All,
Just acquired a nice Lefever 20 ga. and have a couple of questions. Usually the Grade is marked to the right of the Serial # on the water table. However, this gun has no grade stamped on it. From the engraving it is either an H or a G and my guess is a G given the approximate date of manufacturer. It is in the serial # range of 712XX. Puts the gun at about 1913 if the estimates are fairly accurate. Additionally, there is a weep hole slightly ahead of the forend lug on the barrels. Did Lefever use weep holes when they rust blued? Thanks - Doublenut

TTT - Any help would be appreciated

No way to help without photos. That high serial number might be during the "assemble from on hand parts" era after the sale to Ithaca. That made grade identification even more difficult than usual.

In late guns, an H usually has no scene engraving while a G would usually have a dog. Both would usually have pull off fore ends. Either could be ejector.

If it has a rib extension rather than a dolls head, it is more likely to be a DS/I than an H. Many of the later made 20s seem to be of that grade.

Is there anything unique on it. higher wood than expected, other oddities. someone had the ability to order outside of the grades and those guns weren't grade stamped.

I just looked and the only one I have with a weep hole is an ithaca assembled gun. All of my lefever assembled guns have no weep hole, from cocking rod models all through the late large hook guns. I also pulled out a .410 lefever nitro and it has a weephole, so im guessing maybe ithaca was doing that.

Doublenut;
The G grade was added to the Lefever line earlier than the H. It began as gun having Damascus bbls, with only line engraving around the Side Plates & little sunburst designs on screw heads & exposed ends. When the H was added it was virtually un-engraved & featured Twist barrels. At a later date a scroll design was added to the side plates of each grade with the H also receiving the sunburst on the screw ends. I do not own a late enough G to have the scroll, but as I recall from ones I have seen it has just a bit more in other places than does the H. Also at some point both grades were offered with steel barrels. If it has welded barrels then their composition is a strong indicator as to if its an H or G, but of course doesn't help much if they are steel. In either case the difference between the two are fairly minor.Both were good solid guns capable of giving many years of dependable service, true "American Classics".
PS; I won't say one doesn't exist but I have never seen a G with a dog or bird scene, only the scroll. Some fairly early F's had a single dog but most later ones have birds (Very early ones had little engraving). Dogs are most often seen on E grade & above

Lefever is one of those rare makes which has almost as many exceptions to the rule as those which follow the rule. As a rule the later the gun the more the engraving which is reversed from most makes which tend to cut cost by getting simpler as they go to save money.

I have three 20 DS and all have weep holes. Also I would bet they were all assembled near or after the Ithaca take over. Quite nice light guns but barrels tend to be thin if mine are average.

Grades were often marked but again there are exceptions. Most tend to be later guns made from parts on hand. I once passed on a H grade with one steel barrel and one Damascused barrel. Certainly an Ithaca gun. Wood was very nice and it had 32" barrels. I regret my mistake. Often the guns you pass on are more interesting than the ones you buy in hind sight.

This is my damascus barreled G Grade, # 18592,(1893) and though it's hard to see in this photo it has a single line border around the inside edge of the side plate, not the frame.





This is an original condition I grade #50167 (1905), with steel barrels I have, no border at all at all.

Trying to post a pic. Is there a stiky on picture posting?

Went through the FAQ's. Here is a pic. Extractor gun with 26" steel barrels, choked Ex. Full/Full. Snap On Forend. 14" LOP with 2 7/8" DAH, 1 5/8" DAC, Butt Plate is plain with lines not the LAC butt plate. Thanks to all

Here is a pic of the water table



and of the receiver/sidelock

DoubleNut;
That looks identical to the engraving on my late H grades. As I said though I don't have a late G with which to compare. My "Youngest" G is in the 28K serial number range & only has the line engraving.

Jon;
If you look at catalogs of the era showing factory suggested list price you will see the reason for this. Competition was fierce & for a good period of time most companies were reducing prices. List price per grade on a Lefever remained unchanged throughout their life. Instead of lowering the price to meet competition, they up-graded the engraving etc & then at intervals added another grade at the bottom. Very early catalogs show the E as the bottom grade, then the F was added, then G & later the H & finally the I/DS.

My little 20 gauge GE with near identical engraving, 69,000 range:

Posting photos on this BBS is very easy. First, move your picture to Photobucket, which is an online host. Next, copy the IMG code that shows up on the right side of the picture. Paste it in the BBS reply box along with whatever you want to say.
Presto!

Joe;
If you compare the gun Doublenut posted your G has an extra flourish at the rear of the side plate his doesn't have. None of my H's have it either. Also none of my H's have the scroll on trigger guard & bottom of action in front of the trigger plate as your G does. Though he did not post a picture of the bottom I am thinking his gun is an H.

Joe,
Thanks for you pic. 2-Piper is correct, my gun does not have the additional embellishment at the back of the side plate and it does not have anything on the trigger guard or floor plate. Thanks for everyone's input.