Did Krupp ever make damascus shotgun barrels? Or were there damascus barrels stamped Krupp?

To the best of my knowledge they only produced fluid steel barrels.

Pete

Fluid steel.
I have seen a set of Lefever Damascus barrels stamped Krupp. I believe these barrels to have been marked Krupp while they were in the white. I talkedto a man that knows about all there is to know about Krupp and he said no Krupp did not make Damascus.

I have seen it stated on several occasions that Krupp never "Made" any small arms barrels. They made large barrels for heavy ordnance & otherwise as far as rifles & shotguns go, they supplied the steel to barrel makers. If you note on most barrels with a Krupp mark it will say Krupp Stahl (steel), this does not denote that Krupp actually made the barrel. This mark was normally applied by the barrel maker & not by Krupp themselves. I highly suspect that Damascus barrel with a Krupp mark, was stamped in error.

I'd like to make the acquaintance of said fella as I have some questions of my own.

Indeed, 2piper is most correct and I'd have to look but I believe the Krupp bar stock was 30cm in length and I have strong suspicions that it was acquired from the F. Asoethwer/Asthöwer/Asthowever/Ashtrömer( Gussstahlwerkes Fritz Asthöwer & Co. ) & Company(Annen Steel Works), Crucible Cast steel works, Annen, Westphalia or later Krupp Steel Works:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post352351

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

"I have seen it stated on several occasions that Krupp never "Made" any small arms barrels. They made large barrels for heavy ordnance & otherwise as far as rifles & shotguns go, they supplied the steel to barrel makers."

Raimey & 2-pipe...as to the 'makers' of shotgun barrels formed from Krupp steel...Raimey, I know you believe most of that work was done in Belgium in the early 20th century - do you find maker's marks on many barrels? Was this activity highly fragmented among many small trades shops, or were there a number of large companies?

Just a small sample of the Belgian barrel shops. There were many more.

Lucien Clement barrel shop


ML barrel shop


Pieper barrel shop




Delcour-Dupont barrel shop


Pete

Pete, that's really good stuff. Thanks

I think, in most cases, the name of the steel used in the construction of barrels does not mean that the steel works in question actually produced the barrels. The Verney-Carron catalog from 1922 refers to "the principal qualities of steel THAT WE USE THIS YEAR IN THE MANUFACTURE OF OUR GUN BARRELS". In specific, they mention Jacob Holtzer steel, but I think the above sentence makes it clear that V-C and not Jacob Holtzer actually makes the barrels.

Larry, I don't think your quote is crystal clear on who made the tubes. Most gunmakers finished up tubes supplied by others. Krupp, Whitworth , etc could go through several hands.

Our Beretta Paralleli Società researched barrel provenance for a newsletter article last summer. Here's an excerpt...we'd appreciate any corrections or enhancements :-)

Throughout the last century, it is somewhat uncertain what years Beretta received pre-bored cylindrical billets from steel mills (or Liege mechanics), and when they began receiving raw ingots of steel to shape, bore, and finish in-house. In 1881 Giuseppe Beretta published a document saying “I alone undertake the complete manufacture (of shotguns), while other Brescian firms do not make their own barrels, but buy them ready-made.” However 30-odd years later American Rifleman researched the shotgun barrel supply chain and determined that "to avoid overheating during the brazing process, makers of Anticorro, Krupp Special, Witten, Excelsior, and other high quality steels refused to sell shotgun barrels as single tubes; they sold them only in pairs already fitted together and finished – with the exception of chambering and bluing."

Fluid steel had been around since the 1860s (Berger, Whitworth, et al) but was becoming more prevalent in the early 1900s and the process of forming barrels evolved and became more complex – driven by developments in the tools of the trade, drills, grinders, lathes, etc.. In 1903 Beretta had ~130 employees in ~100,000 square feet of factory space and may have lacked the tools and machinery to work fluid steel. Given that Beretta cataloged and sold entire guns made by other firms at that time, it is not unimaginable for them to have bought mostly finished barrels for their shotguns.

Between the wars mechanization became prominent in the arms business. Steel ingots were cut and transformed into smaller cylindrical billets which were typically shipped to a machinist to rough-form blanks or tubes according to the gunmaker's order. A typical tube making process was to achieve the desired length by some sort of forging process or forge passing operation, which compressed and hardened the steel, then bore a pilot hole. Then they would begin the hole enlargement process. Next came the exterior grinding, profiling, and outside turning. Then they were back to the gun maker’s specific gauge/profile requirements. After that they were back to the external profiling followed by internal polishing/lapping which was accomplished by women or children. Last they were back to the exterior. Finally it was sent to the proofhouse. At this stage, it is known as a tube or a barrel, forged and rough bored barrel.

In Suhl there were the Kelbers, Kletts, Schillings(not sure if V.C. Shilling was included but he was a tube outlet) and I'm sure others. In Jupille, Belgium sometime in the late 1890s centered around the German influence, it had a monopoly on rolling Krupp steel tubes from Krupp bars and I have strong suspicions that these tubes permeated most, if not all of the gunmaking centres. But there are at least 2 exceptions to the bar stock rule: Joseph Whitworth & Heinrich Ehrhardt of Zella Sankt Blasii(with son-in-law Paul Heye evolved to Rheinmetall). Both had steel cavity patents that allowed the production of hollow cylindrical vessels. Whithworth's outlet pretty much was Purdey and Ehrhardt's was Suhl and Zella - Mehlis as far as can be ascertained.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Me thinks Mr. Hallquist is spot on here and that for the most part a weapons maker received either a rough bored tube or a tube closer to the final state and that the go-between betwixt the drop forge hammer along with drill and grinding wheel and the weapons maker was the tube knitter, who was an outsource worker. Larger concerns like Pieper & Sauer more than likely had all under one umbrella but this was not the norm.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I know these are not Krupp Barrels, but they certainly raise a few questions. Lefever, pre 1899 gun.

I had Harry McGowen make a custom rifle for me many years ago. He showed me around his shop. He had cylinder stock from US Steel. He did all the shaping, drilled and rifled the bore. No where on the gun does it say "US STEEL"....

Even when we know that semi-finished damascus tubes were being shipped, do we have more than the occasional maker's mark.

Pete

Raimey, my point was simply that gunmakers often advertised the SOURCE of their steel (like Whitworth, for example), but that does not mean that Whitworth made the barrels. As you pointed out previously, Krupp steel was made into Krupp barrels elsewhere. Holtzer did make artillery tubes (as did Krupp). I know you're dubious about V-C and barrels, but they go to great length in their 1922 catalog (several pages) to discuss the quality of the steel, the process of assembling the barrels (demi-bloc/chopper lump etc). Then there's the fact that they are currently in the barrel-making business. The odd "Metro" barrels, fitted onto the end of shotguns to reduce noise in situations where hunting is legal but the cops might show up if someone reports gunfire, were marketed by Hastings but made by V-C. At what point V-C entered the picture in 1922 may not be clear, but I think what is clear is that Holtzer wasn't likely in the business of going beyond rough tubes at the most, and possibly not even that, any more than Krupp was.

I think the Lefever pictured above, was stamped by an unscrupulous seller at some point after Damascus was universally deemed dangerous. Lefever would never have stamped that with single letters, or in that location. The "Krupp Fluid -Essen" or "Krupp Flusstahl" markings that I have seen, have always been ahead of the flats, and sometimes nearly struck off in finishing, which tells me the gunmakers received them in the semi finished state, already marked.
The makers would sometimes use "Krupp" on top to advertise what high quality bbls. they used.

We obviously may never know about that Lefever but it is a single-family special order or presentation gun that remains in the original family. I have heard that theory before and while it sounds reasonable I doubt it is the case in this situation. Yet I don t believe Lefever put it on there either...

Mr. Brown:
I understand you point and possibly at some juncture with supporting evidence like a ledger, names of tube makers, etc. I could stomach that V-C made all their own tubes but even though they now make everything inhouse, much like Beretta now who sourced prior to WWII, it doesn't support that they did not source their tubes inland or abroad. I'm sure Holtzer was a staple for bar stock, but was every V-C fitted with Holtzer steel tubes or were some sourced? You have Rigby wearing German steel( F. Asoethwer/Asthöwer/Asthowever/Ashtrömer( Gussstahlwerkes Fritz Asthöwer & Co. ) & Company(Annen Steel Works), Crucible Cast steel works, Annen, Westphalia or later Krupp Steel Works ) and I assume others also sourced Germany pre-WWI. It was at this point in time that sourcing lines dried up and just like the makers in the U.S. of A. inland sources became the staple. For sure more info has to be obtained here. But I'm very confident, in fact almost so that you could take it to the bank unless someone else provides any info otherwise, that Whitworth and Heinrich Ehrhardt, with their novel steel cavity patents for hollow steel cylinders, did peddle tubes in the rough. I'd say almost all other steel concerns peddled bar steel to the tube maker who wailed on the bar stock to transform it into the tube state.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Probably 30 years ago - before I became smitten with doubles - I lived in Philadelphia & was reading the newspaper at lunch one friday when I saw an airline's advert for a $49 round trip fare to Brussels...one call to the airline & another to the wife and we were on the plane that night. But all I remember seeing there was an endless row of linen shops.

What we need today is someone to collect everyone's questions and hike on over to the "Les Amis du Musée d'Armes de Liège" http://www.museedarmes.be/home.htm

Anyone been there???

Jim,

I'm living some 100 Kilometers away from Liège and what I have on my agenda, is a visit to the Musée d'armes….. So, perhaps you can give me your questions, but no more than 3….!!! I'll try to (let them) answer. :-))

On the other hand, it could be useful to learn some french, because there are several excellent books published about the Liège gunmaking, for example by Claude Gaier!

Gunwolf

It is useless to present text or questions to the Liége Arms Museum when they are not in French language, they never give you an answer. Peter Mikalajunas know about what I speak we visited the museum together when he visited me in Belgium.
Marc.

Time to get together a fund to pay my expenses? I'll go! Right now, Belgium has to be nicer than northern WI.

Raimey, if you had the 1922 catalog, you would know that not all V-C's were tubed with Holtzer. (You can get it from Cornell Publications.) They refer in specific to 4 different qualities of steel used in their better guns. Lowest is acier diamant. The next 3 are all different qualities of Holtzer steel. And they use less expensive steel in their lower grade guns. The only steel specifically identified by source is Holtzer. Otherwise, you have the usual stuff you find on French guns: "acier de surete"; "acier de qualite special"; "acier au creuset comprime"; etc.

I know you look on catalogs as basically so much advertising, but I find the V-C catalogs to go out of their way when it comes to honesty. For example, in 1999, V-C listed two sxs models in its catalog. But even though those guns are marked "Verney-Carron", the catalog copy makes it quite clear that they are made for V-C "in the European Union". (The less expensive looks Spanish to me; the more expensive looks very Merkel-ish.) So no attempt to hide the outside origin of those guns--while giving them the same guarantee as those made by V-C.

Yes, I have seen most of the French Advertising


1915 Krupp Advert for Thomas Prosser & Son, 26 Platt Street, NY


Interesting 1915 Vulcan Crucible Steel Advert that caught my eye

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

And some of you Purdey owners may just have an example that wears German Stahl also:

"The only break in this Whitworth tradition was in 1898, when the steel workers went on strike. Between July and December of that year Purdey's had to go to Krupp for barrels and made eighty-three guns with their tubes."

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=354713#Post354713

Purdey, Rigby, who's next, hold your hand high to be counted?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This is true. Even if the question is in French, do not expect an answer from them. I tried to maintain an email conversation with them. Apparently, they just were not interested.

Pete

Whitworth's biggest customer was LC Smith. They decided to slow down their shipping to them then raised their prices. In came Krupp on a white stallion with better barrels for a better than original price. LC Smith used that opportunity to force Whitworth to LOWER the barrel cost from their ORIGINAL price. Ah, American business sense. The Obamination would be shocked!

I don't doubt you one iota, but I'm curious as to the actual number. I would have thought it to be Kilby or someone inland. Thus far, it appears that tubes of Antinit, Antikorro, Krupp 3 Ringe, Whitworth, Witten Excelsior & possibly others all came in tubesets. I wonder if this is how L.C. Smith received the Whitworth variety.. But the main reason that Krupp steel tubes were cheaper is that either the Germans were having them rolled in Liege or the Liege makers were rolling them on their own. Pre-WWI, I'd say the bulk of run of the mill Krupp steel tubes originated in Liege.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Krupp was likely too busy making artillery tubes for the Kaiser's army.

You are most correct along with armour plating for Kriegsmarine?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

To bring this full circle, I recently saw an advertisement for an LC Smith with Krupp damascus barrels which I though most unusual as I thought Krupp had only manufactured fluid steel barrels. After this discussion my interest is piqued and I will have to pursue the add further.

Didn't know where else to drop this in short order so I'm attaching it here for a time.





Italian IAG double from 1930. Note how closely the proofmarks mimic the German ones & position on the flats. This example or another from 1931 wears Krupp steel tubes.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse