Hi all,
I have a customers model 12 12 gauge shotgun here at the shop that has us all puzzled. It had wood on it and was sent to the bluing tank and all went well considering it's a nickel gun. The customer brought me another stock and fore end that he wanted to use in place of the old tired wood it had on it. The problem is that it doesn't fit. The pump tube on this gun measures 5 3/8 and the normal pump tube and the wood he gave me is 7". Also the tang that goes into the buttstock is at a different angle than the new wood. I have talked to a couple of model 12 "experts" and they tell me that the slide tube on this is a rare one but the angle on the tang has them all baffled. One even told me it wasn't a model 12 that I had. Well it's stamped winchester model 1912 12 ga. so I assume I read that right. Anybody in the brain trust here have any ideas? Is this perhaps a bespoke gun with special dimensions? Help please.

I have a Model 1912 (Made in 1913 with 14 groove forend) and find that the wood on my 1912 is a bit different
than the wood on a later model 12.

The forend on the first and very early second year, 1912 & 1913, had 13 grooves. In 1913 the forend was lengthened slightly to 14 grooves. 1914 was the first year for the 16 ga and the 12 ga. with the 16 ga. having 2 9/16" chambers and a 14 groove forend and the 12 ga. having 2 3/4" chambers and a 15 groove forend.



Mike

oddly this gun is a 12 but had 2 9/16 chambers as well. the original forend has 14 grooves. It is stamped model 1912.

If you'll check the Madis book- the extra charge for bending the tang to alter the stock dims back in 1916 was $3.00- my guess- instead of the smaller "perch-bellied" stock with the modified POW grip- perhaps it was retro-fitted with a post 1935 fluted comb style field grade buttstock and the tang angle altered-- And if it is marked Winchester Model 19192- it is a Model 12- and anyone who tries to tell you anything contrary is full of Schiese- all WRA did in 1919 was drop the 19 from the Model 1912 roll stamping, thus Model 12- same gun- not called the "Perfect Repeater" for nothing either- I have 7- all made prior to 1948, 5 of them made before 1940-- As Dave Petzal of Feel & Scream magazine once wrote in Sporting Classics in 1985- "The Model 12 points like the Finger of Doom"--and he was/is 100% right about that-

That could explain the tang. So if I replace the current tang with another one the other stock should fit given it was set up for the original dimensions. But what about the pump handle body on this being so much shorter than the other wood? The replacement wood at numrich has 18 rings, so if I were to replace the action slide with the new version this new wood might fit?

The number of rings on the forend is not the problem. The length is what you have to match. The forend length was changed and you have to change with it. The "shank" is commonly bent to make different stocks fit. Put the shank, together with the receiver, into a vise and bend it until the stock matches up with the receiver. Sadly, you have not talked to any "experts".

What year does the serial number indicate for this gun?

Following "Eightbore's shank bending advice??" is a Fubar waiting to happen. The receiver and the shank are made from forged nickel alloyed steel - and heat treated (NOT case hardened like the Carriage bolted side-by-side shotguns Mr. Eight-Bore has some knowledge of,or so rumor may have it.

This is what can happen when some "know-it-all" type tries to expand his so-called "expertise" into other aspects of shotgun gun-smithing that may well involve both a smattering of basics in both machine shop practices and metallurgy.

No one man, no matter his background or years of experience, whether in my case both code welding of both ferrous and non ferrous and tool steels, plus growing up in my grandfather's machine shop, starting at age ten- or in the case of "Eight-Baller", growing up in a saloon setting in PA and later working for a State Liquor Commission, can claim expertise for everything- but I'll put my life-long love of the "Perfect Repeater" and both my research, study and "hands-on" ownership of the shotgun make and model I know best, and from having shot them steadily since age 12 (60 years ago now)-and still yet today. I rest my case..

I've bent a lot of M12 tang/shank,,what ever you want to call it,, to adjust the drop on them. I heat the shank up close to the rec'vr with an acetylene torch heat to red. Grab it with a plier & bend it. They bend easy.
Quick heat,,not so close to the rec'vr that you damage the blue on it.
It doesn't take a whole lot of adjustment of the shank to change the drop at the heal a bunch.

Then you have to re-inlet the stock to rec'vr inletting a touch when done as the top will hit before the bottom edge.
Not a big deal. The entire process takes about 30 minutes if you're tired.
M97's alter easily too.
I've never bent one w/o using heat. Just didn't seem like an easy thing to do.

The shank is a separate piece threaded into the receiver but still a stout one. Threaded into a reinforcement of sorts on the back of the M12. But straight into the back wall of the rcv'r on the 97.

You are putting a tiny bend in the shank itself this way,,the forward end of it that's threaded into the rec'vr doesn't move anywhere.
Make sure the shank is tightly threaded into the rcv'r before you begin or the heat can leave you with a wobbly, slightly loose,,but still usable stock mounting shank when you're done

A far as the forend is concerned,,seems like there was a short length forend slide for a few years pre WW2 offered on a Skeetgun or something like that. I had a 16ga in once w/one on but don't recall much more about it than that.

I didn't mean to start a fight here by any means. Could I replace the short action slide with a later long slide?

You didn't- and if you want to send the the forearm/barrel assembly (No FFL or C&R required)and the new replacement forearm, I will fit it for you for a small charge- and yes, I have the special spanner wrench required. I did this many times on GI issued M12 and M97 riot and guard shotguns while I served as a Master Armorer in the USMC- and as NCOIC of the base trap and skeet armory, also on some trap and skeet issued Model 12's--

Now, as to the other gent who did the "heat and beat" shank bending "technique"?? First off, I went ot my WRA Library- the WRA 1938 Salesman's Catalog- page 16 shows two clear views of the shank, receiver rear boss, and the bottomed in place tip of the threaded stock mounting bolt- not scaled or dimensioned, but to anyone with half the machine shop experience I like to think I have accumulated in 60 odd years-and still going-- we are talking about cylindrical threaded components here- you do an "Ed Da Torch" on the internally threaded shank while in place into the mating receiver boss- which also provides a threaded lower boss for the rear trigger guard set screw as well- and you get the ID and the thread "out of round" and you have a Fubar and a possible: improper fit, that will allow the stock to loosen over time and recoil of firing the shotgun- plus a "BFH forced fit" which means some day down the road, another soul may wish to remove the buttstock and will be faced with jammed or seized threads as a result of this screw-up-- The only proper and safe way is to remove the shank from the receiver boss, and insert the threaded end of either the existing stock mounting bolt, or as I do- I have a piece of 12L14 Screw machine stock with a threaded end to match the pitch and TPI of the original- as a "slave pin" or "dummy bolt". Then you can clamp the receiver facing end of the shank in a padded bench vise, apply slow and spreading heat (move the propane torch around carefully to get a dull heat sheen, add an "eye-ball" bend- let air cool- refit, and repeat if needed- until you have the new angle needed for the refit and change in either drop or cast (on or off from TDC line of the stock comb--

I disagree with the "Wonderkind expert" from the Land of Mary, who advised you to clamp the receiver into your vise and "have at it-- even with a padded vise, you can still mar a M12 receiver- and I saw it done by a similar numbnut- to a Pigeon Grade Trapgun with fancy wood and John Kusmit engraving- The other reason for isolating the shank from the receiver has to do with simple physics- and force and kinetics I should guess-with the receiver clamped into a bench vise and the shank in place, it is too tempting to try to make the "change" in one pass- and when you get in a hurry you make Fubars--

The Madis book- The Model 12-- page 83--quote: "Changes in dimensions of stocks were offered to raise or lower the drop or to provide an offset -------To bend shanks and offset a stock to the right or left, or up or down, ran from $5.00 to $10.00, again depending on the time of manufacture----"!

In a previous posting here about my beloved Model 12's- Old Eight-Baller may have made a negative comment about George Madis' expertise, alluding to some potential errors in this great book (actually, to give the Devil his due- there is one- but it is a typo, and not pertinent to the vast amount of accurate detail about the great Model 12- and Madis worked for WRA for over 30 years- if he were at my shoulder now, and told me the WRA used Scott instead of Charmin bungwipe in the employee's restrooms, I would believe him 100%--and so should you!!

"Ho Lee Chit"-- an oxy-acetylene torch produces a temp. 0f 6000 degrees Fahreneheit at the tip of the neutral flame cone- no matter the style ( welding/brazing tip, cutting tip or a Rosebud tip) and also the pressure of both the fuelgas and oxygen-- and I though that the "Ed Da Torch" was the only idiot with a "Blue Flame wrench" in his toolkit-keep that 6000 degrees away from anything except something you wish to cut is my advise, as a welder with many many years working in the trade--you'll turn that shank into high strength salt water taffy!!in a friggin' heartbeat_

well I picked up a 7" tube action slide today on evilbay. I can fit it, but thank you for your generous offer. I'm thinking about just ordering a new shank from a supplier and working from there. I'll keep you all posted and thanks to all for saving this job for me.

Getting it red hot in a hurry is the idea so you don't damage the bluing on the frame.
Yes it bends easily when red,,steel does that,, and that's also the idea. No chance of the recv'r slipping in the vise by putting a lot of un-necessary pressure on the shank trying to bend it cold. A #2 tip works well. Works good for welding in markings /lettering.

"...we are talking about cylindrical threaded components here..."
Why yes we are imagine that,, and to think we heated to red about 1/2" or less of the length of that piece of threaded (on each end) round stock that's slightly bigger in dia than a common pencil ,, and then bent it a couple degrees.
Wow, Panic Alert,, call Engineering Dept before proceeding.
You can make a big project out of it,,or not.
No damage to to gun, or componet parts during the fix or later. I saw many of those guns later as they returned for strip downs & cleanings.

You can just as well give the shank a wack or two with a heavy hammer over a solid support to bend it cold while in place. Most probably what the factory did, but there's the chance the end threaded into the frame will bend and/or loosen on you doing it like that. Not having replacements at hand makes the hot bend a better choice for the parts starved.

It's not a big deal. I've probably done 30 to 40 of them in the last 40+ yrs between 12's and 97's. Even a couple 42's.
I learned it from other gunsmith(s) who learned it somewhere else,,,

If you can't heat that stock shank up to red w/o melting it in half, don't play w/the torch.
No I don't have any certification in anything that I can think of.

FWIW, years ago I had a 1913 20ga Model of 1912 fitted with wood from a newer gun and it required a new action slide and ring, but the wood fit fine after we got the right parts.

Not having any certification can be a good thing as there are types of "certifications" you really don't want to have.

The best way to preserve the "bluing on the frame" as you said- assuming that you really mean the receiver here, the proper term for the Model 12 repeater (and the Model 21 double gun as well) is to first remove the shank, as I always have done--yes, be careful with whatever heat source you use, whether an oxygen fueled torch (make mine a Victor please) or propane units sold at Hardware stores all over America- Turner is my preference here-

Best way, IMO anyway-- is to pack the shank with the "slave pin threaded bolt" inserted into heated charcoal, wrapped in heavy asbestos sacking, that way you get even heat input into a cylindrical (sorry if that is too technical a term here) so let's say "pipe" as that is what the shank is, albeit a tapered OD shape--instead of the spot heat application from a torch tip, even moving as is the proper technique.

As to the often abused term: "certified" I knew a few dudes who said they were "Certified" welders- BS- they worked in a production Fabrication factory welding with MIG (Metallic Inert Gas) aka- 'wire welding" in the 1G position with the metal sections to be thus welded together clamped in a jig or fixture-

Any Willie off the pickle boat that can law down a bead of caulk from a caulking gun in the down-hand position can become a "certified 1G position MIG welder)- assuming someone with the right welding op. background sets the wire feed speed (amperage or "heat" for him) as well as the OCV- open circuit voltage- affects the shape of the weld bead as deposited in the joint- along with the wire AWS rating, diameter, coating and shielding gas delivery pressure, flow and admixture- if not a straight 100% as delivered shielding gas--

Frame,,rec'vr,,you got it. That big part.,,the action w/o the parts.

Your method to bend the shank sounds OkeyDokey. A lot of fussing, but have at it.
Doing it that way, I'd mark the shank for 12 o'clock and back the new upward bend up to 11 or so.
When you put it back in the frame it'll tighten in a bit further than the original.
Unless you want some RH cast off too along with less drop.
If the bend isn't enough,,or too much, take it back out and do it over again & hope that it screws back in w/o over clocking again.
..or just heat it red in a small area back from the frame so you don't damage the bluing and bend it up w/a pliers.


Allow for some extra stock re-inletting if you go for the cast off and to be truthfull it doesn't look very good done this way (cast off/cast on).
But you can do a very tiny amt and get away with it w/most factory fitted stocks.
Better to restock and make the cast adjustment starting at about the nose in the new stock so it doesn't look awkward at the frame/stock juncture.




I don't have a MIG,,don't know Willie.
I did fine w/a TIG when I had access to one to use in my work. An ancient machine of it's time but was all new to me.

Teach yourself as you stepped off that pickleboat was the learning method.
No one showed you (much of) anything in the gun trades for fear of loosing their job to you. 'Figure it out yourself kid'.
A few kind souls would be helpful, but they were a very few.

I get along w/ small tank acetylene set just fine now. Heat when needed like the above small jobs or small welding like filling pits or lettering & small alterations, restorations ect.
I use it all the time for hardsoldering too.

I just give the shank a little bump and put the stock on to try for fit. If it isn't in position yet, I give it another bump. I don't need to abuse my fellow posters to get that done. Crazy or abusive people have no place on this site. We are here to help, not to spout off.

Hey, WTF- Murphy- you do it your way, it's your Model 12 (the one maybe you may well have bought on E-Bay for $500 a few years ago now) and I'll do it the both the WRA custom shop guys did back in the day- and also the way I was taught at USMC advanced Armorer's School in Quantico, VA-- slow and controlled heat input, and just as important, slow and controlled cooling or, air quenching if you prefer that term.

The fact that the original poster was strongly considering sending the forearm and barrel and magazine group (No Receiver) to me for my fitting up speaks volumes, at least to me, and the offer is still open should that gentleman wish to pursue that avenue of approach.

As far as abusive, you set the standard for that when you far abused your position as both a Lifer and a Time In Grade member of the Perpetual Goofballers Consternation Amalgamation and had me banned- petty and childish, IMO- and such acts by Plicks such as yourself cannot add to the increase in paid memberships such smallish and closed interest groups such as the afore-mentioned one need to grow and survive in a ever-growing anti-gun culture America is becoming today.

As an Life membership in your "Carriage Bolted DoubleGunGruppen" is $500- I'll wager you that sum in cash that
you can't get me banned from this Forumsite- Dave Weber is way too far a fair minded person to entertain such pettifoggin'- I'll ever double that to an even 1K if you can not only do that here, but also get me banned from the AH Fox Collectors, where I occasionally as a Forum only (at least for now) member, under the sobriquet of "Germantown"-- I say "for now" as I am considering becoming an annual paid member, so I can post AH Fox gun parts for sale, from time to time.

Whenever a member here posts a question about gun related items or machine shop/welding processes that I feel I am qualified to contribute, I will do so- and that most certainly includes some (but not all) pre-1964 Winchesters, mainly Model 12's and Model 70's= and not all (electric resistance production "spot welding" is NOT in my field of expertise)welding and basic welding related questions of metallurgy-- Your may be "De Kingfish" elsewhere, and I will grant that your long-time research and attention to detail regarding the "America's Finest Shotgun" has, no doubt, enhanced the aura of the Brothers Parker and their first-rate shotguns- but as far as your ability to tolerate others who may choose to disagree with you, there I shall find you lacking indeed, Sir!!

What I said in my last post.

I've bent the tang(shank) on a Model 12 with just brute force before, mainly to reduce drop at heel and it went ok. I did this when I was young and more ignorant. It makes a lot more sense to me now to use a little heat. I would think much less chance of breaking something.

yes I heated the shank with a propane torch and it bent perfectly. Now on to changin the slide tube. Found a 7" one on ebay. I will finish it tomorrow at the shop. Thanks to all.

I'm not sure who is playing the part of Walter Mathou, but the movie 'Grumpy Old Men' just popped in to my head. Incredibly amusing. I'll confess - I do LOVE a good insult. Never in short supply on this forum, either. I'm not sure how hard it would be to find yourself banned from the PGCA, but I seriously doubt boorish behavior toward Bill Murphy alone would get the job done. Besides that, if the guy carries some weight with that fraternity it might have something to do with the fact that he knows more about Parker shotguns(and many others) than but a handful of people.

There is a cliche my father used to say. Maybe you've heard it, or hell, maybe he really did coin it - more than one way to skin a cat? He could be sadistic, but I never actually knew of him skinning a cat, although my grandmother did tell me about him tying two cat's tails together and then throwing them over a clothesline when he was a kid. Any way, that wasn't my point.

Despite what I know About Murphy from the Parker
guys up here in the North East. And my club the Vintagers.......Fox with the runs ...once again tells us about his Vietnam heroics .( and us guys at VFW know about this...a big red flag about frauds)..and the " super Welder" goes on google to translate English language into any foreign language to demonstrate who smart he is...and as the Internet shows , it is easy to do...but you know when you see it...one of three things or a combination, you pick...blowhards, drunks, or idiots........I think all three...not directed to murph here ..just to be sure....fox with the runs and his insulting ethnic sexiest moronic statements MUST be a mental illness or the last stages of alcoholism....one who sits by the computer 24/7 attempting to show all.. That he is a MAN and not to be reckoned with.....and find joy in insulting as many people as he can.....as an Irish Bostonian that I am , he is what my buds would call a big delusion fraud.


Ps...And Oh...by the way...forget that shit about censorship or first amendment rights...your right to free speech is only applicable to " state action"....that is no governmental entity can abridge that right...ANY private group can do what they want. Any private club or any organizer of a public forum can do what they want....if they want to determine what they want they are free to do that and no constitutional issue arises...so Weber should start cleaning up the mess. ..or the guys who have left , and there are hundreds , should think down the road to get a forum that is just about double guns...look and see how many great contributors are not here...we are left with misfires...guys who are whining to other guys who agree with them...pass the whiskey please.

Up Yours, Condor-- You can research all my postings and replies on this site since Day One- and for every one that contains my so-called "Vietnam Heroics" I will kiss your sorry Bostonian Mick sad ass in Brooks Brothers downtown front window in frickin' Beantown. Then you can "Paaark Da Carr in Da Harvaard Yaard" if you like--

You don't read well do you??- when I mentioned Advanced Armorer's School in Quantico, numbnutz- that ain't in Vietnam. Last time I checked, it was still in Virginia. I served in the USMC from 1960 to 1972, when I was Honorably Discharged with the rank of E-6, and had two MOS- 0311 basic rifleman, and 2112- Armorer.

I never talk about Vietnam, or my two best friends who died "In Country" and I do not belong to either your American Legion or the Veterans of Foreign Wars- when I was discharged, either one of those fine Veterans Organizations were not really thrilled to recognize Vietnam Veterans as being Veterans, just the World War Two and Korean Vets - I do on occasion, go as a guest to an area Legion Post to have a few drinks and shoot pool- but do not join, even though now I could.

There are all kinds of websites I understand that will enable you to check out any man's claimed Military Service- You are most welcome to check mine out- No Purple Heart, no Bronze or Silver Stars, I would NEVER dishonor those who have earned any of all of such, as some the of the "wannabees" seem to do. One think that might guide you here- the fact that I legally changed my last name to what it is here in 1973, at my fiancee's request prior to our marriage. Go figure!!

My "sturm and drang" with Mr. Murphy most likely started when I joined as a "rookie" and made the mistake of posting that I had inherited 2 12 gauge high grade Parker double-guns from my late Grandfather- Murphy insisted that I post photos and give out the serial numbers, apparently part of the ritual on his Fiefdom Forum for carriage bolted double shotguns. I refused, and he openly questioned my veracity, sort of a "put up or shut up" challenge- which is so close to calling me a liar that you could spit at the difference and not get wet if you were standing downwind-

I have never forgiven him for that insult, even though I have since sold one of the 2 Parkers he holds "in question" privately, to a non-PGCA member who lives in Washington- As to other members of that group, some I am still in contact with. And that speaks to your BS comment about my fluency in other languages besides English. One solid friend from my membership in the PGCA is Angel Cruz- we have had many e-mail chats, and if memory serves, a few phone calls, and chat equally well both in Spanish as well as English- you are free to contact him at your leisure and verify our friendship.

I grew up in The Queen City, and like Milwaukee WI and Germantown (both in PA and MD) and St. Louis MO- there is a large resident population of people of Germanic heritage- My Grandmother's housekeeper- Frau Schimmel- taught all of us German, and I also had both German and Spanish in HS- as well as Latin in Catholic Grade School- Now I am studying Italian with a Rosetta Stone program--I bought mine at a Barnes & Noble bookstore- I did not know they were available on Google.

There is something about you Eastern Coast folks- you are way ruder than us Midwestern types, with of course, some exceptions. I have already commented on Murphy's knowledge of the carriage bolted shotguns- BUT- that does NOT mean he knows it all- no man can- and my replies on this thread were to advise others with Model 12's NOT to follow his half-vast suggestions as to bending the shank to alter the buttstock fit. I will put my knowledge of machine shop, welding and basic gunsmithing that involves mechanics against anyone that I have yet seen post on this Forum site, especially concerning the "Perfect Repeater"--

LOL...LOL!!....like I said in my post. fWTR....A super Moron


" I will kiss your sorry Bostonian Mick sad ass in Brooks Brothers downtown front window in frickin' Beantown."

My pants are down...and I am waiting.

Most un-gentlemanly behavior has been demonstrated in this thread. Why do you guys want to denigrate this forum with this nonsense? We are here to talk about guns, and frankly, what the man had to say re the Model 12 and bending the shank using heat, had credibility IMO.

Buzz...I agree 100%... That was my point but stated in an un-gentlemanly manner....I lowered myself by tangling with white trash... My mistake....

Thanks- I guess-as I [posted the CORRECT and safe method, not the "ram-bam-thank-you-Ma'am" process others suggest- but not, of course, my New England based "pal"- Murph Da Surf- Unless I miss-read him, he suggest just clamping the M12 RECEIVER IN ANY OLD BENCH VISE (What- Not a Parker & Snow even--Gadzooks and whacking the attached shank until you achieve the desired results- He is welcome, of course, to use that BFH technique on his own personal M12's- but the gent that asked the original question deserves better- and so I gave him the steps for the process both the WRA Custom Shop often used- if it worked for them- well you get the drift-

As far as Cutter or Kutter, whatever, the Boston boy wunderkind, he has some set of cojones to question another Veteran's stated military service- he was, most likely, what we called a REMF'r--

Would you fellas please get a room?

he he he, you know it really felt good to say that.

I hope you both have a wonderful day. It is 76 here today, little wind, and I have been messing with shotguns and old hulls. I AM in a good mood.



For tomorrow's skeet shoot, I have already loaded the SUV with a Bernadelli and a Rottweil, BUT the other guns in the gun vault are hollering. American, Russian, French, English, Belguim, German, Spanish, Italian, Norwegian, Swedish, Turkish, Japanese, etc. all hollering at one time in there own language.

WHAT JOY!!

Mike

"As far as Cutter or Kutter, whatever, the Boston boy wunderkind, he has some set of cojones to question another Veteran's stated military service- he was, most likely, what we called a REMF'r--"



Runs...thinks I am Kutter or cutter....geeez......past the whiskey...or is it whisky...he will tell you..... LOL!...this is why guys have left the forum......and why we have lost people who really contribute....I say LOL...but actually this is really sad....I will sign off now...what's the point....but I resent being called a Rear Echelon Mother F**ker....but it is what I expect from a fraudulent veteran vet.

"The fact that the original poster was strongly considering sending the forearm and barrel and magazine group (No Receiver) to me for my fitting up speaks volumes, at least to me, and the offer is still open should that gentleman wish to pursue that avenue of approach."

This was the most amusing statement in the entire thread. The delusion helps to explain why the conversation got out of hand.

Fradulent "veteran vet"-- OK- prove it here in front of God and everybody, and I will fly out to Beantown and fullfill my obligation-- and REMF means "Rear Echelon Mister Foster- as from the 1960's mantra "Up Against The Wall, Mister Foster"--I don't much like Crud-Cutter here, but I was raiosed to respect my Mother- and would never denigrate her name with the F-word- never!! Infamita