lots of thought. We want to produce on gun without having to alter what we have started once the program has been written. Ken
Posted By: RGS022 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/17/07 07:48 PM
After having a stroke in November of '05, my memory is not perfect anymore. Am I wrong, or isn't there someone that can impart a nice Damascus finish onto steel barrels? A copy of a hi-grade Lefever action fit with beautiful wood with modern dimensions, and modern steel barrels finished in a damascus pattern. Now that would be the gun I would have to have. It would be the gun I'd carry for whatever time I have left to follow my setter and pointer through the covers I love.

Bill
Posted By: Bill Janssen Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/17/07 08:49 PM
Ken:

I think this is the best idea since someone came up with sliced bread, go for it and count me in...I'll send a separate e mail.

Are you contemplating a dollshead rib extension or a straight "DS" style? I see nothing wrong with the straight one for all kinds of practical reasons. I prefer a plain triggerguard vs. a rolled edge (from the side a rolled edge looks thick and bulky) or just thread the action 6mm to accept the perfectly-fine Galazan trigger guard readily available in pistol, straight, rolled or not. Re: sideplates, I like the straight look but rebated would be okay, too. Personally, I don't care about cocking indicators, and, like most, am fine with double triggers, extractors, the nominal XX frame size, 20 gauge and the "keep it simple (and light)" model.

This is cool and very exciting. Thanks for your effort.

Bill
Ken,
As the project moves forward, consider including a couple of recommended stockers with profiling machinery. Have the stocker offer the customer the option of providing either fitted block stocks and forearms with or without customer provided wood. The customer could also order the finished stock and forearm to custom stock dimensions. Don't reinvent the wheel with each new Lefever stock and forearm. Standardize as many stock dimensions and options as possible up front.
Sign me up. I had the pen on the RBL order form and backed off because I re-thought the 20ga. For hunting in the west USA I believe the 16ga the perfect blend of firepower, pattern, and weight. I have my eyes on the Chapuis because they do the 16ga but would much prefer an American made to Frog simply for politico.
Posted By: Tim Carney Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/18/07 06:03 PM
Ken,

Sounds good and I'm another likely owner.

Now, eightbore a few pages back noted that a 10 bore of his acquaintance had 1-1/16" between the firing pins. I am far, very far from my references, but if you are using XX frame dimensions, is one inch between firing pins do-able for a 12 gauge? Much as I may sympathize with the 16 borers (!), I'd prefer a light 12 and 20 gauge combination. I shoot a 6lb 4 oz 12 gauge with 1-1/8th oz. cartridges and 3 dram equivalent so I'd guess the dimensions are the key, rather than weight of the gun.

On other aspects, extractors are fine; the only alternative would be ejectors that can be switched to extractors which may add too much to the cost.

Regards, Tim
Posted By: Claybird Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/18/07 07:06 PM
Count me in too, with a very strong preference fo a 16/20 combo with at least 28" (preferably 30") bbls, double triggers and extractors.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/18/07 07:16 PM
Tim, can't say at this moment if a light 12 is possible. At any rate, getting the bbl's made is our main concern at the moment. Needless to say, we won't just use ANY bbl's we can find at a good price. Bbl's will have to be of good quality. One concern we have at the present is the min. amount of bbl's a maker will require to place an order. And, the more bbl lengths and ga. offered runs the cost up considerably. Hopefully in time all will be worked out. Thanks, Ken
Posted By: Jim Legg Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/18/07 07:35 PM
I know I will never be able to afford one anyway, but I'll offer some more free advice. While there are a number of dedicated followers who think there is something special about the 16 gauge, it is not a large number. Every few years various companies try to rekindle interest in them but they usually fade out after a short time. Surely starting with a 12 or 20 gauge would be smarter, 12 first, JMO, of course. I'll repeat my suggestion of 28-30" barrels. In 2007, not many people want 26" barrels. Try to sell a used one and you'll believe it.
Ken, Sounds like a great vision/project. I only wish that I did not order my Fox 16/20 gauge set back in June or I would have been all over this gun. Best of luck and I look forward to following your project's success.
Jim, You may be right about the relative low number of 16 gauge devotees, but I think that the number is right in alignment with the actual potential buyers of this Lefever gun. I could be wrong, but I do not think that Ken is marketing this gun to the masses, only the few fans who would love a gun of this type and made to modern standards, plus don't want to spend ridiculous prices .
Posted By: Glenn Fewless Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/18/07 11:29 PM
Ken:

Well, I have my wood picked out for #4. When do we get the barrels?

Glenn



Posted By: Jakearoo Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 04:38 AM
Glenn,
Very interesting blank. If you don't mind, where did you get it? And, is that punkwood up in the wrist or is there some nice straight grain we can't see? How long is it?
Best, Jake
Posted By: Glenn Fewless Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 05:59 AM
Jake:

The wood belongs to some wonderful folks who cut walnut in northern CA. They don't want to do private sales. I became friends with them and found they had blanks they referred to as Family Grade, meaning you had to be family to get them. I asked them to adopt me. Now I call them Mom and Dad and they send me pictures of wood.

Is this a great country or what?

The blank is only about a year old right now and all I have is this picture and the chance to buy it when it is ripe. I can't even get the measurments as it is buried in a drying pile. Being familiar with their wood I would say that the white wood at the top of the wrist is sap wood. The very dark area right below it is very straight close grained dark pigmented wood. These folk know how to cut wood so I expect there is plenty of room under the sap for the wrist. I believe the blank is clean on the other side.

When this subject came up I decided I needed a fine double gun and asked them if I could have the blank. I just posted the picture to stir the pot a bit. <g>

Regards,
Glenn
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 06:11 AM
Regarding Jim's comment about 16's fading out after a short time, most of the 16 offerings I can think of in recent memory have been clubs (e.g., 870 on a 12 frame, Baikals/Spartans, etc.), with the exception of the Citori 16 built on a scaled frame. Browning has no problem selling those. Browning is also getting lots of advance orders for its BPS 16ga due out this summer. Why? It's built on a 20 frame and it's affordable. The Merkel 1620, another lightweight scaled frame 16, also sells well. There is however, no quality, American-made, scaled frame lightweight 16 sxs on the market right now that I can think of, except for Tony's Foxes, which are Very expensive. Give people a reason to buy a 16, and they will. Discourage them from it, or deliver an inferior product, and they won't.

Given the success of the above examples, and if the price is right, I can't think of a good reason why a 16/20 combo wouldn't do well. Especially one with the cachet of the Lefever name.
Posted By: Steven M Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 07:39 AM
Would I still be interested in one if 16/20 ga. is what's ultimately offered, yes. Would I prefer a light 12, also yes. I know there are some strong 16 ga. proponents but for anyone planning on resale ever I'd think 20 or 12 would be better bets. Really, I'd think it would make the amount of initial order higher too - I know this won't be a high production gun but I can't see single digits being economically feasable.
I'd really think going to 26" barrels would be a bad idea - if only one length will be ordered I'd suggest 28", and if two 28" and 30".

I have no idea on how any this would move the cost and availability of barrels.
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 01:26 PM
I love it-"punk" wood for a "punk" gunamker!!! HOW APPROPRIATE!

HAHAHAHAHA!!!
Originally Posted By: Bob Noble
Vizslas
Some of us Lefever Lover do feel that they are Icons.
If you want a 28 ga. Browning builds them, Lefever didnt. I would never down grade a Lefever this way. If you want a 28ga do it but dot put Dan's name on it.
Bob


Why would you consider a 28 a "downgrade"? Did Dan Lefever or those that built his gun consider them inferior? Or did 28s simply not sell well at that time with the available ammunition. The history of best American gumaking was far from static. If he hadn't died in 1906 do you think he would have gone on making exactly the same guns in exactly the same gauges forever?
P.S. If I do get one of these proposed guns I'll be having a rendering of my favorite Vizsla engraved on it. Uncle Dan never did that, surely he never saw a Vizsla in his lifetime, but I don't think he'd mind.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 04:12 PM
Marklart,
I think the cost of this project gun will get you up near the cost of a CSM Fox. CSM lists the base CE Fox for $13.5k . I'd guess this project would be $10k for a similarly engraved/stocked gun if it were all farmed out. Back to what others have said, if anyone is looking to build a $15k valued gun for $3-5k, they are mistaken.
Posted By: Steven M Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 05:11 PM
Since the XX frame can certainly go to 16 gauge, and possibly to 12, wouldn't it be a bit large for 28?

Chuck, could you provide a breakdown of how you come to $10K?
Posted By: Tim Carney Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 05:32 PM
Ken,

If I've grasped the project so far, you have in mind offering an optimus quality XX action and set of 20 gauge barrels in the white.

You are considering an option for an addition pair of 16 gauge barrels.

Some are interested in a set of 20 gauge chokerifled (Paradox) barrels.

Others would have an extra set of barrels be in 12 gauge.

Some have argued for your supplying a somewhat inlet blank. But, of what quality of wood and do you want to get into hassles over which side of the wood was not up to snuff and why isn't the grain in the wrist straight enough and I want straight rather than pistol grip or Prince of Wales.

I'd stick with action and barrels. Let the barrel maker price extra sets with the extra set price a function of numbers ordered. I imagine you will get a quote that, say, 1-25 would cost so much each; more than 25 to 50 would be so much each, etc. At a certain period of time and with deposits in hand you can, with more confidence let us know what the exact cost of an extra set would be. I can see some wanting two pair of 20 gauge barrels with different chokes, for example; or even two sets of 12 gauge barrels on the same logic (assuming the XX geometry permits fitting 12 gauge barrels).

Might be some better ideas out there...

Best, Tim
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 06:01 PM
Steven,
I guestimated $2.5k for the action, $1k for the barrels, $500 worth of fitting and finishing the barrels and action, $3k for stockwork/checkering, $1k for wood, $2k for engraving. That's $10k. Granted, some can get the work done cheaper and many have a stockblank already, but $2500 for the action and $1000 for barrels is optimistic I think. Some will do their own stockwork and barrel fitting, but I was just tossing out guestimates. I don't think that'll be too far off one way or the other by more than a couple grand if the work is farmed and my estimate of the barrels and action aren't too far off. Actually, $2500 seems a bit low for the action and I think barrels will be closer to $1.5-2k fitted and finishing/casehardening/blueing could run a bit more.

Anyone going into this project that will farm out everything ought to be prepared for something like $10-15k, depending lots of variables.
Posted By: David Furman Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 06:08 PM
I think the stock idea was simply to have a reputable duplicator make a very accurate pattern that could be used for the head of the stock, so that anyone who wished could simply provide their wood and their stock fit numbers, and a couple months later they could get back a relatively finished semi-inlet to fit them--for far less money or work than they'd be into it if they had to either inlet themselves from scratch (sounds like a very expensive/complicated job) or pay someone else to do the same.

Personally, I like this idea. I don't doubt that the total cost of the gun will be approaching that of the "same thing" from elsewhere (i.e. csmc fox, etc), but the fact that 1) I can act as my own general contractor, and 2) I can do the project in stages and do some of the less intensive parts myself (finishing the stock for instance, maybe blueing, etc) IF I choose to, mean that it has extra appeal by offering up both flexibility in timeframe and a potentially significant $ savings.

Besides, even if the total cost is the same it's much easier to justify it to my wife in smaller bites.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 06:40 PM
David,
Actually, the action profile should be fully defined in the software used to make the action. If this were to be a fully intergrated project, that data could be used by someone with a CNC stockmaking machine (e.g., Coles, CSM, etc).

I would expect that some liberties would be taken in the stock inletting area of the action to reduce the stocking difficulties as much as possible, while still retaining the original look as much as practicable. I think I'd consider this project similar to the Ford GT project where they didn't replicate the original GT40, but rather made it a commercially viable product with modern conveniences/enhancements.
Posted By: bbman3 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 06:52 PM
I measured five XX Lefever frames and every one of them were approx. 1 1/32 between center of firing pin holes.Guns weigh from 20 ga. 5lbs 14 ounces to 16 ga. 6 lbs 12 ounces. If the barrels will interchange and can be fitted to original frames you will sell many more sets i believe. If the barrels were put in production there would be some ordered even though the frame and forend would be made later. Just my opinion. Bobby
Posted By: Bob Noble Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 07:10 PM
Vizslas
I just feel Uncle Dans guns are a work of are and we should not change them for something we wont. If he wanted a 28ga he would have built one. I think there are plenty of mess with Lefevers out there with out making more of them. Check out Bass Pro and Jaquas to see some messed with guns.
Bob
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/19/07 07:30 PM
Bob,
Your respect of the Lefever gun is honorable. But, I think you'll agree, this gun is not ever going to be accepted by the purists as a real Lefever. It's logical that it wouldn't be, since the lineage of the Lefever company is not the producer of this product. That doesn't make it lessor of a product, IMO. Just different.

In the objective view that this product is not a real Lefever, the makers of this product wouldn't be "changing" anything, but rather adopting the desireable characteristics of a Lefever, whether mechanical or aesthetics, and incorporating them into "their product". These will be Earle-Hurst actions with Lefever features. I'm sure they'll do their best to honor Dan, but it will be an Earle-Hurst product nonetheless. So, they won't be 'messing with' any original Lefevers.

I'm thrilled they are willing to pursue the project no matter how faithful to the original the outcome.
Posted By: Steven M Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 09:30 AM
Chuck,

Thank you for the cost breakdown. I was really thinking more along the lines of $2000 for the barrels. I'd say this as a mass produced set of Beretta 68X goes for over $900, and a DT10 (which is still a mass produced gun) goes for over $2,000.

Although I think it would be a really good idea to make the barrels so they fit original guns, I'm not terribly concerned about the gun being perfectly original otherwise. I'm more concerned with solid functioning along with a good "canvas" for engraving.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 12:22 PM
Steven,
I'm not too concern how faithful each feature or dimension is reproduced. I think of the gun as another great effort of an American made modern sxs gun.

The dolls head is a bit of a conumdrum on this gun, IMO. The design has an adjustable hinge to take up/quickly fit barrels yet the dolls head could limit the adjustment, especially since the expectation of high quality is the closeness of fit. The dolls head could, theoretically, be fit extremely close with CNC machining. This could negate the benefit of an adjustable hinge. The dolls head is a cool looking feature, but could be an obstacle to interchangeability of barrles made by a different maker.
Posted By: PeteM Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 01:07 PM
Steven M,

As I understand it, the barrels are the question at moment. Mr Ken refuses to use anything but the best barrels they can acquire within reason. Once the barrels are settled then a pricing for the fitting can be developed.

I do believe Chuck is close to reality for the over all costs. The engraving could run much higher if you start looking for gold inlays, bulino, etc. Or you go for a simple border and leave it at that. If funds got tight, I would invest in the wood and stock work now. The gun can be engraved much later.

I also agree with Doug Mann about the stocking. I have a Lefever G that is a project gun. I had some nice Black Walnut turned for a stock. The stocker did a nice job. The final inletting is all needle file work, with very light touches of razor sharp chisels. Enough to leave me shaking after even short sessions. It has convinced me that I ain't going to grow up an become a stock maker.

Steve Earle will provide an action to be envied, I am sure. He is driven to perfection in his work.

I have contacted Cecil Fredi about some wood. He sent me photos of 15 blanks to look over. The nice thing is knowing I have plenty of time to choose and to save for the next steps.

Pete
Posted By: oganza Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 01:22 PM
If the barrel sets are in the $1500 range, then this company may provide a viable alternative. They can produce a barrel set milled completly out of a single piece of tool steel. I believe it was 1040, but the type of steel is not on their site anymore. They produced some o/u barrels for the John Wilkes company a few years ago. I talked to them in 2004 and o/u barrel sets in quantity were in the $1000 range. They would need a 3D model of the barrel for a quote. They should be able to keep tolerance on the barrel sets to 0.0005 - 0.001 for the fitting surfaces. This would probably allow all barrels to be exchanged with all receivers and eliminate most if not all hand fitting.
http://www.alphamachining.com/products_shotgun.html

I am willing to build the 3D model if you need someone to do that for you. I was a mechanical engineer for 10 years, so the model wouldn't be difficult for me, if I can get a barrel set to measure. I have access to ProEngineer and Catia solid model programs.

Let me know if I can help.
Posted By: Bill Janssen Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 01:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Chuck H
The dolls head is a bit of a conumdrum on this gun, IMO. The design has an adjustable hinge to take up/quickly fit barrels yet the dolls head could limit the adjustment, especially since the expectation of high quality is the closeness of fit. The dolls head could, theoretically, be fit extremely close with CNC machining. This could negate the benefit of an adjustable hinge. The dolls head is a cool looking feature, but could be an obstacle to interchangeability of barrles made by a different maker.


This is a great point, Chuck. Are there any positives (other than cosmetic) to the dollshead? I had a nice discussion with Ken yesterday and did my best to present the anti-dollshead, pro "DS-style rib extension" argument (also doing away with the cocking indicators per the DS/I grades). It's my impression these issues are still on the table.

Bill
Posted By: dblfever Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 02:47 PM
I once had the chance to purchase a upgraded DS 20ga for a fairly reasonable sum and the gun was really fairly well done. The deciding factors were the lack off the dolls head and the cocking indicators, a upgraded DS is still a DS and I think it would be a big mistake to leave these features off.
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 03:04 PM
Just a few points, some of which I and other posters raised earlier but later posters obviously have not digested the entire thread. 1. No 98% finished barrel set is going to be adaptable to a large percentage of original guns, not only because of size, but because of cocking mechanisms and other mechanical differences. The dream of fitting old guns with the new barrels is mostly just that, a dream. 2. Tim, one of the posters on the "Frame Size" thread on the old Lefever site claimed to have seen a 12 gauge on a XX frame. Only problem is that we don't know if he did see one and we don't know whether the XX frame he may have seen was a standard 1" frame or one of the "non standard" 1 1/16" frames. The centers of two 12 gauge primers with the rims of the shells touching are approximately 7/8", so a very marginal 12 gauge gun could be made on an XX standard frame, but the tubes would have to share part of a chamber wall, not a common way to build a shotgun, but not impossible. Actually, from my coarse measurements, the total chamber wall for the two 12 gauge barrels on a 1" frame seems to be about .250". Half of that would not be sufficient, but a shared wall of .025 would probably be OK. 3. Steven M., your "too large" 28 gauge on an XX Frame is the same dimension as an 0 Frame 28 Gauge Parker, not an unattractive gun. The same size Lefever frame would be much more attractive because of the swamped in front end which the 0 Frame Parker does not share (to the same extent). 4. BBMan2, the "Frame Size" thread on the old Lefever site did not uncover any of the firing pin dimensions you mentioned (1 1/32"). All XX frames mentioned on that thread were 1" except one that was claimed to have been 1 1/16". I don't know what to think since I did not measure any other than my own gun. The conclusion that was probably reached on that thread was that 1" was the standard. Now I am not so sure unless your ruler is defective. 5. VineferaVizslas, everyone at Lefever that I am aware of was a setter man. Fred Howlett had English Setters, John Nichols had Gordons and Irish Setters, and Jacob Glahn also had Gordons. I can't remember what Dan hunted over, but judging from the others' preferences, I would assume Uncle Dan was a setter man also. I will continue research on this important aspect of the new Lefever project. Bill Murphy
Posted By: Jakearoo Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 03:32 PM
Peter M said: "If funds got tight, I would invest in the wood and stock work now. The gun can be engraved much later."
Others had have also mentioned this.
My question is; Since the guns will be produced in the white, would they need to be case hardened to shoot? Can they be shot in the white till engraved and then hardened? Or, would they have to be hardened to shoot, then annealed and engraved and re-hardened?
Jake
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 03:52 PM
Mornin' Mr. Craig, Gun would have to be cased. If to be later engraved, it would have to be annealed first. Ken

Mr Eightbore, Have received your finished P. butt plate & it waits your arrival. Also, Please call me as I have something I'd like to talk over with you. Ken
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 03:55 PM
Ken,
I didn't see where you guys discussed reciever metals. But, would this gun be 4140?
Posted By: PeteM Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 04:25 PM
Originally Posted By: eightbore
...5. VineferaVizslas, everyone at Lefever that I am aware of was a setter man. Fred Howlett had English Setters, John Nichols had Gordons and Irish Setters, and Jacob Glahn also had Gordons. I can't remember what Dan hunted over, but judging from the others' preferences, I would assume Uncle Dan was a setter man also. I will continue research on this important aspect of the new Lefever project. Bill Murphy


Definitely setter heavy.



Pete
Posted By: RGS022 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 04:31 PM
I asked in a previous reply if my memory is faulty since the stroke, or is there someone out there that can make modern steel barrels look like Damascus. I hate to think I dreamed it up. But, you never know after a cerebral event.

Bill
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 04:59 PM
Mr. Chick, the external metal (frame, forend & TG) will be 8620. All internal parts will use the best steel available for their particular need. IE --- triggers, sears and hammer will be best grade D2 & etc. for different parts. I spoke with Steve E. while ago and he said he would try to find time to check in for a short post today. He works the hours I do and seven days a week --- pleasure time is short for him too. Ken
Posted By: Norm Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 05:38 PM
RGS - this what you're remembering?

http://www.damasteel.biz

I think if you check applications, you'll find what you're recalling.

Strokes can be scary things. Hope you're recovering well from yours. All the best.
Posted By: RGS022 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 07:07 PM
Norm,
Thanks for the information. That does not seem like I remember. I thought it was a coating that was applied, then a chemical was used to etch a damascus like design onto the barrels. Then everything was nuetralized and finished to your preference. My stroke was about the most frightening thing I could have imagined. Thankfully, I recovered completely in less than 6 months. I have no paralysis, speech problems or weakness. I returned to work in 4 months. I had a pretty massive stroke that hit my temporal lobe on the right side. The only thing I am left with is the knowledge that I have 95% chance for a second stroke, that will leave kill me if I am lucky, or leave me a vegatable if I am not.

Bill
Posted By: PeteM Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 07:41 PM
RGS,

Your memory is working just fine. There was an article in "The American Rifleman" April 1976 about it. I have also seen very bad attempts using paint.

Pete
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 07:53 PM
Ken,
From what I gather, 8620 is an excellent choice, probably not appreciated by most. It can be core hardened up to 135 ksi (excellent strength) and casehardened together with that core hardening. So, core strength can be the same as a 4000 series steel reciever and colored per vintage guns. Also, the high chromium and nickel content give it higher corrosion resistance than traditional vintage mild steel recievers.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 08:02 PM
Thanks for the info Chuck. It will help other realize that we are very serious about using only the finest steels available for each part. Ken
Posted By: RGS022 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 08:42 PM
PeteM,
You Sir have made my day. I was sure I had read about this process somewhere. I actually tried something back in the early 90's with cold rolled steel sheets. By brushing patterns on with a light grease, then spraying on a strong degreaser containing lye, I was able to produce erratic patterns that resembled damascus steel after allowing enough time for the steel to react with the lye. Once cleaned and oiled it looked pretty good. I would have hoped to perfect the process, but a divorce and loss of everything I owned back then made me froget about the idea. I will start experimenting again.

Bill
Posted By: Jakearoo Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 09:53 PM
Goodness Bill,
A stoke, divorce and loss of everything you own. Wew. Good you are still kicking and trying to figure out how to make damascus out of cold steel.
More power to ya. Hi on!
Best, Jake
Posted By: RGS022 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 10:35 PM
Jakearoo, The stroke was caused by two holes in the Atrial septum in my heart allowing a piece of plaque no larger than a pinhead to go straight to my brain. Two weeks after returning to work from the stroke, I had to have open heart surgery to repair the birth defects. While they were in there, the surgeon performed six coronary artery bypasees just to avoid as many future problems as possible. It took me seven weeks to get back to work after that. I dont want to make damascus out of steel, just want to duplicate the look of fine damascus. I think it can be done with some experimentation.

Bill
Posted By: jerry6stl Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/20/07 11:59 PM
This seems like a great idea, and I do like Lefevers.

Whoever manages this project will have his hands full. Coordinating multiple craftsman and maintaining the quality control will be a real task. The end product should be worth all the efforts.
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 01:15 AM
Yea, but look at that team he's putting together!!!
All the best
Posted By: cgr50 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 02:43 AM
I spoke with the guys over at alpha machining about a barrel project for a gun my brother and I are designing. The guy want lots of money for tooling for a specific barrel, approx $50,000 to $100,000. There are not a lot of barrel options out there for low volume guns. If anybody has an idea on how to make good barrels cheap please let me know.
Posted By: Jerry V Lape Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 05:29 AM
Without knowing the volume of barrels this project will require, you might want to talk to Ed Rayl who custom makes barrels currently for muzzleloading firearms. These would just be the tubes properly dimensioned on the interior. He currently works in chrome moly for his rifle barrels. Last rifle barrel I got cost a little less than three hundred dollars which included a lot of grinding to give it the octagonal swamped exterior which the shotgun would not require.
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 02:11 PM
I previously posted that 1" seems to be the standard for XX Lefever frames because of the response I received on the "Frame size" thread on the old Lefever forum. On rereading the thread, I find that more than one pin separation measurement for the XX frame was 1 1/16". Obviously, 1 1/16 is a dimension that will cover 20 to 12 with the possibility to make an acceptable 28 gauge. I think the 1" pin separation is also acceptable for 28 to 12 with the 12 being marginal. If the search is for the "Lefever Standard" for XX frames, I think it is a tossup between the 1" and the 1 1/16", with the 1 1/16" being easier to work with for the three larger gauges. Because of the difficulty of finding barrel suppliers at the proper price point, I would recommend that the builders standardize pin center placement since that is one dimension that cannot be "adjusted" once the unfinished barrel sets reach our shores. If customers want a slim waisted 28 gauge, the breech balls can be trimmed on a heavier receiver, but metal cannot be easily added to make a 12 gauge on a too small receiver. In my opinion, a trim, attractive 28 gauge can be made on a receiver with a 1 1/16" pin separation if the breech balls are trimmed to be in proper proportion. If it is found that a light 12 cannot be constucted on a receiver with a 1" pin separation, (which I think it can be) standardization at a 1 1/16" pin separation would be acceptable for use in all gauges from 12 to 28 gauge. Bill Murphy
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 03:00 PM
I was wondering if the fences could be left a little meaty to give more room for the owner to shape things like they wanted? We all have different things we like to see on arcaded fences, and leaving a little extra metal will (very slightly) cut down on machinging and give the owner more room for personalization. Just a thought
Jerry V Lapen commented about blackpowder rifle barrels made by Ed Rayl. Ed Rayl is one of the top blackpowder barrel makers for rifles and front end loader shotguns. Two years ago, I saw a couple of completed shotgun barrel assemblies in the white made up by Mr. Rayl. If I remember correctly, the pricing was in the $300 range (front end loader). From my limited experience with black powder firearms, it's a low volumn cottage industry - similiar to our Lefever project.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 04:23 PM
Marc, The frame will be made by CNC program. Due to this fact, it would be very expensive to alter the program and run a new set-up for one or even a few frames. The fixtures for holding parts have to be made to exact diamentions so that all parts are guarenteed to be the same. If the part is altered from program, it wouldn't fit the holding fixture so new fixtures would have to be also built. Ken
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 04:37 PM
Ken,
Just a couple questions that may have already been asked and answered.

1) Will the actions be finished? That is, will they be filed and polished after machining?

2) Will the action be sold as a barreled action or without barrels?
Posted By: J.B.Patton Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 04:48 PM
How about including a cheap CNC "carved" dummy stock & forearm, made out of some inexpensive material- already inlet ~ 95% with set dimensions say 14 3/4" X 1 1/2" X 2 1/2 "?

This could then be taken to be pantagraphed with the buyer's own stock blank - bondo could be used to build up / or dummy stock could be sanded down prior to replication. Would sure bring down the cost of having to have a stock built from the ground up.

- JBP

Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 05:05 PM
J.B., that's a good idea, but only has to be done for the buyers that aren't satisfied to use the "dedicated" stockmakers that agree to cooperate in the "project". Those dedicated stockmakers would have access to fully inletted dummy stocks supplied by the makers. This is really starting to sound like a piece of cake.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 05:06 PM
It sounds like there could be a whole other biz on just the stockwork alone.

If a fellow were to spend a little time with some wood (maybe an old Lefever stock or LC stock) and Devcon, the head pattern could be made. Once that's done, the rest is cake.
Posted By: Glenn Fewless Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 06:11 PM
Originally Posted By: Chuck H
Ken,
Just a couple questions that may have already been asked and answered.

1) Will the actions be finished? That is, will they be filed and polished after machining?

2) Will the action be sold as a barreled action or without barrels?



Chuck:

It is my understanding that the barrels and action will be sent to a metalsmith for fitting and finish, chambering and the like before being sent to its new home.

Glenn
Posted By: john dozier Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 11:29 PM
Maestro Ken, You might look to Russia for bbl work. The folks in Tula seem to not only know their business but might be amenable to short runs. Geno of this board may be able to check into this. Tula appears to be the Russian equivalent of St. Etienne or Suhl. Just a thought. Dr. Dozier sends with his uusual high regards. This is a worthwhile and comples projec, but why Lefever and not for example Baker.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/21/07 11:36 PM
Thanks Glenn,
That makes this more attractive to me by a bunch.
Posted By: nitrofever Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 01:07 AM
How about barrels made in USA by American craftsmen.... Hint: It's already in the works....
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 05:26 AM
For Ken and Steve,
When I visited the CSM factory with Milt, Tony showed us that the RBL barrels were machined to final fit for the actions while registering in a fixture on the hinge.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 01:48 PM
Chuck and Nitrofever --- thanks for the great info. Will certainly check it out. Ken
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 03:58 PM
Okay guys, question ... I have been thinking of a hard chromed bore which should be available. The bbl's however would be monoblocked. Would this be to objectionable if the peice is really good ? They would be light and of good quality. This is still in the research stage. Ken
Posted By: Bill Hambidge Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 04:09 PM
Ken, mono-blocing will simplify the manufacturing/cost and give the engraver another site(the join) to display their skills. Further chrome plated bores make steel shot an option and plastic wad clean up a snap. Yes to Monoblocking. Best, Dr. BILL
Posted By: Bouvier Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 04:16 PM
Ken:

With the quality you are going for I would have no objection. In fact it would give me more flexibility.

Al
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 04:52 PM
Chrome plated bores are a nightmare to the guys who can't leave the cones and chokes alone. I am a little suspicious of those who claim that steel shot is OK in chrome plated bores. Is that true? I can't believe that chrome plating prevents the "pushing" of the metal at the choke area, especially if the choke is .035 to .040. What is the true story?
Hard chromed barrel tubes/monoblocking may be the way to go. Question - what barrel lengths and choke combinations are being considered. It would be difficult to grind out an existing tight chromed choke to open up; example, open a full choke to Skeet 1.

Possibly the initial offering could be 28 inch barrels with I.C. and Mod only - keep it simple! Another thought - would the group consider Briley chokes similar to the 28 inch RBL barrels?

If the barrel tubes are TIG welded to the monoblock, the seam would virtually disappear.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 05:09 PM
Ken,
I think the concerns about using steel shot are well founded. In SD, they require non-tox on public land for upland (phez,grouse,huns, etc.) hunting now. I'm sure the situation on use of lead is going to get more restrictive rather than less, in the future. I think non-tox requirements are on the horizon all over the place.

If a guy gets $10-15k invested in a gun, he should be assured of it's viability as a hunting gun for decades. No sense creating a gun that might have very limited or no utility value, shortly down the road. I think some of these guys would like to be able to pass along a hunting gun that their offspring could use.

So, your suggestion of hardchrome (or possibly Ti-Nitride, like the RBL) plated bores is sensible to me.

Mono-blocked barrels would be ok by me, IF they don't rollmark the joint like many inexpensive guns. You may also consider looking into having the barrels either Electron Beam or Laser welded into the monoblock and then the weld normalized and blended. The filler metal would likely have to be a raised lip on the monoblock or the barrel, or could be a third piece that is added. I'm no weld expert, so you should seek someone more versed in this area. But, I might prefer a EB or laser welded mono-block to a soldered one for this gun. BTW, I did a sleeving job where I TIG welded the barrels to the "mono-block".
Posted By: oganza Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 05:09 PM
I think the chrome merely protects the steel at the cones and front part of the barrel from wear by the steel shot. I don't think tightly choked chrome plated barrels would be any safer than non plated for steel shot. (note that most modern choke tubes say "not for steel" on the full choke tubes).
Chrome lining is usually a cheaper method of getting a smooth polished surface on the inside of the barrel. The chrome will self level to a smooth finish without additional operations, this saves additional polishing that would be required to polish the bores smooth in an unplated barrel.
Posted By: Bill Hambidge Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 05:59 PM
As I understand it, chrome plated bores are no more safe from "bridging" than un-plated bores. The chrome does protect from abrasion by the steel. Bridging is the cause of barrel bulges in tightly choked guns. Steel shot does not give whereas lead, when it "bridges" does, hence no buldge. Best, Dr. BILL
Posted By: Glenn Fewless Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 06:46 PM
Gentlemens:

I know that the monoblock is not the traditional construction method, but from a purely mechanical stand point it makes good sense and has to be less expensive to manufacture. All things considered I believe the gun would be the better for it. As for the join one option would be to laser weld it. The HAZ (heat affected zone) is so small with this process that there would be no significant effect on the metallurgy, or the solder that holds the tubes in the block. The joint would simply disappear after striking and polishing.

Besides, Mr. Hurst hates engraving barrels...

I have no opinion either way with the chrome. It would take away the option of custom chokes and chambers.

Glenn
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 06:51 PM
For your onfo; I just got off the phone with Buck Hamlen ( Lefever restoration expert). He said that after measuring a large number of light weight guns in his shop that 1.055" between firing pins would be sufficient for 12 thru 20 ga. guns. He also suggested a sear pin as in later mod's over screws for holding sears. This would further lessen the cost and be superior in his opinion. Buck also strongly felt that a straight rib extension would also save a great deal of cost over a dolls head rib extension and was every bit as strong.

In so far as single triggers go, Buck said that the Infallable single trigger was the best available other than a Win. 21 trigger. However, he felt for those shooting sporting clays, the double trigger to be the best bet.

Regarding chrome plating bbl's. Buck pointed out ( as you Eightbore) that a bbl shipped with full and full chokes couldn't practically be altered --- forcing cones included. Perhaps the tubes should be furnished without the plating until chokes and forcing cones were finished. Accurate Plating in Fla. could plate the bores "after" this finish work is done. How about some opinions here guys ???

Buck and I also discussed the use of one ejestor frame for both ejector and extracter bbl;s in order to keep cost to clients down. His opinion was that this was easily done by making on cut a small amount wider. Guess this is another way to go. Regarding other areas of the Lefever, Buck didn't feel the need for further changes except for tightening the tolerances. His opinion was that a "New Lefever" built with the best modern steels, machining and heat treatment would be far stronger and superior to the original guns. When asked about monoblock bbl's, he didn't like them & prefered dovetail bbl's. for their looks only. I understand this as I don't like the look either.

All for now boys, more to come as I get it. Ken
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 07:10 PM
Glenn,
The welding of the tubes into the monoblock would be in lieu of solder, not in combination with solder. Solder would contaminate the weld.

The weld width of an EB or laser weld is very narrow and once normalized and blended, neither the owner nor maybe even an engraver would be the wiser unless bright blueing is done. TC Contenders have either an EB or laser weld holding the lump on the barrels. Likely, the larger framed gun they make also used this process.

The advantage of the monoblock system is that the monoblock could/should be made by the reciever makers and control of the barrel fit is more easily assured.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 07:31 PM
Excelent point Mr. chuck !! More ideas and info to ponder towards making up of a gun incorparating an old classic with new modern improvements. I will pursue this ides with Mr. Steve --- I know he can do it. Will also have to present this idea along with the other info to the bbl makers while getting del. , min orders and cost established. Thanks again. Ken
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 08:05 PM
Ken,
It's unlikely you'd be able to weld in the area between the barrels (about 1/4" or so), but I don't believe that would an issue at all as far and strength goes. Remember, you're replacing solder which has relatively low strength.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 08:20 PM
Mr. Chuck ---- My thought was to possibly have the mono blocks made here by Steve, forward same to bbl maker and have bbl's welded to mono block there. Maker would then polish welds down, regulate and fit ribs before sending to us. What do you think ? Ken
Posted By: Bill Hambidge Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 10:25 PM
Ken, just to be the iconoclast/philistine, what about chrome lined bore with loooong forcing cones built in and Teague/Briley type long, square threaded, choke tubes fom the factory. Decreases cost if monbloc is TIG/lazer welded and decreases finishing costs for the barrels. Further with choke tubes, barrel length is much simpler. Just random thoughts since we are "dreaming". BILL
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 11:31 PM
I see no reason for chrome bores unless the barrel maker charges less for them. As far as no tox requirements, guys who shoot five figure guns don't shoot steel, they shoot no tox that is perfectly compatible with old guns and soft barrels. If monobloc is chosen, I'm sure that it will be fairly seamless and will not require an ugly engraved seam. Ken's idea of a U.S. manufactured monobloc with final barrel and rib construction somewhere else seems to be a very novel and workable idea. That would take the worry about lug and doll's head fit out of the "import" equation. That is some of what sunk the ICD ship.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 11:37 PM
Ken,
Your concept sounds viable. The monoblock concept would save a bunch of handwork if the monoblock was machined/ground to fit the reciever breachface.

On a segment of Shotgun Journal, they showed Bruce watching a gunmaker fit a monoblock to a O/U prior to tube installation. I don't know if the tubes went into stepped holes with no barrel coming all the way to the breachface, or not. Something to think about. From structual standpoint, there's no reason to extend the tubes all the way to the breachface, especially if soldering is replaced with welding. The problems with not extending (stepped hole) the tubes all the way to the breachface include close tolerance of the monoblock hole depth and barrel steps along with a potential to get moisture/crud in any gap. On my sleeving job, I welded the breachface of the tubes to the monoblock.
OK, is this Lefever going the way of the Parker over under. Just a name ?? Let's let it be a Lefever with the stepped sideplates, the in frame ejectors, the cocking indicators, the dolls head, and heaven forbid the chrome this or that, the plug in chokes, and all that other stuff that is not Lefever. Get the 28 gauge down the road and don't think of a Lefever 22 cal. long rifle double.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 11:43 PM
Dr. Bill, Buck Hamlen agrees with you re. forcing cones --- he suggested anywhere from two to four inch cones. He also said I might quote him on answers to questions I asked. If bbl's are chromed, they will play hell with carbide cutters used to shorten bbl and thread for choke tubes. Seems there hasb't been any call for replaceable choke tubes.

Eightbore --- Steve could with no problem make the mono block and fit it to the action as he has no problems working in the ten thou's. As time passes, this will be given more thought and discussed with him.

Thanks again guys --- keep those ideas coming in. Ken
Posted By: PeteM Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/22/07 11:45 PM
Well, I had Cecil Fredi send me some photos. He swamped me with great looking wood. Here is the blank I choose. Mr. Ken suggested I post it here.



Pete
Posted By: Chris Schotz Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 12:27 AM
I for onr would like to see the Dolls Head extension. This is a Lefever trademark! If we are talking cnc and all this modern equipment, it shouldn't be any more difficult to do this the Lefever way. Just my 2cents.
Chris
Posted By: tanky Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 12:42 AM
If you decide on the mono block route of barrel construction then it seems to me that just about any reasonable barrel length could be offered. As far as Chrome bores go,that is something that could be done later if some one wanted it. With the wads available in steel shot loads today you only need to be concerned about the choke. There are available very good steel shot chokes if the barrels can take screw in chokes. If your choke deforms simply replace it with a new one. I believe that the Parker repos were mono blocked with a welded joint and they look very good.
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 01:23 AM
As long as the receiver and monobloc were precision machined by the "makers", it would make little difference if the barrel maker left a quarter of an inch of the breech of the tube protruding from the monobloc when the monobloc was shipped back to the U.S. The "makers" would just trim it off when fitting the monobloc to the pertinent receiver. Personally, I don't know whether tubes in normal monoblocs go all the way to the breech or fit on steps. It would seem like fitting them on steps would be a nightmare that would require messy adjustments. If I were to design them, they would go all the way to the breech to be trimmed. We can ask the Brits, we can ask Kirk Merrington, or we can ask Rich Cole about the Beretta procedure. We may get three different answers, but we will know more than before we asked.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 01:32 AM
That's it boys -- keep those ideas and opinions coming, you are helping build this gun. Ken
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 01:40 AM
Murph,
I think we'll find that the 'normal' process is to have the tube extend thru the monoblock. I think it can be made to work fairly easily either way. Protruding to the breach requires second op to clean up the face, tubing to a step preserves the face but requires holding a close tolerance when machining of the stepped hole depth and the length of the turned barrel tube and requires something to be done with the potential for moisture penetration in the gap (if not soldered). Soldering has some advantages.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 02:28 AM
I like the dolls head rib and would be sad to see it dropped. Sad but not heart broken. But if you are using CNC I would like a dolls head rib if possible. They just look so right on a fine gun. Just like paper hulls look right in a double gun.

The chrome bores are one thing that I do not want or need. In fact, that would almost kill it for me. I have never liked them even though I rarely change choke or have the forcing cones reamed. Mono block barrels can be made to very high standards and if used here would I am sure be a perfect as possilbe.

Soulds like you are heading for a reciever that could range from 12-16-20 bore with a possible 28 barrel set. That is about as flexible gun platform as you could have. Wood selected, first thousand saved, interest getting higher all the time.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 03:09 AM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a proponent of ridding the gun of the dolls head, I just see it as another manufacturing hurdle. The monoblock may make it more viable to produce with the dolls head. I agree, it is part of the Lefever 'look' to have it, just like a paper hull. Now what ever happened to that 16ga paper hull? We'll need 20 papers and maybe 28's, if it survives the pro/con debate.
Posted By: Chicago Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 03:27 AM
The level of knowledge on this site blows me away........I am really looking forward to this double.
Posted By: Glenn Fewless Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 03:42 AM
Chuck:

I'm thinking 16 gauge. The trouble with a 20 is that you have to shoot yellow shells. I just couldn't live like that. You are right about the paper though. It might be worth getting a light 12 just to smell the paper hulls.


I see the monoblock as a very sound approach from a practical standpoint. The idea of having the barrels built a long way from home and shipped here to mate with the action seems fraught with potential problems. At least with the monoblock approach one could be reasonably sure that the barrels will mate properly with the actions. Especially so if a doll's head is desired.

There seems to be a large spread of opinion as to what liberties should be taken with Mr. Lefever's designs. From absolute true replication on up. I myself don't have much use for chrome bores and choke tubes, but I don't have any problem with invisible monoblock construction. Or even visible, for that matter. I reckon I lean more toward the true replication camp, modified to allow sensible alternatives in manufacturing techniques.

Regards to all,

Glenn
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 04:10 AM
I assume the gun will have the Lefever adjusting screw? If so, would that help alleviate the need for the doll's head, if that became a problem to manufacture? Personally, I say keep the doll's head if at all possible. Lefever's are as highly regarded as they are not just for their aesthetics and handling, but for their ingenious engineering. Their strength and functionality are one of their main selling points. With that in mind, chrome-lined bores and tubes seem superfluous and somewhat irrelevant. Build the gun the right way and there will be no need for them.

For the record, I'm not a big fan of the stepped side plates either. Long, thin barrels, splinter, scaled frame with 16/20 barrels, and Lefever engineering. Voila! You can't go wrong with a formula like that. Add the 12b later after it takes off.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 04:14 AM
One monoblock process I explored was to thread the monoblock and barrels together. This is definitely a machinists thought process (that's me). No heat, no distortion, no solder line, rifle like proven construction. This would allow the monoblock and the barrel tubes to be mated here in the states (maybe by Steve). So, you'd have a all machined barreled action assembly less the barrel spacers and ribs. A neat concept from a machinist's perspective.
Posted By: Bob Noble Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 06:01 AM
OK, is this Lefever going the way of the Parker over under. Just a name ?? Let's let it be a Lefever with the stepped sideplates, the in frame ejectors, the cocking indicators, the dolls head, and heaven forbid the chrome this or that, the plug in chokes, and all that other stuff that is not Lefever. Get the 28 gauge down the road and don't think of a Lefever 22 cal. long rifle double.

There you go Daryl!
Ill take mine with screw in chokes, in 28 ga. with a model 21 trigger, and a beaver tail forend! Oh one more thing, I would like one of those shock absorer recoil pad! Will You be offering one of those como stocks like Remington?

Ive been on here days ago saying that and just got beat down. I say if your going to build it build it like Dan built it. If your not then its just another gun, or a butcher job of Dan's work.

Bob
Posted By: Jakearoo Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 06:21 AM
I must say, all good points. All very good. Jake
Posted By: Tim Carney Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 07:33 AM
Ken,

Haven't seen anything on possible improvements to the action itself, but let me throw into the discussion the notion of adding something missing, subject to correction, in all American-made guns, boxlock or sidelock: intercepting sears.

They would add to the cost of the action, but I'm not sure by how much. Might ask Mr. Earle to cost out both with and without. That's assuming there's room to fit them in the basic Lefever design.

Must say I'm delighted that a 12 bore is possible and can fit on a 1-1/16 width (or even very slightly smaller) between firing pin centers.

Best, Tim
Posted By: Bill Soverns Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 11:38 AM
Are there any pictures of the metal yet? I went and read all 22 pages of this post....didnt find any and now you guys have my curiosity up!!
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 02:05 PM
Chuck and Glenn, RST is making small gauge papers and they are so neat. Look at your Parker Repro and tell me this new gun can't be made with a close fitting doll's head. My Repro doll's head is fitted as well as any original Parker. I'm sure some progress has been made in CNC technology in 23 years. I'm sure Mr. Skeuse argued with his partners and design engineers about the doll's head, but, in the end, he won the battle and built the doll's head gun. What he didn't realize is that the Parkers with the greater charm are the rare special order Pigeon Guns ordered "without extension"!
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 02:15 PM
Bill, there aren't any pictures of metal yet as this is the measuringand programing stage. This is followed by machining all the req. fixtures for holding parts. Pixtures will be taken of maching op. as well as of parts.

Tim, not sure about the intercepting sears .....

Bob N. If we built it like Uncle Dan, we would have to use a cheaper grade of steel and work to looser tolerances and the heat treatment wouldn't be as good. The idea is to make a version that differs from the original by using better steels, heat treatment and etc. As the Lefever single trigger wasn't at all reliable (quote Buck Hamlen), would you want us to furnish it anyway so that it would be original ? This piece will be very close to original design but improved upon as previously mentioned.
Posted By: David Furman Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 03:31 PM
This talk of "sticking to the original" seems misguided if the project is to happen at all. If using different steel is ok, and using different construction techniques to arrive at the finished product is ok, then why not other changes? Would you give it 2 1/2" chambers becasue Uncle Dan did?? It is an arbitrary line at best over exactly what would be "stuck to" and what would not be, and seems like a slippery slope best not stayed on top of.
Seems to me that it is not a Lefever being debated, and never will be--it is a modern gun based on the design of a lefever. To stick only to the original would be unnecessarily limiting and would make it less of a gun at the end of the day--why try to make it something it's not?? If you want a Lefever, shoot one--no one will force you to buy one of these. If you want a modern gun with the best qualities of a Lefever, you may have to make your own and stray from the original in the process.
Personally, a gun like this would be a financial stretch for me, but it's something that sounds very attractive and the facts that I might actually be able to afford it by spreading the cost over a longer period of time, and that I'll actually have a hand in having it built make it all the more alluring to me. However, if the NEW gun is to be built to a standard that doesn't allow the use of modern no-tox ammo, doesn't take advantage of the best technology available, etc then it makes it less attractive to me--I aim to use my guns. If I want to get it parkerized, put laminated stocks on it, and have Ken Hurst engrave it in a mossy oak shadowgrass camo pattern so I can hunt ducks with it "in style"--what difference would it make? It doesn't diminish the legacy of the original in the least, on the contrary i would find it a testament to the vision of its creator that people would find this 100 year old design not only applicable but preferable to its modern counterparts.
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 03:52 PM
Before the use of the Infallible Single Trigger is engraved in stone, do we know how this trigger works? Let me give a synopsis of operational peculiarities. If we fire the right barrel, open the gun to reload, the next barrel to fire will be the left. If we fire both barrels, right barrel first, open the gun to reload, the next barrel to fire will be the right. This is a system unfamiliar to all modern shooters. It requires a movement of the selector every time we fire only one shell. The Infallible may be fairly reliable as ninety year old single triggers go, I use a couple of them myself, but is probably far from the best available today. It also requires a big hole and a big button to the left of the top tang of our new gun.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 04:17 PM
You are correct about the pecularities of this trigger Eightbore but I felt it was reliable & thought probably most everyone knew how it worked. I do appreciate you bringing this point out. My impression from email I have received at home & mention here is that most would opt for dbl triggers.

As Buck Hamlen said --- the design doesn't need changing internally BUT, tighter tolerances, better steels , specialty heat treating, hand polished parts qill certainly make for a superior gun compaired to an original piece. The idea of not using a dolls head was for cost saving as the DS rib extension is as strong. The decision on this matter is still up in the air. Ken
Posted By: Bill Hambidge Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 06:03 PM
Ken, Oscar felt the simpliest, most durable, and reliable single trigger out there was the Stevens 311 trigger. I believe he also "grafted" some to other American SxS's. Still have to go with KISS, DT/extractors. Best, BILL
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 06:09 PM
Dr. Bill, you are the second person to mention the Stevens 31 trigger. Perhaps this bears looking into --- thanks, ken
Ken - you seem to be going about this the right way. Those that want everything "just like Uncle Dan did it" probably won't be buying into your project no matter how close to the original you come. The only point of re-doing something is to improve upon it.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 07:01 PM
Thank you guys for your support, it certainly is appreciated along with your guidence. After all, to a certain degree you are helping to creat this piece with your ideas of what a perfect modern US made gun should be. Believe me when I say, we will spare no expense producing the highest quality gun we can But, not to be frivilous and just throw money away. All the suggestions will be taken in to account while programing the CNC program.

Dave Furman, the chambers for the 12 ga. will be 2 3/4", 16 ga. will be 2 3/4" and 20 will be 3" ---- all will have long forcing cone --- chokes will be full/full to allow client to determine desired choke. All these suggestions per Mr. Buck Hamlen opinion. Ken
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 11:14 PM
...and I had my mouth all set for a 20/28 ga set.

That 311 trigger design sounds promising. I agree with Murph, a trigger that has those peculiarities is not attractive to me. I was thinking about the BSS mechanical trigger design, but I'll look for an opportunity to study a 311. BTW, Western Gun Parts in Canada used to have BSS trigger parts if some are needed for study. Ken, I'll gladly loan my BSS SST gun to you guys for as long as needed for disassembly and study. I don't shoot it much anyway and it's no cherry. That trigger has been reliable thru at least 20k rounds.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 11:18 PM
Chuck, don't give up on the 28 ga. We have to start small but with enough demand would offer it too. Thanks for the offer of the trigger --- will get back to you on this. Ken
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/23/07 11:48 PM
I'll buy the first high condition Fox BST I can find at a reasonable price for test fire, but the only reasonable ones I've seen lately in high condition have been twelves. Maybe someone would donate a Stevens or Fox single trigger gun for the "makers" to study. Sorry, I don't own one.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/24/07 12:22 AM
Ken,
I understand the gauges you are currently considering. They'll be a good market for the 12 and 20 and likely the 16 will get some decent interest. But, I just haven't warmed up to the 16, especially in a modern load capable gun comparison. I'm of the opinion that a 20 and a 12 bridge this gap nicely with modern loads. A slightly heavy 20g load or a light 12g load pretty much does it for me.
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/24/07 12:48 AM
But, I just haven't warmed up to the 16, especially in a modern load capable gun comparison. I'm of the opinion that a 20 and a 12 bridge this gap nicely with modern loads. A slightly heavy 20g load or a light 12g load pretty much does it for me.
_________________________
Chuck
--

Then don't get one Chuck. But, that doesn't mean there aren't just as many who won't go for the 20 or 12. There are plenty of us who appreciate the 16's strengths, namely the ability to deliver faster, larger payloads than a 20, without the added heft and weight of a 12, or the added expense and extra recoil of magnum 20 loads. The 16 does fill a niche, and it does it wonderfully well. Indeed, if only one gauge were to be offered, I would argue the 16 would be the best all around choice from a handling and payload perspective. What can't a modern 16 do compared to a light 12 or a 20?
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/24/07 02:27 AM
I knew I shouldn't a posted about the 16 just as soon as I had clicked the submit button. Marklart, no offense or arguement intended. Some have more reason to want a 16 than I. You may want to argue that the 16 is the the best allround choice, but I don't want to nor really think it's relavent. What matters is that the chamberings offerred sell enough to justify the work to offer them. In the crowd that this gun will attract, I have confidence the 16 will sell well, maybe the best of the bunch. If only one gauge were to be offered I personally think Tony picked the right one for the RBL for purely volume of sales.

I'm just being selfish like the rest of the bunch and would like a 20-28 combo or even a 20-.410 combo. Just a boring 28" length barrels. 6-6 1/4 lbs would suit me for both gauges to a T.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/24/07 04:07 AM
As of this Monday, Iwill be working with representives of the Italian commercial attache. The purpose being to locate and contact quality/specialty bbl makers in the Bresia Valley/Gardone areas. Don't know how long it will take to find a first class bbl maker and work something out but will be staedy at it. Even in this scaled down Mayberry RFD ( Robersonville) , we have a small Italian restuarant with a native born Italian owner. Fortunately, we are friends so he will talk/email these co's. in Italian for me. Hopefully this will make it easier to get things done. More to come as I get it. Ken
Posted By: PeteM Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/24/07 04:07 AM
Originally Posted By: Ken Hurst
....Believe me when I say, we will spare no expense producing the highest quality gun we can But, not to be frivilous and just throw money away...

Dave Furman, the chambers for the 12 ga. will be 2 3/4", 16 ga. will be 2 3/4" and 20 will be 3" ---- all will have long forcing cone --- chokes will be full/full to allow client to determine desired choke. All these suggestions per Mr. Buck Hamlen opinion. Ken



Ken,

Very sweet indeed. A set of 20ga barrels with 3" chambers and long cones and ready to have the chokes opened a bit. I couldn't ask for any better. I will be interested to see the pricing on barrel sets. While I don't want another 12ga, a 16ga barrel set would entice me if the price is within reach. Especially in a gun that weighs in around 6lbs. Yeah, I know you can cover the 16ga in other ways, but hey, if that is way it should work, then all I would need was a 10ga and a reloading bench. I have grown to like the 28ga recently, but personally feel it should have a light frame. Decisions, decisions, another set of barrels or more engraving.

Pete
Posted By: Tim Carney Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/24/07 08:51 AM
All,

Recognize that Ken is dubious about adding intercepting sears.

Believe people more knowledgeable than I should weigh in on the topic, Darryl H, what do you think? Ken, can you get Buck H to give a view? How about Kirk Merrington? Crossed Chisels, David T., do you care to share a view?

My understanding is that best guns, sidelock or boxlock have intercepting sears. L.C. Smith and Crescent do not, but that should not be a precedent. Only issues here are whether it's an important safety function and does that merit the added cost.

Regards, Tim
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/24/07 02:19 PM
Sorry Chuck for being defensive. No excuse on my part; it's silly, and just a gun after all.

What is the value of intercepting sears vs. non-intercepting? Curious minds would like to know.

Have a great Saturday everyone!
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/24/07 03:05 PM
Tim, wanted to keep this gun as close to original as possible while using better materials & etc. I'm not saying no to your idea now --- will have to give thought to your requeat as well as hearing from interested parties here. Ken
Intercepting sears, correctly designed, can prevent a gun from firing if accidentily dropped. Another approach may be a safety/hammer blocking arrangement. The consideration is - how far to deviate from the original Lefever design.

I like the idea of a hammer blocking arrangement for safety reasons;however, is this feature justied by additional design/mfgr costs.
Posted By: DrBob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 12:31 AM
I just found out about this project from the LeFever forum. I am very interested.
One question, would modern metal change the weight and balance characteristics from the original significantly?
Two comments:
I agree with the poster that a facilitator, to move the project along through each step would be helpful to those who have never attempted something like this, working with custom stockers, engravers and metal folks.

I don't know if the legal matter for a name has been looked into. The LeFever Arms Co. name is still being used by the gunsmithing business in Lee Center,NY. It is no longer in the hands of anybody in the LeFever family since Bob LeFever retired and sold out. Bob passed away a couple of years ago. I would suggest considering using the D.M. LeFever (+/- "and Sons)name. That hasn't been used for 100 years and I am not aware of anybody in the family who would object although I haven't polled them lately.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 02:08 AM
DrBob ---- thanks for your interest and suggestion,I do appreciate your help. This project was my idea & offered my thoughts to the memebrship for their valued feedback --- seems as if it has been approved of.

As I started this project, I will assume the position of facilitator & have already gotten the ball rolling with Steve Earle measuring an action which he will program for CNC controll of mill and lath. This man does the finest work I have had the pleasure of handling. Glenn Fewless is the man for fitting bbl's as he is a fanatic for precision fitting of parts & polishing. Being an old engraver, I'm in hopes of a few of these engraving jobs coming my way. Stockmaking will require more than one stocker and I have two in mind. Before I announce their names, I will have to be sure they can handle the work load as both are very busy. Ken
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 03:01 AM
Ken, I spoke with a dealer at a show this last weekend who said he knows the person who still holds the rights to the Lefever name. Is that an issue you have figured out?
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 04:37 AM
I haven't considered it a real problem as any knowledgable gun person will know what it is. DrBob had an answer and I have been told by an attorney that even Lefever Pat. will be safe. Not to concerned about the name right now. Ken
Posted By: Baron23 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 01:00 PM
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

Stephen "ain't that Shakespeare something" Meyers
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 01:05 PM
Whooo Boy, them's some fancy words And , I even understood a few of them every now and then. I think there's a message there but can't quite figure it out even when I doff my ol thinking cap. Can somebody help me out here ? Ken
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 01:10 PM
FYI ---- Okay guys, we have decided the way to go is with a monoblock. Now, before some of you get excited, allow me to explain what will be done. The tibes will be lazer welded to the block and hand struck as will back of bbl's at breech. You won't see any gap anywhere ! The steel used for both bbl and block will be 4140 to insure the blue will match. Any responces ? Ken
Posted By: oganza Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 01:19 PM
Another pat on the back for taking on a great project. I am impressed at your desire to see this project through and you seem to have an almost alturistic motive.


As far as patents go, all of the "classic" american shotgun designs are public domain now. The maximum patent life would be 20 years from application for patent, even if it were still in production by the company.
Copyright now lasts for the life of the author plus 70 years for a person or 90 years from the initial copyright date for a company. You could run into copyright issues if you tried to use any of the old ad material from Lefever.
The rights to the name (trademark) would be a much less clear issue at this point as no one is actively marketing guns under this name. The basic rule is that not using the trademark causes the trademark to become open for use by another company.

Ken, I'm sure you knew all of that since you have talked to an attorney. You may want to check with him about whether the trademark would be open at this point. Its likely that you would not have to pay anyone for the use of the name unless someone is making guns or gun related items under the name (or possibly if someone still owns the Lefever company through a buyout).

Please don't substitute any of what I said actual legal advice.

Let me know if you need some help with the trademark issue.
I could track down the relevent law for you, so that you could have an idea of the answer before you talk to your attorney. I will graduate lawschool in December and am already a patent agent, so this kind of research interests me. Let me know if I can help.
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 02:16 PM
A little known fact about the works of Shakespeare: The works of William Shakespeare were not, as originally thought, written by him. They were written by a previously unknown creator whose name, oddly enough, was also "William Shakespeare".
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 02:30 PM
Ken, Baron23 is simply saying that the name isn't as important as the end result. A rose by any other name is still a rose. I would agree that a Lefever by any other name would still be a Lefever, but it wouldn't have the name recognition and cachet.

I was shooting my H the other day at the range, and a gentleman came up to me after a round of 5 stand (what a fun game! I did pretty well for my first time) and he asked "what's that double you're shooting there?). I said "It's a Lefever, 16b, H grade." He said, "Oooohhh."

Enough said
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 03:14 PM
Marklart,
Remember the discussion about the Parker Repro's? Some will never acknowledge/accept guns that are produced by anyone other than the original maker. Others won't even acknowledge/accept 2nd/3rd gen Colts SAA's. With Ken not producing complete guns, the naysayer's will have have a hayday with "originality" and attempt to boost themselves up by pushing down this great project. Maybe it could be called a H.E. Lefever? or Hurst-Lefever?
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 03:24 PM
Ken,
I think you've chosen well with the monoblock design. It should allow for precise machining of the dollshead if that feature is included.

Did you mean that the breachface of the monoblock and barrel tubes would also be laser welded? If not, some method of sealing the joint at the tube/monoblock on the breachfaces should be considered to prevent moisture intrusion.

A parting thought: Did you and Steve consider threading the barrels into the monoblock like a rifle?
Why is it that if an individual buys the name of a famous British gunmaker and again starts making guns, possibly with out workers, that many U.S. buyers swoon and beat a path to his door with a fistful of bucks? The bottom line, I believe, still is - a rose by another name is still a rose. Obviously a recognized name is very important; however, the design and quality of the finished product will always speak volumns for itself.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 04:36 PM
Oganza, I would certainly appreciate your generous help with this question --- don't want to get in trouble.

Chuck, the dollshead is in ! I feel the tubes would be best served if they were lazer welded for and aft --- stronger and no joint line. Ken
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 05:24 PM
Chuck, how about the "Lefever Legacy Edition?" "H. Lefever" also sounds good. I'm sure there's all kinds of derivative names that would work if "Lefever Arms Co." proves problematic.
Posted By: Tim Carney Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 06:23 PM
Ken,

Started a thread entitled, "Intercepting Sears" that has garnered some good comment that may help inform on the issue.

Regards, Tim
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 06:32 PM
Thanks Mr. Tim. I have been reading it & will discuss the posibility of using it. Ken
Posted By: oganza Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 09:27 PM
Ken, I know the patents are public domain at this point. I'll start looking into the trademark issues. I should have a pretty good idea what the answer is in a week or two.

Are you planning to start a company to own/control any of this or is it going to be a true guild style project? It may be necessary for someone to start a corporation in order to trademark whatever name you decide on.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 10:13 PM
I wasn't intending on anything other than putting this project on it's feet. After it was running smoothly, I was going to back away and let the other guys do their collective thing together --- they wouldn't need me. If there was any need for me in the future, I would of course be happy to help. Steve Earle is Inc. and could handle the Co. name. --- I will bring it up with him. Thanks again, Ken
Posted By: Glenn Fewless Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 10:36 PM
Gentlemens:

Allow me to toss in a couple pennies on this name thing.

I dislike the idea of any name that implies "imitiation" or "reproduction". Parker Reproduction is an example. I would include titles like "Legacy" or "Edition" as well. We are talking about a fine shotgun here, so why name it like it is a cheap Japanese copy? It deserves a simple, dignified name.

If the rights could be obtained them the original "Lefever Arms Co." sounds fine, though is not exactly honest. "Hurst Levfever" would be honest and a dignified name of its own. Under that heading would be any of a number of combinations:

H. Levefer
H. E. Lefever
Earle Lefever
E. Lefever
E. H. Lefever.

W. W. Greener did not build guns under the name of W. Greener Legacy Arms.

FWIW, to my ear E. H. Lefever has the best ring to it, with H. E. a close second.

Glenn
See, I told u guys....we buy the name!
Posted By: Bill Hambidge Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 11:07 PM
I really like the ring of "H.E. LeFever"(note the correct French Huguenot spelling). Best, BILL
Posted By: rabbit Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/29/07 11:16 PM
I hate Legacy. Sounds like some Yaley with a Porsche and a Skull&Bones key. How bout "New Lefever" since everyone wants a "new" Lefever. I'd settle for "The Steven Earle Gun" for that matter. Ruger didn't call the No. 1 "Tribute to Farhquarson". Somehow I know I'm going to tire of this and go with Teague liners in an old one with reasonable drop on the comb. Say, I just happen to have one like that! Only kidding; I don't have that 1900 either.

jack
Posted By: Glenn Fewless Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/30/07 12:15 AM
Originally Posted By: Lowell Glenthorne
See, I told u guys....we buy the name!


Sir Glenthorne:

Of course we do. Not exclusively, but it certainly is a major player. How many fine doubles do you suppose you could sell under the name "Fuzzy Pink Bunny Arms Co."?


Jack:

"New LeFever" is good.


Glenn
Posted By: Baron23 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 03/30/07 12:42 AM
After my excursion into Shakespeare I talked to Ken and told him frankly that I think adding his and Mr. Earle's name in some manner to the new shotgun name would be entirely appropriate and convey some additional meaning and content to the name.

Personally, I like H.E. Lefever myself.

The rose would smell so sweet no matter...but the dang thing still needs to be called something.

Stephen
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/04/07 06:20 PM
QUESTION ----- In making this new LeFever, there will be a need for names identifing grades. There will be the plain offering action and for those wanting a completed piece, similar grades to the gold inlayed $1000. and Optimus grades. The names for these latter two would be engraved on the bbl. I would appreciate hearing your opinions as to if the old names were kept or if we should explore creating new names for the same grades --------- Lets hear your thoughts. Thanks, Ken
Posted By: john dozier Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/04/07 07:25 PM
What does someone named Hambridge know about Huguenot names? With kindest regards Dr. d'Ozier sends with tongue firmly in cheek
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/04/07 07:26 PM
How you gonna do that Mr. Ken if everyone is going to finish their gun themselves, meaning different engravers or stockers?

Did I miss something or are you going to be offering completed guns now?
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/04/07 07:53 PM
Rob, there has been some thought given to offering the piece completed. This, I feel can still be accomplished by each man in this small guild of workers completing his given task. As each step is completed, the worker is paid his due and the piece shipped to the next individual until piece is completed in total.

The advantage being as we all will be working together, the piece can be finished much faster and as we are all members of this "New LeFever guild", only the highest attention to detail will be done. Being a small guild of workers, it is important to us to only turn out best quality work because our names are tied to it. I personally feel I am only as good as my last piece & know the other mambers feel the same.

Since posting the question, I have already been advised to only offer a $1000. grade gun and it would be the only one stocked & engraved. While I appreciate this point, there will be many clients who won't want gold inlays but would also want the pieced finished by us ASAP. Lots to think about and opinions to be heard.

I heard from the Italian embassey today re. independent bbl makers in Brescia Valley. Hopefully I'll be receiving info in the not to distant future regarding bbl's. Ken
Posted By: PeteM Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/04/07 08:45 PM
Mr. Ken,

You have a difficult task with regard to naming conventions. I for one do not really care much for gold inlays. I much prefer bulino over gold.

In this instance I would rather take the money that would be spend on the inlay and put it toward a second or third set of barrels. I am sure that I am in the minority regarding this.

By the way. The English walnut blank arrived today from Cecil Fredi.

Pete
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/04/07 09:43 PM
Hi Mr. Pete, How about posting pictures of the blank. I eceived pictures of a best grade Eng. blank today from Baron for his SuperX 000 Fabulous !!! Another piece of Cacil Fredi wood. Ken
Posted By: Glenn Fewless Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/04/07 09:55 PM
Gentlemens:

I am a proponent of any such Lefever Guild gun as being labeled $1000 grade. Howsomever I don't think that just because we are using the name of the epitome of the Lefever that we have to faithfully duplicate the original finish, checkering pattern and engraving.

My thinking is that at the time the $1000 was Lefever's version of a best gun and the new one would be just that, a newly made "Best" gun. As for the exact specifics of the configuration it would be just what a thousand dollar gun was back them: exactly what you want crafted at the highest level. I don't think it would have to have a specific engraving pattern. It doesn't have to have gold. It doesn't have to be stocked in Turkish. The $1000 Grade just has to be a fine gun finely executed to the buyers specification.

My two pennies in the pond.

Glenn
Posted By: Baron23 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/04/07 11:35 PM
My first shot at posting images...since Ken mentioned Cecil and this piece of wood, I thought to try to post a picture of it...has nothing to do with Lefever shotguns, old or new..but


Posted By: Baron23 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/04/07 11:38 PM
Posted By: StormsGSP Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/05/07 01:40 AM
Baron that is gonna make a beautiful stock!
Posted By: PeteM Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/05/07 04:41 AM
These are the pictures Cecil provided. The blank is tad darker in overall tone than this, which is what I was looking for. The fiddleback has a much more pronounced look than the pictures show.





In all, I think he sent me pics of over 20 blanks to sort through. I narrowed it down to five and he sent me more detailed photos of those so I could make up my mind. I am sure if I had wanted, he would have sent me over 100. He really is good to work with.

I have an old Lefever stock sitting here. I played around with some different layouts on this blank. All I need now is a H.E.& F. Lefever to put this one on Mr. Ken. It has already been drying for 7 years, I guess it might be ready...

Pete
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/05/07 04:48 AM
Great looking blanks y'all ! I know you'll be one of the first to send in deposit for LeFever Mr. Pete. However, From what I hear from others, looks like it might be a race to see who gets check in first.

Steve hasn't had the time to spend with this board --- He has been working bight and day trying to get out the commissions on hand so he can loosen up some time to start taking hundreds of measurements for LeFever project. Hopefully we'll hear from him soon. Best to all. Ken
Posted By: Bingo5288 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/08/07 12:13 AM
Wouldn't "Special Order" be appropriate for identifying the grade? In rereading Elliott's book it seems to best describe this offering.
Ken, what type of forend release are you planning? clamshell or pushbutton? Also wondering about the toplever?
Keep us posted.

Dave
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/08/07 12:18 AM
Dave, sorry but no decision on either count. Another matter that requires feed back. Ken
Posted By: kgb Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/11/07 01:41 AM
I've been hoping for someone to reproduce/continue the LeFever guns, and this past year finally bought a LAC 12ga just to see the firearm for myself. Since gripes are freely aired here, I'll start with the disappointment that it'll be the LAC guns vice the later DM LeFevers for a piece-project. False sideplates are nice, but since they don't add anything except engraving surface while complicating stocking efforts and possibly result in a relatively weaker stock/receiver connection, I'd like the idea of the later guns. They might even add weight although it'd at least be somewhat centrally located. Plus, it appears there would be no legal issue with the name. I know, waaaaaaaah. : )

As for the rest of the specs, the combination of 16ga, twin triggers, fixed choke barrels of 28" and extractors falls right into how I would desire such a gun. It's what I'd look for in an original if I were to shop for a shooter to keep.

As for the name, simply "LeFever" or "LeFever Gun" would do. It would be a continuation of a design, and just as Galazan makes M21's as a continuation of their production without the Winchester name (optionally), it's the design that matters.

Any idea what it would cost to replicate B-Grade or higher engraving on a LAC gun? Oh, yeah, I vote to keep the cocking indicators!

kgb
Posted By: KY Jon Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/12/07 02:44 AM
Any word from the Etalians on the question of barrels? Cost, numbers needed, ect....
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/12/07 04:07 AM
KY ---- am waiting on hearing back from yjr various Itakian bbl makers --- perhaps you undrstand haw long that takes.


Kgb ---- I haven't guesstinated a cost on dup. these patterns yet. For those interested in such patterns, call me at the below number.
Ken
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/12/07 04:09 AM
KY ---- am waiting on hearing back from the various Italian bbl makers --- perhaps you undrstand haw long that takes.


Kgb ---- I haven't guess-timated a cost on dup. these patterns yet. For those interested in such patterns, call me at the below number.
Ken

PS. sorry for the screwed up spelling ---- should have worn my glasses.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/12/07 05:59 AM
Ken,
I've found what I beleive is the Lefever rib from the damascus barrels I disassembled a year or so back. It appears to be steel instead of damascus(not damascus). Would this be right?

I haven't found the dollhead piece yet.
Posted By: David Furman Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/12/07 04:39 PM
Originally Posted By: eightbore
I see no reason for chrome bores unless the barrel maker charges less for them. As far as no tox requirements, guys who shoot five figure guns don't shoot steel, they shoot no tox that is perfectly compatible with old guns and soft barrels.


I don't have much stake in this here project, BUT my $.02...there are various bills before various state legislatures to ban lead shot altogether (including at firing ranges)--there's one in VT right now. The validity of such a measure is another topic altogether, but this threat is looming on the horizon and it is not out of the realm of possibility that a significant number of us will be shooting no-tox for EVERYTHING in the not too distant future...I know I for one have no problem shelling out $2 a shell for bismuth when hunting, but when you consider the affect that would have on the price of a day on the clays range, the affect could be dramatic for a lot of people--so steel or another hard shot material might start to look more and more interesting to a lot of people.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/12/07 05:44 PM
David,
I believe the problem will take care of itself. If non-tox becomes law for everything, the biz-case for reworking existing guns with a bore hard-plating will be favorable. Also, development of additional shot options are more likely if more bans come into effect.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/12/07 06:45 PM
Chuck, Thanks guy. That rib will do just fine as I will want to dup. the exact dimentions and pattern on top of rib. Ken
How many of you "Lefever Lovers" are members of the Levever Arms Collector's Assoc. I think not a very high proportion of the respondents on this subject. Now, not being a member is not a crime, but I wonder about the actual interest each poster has when talking about the Ken Hurst new Lefever. I have to "weigh" their comments , knowing that their interest is not as fervent[sp]-----------why do they comment ? I have been collecting these guns over 30 years, but still want to know more. Why would the majority of 29 or so pages of posters not be members of the Levever Arms Collector's Assoc. ? It can't be economics, since almost every poster "talks" about wanting New Lefever.
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/12/07 10:32 PM
Good point. I have been a member for as long as I can remember, don't do anything for the organization except share my serial numbers with the LACA database, but do have a nearly complete set of newsletters and have offered it for research. All Lefever interested collectors should be members. Bill Murphy
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/12/07 10:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Chuck H
Ken,
I've found what I beleive is the Lefever rib from the damascus barrels I disassembled a year or so back. It appears to be steel instead of damascus(not damascus). Would this be right?

I haven't found the dollhead piece yet.


I have a top rib from a damascus barreled G, 18,xxx number range, also the bottom rib and a "breech block assy". After I pulled the ribs I cut the barrels off for Zircons testing but left the stubs and breech assembled together, figured might need to sleeve it someday. It has a doll's head on it.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/12/07 10:38 PM
My space at the Southern SXS Classic is desigbated as Lefever central gathering spot for all interested. Yhe space is next to the LC and Parker spaces. Come one , come all. Ken
Posted By: KY Jon Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/13/07 02:09 AM
Daryl Hallquist

I am guilty of not being a member of the LACA. My interest in Lefevers just got out of hand, in the last two or three years. Up till then I lead a quite life in the Remington, Fox, Parker, Smith and Ithaca world. Then I made the venture into the Lefever world. Three years and all most 30 guns later I am getting to the end of Lefever lust.

As to joining the LACA, it just never reached the level that I wanted to join one more thing. I belong to five gun clubs which I shoot at with long time friends, hunt in four states, half a dozen professional associations, one political party, one church, one full time job an one part time job, read eight to ten bbs and post on four bbs, plus one wife and five children to round out a full life.

As to buying one of the new Lefevers, if Ken gets this to work I will buy at least one and most likely several. Money is not as big a deal to me as it once was. Past fifty we all see that money will last long after our time might run out. He who has the most toys may be counted as a winner, but to me if they are not used and enjoyed he is disqualified. I intend to leave my kids a large number of used and enjoyed guns with an even larger pile of empties. Would be nice ot leave my sons a spiffy new Lefever to shoot those shells in after they reload them.
Posted By: Baron23 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/13/07 02:32 AM
Originally Posted By: Daryl Hallquist
why do they comment ? I have been collecting these guns over 30 years, but still want to know more. Why would the majority of 29 or so pages of posters not be members of the Levever Arms Collector's Assoc. ?


Perhaps because some are not interested in collecting them, but rather in owning and shooting a classic SxS made to modern standards? Perhaps because this initiative of Ken's offers a relatively economical way to have a top drawer SxS project, customized as the owner sees fit. Perhaps because.....

I am often reminded in life that "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616), "Hamlet", Act 1 scene 5
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 04/13/07 02:43 AM
Rob, whats the chances of borrowing that breech for the project ? Ken
Posted By: TBB Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/03/07 08:58 PM
Hi Mr. Hurst I enjoyed talking to you on the phone today and am looking forward to meeting you in person in a couple of weeks! This looks like a very exciting project! Good luck and Godspeed! I will definitely keep a close eye on what is happening and stay in touch.
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/04/07 02:54 AM
Ken,

Hadn't seen this thread for a while. You are welcome to use the breech for the project as long as it will be non-destructive.

Of course if it get ruined in the process you can always send me a new one

Give me a call, you have my number. I'll send it to you.

Rob
Posted By: KY Jon Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/21/07 12:37 AM
Ken any progress on the new Lefever project? Been tempted to start making room for one.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/21/07 01:19 AM
Hi guys --- things are still shaking out as I write. I won't be posting on this subject until I have something concrete to say. However, it isn't dead --- just takes time.

Recoil Rob --- I answered your email re. this request but must have been lost in cyberspace. YES, I sure would love to borrow it and it won't be damaged. My address is;

Ken Hurst
PO Box 5
Robersonville, N.C.
27871


Ken
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/21/07 04:56 AM
In the mail tomorrow Ken.
The Hurst-Lefever project continues to develop since last reported by Ken Hurst. Many folks commenting in the BBS referenced features that they would like to have included in the new Hurst-Lefever double. These comments ranged from keeping the barreled action basic with DS grade type features - others commented that they favor the Optimus grade.

I'm attempting to help Ken clarify what the final design should include. He has asked that I address this area through a BBS survey.

The new Hurst-Lefever barreled actions will have auto ejectors and will be built on the XX lightweight frame. The XX frame was used with the 20Ga, 16Ga, and some lightweight 12Ga - 2 3/4" chambered Lefever models. Laser welded tubes with monoblock construction will be used. The compensating action will also be standard. The nominal weight with wood is targeted between 6 1/4 and 6 1/2 lbs.

SURVEY - additional features desired:
1) Gauge - 28Ga, 20Ga, 16Ga, or 12Ga
2) Barrel length - 26",28", 30", or 32"
3) Solid rib type - flat matted or concave
4) Top rib extension - Dolls head or slotted rib extension
5) Forend release - Chamshell type or Push Button
6) Stepped lock plate - Yes or No
7) Cocking indicators - Yes or No
8) Block stock fitted to barrel action with customer supplied
wood - Yes or No
9) Other features desired

Your other input comments will be very welcomed.
George Pittelko
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/29/07 10:45 PM
1) 28ga/20ga
2) 28"
3) flat matted
4) dolls head extension
5) clamshell forend release
6) stepped lockplate
7) no cocking indicators
8) no wood fitted, referred stockmakers list
9) offer single selective trigger.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/29/07 11:10 PM
RECOIL ROB ------ The monoblock arrived today, many thanks. I Will take good care of it. Ken
Posted By: PeteM Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/29/07 11:53 PM
1) Gauge - 20Ga / 28ga
2) Barrel length - 28" / 26"
3) Solid rib type - flat matted
4) Top rib extension - slotted rib extension
5) Forend release - Chamshell type
6) Stepped lock plate - Yes
7) Cocking indicators - Yes
8) Block stock fitted to barrel action with customer supplied
wood - Yes, with 2 or 3 recommended stockmakers.
9) Push thumb opener

Pete
Posted By: Bouvier Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/30/07 12:15 AM
1)28
2)28"
3)concave
4)dolls head
5)clamshell
6)stepped
7)cocking indicators
8)fitted wood
9)second 20G bbl option

Bouvier
Posted By: HIGH$TRAP Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/30/07 12:44 AM
1) 20ga
2) 28"
3) flat matted
4) dolls head extension
5) clamshell forend release
6) stepped lockplate
7) no cocking indicators
8) no wood fitted, referred stockmakers list
9) single selective trigger.
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/30/07 01:07 AM
SURVEY:
1) Gauge - 20Ga
2) Barrel length - 30", or 32" even better
3) Solid rib type - flat matted
4) Top rib extension - doesn't matter to me
5) Forend release - doesn't matter to me
6) Stepped lock plate - Yes
7) Cocking indicators - No
8) Block stock fitted to barrel action with customer supplied
wood - No
9) Double triggers

Thanks for asking!
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/30/07 05:38 AM
1) Gauge - 16ga/20ga
2) Barrel length - 28" / 26"
3) Solid rib type - flat or swamped, matted
4) Top rib extension - slotted rib extension
5) Forend release - Chamshell type
6) Stepped lock plate - Yes
7) Cocking indicators - Yes
8) Block stock fitted to barrel action with customer supplied
wood - available, with 2 or 3 recommended stockmakers, and also available without wood.
9) Push thumb opener, double triggers
10)barrels available separately for existing xx frames.

Thanks for asking [again],

Mark
SURVEY - additional features desired:
1) Gauge - 28Ga and or 20Ga,
2) Barrel length - 28", 30"
3) Solid rib type - flat matted
4) Top rib extension - either
5) Forend release - Chamshell
6) Stepped lock plate - Yes
7) Cocking indicators - No
8) Block stock fitted to barrel action with customer supplied
wood - Yes as an option or no wood
9) double triggers
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/30/07 02:18 PM
[


1) Gauge - 16
2) Barrel length - 30
3) Solid rib type - flat matted
4) Top rib extension - Dolls head
5) Forend release - Chamshell
6) Stepped lock plate - No
7) Cocking indicators - Yes
8) Block stock fitted to barrel action with customer supplied
wood - Yes
9) Other features desired- Next A heavy 12/10 for waterfowl, I've had it with all this small bore stuff!

Your other input comments will be very welcomed.
George Pittelko [/quote]
Posted By: Baron23 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/30/07 02:59 PM
1) 20ga preferred or 28ga
2) 28" preferred or 30"
3) flat matted
4) dolls head extension
5) clamshell forend release
6) stepped lockplate
7) no cocking indicators
8) no wood fitted, referred stockmakers list
9) single selective trigger
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/30/07 03:09 PM
Ken, I finally located my 7 1/4 pound 10 gauge G Grade Lefever that I was so curious about pertaining to pin separation. The gun has 1 5/32 pin separation. I don't remember what the final choice of pin separation was on the new gun, but I remember that it was not fractional. The 1 5/32" separation is just a 32nd more than a #1 1/2 frame Parker and I don't recall its relationship to most XX frame Lefevers. I will try to locate the "frame size" thread and compare this frame to others we researched. This is no ugly gun and could be made in 20 gauge very easily if the breech balls were trimmed just a bit. As I mentioned before, Parker tens were made on pin separation as little as 1 1/16". That is 1.0625, a bit smaller separation, as I recall, than your final choice for the new gun. Bill Murphy
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/30/07 03:32 PM
Ken, I just read this whole thread looking for the dimension you have decided on for pin separation and can't find your post to that effect. One post mentioned that Buck Hamlin mentioned that 1.055 is suitable for small gauges, but I remember that you posted the dimension that the builders had decided to use. Can you repeat that dimension for us? By the way, my baby frame ten gauge has lots of extra room between the breeches and could have been made with less than 1 5/32" separation. I will show you the gun on my next visit. I had an order for a light ten ICD ready to go when Steve Lamboy quit. I had fooled with the ten gauge prototype and finally found an ICD that would cause me to come off my money. Maybe a Lefever? Bill Murphy
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/30/07 08:38 PM
The approximate non fractional pin separation of my baby frame ten gauge Lefever is 1.15625. What dimension did the makers of the new Lefever decide on?
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/30/07 08:57 PM
Bill ---- 1" C/C per Buck Hamlin suggestion. Ken
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/31/07 01:00 AM
Well, that's an easy figure to remember. Parker Grade 3 hammerless, serial number 71,767, a ten bore, was made on a #1 Parker frame with pin separation of 1 1/16". This gun is still smoking them, its Damascus barrels still intact. At least one Parker 12 gauge was built with 1" pin separation.
Posted By: Claybird Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/31/07 06:50 PM
So Ken,

Would a check at this point secure a person's place in line?
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 05/31/07 08:10 PM
Claybird ---- Nope. We want to get a few made and really run them thu the mill ---- I mean shoot the hell out of them. I'm looking to find any weak points in final fitting & function (not talking strength of action/bbl's)/ However, You might write me a letter of intent and your name will go to the top of the list. This letter doesn't bind you to purchase a gun, just puts you in line.

Ken Hurst
kenhurst@suddenlink.net
Posted By: Steven M Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 06/01/07 08:42 PM
1) 12Ga
2) 28" 30" 32" all OK, would rather 30"
3) Flat
4) either is fine
5) either is fine
6) Yes
7) No
8) Yes Yes Yes
9) Double triggers, extra barrel sets
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 06/08/07 05:06 PM
A spot of Good new guys ------ Dave trevillion gave me the name of machinest who he holds in high regard. Mark Harris is his name . Mark machined a lock for a 28 ga. for Mr. Dave and I quote Mr. Dave " Mark did a great job of making it !" Mark and I have spoken at length re. the Lefever project and he is now on board with us. He will be making the complete action and bbl's and they will be assembled, stocked, engraved and finished here here in Mayberry ( Robersonville, N.C.). Mr. Dave said I could use his name as a reference to all of the above. All for now, Ken
Posted By: Bingo5288 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 06/08/07 11:23 PM
Ken, Does this mean that Mark will be doing the machining instead of Steve Earle?

Dave
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 06/08/07 11:41 PM
Hi Bingo, yes , Mark will handle all machining for the project. I was much impress3d with his high caliber of work as Dave T. (crossed chisels) is, If you have further question, you can feel free to call me or I'll answer you best I can on this board. Ken
Ken, I took your Suggestion and went over to the Lefever'site'. All very interesting! I did a "Bit" myself, Registered etc. I wish you 'Well" with your Venture. I noted that "SQ" has put'Pen to Paper over there...In fact he just called and seems to be 'Up' for the Project....I have 2 of his 'Jobs going at this time...Mark Harris is also one of the best....Guess I'll have to Dig My Old Live Pigeon Killer out of storage. "C Grade 12b. 30"" used to have .041"&.041" chokes. I found it 'Blew those'Bridge Pheasants" way out of the 'Ring'!!!Good Krupp Steel Barrels.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 06/09/07 04:24 AM
Thanks Mr. Dave. Mark sent me a picture of the Boss lock he duplicated for you --- really knocked me out. Obviously you were dead right when you spoke so highly of him. Both Mark and I are very excited about having him handle the machining of the metal on the new Lefever. He has some other interesting ideas that could also develop after the Lefever is running smoothly --- will have to wait some time before talking about that however. There is also a strong posibility that we will might be able to offer a hand made leather mutton leg case as an extra for the Lefever --- more to come on that later too.

Stay tuned guys, things are starting to pop at the moment. Will keep you posted as they develop.

I have received a few (non-binding) request to be placed in line for the gun as they are produced. If you would like to be added to the list, please e-mail me. The advantage being that you can make up a list of what you want prior to the gun being made and we will keep it on file. As the time approaches to start on your piece, you will be notified. At that time you can opt to go ahead with the order or not. If your decision is to continue, we will varify your request before work to insure we are still on the same page. Ken
Posted By: BIG AL Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 06/18/07 01:20 PM
I had down the road plans to make a trip to Racine, Wisconsin, and get fitted up by Kolar for their O/U. After talking to Ken in the late of night some six hours ago and reading this entire thread. Well things look a little different this morning. I do hope that this all comes together for all of us, it would be a genuine pleasure.
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 06/18/07 01:29 PM
Many of my friends shoot the Kolar and like them. I shoot the Krieghoff I bought at a show a few years ago for $775.00, cased. With the extra money, I bought a house full of Parkers, Foxes, and Lefevers. That $775.00 Krieghoff is one fine gun. I will never need another competition gun in my lifetime. Some day it will be broken in, probably after I'm gone.
Posted By: BIG AL Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 06/18/07 02:08 PM
LoL, sorry but can't help it. Had that been me that fell into a deal that sweet, the cops would have beat me to my front door.

When you decide to unload the Krieghoff, I will go as high as 776.00. ( I know, in my dreams)

My life long problems with shotguns is, I'm a rifle shooter and have to have a shotgun to fit me like a glove. Or I have to spend time on the skeet range so as not to embarrass myself in front of my friends and brothers-in laws in the field.

The stories of my poor performance with scatter guns are best expressed by XZ*#&$? and have proved the source of great amusement to many friends and loved ones. Unless I trot off to the club and shoot four to six rounds of skeet. Of course this is an utter disappointment to friends and loved one in the field as I clean there clocks. Just don't give me a coffee break in between.

Now a gun that really fits me (rare) I'm able to shoot without full retraining. I've only shot one that really fit me and that was out of the Hemingway estate. NOT FOR SALE.

So I just muddle along in the hope of getting a shotgun that works for me before I leave this mortal coil.
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 06/18/07 04:54 PM
Ken,

I know it's still early, but is there a rough ball park range you can give us on the cost of this so those of us of lesser means can decide if it's even possible to plan and save for this or not?

Thanks,

Mark
Posted By: DrBob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/15/07 08:57 PM
Hi Ken,
Please put me on the list for your project gun. My ideal would be an Optimus grade (can you do gold inlays?). I would prefer 12 guage in 30-32 inch barrels choked for trap, but if everybody goes for a smaller guage I guess I could go along.

Thanks, DrBob
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/15/07 09:12 PM
Hi Dr. Bob, the piece will be made in 20 & 28 ga only for the time being. The actual work hasn't yet started but we now have an origional light weight action to copy. This action is truly unique as it and it's parts have never been assembled --- they are still in the white from the factory ! Please stay in touch as things should start developing before to long. However, this piece isn't going to be a production gun ala the RBL. These guns will be only built to owner spec's to a certain degree.

Ken
Posted By: DrBob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/15/07 09:20 PM
Ken,
I could live with a 20 g but will have to double my time on the range to be able to hit anything with it!
When the time comes I will look to you for advice on how to customize my gun.

DrBob
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/15/07 09:37 PM
Big Al, I don't want to hijack this thread, but, in addition to being very interested in the "New Lefever" project, and being a friend of Ken's, I am a collector of provenanced competition guns. Let's have some more information on the "Hemingway gun" that you mentioned. Thanks. Bill Murphy
Posted By: BIG AL Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/15/07 11:32 PM
Yes Sir Mr. Murphy, This particular shotgun was a sxs 12 ga., Ithica. It was one of a group of guns that came off of papa's boat. I state for the record all of this told to me by the owner of these guns, as a collector myself I'm of the belief that a gun story and a quarter will get you a cup of coffee.

Never the less the gun in question was nothing fancy, plain Jane wood (Lots of cast off) and fit me oh so well. It must have been built to fit some weirdo as it fit me to a "T".

Vary heavy live bird gun, nothing that would appeal to many here on this site.

I can shoot a gun I get used to, if I shoot it enough. I'm a marvel with a gun that fits.

The owner did check my eye position by looking at my eye in relation to the front and middle bead and did declare it a perfect. The stock was shorter than normal with a pad. The gun had not one drop of engraving. As an aside means nothing really, but my test on mounting the gun passed every test I know, only gun this has ever happened to me.

That is the extent of my memory of the gun, but that's been over 20 years ago. Sorry.
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/15/07 11:34 PM
Well, since I didn't receive a reply from Ken, I guess the "If you have to ask, you can't afford it" rule applies here.

And, if I was able to afford it, the fact that it isn't being offered in a 16 would be a deal killer for me anyway. Once again, the 16 gets short shrift, even though lots of people have asked for it.

I just don't get it.
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/15/07 11:44 PM
Sorry, Al, the comment about "Not For Sale" led me to believe that the Hemingway gun was in your gun room. Oh, well.
Posted By: SKB Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/16/07 12:06 AM
Mark,
my guess is the 16 bore tubes are not as availible. Also with a project of this scope, one has to pick ones battles. 16 would be my prefference too just for the record.
Steve
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/16/07 01:18 AM
MARK, We have only received two request for a 16 ga and one request for a 12 ga. This was established by the survey taken by George P. Cos wise, we won't know until one is made. Can't tell until all the houes and material are added up, sorry. Client will pick their own wood from their source which will also affect the overall cost. Engraving is another cost factor that will vary. Ken
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/16/07 04:53 AM
Originally Posted By: Ken Hurst
MARK, We have only received two request for a 16 ga and one request for a 12 ga


Mr. Ken, those numbers seem suspect. I just went over the first 5 pages of this thread and read at least 5 posts promoting the 16ga. Might want to check again.

I believe the reason everyone wants small (20-28) guns is their rarity in the original production. Parkers, Ithacas, Foxes, and now the Lefever, all had a smaller original production of small gauge guns. Therefore their rarity makes them desirable to collectors. When Parker Repros, ICD, and Galazan did their marketing study they figured, and rightly, that 20 & 28's were desirable so that's what they offered. The same is happening now with the Lefever project. Everyone that wishes he could have an original Uncle Dan 20ga. is wanting to satisfy that itch with a new one.

But the truth of it is the original production numbers were much higher for 12's & 16's because more shooters were actually using those gauges.

Personally I'd like to see a 12 or 10 ga waterfowler with steel safe barrels. Nobody does that well anymore and I feel it would be more in keeping with the original production guns. Make some G grades that would be affordable to all. But too late now I suppose. Everyone has to have a high grade, even it's new production.

JMHO.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/16/07 05:02 AM
Ken,
I'm following the project with much interest. I'm pretty sure I'll be in for a 20/28g. I looked into that breach end of the barrels I had. I'm not confident that they're a Lefever set. More likely an Ithaca. I hope you have another source for this area of the gun to study.

Has the project reached the detail design phase yet?
Ken - I do hope I'm on your list. Did you get the PM I sent after the last update? a 20/28 would be ideal from my perspective.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/16/07 12:16 PM
ROB ---- Did you check out the survey George posted ? He sent me a report that indicated that there was only two request for the 16 ga.

Chuck --- Mr. Rob was kund enought to send me a breech section of a Lefever bbl. Thanks anyway.

Vinifera --- I send copies of all request to Jakearoo (Craig Clark).

Ken
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/16/07 01:41 PM
I personally would order if I could have an eightbore, but, try as I may, I can't figure a way to install those barrels on a XX frame.
Posted By: Steven M Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/16/07 02:04 PM
I'm not sure if I'm on any list - I did PM early on but didn't get a response. I'd rather 12 than 20 - so I might be that one 12 bore gun request. Early on it was mentioned that rifle barrels might be a possibility - I'm guessing that didn't pan out?

I'd love an eight bore too though I'd have no real use for it.
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/16/07 02:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Ken Hurst
ROB ---- Did you check out the survey George posted ? He sent me a report that indicated that there was only two request for the 16 ga.

Ken


Mr. Ken, I just saw the survey, there were only 10 responses, and 7 were for 28/20, 2 two were for 16 & one for 12.

OTOH I just reread the first 10 pages of this thread and came away with 12 requests, two for 28/20's, two requests for 12's and eight requests for 16/20's. (eightbore still wants an eight bore.)
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/16/07 03:34 PM
Thanks for the feedback Rob. To start with, we'll have to start making the bbl's that are most requested. Cost of developing a CNC program and making fixtures for each ga. is very expensive & will have to be put off until there are enought orders for them. The guesstimated cost of making the first gun and startup cost could be between $75,000 and $100,000. After start up, the cost will plummet --- getting set up is the big cost. There has been discussion of offering to install these 12 & 16 br. bbl's on new Lefever owners gun at a latter date when there are enough orders to justify a run. Ken
Posted By: BIG AL Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/16/07 04:32 PM
I'm glad to see this threads resurrection from the heap. I hope this reminds folks that the project is still alive and well.

As much as I like the idea of a 20/28, I admit that when Mr. Ken told me of the project I asked about the 16 bore. It would be my first choice.
Ken, Have you decided what grade you are going to produce? Rich
Ken, Have you decided what grade you are going to produce? Rich
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/16/07 09:38 PM
Richard, the game plan was to make this in a Optimus grade --- with or without gold inlays. Of course, I believe a client should be able to select the engraving pattern/look that trips his trigger. Ken
Posted By: Recoil Rob Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/16/07 11:01 PM
Originally Posted By: Ken Hurst
The guesstimated cost of making the first gun and startup cost could be between $75,000 and $100,000. After start up, the cost will plummet


You know what, I'll pass on serial #001, anything after that would be fine...
Ken Hurst and I were reviewing specs for the new Hurst-Lefever shotgun today. We would like to clarify that the Hurst-Lefever shotgun will not be limited only to the Optimus grade model. New guns will be custom made per customer requirements at all price ranges. The customer will have the option to select engraving patterns or none. The customer will supply his own wood for machining and fitting. The new gun will be 100% completed and test fired before shipment from Hurst-Lefever,i.e.,finished metal, barrels blued, stock oil finished and checkered per customer order.

Please note that we continue to move forward with engineering and manufacturing plans at this time.
Posted By: BIG AL Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/19/07 01:27 AM
Originally Posted By: Ken Hurst
Okay guys, give me a chance and I'll try and explain the project.

I have wanted to re make the Lefever shotgun but better than the original. To this end, I have arranged to have Steve Earle machine the action & ejector forend. Another friend of Antonio Zolli will be checking with him in the next few days re. 20 ga. bbl's.--- 28 ga. will be available if there is a demand and will be fitted to clients gun on return of same. The idea is to have the bbl action made here using Italian made bbl's.

The action will be made of the best steels available and the machining will be of a level not seen one any American gun ever made --- period ! Our own Doug Mann and Glenn Fewless have seen and handles actions made by Steve Earle and can testify to their high quality. Steve will duplicate the action and improve it by tightening up the tolerances as well as using different steels that are best for their intended purposes. IE -- D2 steel will be used for the sears, hammer and triggers. 8620 will be used for the frame, forearm, trigger guard and top break lever. Steve never sends any of his action or any of their parts for normal heat treating, rather, he sends them to a specialty heat treat shop for best possible quality.

My idea is to offer this bbl action in a way that it will be a bespoken gun. The idea is to eliminate the middle man in order to make the project more affordable. A client would pay Steve directly for the action, another man for the bbl and fitting charges. At the same time he would order either 26" or 28 " bbl and indicate the choke desired. On receiving metal, the new owner could personally select/furnish his wood to stocker with desired dimensions for completion of stock as well as deciding on checkering pattern, finish and type of recoil pad, skeleton butt plate & etc. On completion of these steps, the metal can be sent out for engraving if desired as well as type finish required.

All these steps can be paid for on their completion and time between various steps can be allowed to fit clients budget ( saving a little money for following step).

This is just a rough outline of my proposal and I fully admit to be lacking in this arena. To this end I would appreciate any thought, replies, suggestions or rejections. If there is a lawyer who would like to contribute a few minutes of his time for a few questions, please advise via my email (kenhurst@suddenlink.net). We could certainly use some advice and would appreciate gearing from you.

Okay guys, as Frazier said " I'm listening." Ken


I did not care one wit who did/does what, I loved the idea that a fellow could pick what he wanted done and what he wanted left undone. I wish that had not got lost during all the shuffle.

There are a number of people that don't want a hanger queen, but want a user that fits in more ways than one. Who will ever offer a package like that?

Yes I want to be my own fitter, yes I want to be the guy that sends my gun back to Ken for engraving. Yes I'm the guy that wants total control over every aspect of the finish.

Maybe some day somebody gets the message and will offer that kind of package deal. Just my two cents, and I do not mean to rain on yours or anybody else's parade
Posted By: Dawson Hobbs Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/19/07 03:45 AM
Obviously engraving and wood type have a lot to do with final cost. But is there a way we could get an estimate on what everything but that will cost? I'm not talking exact figures but are we talking $2000, $10000, $20000 . . . .

I haven't asked for a place in line yet because I have no idea what this is going to cost.

By the way I would vote for a 16/20.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/19/07 04:20 AM
Dawson,
I don't think anyone can provide an accurate account of what this gun will ultimately cost. But, some of the swags from earlier were thought to be 'ballpark'. They ran from around $7k to $10k for a gun without engraving.

I'll stick my neck out a bit again and take another swat at it.
figure Ken gets $100k invested in start-up costs. I figure 100 guns total might be a realistic estimate, but it might be half that number. So figure $1k to 2k worth of amortization,
$2k to $3k for the action
$1k x 2 for the barrels = $2k
$2k for stocking labor
$200-700 for checkering
$500-1500 for wood
$1k for fitting and finishing the barrels and action (blueing, casehardening, etc)
$0 to $?K for engraving.

So, I'm thinking around $10k without engraving. Ken may be far enough thru his planning to provide a more accurate swag.
Posted By: KyBrad3 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/19/07 07:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Recoil Rob
[/quote]

Mr. Ken, I just saw the survey, there were only 10 responses, and 7 were for 28/20, 2 two were for 16 & one for 12.

OTOH I just reread the first 10 pages of this thread and came away with 12 requests, two for 28/20's, two requests for 12's and eight requests for 16/20's. (eightbore still wants an eight bore.)


Good question here. I really hope this project gets off the ground and running. Like someone said early on in the discussion, there were quite a few that looked at the RBL's and passed because it was limited to only the 20ga. Count me in among that group and as voting for a 16/20 in the 3 commonly discussed barrell lengths (26, 28, & 30).

After seeing the Wesson rifle thread, it gives me hope that this project can fly too. Any further updates?

KB
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/19/07 10:25 PM
KB ---- we will be making these Lefevers with the same eye to the quality of the Wesson. Ken
Posted By: marklart Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/20/07 04:06 PM
Ken, sorry to beat a [hopefully not] dead horse, but after reading the replies here, I think you would be surprised at the response if you offered a 16/20 combo. No one else is doing this and it would be a fantastic niche to fill in the marketplace, especially since there are so many other 20's available. What upland hunter in his right mind wouldn't lust after such a combo, custom made to his own specs? I sure as heck would.

Keep up the good work.:)
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/20/07 05:09 PM
Mark, I am always interested in the wants and opinions of this readership. We need to hear a great deal of feedback in regards to a 16 ga. bbl or 16/20 combo. If there is enough demand to justify the cost of making up a number of bbl blanks, it can be done. Ken
Posted By: eightbore Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/20/07 05:22 PM
The choice in gauges is not one one hundredth of the reason why Steve Lamboy discontinued his project. The choice in gauges will not make or break the Lefever project either. If I want a "New Lefever", the choice of gauges will be the least of my worries. We have made our suggestions, and now we will wait for the brochure. By the way, I had many ICD guns pass through my hands to customers before I decided to place an order for myself, a ten. You know the rest of that story. Good luck, Ken.
I'm hoping for a 28. I'm just afraid that 16, while it has is devotees, isn't produced often for the simple reason that there is far less demand for that guage and, unlike 28, a lot more older guns available.
Posted By: jas Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 07/21/07 12:45 AM
Ken,
After talking to you I may be interested in a 20/28 for my daughter. I wish there was some way to fit me and her with the same gun, perhap a plastic stretch stock. (joke) The Lefever Doug did looks really good and should be your way soon.
jas
I cast my vote for a 16ga.
Posted By: Deltaboy Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 08/08/07 08:16 PM
bumped back to top
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 08/08/07 08:52 PM
A 16 ga. is possible but only if we get enough request. There is also the problem of having enough demend for 16 ga. to satisfy whatever the min. requirment for purchase from bbl maker. All this takes mucho time but we are still working towards an end --- somewhere in the future. Ken
Posted By: Steven M Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 12/05/07 01:31 PM
It's been a few months...any updates?
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 12/05/07 05:45 PM
The way things are going, nothing but a steel rated 12 gauge. Can shoot everything and any type of ammo out there.
All the best
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 12/05/07 08:43 PM
Steven M. --- in answer to your question, Mark has been doing some machining on the action as well as some detailed drawings. Work has had to stop so that he could take care of other standing orders he already had. Ken
Posted By: RHD45 Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 12/06/07 02:16 AM
I have thought a lot about this since the first posts on the subject and decided I would like a 12 guage for my son if the project gets going. I believe a 12 is just a more efficient and versatile gun in most configurations.
That is a bitter pill, isn't it? But, it is what it is.
Best,
Ted
Posted By: Steven M Re: "New manufactured" Lefever project - 12/06/07 06:09 AM
Thanks for the update - I can appreciate working on standing orders first.

Personally, I'd prefer 12 ga. also.
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