My son has shot a BB gun for awhile but I'm ready to start him on a shotgun I think. I've been waiting until he was big enough to shoot a 20 gauge - as my personal opinion would be that a 410 doesn't really qualify as a true gun. But he's 10 years old and big enough to handle a 20 now I think.

I have gone back and forth on whether to buy him a double gun (O/U) or a single barrel gun. In terms of safety and ease of use - which do you think is better for a kid. I've always thought double guns were much safer in the field. However I could also start him on a pump with 1 or 2 shells at a time. Would like something he can use for a few years though. I'm going back and forth on this and just thought I'd get some other opinions from guys that have been there already.

I would start him with a 410 or a 28 gauge. Probably O/U as they are plentiful and relatively cheap. Or the CZ Bobwhite in one of those gauges. I would get a light weight gun 6 pounds or less. I would cut down the stock and save the drop off. I would add incremental length as he grows.

The singleshot hammerguns (like a Winchester 37) are hard for a child to cock in time to shoot a flushing bird. Savage made a singleshot hammerless that would be good for a child.

When the ten year old gets the gun it should have cylinder or skeet chokes in it.

My bias is toward guns used in hunting flushing birds over pointing dogs. If he is going to primarily hunt geese and ducks then probably not good recommendations.

Best,

Mike

Michael McIntosh talks about this subject extensively in his book: More Shotguns and Shooting. He advised against a 410, as its pattern is so poor. He seemed to lean toward a 28 gauge. More Shotguns and Shooting has a lot of helpful tips on getting new shooters started.

Baikal makes youth model single shots. They are hammerless and are in .410 and 20 gauge. If you look at the specs, the weight is listed at 9 lbs. This is an error of translation from the Russian. My full sized adult version in 20 gauge weighs 5.4 lbs. Cheaperthandirt offers them and the costs run from $91-140. I haven't found another vendor. Shipping is either free or $11 to your FFL holder depending on which warehouse guns ship from. Baikal is marketed by USSG, Inc.

Mossberg makes several youth model pumps in .410 and 20 gauge. There is a mini series and a youth series. The guns come with sectioned stocks so the lop can be reduced or increased simply by unscrewing the pad and adding subtracting sections. The Super Bantam is one such model which comes with a certificate to buy at discount the adult stock once the child grows.

I taught a young boy shotgunning with an old Beretta gas operated auto. I handloaded 12 gauge rounds with 7/8 oz. loads. I cut the stock off and added the section back as he grew. Gil

This is just me. All kids are different.

I raised three boys to become responsible safe (knock on wood) shooters and hunters. If your boy has been used to a BB gun a .410 will be a 'real gun' to him even if not to you. For safety I started mine with single shots. My favorite is the Savage model 220 because it is hammerless with a tang safety making the transition to a double practically seamless. Find one on GunBroker.

I tried to move my boys up to a 20ga too quickly and they let me know they were afraid of it. When you do move up to a 20ga make it a double or a restricted capacity pump; the extra weight will
offset the increased recoil.

Good luck, do it right and you will have the best hunting buddy you will ever find!...Geo

I feel that much better lifelong gun safety can be learned with a pump gun. The adult must be diligent when supervising barrel direction at all times and the child will pick up the concept that the gun muzzle is always a risk. With a break apart gun, the mind releases some of those safety thoughts as soon as the gun is broken open. Early success on targets will come much easier with a 20 or 28 than a 410. A pump gun wont have as severe of recoil as a double. Auto loaders can be frustrating for parent and child when they dont work right.

In reference to 410s I learned to shoot with one - a cheap Spanish SxS my older brother bought for me. I killed lots of game with it including quail, dove, pheasant, jackrabbits and cottontails. As I grew up on an irrigated farm I had lots of opportunity also. I loaned it to my son at the appropriate age and then passed it on to a friend for his sons. I highly recommend 410s as first guns.

Best,

Mike

I know I'm going to come across as a heretic here but I'd recommend a Remington** 1100 Light 20. I believe Remington also offers a "youth" stock for this that can easily be replaced with a longer stock later.
Another reason for this recommendation is an 1100 is a noticeably light kicker which to me is a big advantage when starting a youngster shotgun shooting.
Jim

**If these are no longer made you will have to look for a used example.

I tried just about everything, and I started my son too young, but if I had it to do over again I would start with what he has now.
I bought an older Uggie SxS and bobbed both ends. The guns are cheap so I didn't feel bad butchering it and they are as simple and reliable as a hammer. Open chokes don't hurt for a kid just learning, so I cut the barrels to 25" and left them cylinder, I may jug choke them as he gets older. My plan is to add progressively longer recoil pads as my son grows. There are plenty of older SxS and O/U guns that would fit the bill.
I would suggest buying a 12 gauge gun, and using subgauge inserts to fire 28 or 20 gauge shells until they are no longer needed. The weight of a 12 gauge gun will help negate recoil. As long as the barrels were cut and the gun still had decent balance a little extra weight was OK, at least for my son.
It is much easier to see that a break open gun is open and safe than a pump or auto. CJ started bird hunting with me this year and he carries the gun open until the dog goes on point. I don't feel as comfortable about the pump, and I would be even more worried about an automatic. The self resetting safety on the break open gun is also a comfort.

Good luck to you and your boy.
CHAZ

A clays shooting instructor told me that he likes to start women and children off with an 1100 20 gauge, cut butt and barrel cut to 24" or so.

Not all 1100 20s are created equal. My second gun was a brand new 1100 20 gauge built on a twelve frame given to me by my father. It weighs 7-3/4 pounds (I still have it). He gave it to me when I was twelve and I didn't hit anything for three years. It was much too heavy for a twelve year old.

A friend started his twin boys at about age 7 with a .410 SxS on stationary targets (cans, melons, etc.) to get them used to the noise and recoil and to help them realize the damage a shotgun can do. They tried the .410 on doves with little success and then he bought them Yildiz 20ga O/Us when they were able to handle those. They are happy and safe hunters now. We decided that a break action gun was the safest way to go. Started another seven year old with a .410 last season, and it seemed to work well. This kid is a bit smaller so his first hunting gun may be a 28ga. When I was a kid, my Dad started me with a .410 bolt action and I think it made me a better field shot than if I had started with a larger bore or something with a quicker second shot.

I've introduced several thousand young people to firearms.
Specifically, because he is a male, his physical changes in the next 5 years make choosing a gun for today a point to consider.

If you wish to keep changing guns as he develops, then at our club we would start him on a single barrel 20 w/ sub sonic rounds if he was smaller. When he could dependably hit low 7 and unload/reload the firearm without interference from his "coach", we'd add complexity by moving him to a pump 20, but single cartridge at a time. If he is able to comfortably operate the 5 lb pumps, depending on physical strength, we may/may not move him up to one of the club Beretta 20's. Heck, some boys go from 70lb noodles to little linebackers in 6 months.

Our keys being, size and strength, safety awareness and mechanical aptitude in handling, and success on hitting simple targets. You need all three legs of the stool before we move a youngster into more than one cartridge.

The Remmy 1100 20's weigh far too much for 90% of our young shooters. We've had dozens fail to operate right out of the box (they are a common youth raffle gun) at the club. It's an immense disappointment to the lucky kid that won one, when it won't work, and has to be sent to a service center before they even get to use it.

Because deer hunting is really why most of our youth are at their hunter safety training, the Mossberg 500 youth 20 has become a popular (and liquid) firearm, because they come with a coupon for an adult stock, they can have deer sights added easily, and they have a youth stock that is shaped for a youth, not an adult that is short. They are very accurate with slugs, and are steel ready for introduction to waterfowling.

Whatever you do, it has to be fun, and safe.
We had a tragedy just a couple years ago here in MI.

McIntosh notwithstanding, there is nothing wrong with starting a kid on a .410 for wingshooting. My grandson, who has moved up to a LT 20 1100 now, shot a Stoeger Uplander .410 for three seasons on doves (very successfully), beginning at age 8. If he is 10 already, and is not sensitive to recoil or muzzle blast, the LT 20 would be great to start him on.

As to the safety issue, I strongly recommend a double, with an automatic safety. No pump or jammamatic has that. The automatic feature is not a necessity, but is an extra margin of safety for him until it is deeply ingrained to check the safety himself. I don't care for automatic safeties myself, but made sure my grandson's doubles had them.

The poor patterning of the .410 is terribly overexaggerated, IMO. If it weren't how could you explain this, a 9 yr. old with only two prior dove shoots under his belt, using 1/2 oz. loads? There is more to teaching a kid to hunt than teaching him to shoot. Judging when a dove is within .410 range is a great way to start, I think.

2010 season with the .410



2013 season with the LT 20



Not much difference is there?

SRH

My son is 11 now, and although he is quite accomplished at hunting for his age, I have not started him with a shotgun yet, due to his size.

I have a dear friend who owns a large shooting complex, and he is heavily involved with 4H and Boy Scouts using his facility. He recommended waiting until a child weighs at least 80 pounds, otherwise the recoil from even a lightly loaded 20 gauge gas operated automatic can be problematic.

The last thing I want to do is put him off.

I have noticed, also, that very good hearing protection is a must. Childrens' hearing is very sensitive. I have my son wear earplugs inside his earmuffs when practicing, and he always puts at least earmuffs on before shooting any game (at his insistence).

There is a simple way to keep a kid from being afraid of recoil, that I used with my sons and, now, with my grandsons. My youngest son, whose sons are pictured above, was shooting a Ruger No. 3 .45-70, with 300 grain bullets, off the bench when he was only 10 years old. Never once did he mention the recoil, and it was there. Grown men would wince when he shot it, look at me questioningly, and Jonathan would say, "Can I shoot it again, Daddy?"

SRH

I'm in the same boat and appreciate all the advice and experiences being shared here. My 10 year son has just graduated from an airgun to a .22, but I'm reluctant to move to a shotgun yet.

I bought a youth model NEF/H&R Pardner 20 ga. single shot, but having first fired it myself I feel it makes for a terrible "youth gun" because it kicks like a little mule. I won't let him shoot it until I've had a chance to load up and test some light rounds.

My reading on this subject has shown a common theme; that we tend to push our young ones to shoot too much gun before they are ready, then having to work to help them overcome their gun shyness.

Every time this subject comes up on internet forums people seem to be set on handing a 10 yr old kid a 20ga right off the bat and seem to be more worried about the kid's success in killing game or hitting targets than the kid having fun and learning gun handling skills and trigger control.

My experience is that a 6 lb 20ga or even 28ga that is well under 6 lbs will whack me hard enough that I start to flinch.

On the 410, I've watched a number of kids and adults start with them. All of them that I can recall, have become very good shooters. At least one of them is a competitive skeet shooter and she shoots her first 410 regularly after over 10 yrs. An exceptionally small 10 yr old girl was given a CZ o/u 410 that was cut down in the barrels and stock. She used to shoot with her grandpa and his friends and hold her own in the 22-24 scores.

The kids will figure out how to hit something if you don't beat them to death with a sharp recoiling gun.

The recoil suffered because of light, fixed breech guns can be reduced by lighter loads. This is where handloading can pay off.

A big plus, IMO, to starting a kid hunting bids with a .410 is the value of teaching them when a bird is in range. I taught Jackson that 20 yards was his outside range for a dove. He learned to know when a dove was within range because I was sitting by him and I'd tell him when it was and wasn't. A great benefit to that is that when they "graduate" to a bigger gun they are not nearly as likely to be sky busters, shooting at birds too far. Let a kid "accidentally" kill a dove with a 20 at 45 yards and he is ruined. It's a hard habit for a youngster to break and much better to teach 'me young how to sit still, wait and be patient. Most poor dove shooters I have known try to kill them too far.

SRH

Yes GLS. You are correct.
We burn a pallet of donated low recoil loads every year.
Hard to get the big 3 to donate 28's and 410's.

I view this question (since the young man isn't sitting here) as a statistical guess. What others do in their specific circumstances is perfect for them.

Our typical student is 12, now because of legislation, as young as 9. They can barely shoulder the shotgun. Weight forward semi's are impossible for the youngest. Taking any kind of comfortable stance with the shotgun is also difficult. It pretty much limits the "coaches" to the small single shot platforms with soft recoil pads.
But we focus on helping a child to "hit", hoping to kindle enthusiasm. We are always mindful that it must be fun and immediately rewarding.

This just an aside, but I often wonder if the underlying question for many people could be more accurately written as, "How do I help my child to become my hunting buddy?" It's a big and valid question, especially in non-custodial situations.

We look at it like, 1st it has to be immediate fun. 2nd, Daddy HAS TO SHOW PRIDE TOWARD THE YOUNGSTER'S ACCOMPLISHMENT.
3rd, Daddy has to offer the carrot that if you do well, you can come along with the guys. (Including all aspects of safety) Children have an innate desire to please. We rely on it to embed safe gun handling.
For many, those 3 things create a budding outdoor enthusiast, and a safe hunting buddy.

Recoil becomes a deep background issue.

Any of those pieces absent, probably not. YMMV

That is an excellent post, CZ. I agree. The first shot Jackson ever tried at a flying target was a clay bird off an automatic trap that I had set up. He was 8 yrs. old and had the Stoeger Uplander .410. He smoked the very first bird off the trap! He was pleased, but I was ecstatic. I made a big deal over it because it WAS a big deal, for an 8 yr. old. He's never slowed up since. At 12 years old he can outshoot most of the men on the dove field today.

SRH

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Healthy case of good shooting genes.

I received my first shotgun at age 12. A 410 single 3" hammer gun. I would recommend the same In this instance as it will teach many good habits. safty,good marksmanship,and the light recoil will help to prevent bad habits. it will also be in size to his physical demensions and easy to carry. And cheaper to shoot. IMHO If only we all could return to yesterdays. no matter what the final outcome is just enjoy the experience Pilgrim

It is so hard with all the variables in the size of the young shooter, that can handle a shotgun.When my daughter was 12,she wanted to shoot. I didn't want to ruin her with recoil and failure to break any clay. My choice was to get enough shot in the air to help her break some clay.I personally always felt that a 410 was almost an experts gun, not a beginners gun. The experience of some here says I was wrong. I did buy her a Rem.1100 in 20 ga.on the older 12ga. frame.With her strength plus the lower recoil loads I loaded for her,it proved to be the perfect set up for her strength and abilities. A friend of mine wanted to get his 12 yr.old brother in-law shooting. Bought him a break open single shot 20ga. That light weight 20ga. was absolutely punishing for him,the gifted and me.he was much better with light loads in a 12ga. pump.

I was started on a .410 hammergun. The .410 part was not so bad. Started out shooting squirrels and rabbits. However, the hammer--as mentioned previously--can be a problem for a kid. Savage made a nice hammerless single, the Model 220. Tang safety, just like a double. I'd go with a 20 and stick with 3/4 oz loads. Not much recoil.

Best shotgun, IMO, is a youth model Remington 1100 in 20 gauge. Soft recoil and easy to handle. I had a bunch of Boy Scouts shooting them this weekend. Little guys who had never fired a gun. They loved it.

Thanks for all the advice guys - lots of different opinions to consider here.

I'll also chime in for the Rem. 1100 Lwt. 20 with the 23" barrel and 3/4 oz. loads. I've used a stock-shortened one of these for years with both ladies and youth instruction and they suit well... unless the kid is especially small in stature when they begin. My gun continues to function well when cleaned properly, and have had no issues there. For safety reasons, students are always handed just one shell at a time for loading, and the skeet (screw-in) choke has them hitting clays in short order.

As for the .410 being a good starting gun, no argument here as my Win. M42 with modified choke (1/2 oz. - 9's) throws some impressive patterns @ 25 yards with good density in a 26-29" spread. The more open choke in a .410 might just be the ticket for the smaller kids that would have difficulty with the slightly heavier semi-auto.

rob

I think Chuck's point concerning .410s is spot-on. My son broke his first target (H7) two weeks before he turned 7 using a Win M-20 with full choke. Before we got a 20 ga 391 Y-model he had broken every skeet single presentation with the M-20...all of them.

Starting with the .410 did not hurt him. But I think a useful distinction is made between starter guns and beginner guns. The former are appropriate for intermittent familiarization with recoil, stationary targets, non-squadded non-competition flying clays, and for reinforcement of safe handling. The beginner's gun is what I want when it is time to progress as a shooter, when volume practice lies ahead, when contemplating shooting with squads. I don't think a .410 fits the bill there.

The question here, for me, is age 10 is at the tail end of "starter", and maybe too soon for the serious "beginner". Sounds like GW's son can be more accurately placed in the "beginner" category, though.

So I would suggest a 20 ga 391 or 1100 with shortened field stock. I think the arguments against repeaters have validity only in a context I would never permit, ie., unsupervised use. We use 20 ga autos for our youth shooting group, and the recoil mitigation benefits greatly outweigh any break-open action advantages.

Sam

I instruct juniors and ladies and have a pair of Remington 1100s in 28 ga. Much less recoil than the 20 ga 1100 with Wally World 20 ga shells. I have a MEC 600 set up for 28 ga 3/4 oz shot and a mild load of Unique. Some of the kids come over to my farm on Saturday and reload shells for themselves to shoot on the Sunday. The 28 ga 1100 with a skeet tube is easy for the kids to hit with and gain some confidence. Reread the latter sentence.
The worst gun to buy a youngster is the Remington 870 Junior pump in 20 ga. I have seen small boys break into tears the recoil is so severe. In fact, I have asked a parent to please put that 870 junior 20 ga back into his truck and let the kid shoot one of my 28 ga 1100s.

While I normally prefer the safety aspect of a break open gun (easier for everyone to tell it's unloaded), for new shooters if organized sporting clay shooting is going to be on the agenda my vote goes to a 20 gauge gas operated autoloader & particularly if the shooter is of small stature as most young shooters are.

Several times I have been on a sporting clays squad where small statured shooters (one was an adult woman & the others were children) shooting break open guns could not open the gun & have the bbls clear the bar across the front of the shooting station & at some point in the round they turned around and faced the squad to open the gun.

This is an extremely dangerous situation & in the case of the woman shooter she had only fired one bbl & had a live round in the other bbl with the gun pointed directly at the squad.


Obviously these are cases of extremely poor gun handling, lack of concentration & or proper training & supervision but the point is that they were set up to fail with guns that they couldn't safely handle in a situation they were put into.

I think they would have been much better served by a well maintained 20 ga autoloader both from the aspects of ease of safe handling & lower perceived recoil. I say well maintained because I've observed malfunctioning auto loaders bringing up other unsafe gun handling issues & not always from children or novice shooters.

Also, I would consider a .410 of any type to be a handicap for a young shooter. I might consider a 28 ga but I see no advantage over a 20 ga with light loads.

Put me in the Model 1100 20 ga. column. Put a good Kick-Eze (sp) pad on it and the kid will have a shotgun with low recoil that he can use for everything but ducks & geese. Start him off on the Skeet field at low seven and progress from there. He'll get excited about hitting targets and before you know it he'll be out shooting dad.

Mike the Bear says it all.
1100 20 Ga with a kick-Eez.
I, for one believe McIntosh was right when he said ".410 is a miserable [censored] of a gun."
I have a 28 Gauge I start kids on. It is head and shoulders better than a dang .410.
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

At 7 I would stay with the .410 and enjoy the experience. He will enjoy the 4 wheeler and the camo probably ore than the shooting of wild game ...... let him shoot a dove n the tree or cans on the ground..

If you go with a 20 in anything other than a Semi-Auto I recommend Fiocchi Trainer Loads or a hand loaded equivalent.

I started my kids and grand kids on a sxs 20ga using very light hand loads at first to make sure recoil wasn't a problem for them. Also, chose to wait until they were large enough and strong enough to handle a 6 lb gun before moving to shotguns from .22s and .222 rifles. By the second season they were ready to handle the commercial 20ga light loads or my quail and dove loads of 3/4oz.

Because I learned on a H&R hammer single 16ga which weighed about 5lbs and the highest brass duck loads my dad could find it was well established recoil is a factor.

Was the reason for your lack of success the gun or that you had not begun your shooting lessons with Mr. Wood? A goo teacher makes all the difference in the world.

OK - I've spent an hour looking for an 1100 LT 20 youth model online and it seems they don't exist. Discontinued years ago and I can't find one listed on any of the auction sites. I can find a youth stock for sale - I assume I can put that on a regular 1100. Do the youth models ever come up for sale?

I purchased a 20g. Charles Daly Semi Auto (gas)youth gun in black with 20 or 22" barrels and changeable chokes (it uses
Remington chokes). It weighs 5 1/4 lbs. I purchased it for my late wife who found the weight of other guns to be too much for her to handle well. I loaded light 7/8 loads and she shot it well. I have since used the gun to introduce several women to shotgun shooting and it has worked well for them. Recently, my grandson, who is short and slim for his age successfully used that gun to pass his hunting test here in NJ. He is ten. It is now his gun and he shoots it well hitting crossing targets. Some youths are big and strong and some not. The light weight and reduced recoil of a semi is what I was after. For my grandson, I started with 3/4 ounce loads loading only one at a time.

The Charles Daly may not last as long as a Remington 1100 but I bought it new for around $300 and it has served well with no problems. I am sure if it was still mine, when I no longer needed it I could have gotten more than half my initial investment back so I am happy I bought it for this particular purpose.

Yes they do:
But they are in high demand for obvious reasons. You'll just have to be patient and persistent and I'm sure you'll find one.
Jim

Good advice!

This why I expressed there are so many variables for the reason of child size and there fore gun choice. My daughter was/is tall. At 12, she was 5'10". Because of her size, I did choose the standard 20 ga Rem. 1100. Not only could she shoot it well, she really doesn't need another gun for size or ga. requirements, unless she wants it. I bought 2 barrels for the gun. Came with a 26" skeet and bought a 28" vent rib mod. barrel.

Get a 20ga 870.

My suggestion is to start new shooters with a semi auto that fits them in 12 gauge using 1 1/8 oz shot. When I first heard this I thought that it would be too much gun for youth. "Youth" in this instance would be Boy Scouts shooting the Shotgun Shooting Merit Badge. The requirement is that the youth hit 12 out of 25 targets thrown twice. I was able to get a very high percentage of youth to meet this requirement. The rational that I was told is that the semi auto reduces the recoil while 1 1/8 oz shot increases the likelihood of success.
At a coaches conference held at the Olympic Training Center I asked the shotgun coaches in attendance what they felt was the best gun/ammo combination for that purpose and they agreed that the 12 gauge semi auto was the way to go.
Accordingly I would suggest an old Browning A5 ( the Scouts all seemed to prefer that gun)
By the way, I feel that 1 oz shot out of a light 20 kicks more than 1 1/8 oz shot out of a 12

A 1 oz load in a 20ga to shoot targets? Its not a load that meets the rules. It seems excessive.

There's a young man (15) in the neighborhood that I'm going to try to help introduce to the shooting sports (grandpa is an NRA instructor, but is two states away). I had been reading this topic with interest, and had asked my friend The Stock Doctor for some advice. He said if the Gunbroker deal I was following didn't work out, he had a Remington Model 58 in 16 ga with screw in chokes, and a dial or lever or something that allowed one to shift between hotter or milder loads. Said it cycled 2 1/2" loads like a dream. Since I have a 3/4 oz low pressure 2 1/2" load for my doubles, sounded like a plan for a 6lb 14oz auto.

Looks like I can get a synthetic stock fairly cheap, cut that to fit, leaving the original alone to re-install as he grows.

Then Dennis said, "You've even shot it."

Huh?

Yep, when I was at Flatwater two years ago. You shot it, said it was nice, and handed it back saying "but I don't shoot autos." **

Dennis says it is packaged up and ready to go. Looking forward to the journey.


**Excepting cranes and turkeys

I see Remington is now making an 11-87 youth model. Anyone have any experience with these?
After reading this thread I have changed my mind about the 28 ga. Ugartechea bought for my grandchild's starter gun. Should have been thinking gas operated 20. Still time to get it right, he's only 13 months. Not trying to rush the boy, just afraid I might not be around when he gets ready for his first shotgun.

The only reason I didn't recommend the 1187 Youth model waaay back in this thread is cost. Perhaps $699 is nothing to some of the participants here but I suspect this is not the case with the majority.
My original thought was to shop around for a good deal on a Youth 1100 as this should be cost effective.
However; If this gun is going to be used by multiple youths the cost can be amortized and an 1187 might make economic sense here.
Jim