A well-balanced gun . . . some make it a big deal, is it?

Perhaps on a case by case basis per individual. I find that I prefer a well balanced gun when upland bird hunting. A well balanced gun in my estimation comes up quickly and smoothly and allows you to swing the gun smoothly through the target in one quick motion without struggle. I own a Fox A grade 28" 5 lbs 10oz with #4 barrels that matches this description.

I agree with Tom above. What is well balanced for me at 6'5" tall is not so well balanced for someone much shorter or taller.

With you being tall Daryl, I would imagine that adding a pad to achieve more length disrupts the balance, eh?

Wild Skies, really we don't know what balance means. Adding a pad? Maybe "disrupt" is not the correct word, but adding a pad could change the balance in either a positive or negative way. But again, what is balance ?

To me, a well-balanced shotgun means pivoting on the hinge pin, with the weight equal on either hand. Adding a thick pad might make the gun butt-heavy, might it not?.

I didn't know what well-balanced was until I held one.

Mike, it is hard to define, the term "balance". What if a gun has no hinge pin ? Can it ever have good balance ? I think King may be with Tom on the personal , case by case, judgment.

"Well balanced" is a term that has no single definition to fit everyone, certainly not a mechanical definition. Individually, it means the weight is well distributed to suit the job at hand. I have known upland shooters who really like a very butt heavy gun and others most comfortable a tad heavy forward. And now with the rush for longer barrels the sporting clay bunch really like a gun with a lot of barrel momentum. None of them are in error with their preferences, just different people with different applications.

Balance is like the definition of pornography, you'll know it when you see it, or in this case, feel it. It will mean nothing to you until you pick up a well-balanced , great-handling gun that fits you. After that experience, nothing else will satisfy.

What if it's a 2-bbl. set with differing barrel lengths? Then what?

They both might provide good balance. I don't define good balance by tipping at any particular place. A longer set of barrels may balance further out than the short set but still "feel right", at least to me. Gunmakers do try to match the balance on two barrel sets...Geo

In my view, a 'good balance' means a gun mounts evenly and smoothly.
When not balanced well, either the barrels tend to rise first, or the stock, both needing small but concious correction.

But it is more complex than that because guns that feel best usually have a centralised weight concentration and so a lower moment of inertia. This is achieved by hollowing in the stock and careful striking up of the barrels to give thinner walls near the muzzles (where the pressure is low). This is why some 'best' British guns often have (and have had from new) quite low wall thickness towards the muzzles.

I can't say it more succinctly than that, but being superfluous hasn't stopped me before. Watch an accomplished shooter mount from the low-gun position and swing on a target. If the mount starts with a muzzle-dip or you detect any see-saw motion in the swing as he closes on the target...he's not as accomplished as he could be.

If you can see the muzzle rise on a smooth, continuous line from start to finish you can be assured that the shooter has a practiced mount and both hands are moving in concert, making the shot seem almost effortless....especially if he happens to execute the shot almost immediately after the mount is complete (not always necessary or desireable, but it doesn't happen by accident). When you've witnessed it, you'll know that the shooter has mastered the gun mount, and it was greatly facilitated by a well-balanced (for him) gun.

If no hinge pin, then 2"= 3" in front of the trigger guard.
As Lloyd says, you know it as soon as you pick up the gun.
A friend has a Perazzi with 32" barrels, you would think it forward heavy, but no it balances beautifully, on the hinge pin!

It is of course easy to correct 'balance' strict by adding weight at the 'other end'. The result is a heavy and slow handling gun. The skill, which I'm sure Perazzi have, is getting the balance right with long barrels without excessive weight.

If you rotate from the waist, the pivot point is the center axis of your pelvis (whatever that means) and if the gun is tucked tightly into your shoulder and becomes part of you then how does the balance point of the gun affect your swing?

I am sure it is more complicated than a simple arc radius. Does the location of the concentration of mass of the gun change the feel? I am sure it does but don't understand how other than the apparently simple physics involved would explain it. If the gun is simply held tight to the body then the gun is not rotating but the body is with a wood and metal weight attached. Then the argument for a well balanced English gun makes no sense to me.

I would love to understand this better and I am sure others are also as confused as I am.

I am sensitive. No bashing please.

For a game gun I like the balance at the pin. For a Clays gun I like a little more weight and the balance a little more forward. But to me their is more to it than balance point. A gun with the proper weight distribution will feel lighter and livelier than one with too much weight in the middle or too much weight at the ends.

Lots of ink has been spilled on this subject, yet it remains an intangible. It's the "art" part of gunmaking that escapes most gunmakers. Very few mass-produced guns can make the claim. Hard to define and hard to describe, yet very real. I tend to associate the concept with lightweight game guns, but there's no reason a target gun couldn't have it as well. Darn subjective and hard to measure (although there are MOI machines out there), my first exposure to the concept was a 1920s LC Smith featherweight in 16 that my father, brother, and I fought over because it felt so good and worked even better. The last one that struck me that way was an mid-1890s Boss light 12. FWIW: most of the 2-inch 12s that I pick up seem to have it as well.

Builder obviously knows more than most gunfitters about balance. Novice shooters who hold their guns at arm's length for low gun games are at a distinct disadvantage. Those who hold their guns close to the pivot point exert much less effort in addressing the bird.

Problem is, builder, for all presentations you don't pivot at the waist. How about a dropping bird, do you bend down at the waist as the bird drops? I don't. Fact is, for most people, if you track the target far enough to really need to pivot at the waist, you're not shooting properly. And then there is that brief time when you are mounting the gun and acquiring the target at the same time. When you can do this properly you can shoot the instant the cheek "welds" to the gun. Huge differences in how well you can do this with guns of differing MOI.

John came as close to hitting the nail on the head as you can. Balance means nothing, if balance is described as where the gun balances under the receiver. You can have a 6 1/2# gun that is so "quick" that you may over-correct and be waving it around trying to settle on a straight away bird, because the weight (mass) is highly concentrated in the receiver of the gun and very little is on the ends (butt and muzzle). OTOH, you can have a 6 1/2# gun that has the weight concentrated on the muzzles and butt, and a lightweight alloy receiver, that feels almost "sluggish". This phenomenon is MOI, moment of inertia.

I have a little 28" .410 S x S that has an alloy receiver. The barrels were not struck very thin towards the muzzles. and the buttstock is full sized and fairly dense walnut. Rocketman spun it a couple years ago on his machine and found that it's MOI is almost exactly that of a 12 g. English game gun, which has the weight concentrated exactly opposite. I shoot the little gun very well for something that only weighs 4# 13 oz., but it has nothing to do with the balance. It has everything to do with the moment of inertia.

I hope no one believes that all guns that "balance on the hinge pin" handle the same.
SRH

A big part of the confusion is that Trap and Skeet have very little to do with actual hunting. Standing in one spot and shooting a lot at small, decelerating targets is very different than walking many miles and shooting only once or twice at rapidly departing (and accelerating!) creatures than can alter their trajectory on a whim. There are components that overlap, but for the most part, they don't. The guns that are good for Trap and Skeet are not necessarily good for hunting. The reverse can also be true. Game guns are probably not very good target guns. In order to do both, some compromise has to be made, which tends to limit the gun for both activities. Figure out what is most important to you and focus there first. If later, you wish to try the other, find the best tool for that job as well.

We have all picked up numb guns that have had less life than a plank of wood. Just as we have held guns that feel alive , almost if hey are eager to get on you shoulder and shoot .I know the old adage about balance on the joint pin on a side by side , but so much will depend on the length of the bar ,length of stock and of barrel that I cant help feeling this is one of the old tales used by salesmen such as the correct length of pull is the distance between the first joint of the fore finger and the crook of the elbow , to persuade a customer that the gun is right for them.
This balance point can not be related to an O/U . Guns with multi choke are inevitably barrel heavy by nature . Balance to me is how the feels between your hands prior to mounting, how lively it feels to you ,which may be different to how it feels to me , how it feels on you shoulder . It is an undefinable quality that will differ to each of us .

Huge. It can make heavier gun pleasure to mount and shoot while making light one slow and cumbersome.

Rocketman must be away from his computer. I don't believe anyone has yet addressed the issue of moment of inertia (MOI). Don is the go-to guy in that area.

However, depending on the intended purpose of the gun--grouse hunting vs trap shooting, for example--it's very likely that you'll be looking for a different feel/balance/MOI. When Mickey Spillane came up with the title "My Gun Is Quick", he could have chosen it for grouse hunters. Not so much for trap shooters. At least some grouse hunters can make a muzzle-light gun work very much to their advantage. In some target games, muzzle-heavy may work better.

Every time I pick up a Perazzi I feel like Gunman does with a well balanced gun, it feels alive, dynamic, in my hands.
Not the case with the Krieghoff, to me, however

Just to throw in a small bit of info. When specified, most gunmakers [UK] give the balance point as a measurement in inches from the front trigger. The hinge pin placement varies between action types.

Best,

Mal

Thanks for all the insight. I started with skeet ten years ago but I have been shooting sporting clays for about 8 years low gun. It was a big adjustment to move away from premount and somehow when I am thinking theoretical I am thinking premounted. I sort of get what you are all talking about. I do understand the physics you are talking about. I have front heavy slow guns and the reverse. I am at the point of figuring out what works best for me and when. It is clear to me that there is a mix of things going on. Body rotation and motion of the gun in the mount and swing is complicated. The final result is a mix of both and I can see how different guns result in different outcomes. If the weather changes a bit and I can get out and shoot this discussion will be helpful.

Thanks,
Milt

Larry is right, I've been away from my computer. I'll chime in with objective information if you all want it. Otherwise, I'll not butt into a perfectly good subjective discussion. The guys saying "personal issue on a gun by gun basis" fit the objective view. Consider stock fit. We never wax eloquent about stock dimensions (not that shooters of old didn't) as we see them as highly personal. Objectively, handling is the same. We each have a specific set of weight, teeter-totter balance, and swing efforts (MOI) to shoot our best or to have the most enjoyment. Like stock dimensions, this set of numbers varies with our application/purpose of shooting.

That said, does anyone want to go to objective on this discussion?

DDA

As far as I'm concerned, a "well-balanced" shotgun is one that has good dynamics and pointability for its intended use, whether it is an 8 1/2 lb. 12 ga. SC o/u, a 7 1/2 lb. sxs-o/u for pass shooting, or a 6 1/4 lb/ sxs-o/u for grouse, woodcock, or quail, with some crossover between these. Pretty simple, actually.
JR

Don, I think some of us can use a refresher. And I expect there are some involved in the discussion that haven't heard the MOI basics previously. I believe it would be a valuable contribution.

I have always puzzled over the fixation with the hinge pin since the only thing unique about it is its easy visibility. There are long actions and short actions, and the hinge pin doesn't do a thing to define where you put either of your hands. Neither does the front of the trigger guard, for that matter. The trigger itself, yes, but that's just half the equation. Then you to just figure that the shooter places his other hand a comfortable distance out under the barrels, hinge pin be damned.

Well said, Ithaca5E. When people don't have an answer for a seemingly logical/simple question they tend to make one up. The hinge pin is kinda/sorta/about/maybe half way between the hands. The idea of center of weight (CG) being "between the hands" is hard to argue with. Somehow, that, over the years, got translated into the hinge pin. And now for the truth! We can reference the CG/balance point/teeter-totter point to any other point on guns. However, the most practical point is, indeed, the (front) trigger. If we do so, then we can easily determine how far it is from CG to center of the rear hand (most people have about 3 - 3 1/2" from the trigger to the center of hand). That is, on a typical game gun with 4 1/2" CG to trigger the CG to center of rear hand will be 7 1/2 - 8". One then measures from the CG to the center of the forward hand, for this example we can say 6". These numbers show that the weight will be proportioned into the hands as 6"/(6" + 8") = 6"/14" = 0.43 = 43% into the front hand and 57% into the rear hand. If we reference to any other point, we still have to get to the hand to CG lengths by extra measurements. The trigger is the only sure point where the gun must be touched to fire. If we stick with the trigger as reference, we are constant from gun to gun and balance can be compared. The preferred % weight in each hand is an individual shooter characteristic.

Questions.

DDA

OK, Larry, short course.

Weight determines the muscle effort expended to carry and lift and hold the gun. Teeter-totter balance determines on an individual basis the % of weight carried by each hand. MOI at teeter-totter balance determines the swing effort needed to make the gun point in a different direction while uncounted. MOI at butt determines the swing effort needed to change the direction the gun points after mounting. MOI at CG must be measured and MOI at butt can be calculated once MOI at CG is known. Balance at CG is determined with a "fulcrum" type pivot and tape measure. Weight is taken from a scale.

There is no magic "balance". Guns are static/fixed objects and do not change dynamic characteristic when in motion. The concept of a "balance" that sums the four handling characteristics is fine subjectively, but does not compute objectively. Useful information subjectively would depend on calibration between two shooters.

Most shooters will be enthralled with the handling of a British pattern game gun (6 1/2#, 4 1/2" CG to trigger, 1.45 uncounted swing effort, and 6.4 mounted swing effort). MOST PEOPLE WILL NOT SHOOT THERE BEST WITH SUCH A SET OF HANDLING CHARACTERISTICS. Most will shoot better with a unmounted swing effort of 1.8 or more and a mounted swing effort of 7.5 or more.

There is no point in harnessing yourself to a gun that requires so little swing effort that you can't easily control it (twitchy mother). Likewise, don't try to shoot a gun that requires so much swing effort that it tires you before you are done shooting (numb, to quote our British cousins).

Weight must attenuate recoil to your comfort and must not tire you prematurely.

Balance must be to your requirement. If you find yourself sliding your front hand around on the forearm after mounting, you may be sure the balance location for that gun does not suit you.

Questions?

DDA

Huh? Really?



SRH

Thanks, Stan. I was too tired to go there.

Larry, you asked on another thread about the handling of a SKB 100, as I recall. Best I have is as follows:

Ithaca SKB 280E, 20 bore/gauge, 25" barrels, 14 3/8" LOP, 6# even, 4" CG to trigger, uncounted swing effort at 1.02, mounted swing effort at 5.39, and half weight radius (compactness) at 8.88" (very compact). Does that help or do you need a different gun?

RM: All front triggers are NOT created equal. Some are further forwardt han others and vice versa. Some ST guns even have adjustable triggers. Because of this, I'm wondering if front trigger is a good reference point since they do not appear to be constant?

Gun fit is far more important than gun "balance", however you measure it. The concept of the gun balancing on the hinge pin assumes that all action have the hinge pin the same distance from the heel and barrel end. Taint so.
What seems to matter more is that the mass of the weight of the gun lie between the hands.

Someone did? On THIS THREAD? Darned if I could find it, other than a reference to "MOI machines" by Lloyd back on p. 2. Lots of talking around the issue. Rocketman can give you numbers--as he did concerning an Ithaca SKB 20ga with 25" barrels in a previous post--that quantify handling characteristics. Those numbers will obviously be different depending on whether you're looking for something that handles like a light game gun vs a heavy target gun. But if someone explained the concept previously, then I apologize for having somehow missed that explanation.

Thanks, Don--and for the refresher on MOI. The gun I was looking for in specific was the Model 100 20ga with 25" barrels. Lighter, and different weight distribution than the 280 because of a short splinter vs a longer beavertail. Also ejectors vs extractors, and PG vs straight stock. Surprised you haven't spun one of those on your machine. Pretty sure you'd get even less swing effort than the 280. Some grouse hunters like them because they are so quick into action. But, for that same reason, they're challenging as target guns.