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Posted By: Drew Hause CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 06:45 PM
In light of the 'Fingers' thread, I thought I'd go ahead and share this disaster.



A Remington 1894 A grade with 'Oxford 2 S.J.' which was being shot only for the second time. The owner shot Gun Club reloads using a MEC 9000. The event occurred on shooting the incomer at Skeet station 7. Bystanders heard an abnormally loud report and actually came to investigate. A physician and PA were in the squad and provided immediate First Aid. Fortunately, the forearm is healing well and without apparent sequelae.

I will be receiving the piece and barrel this week for a post-mortum with careful measurements of wall thicknesses of the remains. Another piece has not been located. The owner quite understandably declined to allow the right barrel to be subjected to destructive testing.
Only two shells remain in the box, and the owner intends to open and weigh the powder in the remaining shells from that reloading session for another possible double charge.
I will post more high resolution ultra-close up images, but several fractures are apparent and they do NOT appear to follow a ribband weld line.
I very much appreciate the opportunity to evaluate the barrels and might send them for MagnaFlux testing. If I had a spare $500 I would ask H.P. White to proof the right barrel.
I am NOT a metallurgist so any other recommendations for testing are most welcome! Is there a way to determine if the wall discoloration is rust/oxidation?

Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 07:05 PM
There have been reports of Gun Club steel HEAD separation, but neither Gun Clubs nor STS have a two piece/separate base WAD

Posted By: OH Osthaus Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 07:26 PM
no metallurgist here either, that discoloration is interesting since it does not cover the entire area
Posted By: Jawjadawg Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 07:45 PM
Dr. Drew,
I find the picture of the plastic shell casing still sitting inside the chamber to be of interest. It appears as though the crimp refused to open properly, leaving the charge to find another avenue of exit. Such an assumption is obviously problematic. Then there is also the issue of my not really being an expert on anything.
Posted By: Buchsemann Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 07:56 PM
I'm no "expert" or metallurgist either but it sure looks like the barrel was already in the process of letting go based on what looks like oxidization that had formed along pre-existing fractures. A lab with a high power microscope should be able to identify the tell-tale "beach marks" of fatigue if this failure was in process over time rather than an abrupt event. I must add that I have never examined such in Damascus steel. If the staining is indeed oxidization I would prefer hearing that such came by way of fatique fractures and not that which could be associated with pitting. The latter could make any fan of Damascus barrels a tad nervous.
Posted By: AkMike1 Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 08:20 PM
Look at the rust on the inside of the chamber wall. It's the same color as the broken edge areas. I'd say also the same age, so the SG wasn't kept dry afterwards
Posted By: lagopus Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 08:28 PM
I wouldn't be too quick to blame the Damascus. The fact that the cartridge case has taken on some of the Damascus pattern on the outside indicates to me a classic overloaded round. Lagopus.....
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 08:44 PM
"the cartridge case has taken on some of the Damascus pattern "

Good eye mate and my opinion also smile Again, I hope to post better images soon.
Posted By: Jawjadawg Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 08:48 PM
I read an interesting post some weeks back that was actually quite old. The fellow who posted had experienced a similar type failure after shooting a shell that he said had been rolling around in his vehicle for some period of time. He speculated that the gun powder had indeed become very fine powder from the action of rolling around in his vehicle, which in turn changed the way the powder had detonated. Unrelated to this situation, but the thought prompted me to gather up all of the loose shotgun shells in my truck for disposal.

Buchsemann, can you explain how these fatigue fractures would have occurred? Would one possible cause be the use of high pressure loads? The barrels might not have failed catastrophically at the time of use, but instead formed tiny cracks which then accepted moisture, leading to rust?

Do we all need to get out the microscope to take a closer look at our barrels?
Posted By: James Flynn Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 09:12 PM
Observing the wound, I assume the puncture was done by a fragment and not gas. No burns can be seen.

From the picture, the wall thickness appears sufficient. The crimp probably opened correctly but when the barrels failed, the gasses went multi-directional, thus blowing the crimp backwards and melting it somewhat. If the powder charge was doubled, odds are that the case would have ruptured and burst closer to the head. My picture estimate would be metal failure. It must be remembered that barrel bursts can be caused by a conglomeration of problems. Too hot a primer, slightly more powder, loose base wad, heavier shot weight, etc.

I don't see a bulge that indicates a bore obstruction.

Just some thoughts.
Posted By: Mike Bonner Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 10:05 PM
I'd like to know how anyone can get a double charge of powder into a 12 ga hull under a full load of shot. Or even a 50 % increase. I'd surely like to know what caused that catastrophic burst, as would we all who shoot Damascus barrelled guns. Does look like rust in cracks though, doesn't it?
Mike
Posted By: 2-piper Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 10:08 PM
Look at the loose piece. This appears to be the forward part of the missing area. It does appear to have a bulge as well as a slight flaring of the forward wall of the break in the barrel itself. This may well have been the result of a loose base wad lodged in the cone with the rupture starting at that area. The force there may have been severe enough that as it ruptured it just tore out the mat'l behind the actual rupture point.
Posted By: builder Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 10:09 PM
I think the lines on the green plastic casing following the ribands of the chamber and barrel indicate a huge overload of pressure. I posit this could be caused by a double charge of powder or an obstruction not allowing the charge to expand down the barrel.
Posted By: Mike Bonner Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 10:42 PM
Most of this type of barrel bulge or burst is caused by an obstruction, right?.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 10:54 PM
There are several chamber blow-outs here Mike, and most are presumed to be from a double powder charge. Most distal barrel ruptures are certainly from obstruction.
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17546456

This may well have been a 20g shell lodged in the 12g forcing cone

Posted By: eightbore Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 10:58 PM
Not only should all unused shells be dismantled and components weighed, but all identified empties should be inspected for missing base wads. This is easier than it sounds. Only empties at station seven, and possibly station six need be inspected.
Posted By: David Williamson Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 11:18 PM
Not a good thing. Previous cracking along pattern, moisture build-up, excessive powder charge, etc. It would be nice to know what he loaded or was trying to load.

As for being a double drop of powder, not in a progressive machine, brother Drew stated Mec 900, I believe he meant Mec 9000 which is usually set up for automatic operation except for new shell placement and wad placement. Every time it indexes, it moves to another station and the charge bar does the same. The bushing will hold just one charge of powder, and one charge of shot. So I do not believe a double charge from a Mec 9000 or any other progressive Mec.

The wall thickness looks good, the recipe is what is needed.
Posted By: tw Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 11:32 PM
Well, it isn't likely a base wad problem as the Remington Gun Club hull does not have one. Thos hulls, like the STS are one piece construction.
Posted By: eightbore Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 11:37 PM
Your point is well accepted, but a blowup like that could be the whole shell, minus the steel base, stuck in the forcing cone. I hesitate to use the term "compression formed" because I don't know that's what it is. I also don't think the injured party is the one who should be inspecting and weighing the shells. Neutral party would be a better choice.
Posted By: ed good Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 11:52 PM
ouch!

make sure you get a tetanus shot...
Posted By: Robt. Harris Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/27/14 11:58 PM
Originally Posted By: Mike Bonner
I'd like to know how anyone can get a double charge of powder into a 12 ga hull under a full load of shot. Or even a 50 % increase. Mike


Mike,

It might not be as hard to do as you think....

True story: I was at our local gun range this past Saturday shooting skeet. A new fellow to the range was there with a brand new Ruger Red Label in 12 ga. that his wife and a friend bought him as a recent retirement gift. He was shooting reloaded ammo put together by another friend with a press, as he didn't have one as yet. His loads sounded appreciably louder than those of the rest of the squad and were noticeably punching him pretty good which took some doing as he was about 6' 4" and approaching 300 lbs. ....IOW...a big boy!

He just shot the one box, on our recommendation, and I asked if he'd give me a couple of those loads for dissection, as I suspected an overload. He kindly did, we exchanged phone numbers, and I called him that same afternoon to tell him the following:

The 1-1/8 oz. loads (in Federal Top Gun case) contained a loosely fitting Win. WAA 12 wad and 25.1 grains of 700X powder. Lyman loading manual called for just 17.0 gr. of the stuff for 1175 fps and approx. 9400psi. for a 47% overload in his case....or very near one-half again the amount of powder than what was required. It all fit in the hull quite nicely with an average looking crimp.....so it can be done! He was pretty stunned to hear this and vowed he'd cut open the few remaining loads he had to salvage the components. I can only hope he did....


rob
Posted By: KY Jon Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/28/14 12:10 AM
Robt. That give you an ideal of how stout the new Red Label is. Same load in most doubles would have been much more of a problem.
Posted By: mark Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/28/14 12:11 AM
The theory of how you could get an overcharge of powder in a progressive loader goes like this, 1st powder charge drops but gets hung up in the tube, second charge drops and clears 1st and second charge drop into shell. When loading light loads the wad often has a short shot cup and a long cushion area. It is part of the theory that this cushion area collapses and makes room for the over load of powder.

You can never know for sure about these things after the fact. But I know 2 long time reloaders using progressive loaders that blow up chambers. Both dissected other shells from the session and found light or missing charges. One loaded up a double charge to test the theory. it pressure tested over 30,000psi.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/28/14 12:35 AM
Thank you Mark, and interesting. The shooter did comment that he has had an occasional light load/blooper.
Posted By: Roy Hebbes Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/28/14 01:42 PM
Drew,
Is there any possibility that a 20G shell was accidentally inserted ahead of the 12G shell? Burrard illustrates similar "blow out" failures on guns with steel barrels, in his book the, Modern Shot Gun,Vol;3
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/28/14 02:08 PM
Originally Posted By: James Flynn
Observing the wound, I assume the puncture was done by a fragment and not gas. No burns can be seen.

From the picture, the wall thickness appears sufficient. The crimp probably opened correctly but when the barrels failed, the gasses went multi-directional, thus blowing the crimp backwards and melting it somewhat. If the powder charge was doubled, odds are that the case would have ruptured and burst closer to the head. My picture estimate would be metal failure. It must be remembered that barrel bursts can be caused by a conglomeration of problems. Too hot a primer, slightly more powder, loose base wad, heavier shot weight, etc.

I don't see a bulge that indicates a bore obstruction.

Just some thoughts.
I agree with the metal fatigue, and also commend the sharp set of eyes that noted the imprint of the Damascus pattern onto the exterior of the green plastic shell casing- I also concur with the oxidation pattern analysis presented- very true, more so with the amalgam of iron and mild steel used to make such tubes- it must also be remembered that the iron "skelp" admixture could consist of melted down horseshoes, nails, etc-- I am not a metallurgist, but when we worked for Townsend & Bottom on the West Olive (MI) plant years ago, for all those welders, myself included, who passed their coupon testing the first time, the company gave us a paid membership in the AWS- and I read and kept all my issues, and there is where I became interested in metallurgy, mainly ferrous such as we looking at here. How did the top and bottom ribs fare from this incident?? RWTF
Posted By: xs hedspace Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/28/14 05:09 PM
The brown along the break indicates previous weakening from corrosion. Been there for awhile. Previous firing with corrosive primers gets into seams on the twists, doesn't get cleaned out with bore cleaner.
Posted By: Buchsemann Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/28/14 06:19 PM
jawjadawg,

"Buchsemann, can you explain how these fatigue fractures would have occurred? Would one possible cause be the use of high pressure loads? The barrels might not have failed catastrophically at the time of use, but instead formed tiny cracks which then accepted moisture, leading to rust?

Do we all need to get out the microscope to take a closer look at our barrels?"

Rather than writing a lengthy description of how fatigue fractures come about I'll keep it short by saying such is caused by cyclic/repeated stressing and relaxing or loading and unloading of a material. The failure begins with a microscopic crack and over time the crack continues to propagate until the material finally lets go. The "beech marks" that I noted are trace evidence of this process having taken place though I personally haven’t viewed such in Damascus steel. I too noticed the impressions in the plastic hull which reminded me of an oops experience I had working up a regulation load for one of my double rifles. In short I zigged when I should have zagged with my powder charge and almost destroyed a rather expensive weapon and did bodily harm to my person. In addition to temporarily freezing my highly re-enforced action, stretching the material of the receiver to its upper limits (the gun had to cool a little before the cross-bolt released), the machining marks in the chamber where imprinted about the exterior of my brass case.

Again, I am no expert but it looks to me as if the exploded gun pictured in this thread has seen more than one heavier than necessary charge.

I like Damascus barrels and see "quality" tubes as being just as good as nitro barrels and far prettier when loaded correctly. IMHO the series "Finding Out for Myself" written by Sherman Bell is a must read for any early shotgun enthusiast; thinking a good idea for any "gunny" really.

Mark

PS - If you are concerned about the state of your barrels with regard to fatigue there are many materials labs scattered about the country, manned by "experts”, that could do some simple penetrant tests and other visual inspections for you to put your mind at ease. PM me if you want to go that route.
Posted By: David Williamson Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/28/14 07:02 PM
If those barrels had been stub twist, I would say those circular ribbons might have been from the barrel, but what would cause the hull to expand that much.
Certainly an overcharge of powder or wrong primer would not do that. It is as if the hull expanded by having something not letting if open.
Posted By: keith Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/28/14 09:35 PM
Originally Posted By: xs hedspace
The brown along the break indicates previous weakening from corrosion. Been there for awhile. Previous firing with corrosive primers gets into seams on the twists, doesn't get cleaned out with bore cleaner.


Not even likely since the fracture doesn't follow either the weld joints of the ribbands, or of the Damascus pattern. I'll say this was due to high pressure. The problem is to determine what caused a pressure spike that ruptured the barrel. As for the rust, bare clean metal can have this amount of rusting overnight under humid conditions. We need to know how soon the picture was taken after the burst before we even consider that rust staining as significant. And how many guys at the gun club ran their fingers with salty perspiration across the fresh break? It would be nice to see if the primer of the ruptured shell is any different in appearance than others from the same box.
Posted By: MarketHunter Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/28/14 09:40 PM
The first question to ask when looking at the discoloration on the metal would be how long after the incident were the photos of the damaged gun taken. If the gun laid uncleaned for a period of time it could be rust that formed then and have nothing to do with the rupture itself.

DLH
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/28/14 10:17 PM
Destry and Keith are correct. I just communicated with the shooter, and when the blow out occurred the gun was dropped to the ground landing in snow. After dealing with the injury, other Club members picked up the gun and the one piece of barrel that could be found. The event occurred on Tuesday, and he did not recover the gun until Friday and found the hull and chamber to be wet and there was already rust on the chamber and barrel wall.

He will send me his reload recipe.
Posted By: craigd Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/28/14 10:38 PM
I'd wonder about the load too.

Even if the gun laid out, there still seems to be distinct differences between what may be preexisting oxidation and fresher appearing cracks. It really doesn't seem to follow any of the pattern in the barrel.

Just thoughts, thanks for showing it Doc Drew.
Posted By: MarketHunter Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 12:16 AM
Yeah, I kinda figured that might be the case. I'd say this is a pressure or obstruction issue for sure.

DLH
Posted By: Buchsemann Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 02:16 AM
It was wet and sat around for days, nice. I am looking forward to seeing Drew’s “high resolution ultra-close up images” just out of curiosity. Perhaps it was a “one off” and the shooter just 1) placed bomb in chamber 2) pulled trigger and 3) spent quality time with physician. If not high pressure alone any ideas as to what a possible obstruction might have been? Are there any other tidbits of information missing from this … incident report? There are bright fractured surfaces as well as stained. Were other pieces broken away days later?

Anyway, after looking at the pictures again the shooter was quite lucky, things could have been much worse.
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 02:30 AM
The disinformation in this thread really does our American made Remington's reputation good. Now let's see some pics of those hallowed manure fork Brit guns that get blown to hell.
Posted By: PA24 Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 02:41 AM


Originally Posted By: J.R.B.
The disinformation in this thread really does our American made Remington's reputation good. Now let's see some pics of those hallowed manure fork Brit guns that get blown to hell.



Yup, film at 11:00.......

Most educated people I know would have called and got all the facts correct first, knowing they have contact information, or have access to contact information, for the shooter or witnesses, before posting all this misinformation, just my opinion.......Takes all kinds to make a world though......


Posted By: steve white Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 04:13 AM
An STS/AA compression formed hull will develope high pressure a lot faster than a straight wall case...
Posted By: Jawjadawg Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 05:03 AM
Originally Posted By: PA24


Originally Posted By: J.R.B.
The disinformation in this thread really does our American made Remington's reputation good. Now let's see some pics of those hallowed manure fork Brit guns that get blown to hell.



Yup, film at 11:00.......

Most educated people I know would have called and got all the facts correct first, knowing they have contact information, or have access to contact information, for the shooter or witnesses, before posting all this misinformation, just my opinion.......Takes all kinds to make a world though......





Care to elaborate on that statement? The OP offered no "disinformation", only the picture and basic facts. Others offered conjecture based on their own observation of the image at hand. As such, I'm going to assume J.R.B. has inadvertently misapplied his terminology by suggesting that someone was deliberately spreading false or misleading information for some manipulative reason. That, or he just doesn't know what the word means.

The new information was gained regarding the rust on the barrel only after other people observed the discoloration. There was a debate about the presence of the rust and a possible causal relationship, until finally a plausible alternate hypothesis was proposed. This led the OP to seek the further information which, for the time being, appears to at least partially debunk the notion that the barrel failure occurred as a result of some inherent flaw with old, damascus barrels. I'm neither sure how that outcome is a detriment to anything Remington, nor aware of how a more educated person would have proceeded differently. I would even say the collective conversation which has taken place has been helpful and informative, unlike the previous two posts which were only offered with the benefit of a little hindsight and certain malice.
Posted By: Anonymous Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 05:20 AM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
In light of the 'Fingers' thread, I thought I'd go ahead and share this disaster.







A Remington 1894 A grade with 'Oxford 2 S.J.' which has been shot regularly for several years with Gun Club and STS reloads using a MEC 9000. I need to ask the reload recipe. Event occurred on shooting the incomer at Skeet station 7. Bystanders heard an abnormally loud report and actually came to investigate. A physician and PA were in the squad and provided immediate First Aid. Fortunately, the forearm is healing well and without apparent sequelae.

I will be receiving the piece and barrel this week for a post-mortum with careful measurements of wall thicknesses of the remains. Another piece has not been located. The owner quite understandably declined to allow the right barrel to be subjected to destructive testing.
Only two shells remain in the box, and the owner intends to open and weigh the powder in the remaining shells from that reloading session for another possible double charge.
I will post more high resolution ultra-close up images, but several fractures are apparent and they do NOT appear to follow a ribband weld line.
I very much appreciate the opportunity to evaluate the barrels and might send them for MagnaFlux testing. If I had a spare $500 I would ask H.P. White to proof the right barrel.
I am NOT a metallurgist so any other recommendations for testing are most welcome! Is there a way to determine if the wall discoloration is rust/oxidation?



Drew,that certainly does look like interlaminar rust at the break. I am glad that your injury was not more severe. It's interesting that the hull seems to have the impression of the Damascus pattern.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 01:01 PM
WELCOME BACK DEWEY!

Gracias a Dios that appendage is not mine.

As I posted at the start, I most appreciate everyone's observations. My plan is to cautiously use Permatex 81756 Rust Dissolver Gel to remove the (presumably) recent layer of rust from the edges of the fracture. This might however also make identification of interlaminar rust more difficult.
My personal interest is the imprint of the crolle pattern, complete with ribband edge welds, on the plastic case. Apparently over time the barrels became 'acid etched' on the inside?!?
The owner would allow 'dissection' of the piece if someone here with the knowledge and skill would like to do so. I'm a victim of a public education in the great state of Missouri smile , and told him that my hope by posting this thread was that someone more knowledgeable would volunteer to do metallurgical testing.

Possibly I'd accumulate some smarts by simple diffusion if I moved to Utah? wink
Posted By: PA24 Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 01:16 PM


Originally Posted By: Jawjadawg

Care to elaborate on that statement?

The new information was gained regarding the rust on the barrel only after other people observed the discoloration.


Ya think...?...

The OP's initial thread text reeks of sensationalism and is intended for people who revel in speculation, just look at the title and it's enhanced graphics.

Then miraculously this OP posts "I just communicated with the shooter"-----four pages later......like I said, "it takes all kinds to make a world"........Maybe he just had a revelation....?....

Posted By: David Williamson Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 01:41 PM
Doug, I think you are being a little harsh. Drew posted what he thought would bring attention to most readers and if you look at the number of Views, it has.

I know for a fact that I am interested in this post, as I mostly shoot Damascus and Stub Twist barrel hammer guns. I shoot them with low pressure, low velocity, under 8,000 psi and around 1200 fps.
I do check the barrels wall thickness when I get one, and I check it from top rib to bottom rib every 5 inches.

The results from readers looking at what happened to the operators arm and then the barrel hopefully will help in determining what had happened and everyone is entitled to their own diagnosis.
Drew has been working with the owner and like he said, new information will come.

I do believe it was not from failure of the barrel due to previous rusting.

The question that you have to ask, is how did the shell expand in the chamber? I do believe it was an obstruction.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 01:44 PM
Gee Doug. Do you think the fella who owns the gun and said arm found my home address by internet? This all started with a post on the LCSCA Forum, I contacted the owner by e-mail, met with his friend at Vegas, we then talked by phone, and have communicated several times since. Because of the weather back east, the barrels have not yet been shipped so he could change the destination to your place. That of course would require knowledge of your full name and address.

The 'OP' is Drew Hause and I live in Glendale, AZ. You can find my home address and phone # on our website home page
http://www.picturetrail.com/homePage/gracemedicalmissions
Posted By: Anonymous Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 02:16 PM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
WELCOME BACK DEWEY!

Gracias a Dios that appendage is not mine.

As I posted at the start, I most appreciate everyone's observations. My plan is to cautiously use Permatex 81756 Rust Dissolver Gel to remove the (presumably) recent layer of rust from the edges of the fracture. This might however also make identification of interlaminar rust more difficult.
My personal interest is the imprint of the crolle pattern, complete with ribband edge welds, on the plastic case. Apparently over time the barrels became 'acid etched' on the inside?!?
The owner would allow 'dissection' of the piece if someone here with the knowledge and skill would like to do so. I'm a victim of a public education in the great state of Missouri smile , and told him that my hope by posting this thread was that someone more knowledgeable would volunteer to do metallurgical testing.

Possibly I'd accumulate some smarts by simple diffusion if I moved to Utah? wink


Thanks Drew. I'm glad to hear that you were not the victim of that failure. Even if the barrels interior were acid-etched at some point in the past, that impression in the hull seems indicative of excess pressure. Possibly an overload or an obstruction at the chamber mouth? Back when I did refinishing I would heavily varnish the interior surfaces to prevent the acid reaching them. The varnish was easily removed with a patch soaked in lacquer thinner. I wonder about the value of Magnaflux checking, what about cracks or defects that are interlaminar but below the surface?
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 04:14 PM
I agree Dewey, and had a long talk in Vegas with a smith from the NW who does lots of Magnaflux/PD exams of pattern welded barrels. It seems quite good for outside-in defects, but how could it visualize inside-out?
Posted By: xs hedspace Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 01/29/14 05:24 PM
One way to check on the laminations, would be to break off some more bits of that barrel, to see if there are any old corrosion hiding in the steel. Didn't know the thing was stored wet for days.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/01/14 01:37 PM
I want to thank several here for their advice by PMs, and Gloria a Dios there is a commercial metal testing lab nearby that utilizes scanning electron microscope (SEM) for fracture surface examination and high resolution microstructural examination, and energy dispersive x-ray spectroscopy (EDX) for chemical identification and analysis of constituents. They also do MagnaFlux/PD testing.
http://metl.com/services/
I suspect the only limit to what could be done on the remains is my bank account smile and will discuss options with an engineer next week.

If someone else has a piece of pattern welded barrel that you would like to donate to science smile please PM or e-mail me at revdoc2@cox.net


Posted By: lagopus Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/01/14 01:57 PM
Just a thought Drew. I wonder if it worth sending the picture by e-mail, together with all the known facts, to one of either of the British Proof Houses. I've always found the one in Birmingham most helpful and they have been involved in this sort of stuff for over 200 years. I would be certain that they will have experience of exactly the same sort of failure. Ideally they would want the gun and remaining cartridges but I should think that they could offer an educated opinion at least from the picture. They are probably the greatest experts in cases like this and do undertake investigations and provide detailed reports as part of their service to we shooters here. Lagopus.....
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/01/14 02:57 PM
Thank you Mike. To my knowledge this will be the first (modern) technical analysis of a pattern welded barrel failure, and should be the makins' of a good article for DGJ. I'll ask the METL engineer for good images of the testing process and SEM results.

I would very much like to compare the composition of a low grade Belgian Twist, mid-grade Damascus, and high grade Damascus barrel using EDX.
Posted By: 2-piper Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/01/14 04:00 PM
Drew;
I want to personally thank you for posting this & for doing all within your power to try & get to the bottom of what caused this dramatic failure.
Its all too easy for many to simply say "Well its Damascus Ain't it, whatta you expect". In all likelyhood the fact it was Damascus played only a very minor role "If Indeed" a role at all.
Posted By: David Williamson Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/01/14 04:08 PM
+1
Posted By: Buchsemann Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/01/14 04:15 PM
Drew,

It's nice to see that you have found a metals lab nearby and I hope they will be able to assist you in getting to the bottom of the subject "issue" without too much expense. I expect the report to be very interesting and of great value to many, especially of course fans of damascus barrels.

Regards,

Mark
Posted By: craigd Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/01/14 05:15 PM
Originally Posted By: 2-piper
....In all likelyhood the fact it was Damascus played only a very minor role "If Indeed" a role at all.


The failure does seem by the pictures, that the barrel acted like a monosteel. Thanks also Doc Drew.
Posted By: AmarilloMike Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/01/14 05:39 PM
Drew another sign of excessive pressure is that the metal base takes on the shape of the extractors. That is, the extractor is imprinted on the metal base of the hull, both the flat bottom and around the sides.

Any sign of that?

Burrard has many pictures and explanations for sleuthing out the cause of barrel bursts. He was an expert witness in suits for and against gun makers. Do you have that book? If not I will loan you mine. Just PM me your address and I will mail it to you.

Best,


Mike
Posted By: AmarilloMike Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/01/14 06:12 PM
Burrard, Volume III, pg 415: "But in the case of an obstructional burst the really essential evidence is the ring bulge. If there is a ring bulge, there must have been an obstruction; and the absence of a ring bulge is conclusive proof that there could not have been an obstruction."

Burrard, Volume III, pg 415: "But if the burst occurred at the breech, and was the direct result of a high pressure, confirmatory evidence will be found in the appearance of the brass head of the cartridge which caused the accident. For it is utterly impossible for a very high pressure to be developed without it leaving its mark on the fired case"
Posted By: Phunter Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/01/14 06:22 PM
Keep up the good work!
Posted By: Noble Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/01/14 09:09 PM
In my humble opinion, it's too soon to say with confidence that the hull shows impressions of the ribband and damascus pattern. The striations seen on the hull could be scratches that are from the shell being removed from the barrel. Because the hull is also ruptured, it could have required turning the case while manually extracting it from the barrel. The way the hull is positioned in the picture is not necessarily how it was at the time of the failure. The owner may not have any idea if the case was removed and then reinserted in a different orientation, since the gun was out of his possession for several days. Only after close examination by an expert will we be sure.
Posted By: Mark Larson Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/02/14 02:26 AM
The relative rarity of an occurrence like this is evidenced by the amount of interest in this thread. I for one have never seen a barrel burst, damascus or otherwise, and I hope I never do. Like everyone else, I'll be interested to hear the final autopsy. Sure seems like an overload to me, but I'm no expert. Hard to imagine that level of failure happening from an 8k psi load though, and with that much barrel wall thickness evident.
Posted By: wannagohunting Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/02/14 04:41 AM
Drew, Thanks for all your efforts to seek answers to such problems. I know your intentions are to keep us safe shooting the old guns. It appears you are spending a bit of your personal monies to pay for research in this matter. I am a little strapped these days but I would sure as hell send ya a check for 20 bucks or so to contribute to find the answers. and I am sure many others would do the same or more. Would you be so unselfish to accept it?
By the way to those who do not know Drew he has measured many sets of my barrels with his equipment and absolutely would not accept a dime from me.
Thanks again Drew. I don't care what everyone else says about you behind your back. "I think your alright"
Posted By: wannagohunting Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/02/14 04:43 AM
Drew, if you are a millionaire please disregard my last post.
Thanks,
Dale
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/02/14 01:15 PM
Thanks Dale. I doubt if the fellas at METL got one of these machines at Home Depot http://metl.com/services/sem/
but hope to negotiate an "in the interest of science and no lawyers are involved" discount smile There is no fee schedule on the website.

Just think what we could have done with the cut-off ends of all those Damascus barrels over the years frown

Posted By: AmarilloMike Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/02/14 06:42 PM
Burrard, Volume III, The Modern Shotgun







Posted By: Dick_dup1 Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/03/14 12:30 AM
By the very nature of the manufacturing process, pattern welded barrels can not be NDE tested with definitive results by any NDE process.
To attempt a Metallurgical examination is. waste of time in my opinion and for what end? The first thing that comes to mind with a re-load is of course an error in reloading. But we are talking about a 100+ year old barrel of to me of a dubious manufacturing process.
Put all these factors together and it's a recipe for disaster.
As to credentials, my degrees may be in Nuclear Engineering but I spent my Graduate years studying Metallurgy. I have investigated as Team Leader a number of Metallurgical Failures in the Nuclear Industry.
-Dick
Posted By: keith Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/03/14 02:08 AM
Originally Posted By: Dick_dup1
The first thing that comes to mind with a re-load is of course an error in reloading. But we are talking about a 100+ year old barrel of to me of a dubious manufacturing process.
Put all these factors together and it's a recipe for disaster.


Can we assume that the "dubious manufacturing process" of Damascus barrel making might have gained some credibility after over 100 years of use... especially considering that so many of these guns continued to be used long after the low pressure ammunition they were designed to digest was no longer generally available? And don't these barrels continue to this day to withstand nitro-proof tests in nations which still require proof testing? That ought to count for something, especially considering that even modern steels can still be rolled with inclusions which could compromise their integrity. It would be very interesting to see accumulated data from the European Proof Houses to gain an understanding of what guns fail, and why. I'll agree that an error in reloading was the most likely culprit that blew up this Remington.

Going back through this thread, I noticed that the 12 ga. A.J. Aubrey pictured on page 2, that likely blew up due to a 20 ga. shell being stuck in the forcing cone, has very similar oxidation and bare metal along the fracture as the Remington. I still believe that is just fresh bare metal which quickly oxidized after the blow-ups.
Posted By: Dave Katt Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/03/14 02:43 AM
In a previous job of 12 yrs.of work, I was a machinist. You would not believe the inclusions in metal I would uncover while milling or turning. It was not an everyday occurrence, but often enough.

Posted By: RMC Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/03/14 04:23 AM
Drew, If you look in your files you have a photo of my Baker with a blown damascus barrel that had an identical rupture as shown in Mikes gun. By coincidence, my brother replaced the stock this fall on the gun at issue and the guy who sold Mike the stock has in his possession my blown Baker barrel. The three of us looked at Mikes gun when my brother had it and thought it a well preserved gun. 26" factory barrels with F/F chokes intact. No honing apparent. Action was a small frame Remington. Like Mikes incident, we used a light reload [ 8,500 psi, Clays pwdr. 7/8 once shot ] with STS hulls. Might post the Baker photo to show similarities of the damage. Mikes shooting team are veteran vintage sxs shooters and consistent Vintage Cup winners. Thankfully one was a DR. All careful with loads and shooting protocol. Blessed that the injury was not more severe. Randy
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/03/14 02:14 PM
Randy's brother's barrel. The forward edge of the burst measured .090" and the breech edge was .112". More pics here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/17546456



The shell with imprint of the extractor



Modern fluid steel chamber blow-out



Shell remains



And Gracias a Dios I've got a Smith barrel on the way for evaluation also!! Please look in the back of your safes - gotta be a blown up JABC Twist barrel to donate to science smile

In addition to the blow-up analysis, my real hope is to find a non-destructive method to evaluate barrel integrity.

Posted By: builder Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/03/14 03:18 PM
I vaguely recall we had a member here who blew up his barrel, maybe three or so years ago. It was a reload and when he felt better, he checked his reloading bench and found that he had used the wrong powder which he had left on his bench (last time he did that)or he had mixed powders somehow. Someone may recall better or be able to find the old thread.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/03/14 04:55 PM
PROGRESS! smile

I've been in contact with Adam W. Haskins, a Metallurgist at METL and will be meeting this week to talk through 1. what I hope to accomplish, 2. what test would be best, and 3. how much this will all cost frown
Posted By: MarketHunter Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/03/14 08:17 PM
Paul Harm was the gentleman with the gun blown to the wrong powder being used.
Posted By: Researcher Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/04/14 01:04 AM
Quote:
... especially considering that so many of these guns continued to be used long after the low pressure ammunition they were designed to digest was no longer generally available?


FWIW, the Remington Hammerless Doubles were said to be "guaranteed for nitro powders" from their introduction in 1894. Up to at least 1905, the heaviest loads available from our North American ammunition companies in the 12-gauge 2 5/8 inch paper shells was 3 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder pushing 1 1/4 ounces of shot. By 1910, our loading companies backed off the loads offered in the 2 5/8 inch paper shells to a max of 1 1/8 ounce loads, and one needed to go to the 2 3/4 inch or longer shells to get the 1 1/4 ounce loads. A surviving hang tag for a 1908 vintage Remington KE-Grade says it was targetted with a UMC Nitro Club shell 2 5/8 inch, load X8, with 24 Grains Infallible and 1 1/4 ounces of shot. I don't have access to a 1908 UMC catalogue, but the January 1907, and June 1909, shows load X8 to be 24 grains of Infallible pushing 1 1/4ounces of shot, and coming only in a 2 3/4 inch Nitro Club shell?!?

The heaviest smokeless powder loads offered in the 2 3/4 inch and longer 12-gauge paper shells were 3 1/2 drams of bulk smokeless powder, or 28-grains of dense smokeless powders such as Infallible or Ballistite, pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot.







According to a couple of DuPont Smokeless Shotgun Powders booklets I have in my collection, these were quite stout loads, the various bulk powders going 11,700 to 11,800 pounds and the 28-grains of Ballistite a whopping 12,600 pounds.

Many, many lighter loads were offered, but we "know" that North American Nimrods being as they are, that plenty of them were loading their guns up with the heaviest loads available.

When progressive burning powders, developed during WW-I, were applied to shotshells, Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X loads leading the way in 1922, they pushed that 1 1/4 ounces of shot out of a 2 3/4 inch 12-gauge paper shotshell at considerably higher velocity, and actually lower pressures than the old bulk or dense smokeless powders were capable of.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/06/14 06:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
PROGRESS! smile

I've been in contact with Adam W. Haskins, a Metallurgist at METL and will be meeting this week to talk through 1. what I hope to accomplish, 2. what test would be best, and 3. how much this will all cost frown


Drew,
one concern would be how the blown barrel has been treated since the event. If it has been allowed to rust, this negates some types of evaluation. If it has been well preserved and is very recent, a photomicrograph may yield some insight, especially if an initiation point can be determined. If the barrel has been well preserved and is a recent event, rust or slag/oxidation on the fracture surface could mean a pre-existing crack or manufacturing defect.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: CAUTION: Graphic Blow Up Injury - 02/06/14 08:09 PM
The rust on the original pics was obviously fresh, and came right off Chuck



Anxious to talk through options with the Metallurgist on Monday, and excited that, to my knowledge, this will be the first opportunity to obtain high tech images of a pattern welded barrel wall.

One assessment of great importance can probably be made already; THE FRACTURES DID NOT OCCUR AT THE RIBBAND WELD LINES. So much for the 'it'll unwind like a spring' mythology.
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