Hello! Does anyone have info on a belgium made hammerless, the model is printed in gold, REVE 5.

Hello six4,

Welcome to the board. With just a model it is impossible to tell anything about a shotgun. What is really needed are pictures of the gun. If you take pictures, be sure to include pictures of the proof marks. With most Belgian guns it will be possible to tell you a lot more.

Here is the FAQ for posting pictures here.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...0df792#Post6339

Pete

Six4, try this site: http://www.littlegun.be
Pete

Belgium Double Pics http://picasaweb.google.com/tomdavis.cracker/BelgiumDouble 12 gauge 26 1/2 barrels.

From your pictures:
* over H - controller of proof Christophe Woit 1938-1968
* over R - controller of proof Sylvain Wagemans 1951-1965
C year of proof 1964
65mm chamber length = 2.5"
20.6 is the bore .811"
lion over the PV indicates nitro proof. In use 1898-1968
Crown over ELG with star at bottom, acceptance of proof at Liège, 1893-1968.

L'Abeille is not a Belgian gun maker that I can find. The Paris address on the barrel would seem to me that L'Abeille may be (or had been) more of an LL Bean rather than a gun maker.

I do find it interesting that there is no makers trademark. Perhaps on the reciever flats.

So, you have a relatively modern short chambered gun.

Pete

Pete I wonder if this gun could have been made in 1924. The B= 65mm over 20.6 was used from 1994 to 1924, the 20.6 indicates chamber diameter. The c could be a small case c for 1924. The sticker is the controller marks, as you say there is only these 2 people listed in the data I have. If we could see the barrel weight it might clear it up as there was also a change there in 1924. Also like you say a makers mark might help. Jim A.

James-l

Yes the marks are inconsistent. I was going on the controller's because the C should be a c. I can't figure why they would produce a gun in the '60s with 65mm chambers. Maybe it is a French thing. I just don't know.

Pete

The lady i got it from was in her 80's, said her grandfather had it to start with. Thanks
guys!

Definitely 1924 or earlier, otherwise you would not have 12 over a C in a diamond. It would be 12-65 inside a sort of capital C if it were later than 1924.

L'abeille means "bee" in French; reve is dream. So somebody had 5 dreams about bees???

I've seen guns marked L'abeille before but don't know anything about the maker. Not at all unusual to find Belgian guns sold by French shops, even though France had its own very active gun industry. I've currently got a Belgian 16 that has a Paris address (C. Mode) on the barrels.

Any ideal of a value?

I believe this is an early gun. The opening lever appears to follow the Westley Richards pre-Scott spindle pattern. Even the 1890's/early 1900's is late for this pattern. Sideplated boxlock?

SWAG based on photos so far. Brand Value five (BV5) for unknown Continental maker. Original Quality grade five (OQ5) for a best quality boxlock - this strikes me as a top 'o the heap boxlock of its day. Current Condition level looks to be about four (heavily used, but not abused = CC4). BV5-OQ5-CC4 = $600. Knock off a couple of hundred if it is an extractor gun (no ejectors). Add a couple of hundred it it is in better condition than I see from the photos or if it is of higher grade than I see. Add $400 if it is both higher grade and better condition.

Larry,

An earlier date would make sense because of the chamber. However, if the C is really a 1924 date stamp, then we have 2 controller's stamps that are undocumented. Is this common? The early 1900's controller stamps I have seen have all been things like *AE, ie double letters. There is no evidence in the proof marks of a later reproofing that I can see.

I do find what is missing interesting. Mainly the barrel weight is not seen anywhere that I can tell.

Pete

Pete, I don't believe our list of controllers is complete. If you have the same one that I have from the Viola website it doesn't list any controllers before 1924. I have a Belgian sidelock that I am pretty sure was made before WW1. It has a * over S contollers mark and no date stamp. I would think the smallcase c date stamp pretty much dates this gun to 1924.

Pete, I trust the controller's marks and the date stamps far less than I trust the proofmarks. From everything I've read, you simply would not see the 12 over C in a diamond on a post-1924 Belgian gun. I've seen conflicts on other Belgian guns between what's listed either for controller's stamp or date stamp and the gauge over C versus gauge-chamber length mark, the latter of which was adopted on June 30, 1924, and is in use right up to the present.

If your L'Abielle grade 5 is like mine, and it looks like mine, it's probably sideplated, as is mine. Side plated doubles are very misunderstood on this side of the pond. Americans tend to only associate side plates as "fake sidelocks" designed to snare the unwary. Perhaps there is some truth to that, but the French artisans in particular, used the sideplated double design to further reduce weight and further tweak that extra bit of handling characteristics. The French had proved that a sideplated double can be made lighter, smaller, and stronger in the wrist than an equivelent boxlock. Mine has the very same engraving pattern though it is straight grip.(16ga). I was told 20 yrs back that my L'Abielle is considered a "penny weight". a word that I have not heard since. The explanation that I was given for the term, was that the gun was designed to shoot a load 1/100th the weight of the gun, but I have never been able to cross reference that. I have however paid much closer attention to French sideplated guns. Even though they have the thinnest wrist in the industry, I have yet to see a cracked one. I was also told that Rouchoux produced many of the sideplated actions that were finished off by St Etienne artisans, which turned out to be correct, as another sideplated Frenchy that I have marked L Sicot, Chateau Briant...is clearly shown in the Rouchaux catalogs of the period with the same exact game scene engraving and highly unusual checkering pattern. Seems to me there is a recently published book that covers L'Abielle guns that is in French. I have also seen a L'Abielle double marked "REVE 3" and read about another L'Abielle with plume barrels. Because of the highly unusual lock up and the way the whole bottom of the gun hinges to become one massive cocking lever, I doubt that L'Abielle was just another finishing house, but rather true gun makers in thier own right. There are also Manufrance made actions finished off marked L'Abielle, but they are not sideplated. Hope this helps...no time to check spelling

"our" list of controler's marks is not complete. Allmost every controler' mark belonged not to one, but to several controlers, but in different periods of time.