Hi all, so......what in your opinion are the top 5 worst things you can do to a fine doublegun?

Have Fun!

Greg

1. Add a vent rib.
2. Anything with camo finish
3. Port barrels
4. Hot blue barrels or receiver
5. Replace front sight with glow worm
6. Bonus; Cut stock to make it adjustable

1-5 Change it from how it was made (excepting fitting alterations)!

#s 1-5 Allow your gun to come anywhere near a blow torch!

How about a nice rubber butt pad with white line spacer? Lagopus.....

1 Add sling fittings.
2 Colour Varnish the wood.
3 Fit a centre sight.
4 Blue Damascus Barrels.
5 Tamper with the barrels fixed choking.
6 Turning a good looking gun for its age into an over coloured Mutton dressed as Lamb thing instead of letting it grow old gracefully!!!!

No. 1 Cut the barrels
No. 2 Port the barrels
No. 3 Thread barrels for screw in chokes
No. 4 Nickel plate
No. 5 Cut the wood


SRH

Define "fine double gun". I may have done three of them, but probably only two. I may be due some bonus points because I have had choke tubes installed in more than one. And I may do it again.

Interesting comments! Let's say a Vintage gun. Best guns of Brit, Continental and American make.

Thanks again!

Greg

Allowing someone, who does not have the ability or knowledge, to "repair" a double gun.

Change it from a double to a single trigger. Everything else I could think of has been covered.

Steve

I have one gun that had all of this done, yes I am in the process of restoring it.

Greener Pigeon grade 12ga

Received it with:
1 Hot blued Damascus Barrels (yes ribs loose)
2. Beavertail forend
3. Adjustable comb, yes original stock cut for this "feature"
4. A Morgan adjustable black rubber with aluminum recoil pad.

I don't think there was much more you could have done to try and ruin this gun....

Drill holes to repair a crack! Yuk! I can do a lot of fixing and make it look original with wood grain, but holes have no place in fine grained stocks.

binko

Peen a hook or bend an action to put it back on face. Agree with most of the previous posters pet peeves. Oh, also.....trying to recut checkering by someone with the skill level of a chimpanzee. Trying to make the bores nice and shiny honing them well past safe limits.

Peen a hook or bend an action to put it back on face.

I am very glad you said that - because this is being encouraged - see this clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXbrmmiSngw
Now I'm no expert, but I have spent a little time around some experts - and this is NOT how they would do it - and nor is the squeezing referred to in the video.
I don't know what to add really, because whilst I am all in favour of sharing knowledge, its so easy for the wrong things to get shared.
Sorry this is 'off topic'.

1 cut the barrels
2 cut the barrels
3 cut the barrels
4 cut the barrels
and oh yeah
5 cut the barrels


almost everything can be made right - sometimes (but not always) but as long as they are done right- choke and chamber modification make them more shootable - true collectable guns should be left alone

A very old fashioned and out dated method that should not be used on anything other than an old knacker and even then only if there is no other alterative .
These techniques are long past there sell by date and to publish them as the norm is wrong if not irresponsible and can lead to enthusiastic amateurs damaging there guns believing that this is the way it should be done.

JohnfromUK,
I don't think this is the "peening"of the hook, Joe was talking about. This was only tightening, not putting it back "on face".He specifically said he wouldn't work on the "hook" to tighten.I'm sure what Joe was talking about is the often seen punchmarks on the hook(the front lug)in a misguided attempt to set it back.This poor method is very obvious,even to the untrained eye.What the English trained gunsmith did in the video is not obvious and I suspect a lot of us proudly showoff guns that have had the samething done, without knowing it.
Mike

Those u tube moments of visual agony with those two using a two pound hammer only proves the fact that you can not make a whole wit out of two half wit’s. We are surly past the stage of bashing the lumps of a gun barrel with a big hammer and passing the idea to people who would possibly not know any better.
Just wonder what those two people who should know better where thinking of!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1. Poorly installed or ill-fitting pads. Especially on small gauge guns.

2. Butchered up screws.

3. Neglect and or pitting.

4. Crudely carved initials.

5. "Enhancements," swivels, etc.

Hi Mike,
What you say about having guns that have had this treatment may very well be correct, but I have had two guns tightened, in one case by a new pin, and in the other case by a new pin and re-metal the hook (it had previously had at least one new pin).
In both cases, I was told this was the ONLY way to do it properly, though neither was badly 'off the face', just a bit loose in closure. I agree if the gun is off the face, the barrels have to be moved back towards the face - and the video acknowledges that. I don't agree that 'dressing' the metal on one bite alone to tighten the closure is the right way to go. I have been told that the action should NEVER be squeezed, another thing mentioned in the video.
As Gunman has said, these may be acceptable for a very cheap way of getting a low budget gun that doesn't justify a proper job a bit better for a short time. Peening the metal like that will give a small contact area that will wear quickly and you will be back to square one very quickly.

I don't believe it is the right thing to do at all - ever - to a quality gun. I would not (knowingly) accept it being done to any of my guns - if others are happy with this technique, fine, but I'm not! Just my view and I may be 'picky' or plain fussy, but I try to get things done the 'right' way on my guns.

#1 mistake: Sell the gun.

I'm not a big fan of electric pencil social security numbers either

On a vintage gun...

1. add a rubber recoil pad
2. add a rubber recoil pad
3. add a rubber recoil pad
4. add a rubber recoil pad
5. cut the barrels

Oh, and I'll even add a 6th one

6. add a rubber recoil pad

For British or Continental guns, anything that takes it out of proof, e.g., chamber lengthening and/or excessive honing.

They say a picture is worth 1000 words. Check out this!

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=403206405

However... the last time this P.O.S. was listed, some shotgun connoisseur actually bid $851.11... and did not meet the reserve. Proof that both seller and buyer are on drugs.

This same gun was originally listed as being a rare factory original gun.

We've all seen worse. Peened lumps, nails and carraige bolts, torch colors, gobs of gray epoxy and baling wire. But someone actually put some time into this monstrosity.

1. Truck Gun
2. Cowboy Action Gun

Accidentally run over a nice SxS that was left on the ground while loading the dogs in the SUV.

I think this one pretty much encompasses all of the above but for being run over by the truck.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=403501619

But, it was all done by a highly skilled professional so, it's all all right.

I could live with the folk art carving on the Lefever, but hacking at the barrels with a hatchet is over the top.

So what do you do if the stock's too short? And on quite a few vintage doubles, a recoil pad was a factory option: Parker, Elsie, Fox, Iver Johnson. And "period" pads are available.

They're only too short if you intend to shoot them. From what I've seen that's waaaaaay down on the list for most "vintage" gun owners. In fact, shooting isn't even a consideration for many.

I should get a pass on this, I am 6'4".
CHAZ

Yes, you should. Further, there exist a lot of very useful, utilitarian shotguns produced in an era that had men of smaller stature shooting them. While the purist would look at the leather covered pad on a Purdey and pronounce "that is how it should be done, on all guns", the cost of that fancy pad could be three times the worth of said utility gun.
I'm not a fancier of pads myself, but, I don't feel too bad replacing a white line Pachmeyer of any vintage with a more subtle sporting clays model on a gun that will see some use.
The thing I hate seeing perpetrated to a double of any sort is not a modification at all, but, an abuse-slamming the action closed. I see guys pounding the hell out of their guns at the club all the time.
I don't say anything. But, I cringe when I see it.

Best,
Ted

Find a gun that fits you, or add something that is removable that doesn't alter the original stock.

Um, like a recoil pad?

A very good list by many and some points of modification can be argued and I definitely would never do.

Everyone is entitled to do with their's as they will and I defend your right to modify to make it suit you. Though the result is not one I would ever want to touch. Use of ONE'S PROPERTY is a RIGHT, unfortunately good judgement is an obligation many don't adhere to.

For me the Worst Things You Can Do To A Double is not use it. This is why I honed my collection down to the guns I actually use and feel my freer for having done so.

The greatest tragedy for me is a mint condition double from the golden era that noone ever enjoyed save maybe looking at it. It is both an opportunity to have a gun in original shape and be able to use it. For me it is sad when they are not used as designed.

An unused fine double is both an opportunity and a sadness.

Yes, if it's removable. Problem is, there are a lot of guns having the ends of the butts hacked off to have a permanently installed extension added. IMHO, hacking off a buttstock to add an extension is just as bad as cutting a couple inches off the barrels to make it a good "brush gun". Both procedures are permanent, and I view every vintage gun that I own as nothing more than being in my possession for a very short period of time. Future owners will be glad I didn't do anything drastic to them. However as another posted pointed out, they are your guns, do what you want with them.

sell it to bubu

What? I cut the barrels, Loctited full choke tubes, put sling swivels, and a dayglow bead on, camo taped, and ported the barrels on a 12 ga-----oh wait this was a Stevens 311. Now a turkey gun. Also reamed the chambers to 3". Not loose ----yet. Recoil will loosen tooth fillings, but a slip on pad helps--didn't want to ruin the collector value.

Let my brother borrow it. Don't ask me how I know this.

Hmmm. Must be one of those practices that varies from the East Coast to the Midwest. Everyone I know that owns vintage guns buys them to shoot . . . assuming they're shootable. Some cheapo trashed guns bought for wall hangers, I suppose. But at least out this way, not many folks buy vintage guns strictly to collect and not shoot them. And the ones that are truly collectible are far fewer in number than the ones that are not collectible but perfectly shootable.

The absolute worst thing you can do to a double, or any gun for that matter, is to NOT join the NRA or renew your existing membership.

To add to the above:

"send it off to Briley's" to have screw chokes added
Shoot Steel Shot in it - Shoot modern high pressure and/or hard recoiling ammo in it
Take it apart and futz with it of you don't know what you are doing
Removing Sling Swivels and Cheek Pieces from guns that came with them
Treating them with less care than a pair of pliers

Bugger the screws.

There should be a rule if you bugger the screw you have to make if perfect again or they take away your screw driver for life.

let someone tell you what to do with your property

1) Having a gun custom made for you and then losing it. Say for instance if Burt Becker were to make you an HE Super Fox and you left it leaning on the bumper of your car and drove off.

2) Or maybe instead, finding Bo Whoop lying on the side of the road, discovering what you had found, and not returning it.

Ding-Ding-Ding! Give this man a cigar! +100

While not a SxS, a few friends overturned their boat on the river while duck hunting. Their pumps and autos were "drowned." The hunters had a very cold swim that morning, in heavy clothes.

They recovered one Remington 11-87 with a magnet two weeks later. After a major cleaning, it was O.K.

The other two shotguns are still in the river.

ONE of the worst things you can do to a fine double gun is not shoot it.

I forgot my favorite no-no; port the barrels.

In no particular order:

sling swivel studs
beavertail forend
cheek piece and/or monte carlo
ventilated pad
ventilated rib
single trigger

Your mileage will most assuredly vary. The list is kept to aesthetical preferences. Mechanical no-nos should go without saying.

That would seem to render a lot of fine German guns and best Boss guns worthless. Cheek pieces and sling swivel studs are all but standard equipment on vintage German guns, and Boss STs may be the most complicated mechanism ever built for a double gun. Boss would not have spent so much time and effort designing something that complex unless a lot of their customers wanted one.

Which is not the same as saying it works well.

English single triggers have a well deserved reputation. Speaking of which, that just reminded me of another bad thing that can happen to a gun, but, this one is done by the manufacturer-chiseling half inch tall letters on the side of a gun about some stupid patent, with one of the words abbreviated, and surrounding them with beautiful and delicate scroll.


Best,
Ted

The worst thing I can think of is not doing what you want to do to it. The question then comes: what do you really want to do to it?

I am no fan of STs - only one of my guns has one, and I have replaced the STs on two of my guns with DTs.

If you view the pigeon ring as the crucible for testing vintage shotgun design, a lot of Brit pigeon guns had/have STs. Given the stakes involved, it seems unlikely competitors would have requested STs on their guns without a high level of confidence that they worked when needed. What subsequent restocking and other gunsmithing did to some of those STs is a different story.

But the larger point is that there are a lot of very fine , very expensive vintage Purdey, H&H, Boss, WR, etc. shotguns out there with OEM STs, which would contradict a claim that an ST is the worst thing you could do to a double.

A good friend of mine recently bought a 2-barrel set James Woodward and son with patented single trigger and the gun has that engraved on the bottom of the receiver. This gun is fabulous! And he got it cheap considering what it is.....likely because of the ST. Beautiful balance and just a magnificent shotgun.

About those ugly sling swivels, in the past I’ve always taken them off feeling they were both ugly and unneeded. However, this year I hunted mearns’ quail in some rugged areas on the south side of Arizona’s Huachuca Mountains. The fellow I was with was from Washington State and an avid chukar hunter. He claimed that much of the topography we were scrambling over was very similar to the type of areas he normally hunted chukars in. The first day I noticed when the going got rough he’d carry the gun on his shoulder in the sling. That way he’d have both hands free for balance or to catch himself when his footing slipped. Since we were using his pointing dog, wild flushes were uncommon. Halfway through that first day I was wishing I had one of those ugly slings on my gun. That evening I remounted my sling swivels and purchased a sling. The next day was much much better. I still think slings are ugly but I guess in the end, unless you’re a fool, function over form wins out.

Steve

Really? Don't you think the gap is rather wide between "aesthetic preferences" and "worthless"?

I try not to be so "elitist" as to impose my preferences on others or ridicule theirs.
Mike

One can say that Boss has built a lot of guns. But, one would be wrong. They are still short of 10,000, by a considerable margin, after 200 some odd years. Hence, the statement that there are "a lot" of them with single triggers is a bit suspect.

Given the stakes involved in live pigeon shooting, most competitors went Italian, a long time ago.

While a single trigger might not be the worst thing on a good double, it's pretty close. I'd put it in the same category as porting.

Boss single trigger, or any other.

Best,
Ted

I rest my case...


Best,
Ted

Ahhh....Ted. To be truthful, I'm hoping the trigger works ok for him. Kind of worries me too. But, the gun is beautiful. Wonderful engraving and a fantastic 15 1/4" stock. 70% case color.

I don't have a problem (in the context of this thread where we are discussing the worst things YOU CAN DO to a double) with totally original single triggers.

I have never owned a Boss single trigger (though I do have AyA, Beretta and Merkel ones) but I have it on good authority that the Boss trigger is one of the very best WHEN CORRECTLY SET UP. Unfortunately, it is complex, some are over 100 years old and have very probably been 'got at' by 'the wrong hands'.

My preference is for a double trigger - and I would have any conversion to a single trigger right here on the 'worst things' list ...... but original triggers should stay how they are - original - and get fixed by the OEM, or suitable specialist if troublesome. The vast majority can be got very good, but I accept there are a few rogue designs, both English and Spanish.

Luckily my German, Italian and Spanish examples work just fine.

Not just a lot of Bosses, but Purdeys, H&Hs, and WRs with OEM STs too.

I realize that one person's aesthetic preference is another person's aesthetic debacle, but I have a hard time equating anything that Hartmann & Weiss makes as the near equivalent of ported barrels (which I highly doubt were ever OEM on any "best gun). (I wait with dread for someone to post a picture proving me wrong on that last point).

gjw,
In my opinion the cardinal sin in so far as British doubles are concerned is to increase the chamber length from 2 1/2 to 2 3/4,[Rendering the gun out of proof] without resubmitting the gun for re; proof!
It continues to amaze me that some individuals think that they are improving the safety of a gun by removing metal from the barrel chambers so that they can insert a 2 3/4 shell. Which of course has the potential to create pressures much higher than that generated by the original 2 1/2 proof test.
In this day and age,it is odd that concerns that existed almost 100 years ago in relation to shell versus chamber length are still influencing owners to make unwise decisions.

Increasing the chamber length on American guns isn't wise either, for the same reason. Short chambered American guns were also originally proofed at pressures lower than 2 3/4" guns--or at least those that were produced after the appearance of the Super-X shell, which pretty much drove the conversion to a 2 3/4" standard. It's likely to be more of an issue with Brit guns than American if we're talking 12's, because American 12's tended to be built stouter than your average Brit 12. But if we're talking smallbores, then you can run into problems with American guns as well. Especially 20's, and especially if someone decides that a 2 1/2" 20 should grow to 3".

Agree absolutely.

How about never cleaning and lubricating: barrels, the hinge pin, hook, etc., or the opposite drowning it all in oil.

I'll also add; slamming, or worse flipping, it closed.

Greg
The worst thing one can do to a fine doublegun ... is not use it.

L. Brown and Roy,

I wrestled with the same issue. No, I didn't end up lengthening the chamber; instead I sold the gun. Are you suggesting sticking with 2 1/2" shells? Or are you suggesting that using 2 3/4" low-pressure (whatever that means) shells in a 2 1/2" chamber is superior to chamber lengthening? Rest assured I'm asking with genuine sincerity and not poking a wasp's nest. Thanks.

Single trigger!!!!!!! Unless you are a trap or pigeon shooter maybe I don't get it.

My answer may be 'non-typical', because here in the UK, probably over 50% of cartridges are 2 1/2" (I'm talking 12 bore).

I always shoot 2 1/2" cartridges - even in my guns that have 2 3/4 " chambers (i.e. AyA, Beretta, and Merkel). All of my English guns are chambered for 2 1/2" and I would not put a 2 3/4 through these guns. Low pressure may be safe, but if there was an accident, insurance cover I have would be invalid, since in the UK cartridge cartons are marked with the minimum (CIP) chamber length.

Another ruined gun, hard to believe it fetched 26k pounds sold used. Gawd who would buy such a thing with that ghastly trigger:

The easiest--although it gets somewhat costly if you shoot the gun a lot--is to use factory short shells. But yes, using low pressure loads in 2 3/4" hulls in a gun with shorter chambers is definitely superior to chamber lengthening. What happens when you lengthen the chamber is that you remove metal where the pressure is still quite high. And then, because you now have a 2 3/4" gun, you're tempted to shoot any 2 3/4" shell in that gun. So you're risking an increase in pressure from the load that is higher pressure than the gun was designed to handle, in a gun that's had metal removed from the chamber. With a 2 3/4" hull loaded to low pressure, you're assured of staying within the service pressure standard for which that gun was designed, if: a) You know what that service pressure is; and b) You build in a safety margin of 2,000 psi or more below that service pressure limit. Bell's experiments with long hulls in short chambers, reported in Double Gun Journal, showed very occasional pressure increases of slightly over 1,000 psi due to the longer hull. Most were under 1,000 psi; some quite a bit under. So, for example, if you know that your gun's designed service pressure is 10,730 psi--which it is for a current CIP "standard proof" gun--and if that gun has factory 2 1/2" chambers, you stick with loads in the 8000-8500 psi range (or lower). Which is quite easy to do with the 12ga in particular. And you're in good shape.

As pointed out, however, if there should be some accident and if the gunmaker in question is still in business, you're probably out of luck--not so much because you used a 2 3/4" hull in a 2 1/2" chamber, but because it was a reload. I'd expect any gun manufacturer to be very unlikely to pay damage claims based on the use of reloads, even if those shells are the appropriate length. Factory loads, with witnesses . . . that could well be a different story.

The simple fact that it DID bring that price is evidence that there are many who don't agree with the "two trigger only" option.

SRH

L. Brown,

Thanks for you excellent explanation above. Sadly I've seen people put cheap promo shells into short chambers with the mistaken belief that they are low pressure loads.

Here's a good one. The infamous "Torch Job".

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=405859027#PIC

An A.A.Brown is a very fine gun a truly handbuilt masterpiece made to order. No doubt it will have been built exactly as the original owner requested, not an alteration. I suspect the trigger will be one of the best. The price reflects the fact that the this is one of the nicest truly handbuilt guns being made today.

Hoarding best guns is the worst crime, both against the gun and all other shooters.

Hoarding, drives up prices, excludes many from the pleasure of using best guns, thus lowering the general standard of shotgun manufacturing. If more people knew the feel of a best gun, then gunmakers of even medium grade guns would be a bit more dilligent.

I know hoarders who own dozens of best guns but hunt with Beretta autos. Collecting, with proper taxonomy and documentation is not what hoarders do.

+1, on all counts. And 40% less expensive than a Purdey or H&H and not owned by some international conglomerate.

I was talking with a UK-trained gunsmith yesterday about two vintage UK best guns that had Miller triggers installed after they were sold. He described in detail what that conversion does to the gun's action (removed interceptor sears, bent main sears, wood removed for the trigger mechanism, safety altered, etc.), and the ham-handed way it was done on those guns. That is a whole different issue than an OEM trigger installed when the gun is ordered.

Enjoy seeing this on your posts -- calls up the music for me from those very good ol' days.

Jay

Hunter could pen a song like no other. That one is so genuine and stands the test of time. The theme certainly reminds me of another classic, by Crosby, Long time gone.

Thinking the steam has about run out of this topic, so hope others will forgive me for extending this digression.

Doverham and SKB -- SKB's post led me to look for a refresher of the lyrics, and I found the following in an annotation. Maybe you guys know this background, but it's new to me. My mom died a year ago, and the song says something new to me now.

Jay

From Classic Albums: American Beauty, a film by Jeremy Marre:

Lesh (On "Box of Rain"): The lyrics came about in an unusual way. This was the first time I had written a song in a long time, and I had worked out the melody and the chords, and in fact the whole song, from beginning to end—introduction, coda, and everything—and I put it on a tape and gave it to Hunter.

Hunter: He'd just written these lovely changes and put 'em on a tape for me, and he sang along (scat singing of melody)—so the phrasing was all there, I think I went through it two or three times, writing as fast as I could, and that song was written. I guess it was written for a young man whose father was dying.

Lesh: And at that time, my dad was dying of cancer, and I would drive out to visit with him, in the hospital, and also at the nursing home he spent his final days in, and after Bob gave me the lyrics, on the way out there I would practice singing the song. I sort of identified that song with my dad and his approaching death. The lyrics that he produced were so apt, so perfect. It was very moving, very moving for me to experience that during the period of my dad's passing. I felt like singing it in other situations similar to that since then.

GC - thanks for sharing that. You do learn a lot of things on this board!

While "promo" loads are typically light in shot charge, that does not mean that they are light in terms of either pressure or velocity. They are made with enough "punch" so that even dirty autoloaders will function, which means they're not really "light" at all. Thinking they're fine in short-chambered guns is indeed a mistake. I can load up 1 1/8 oz 12ga field loads which, although they have a heavier shot charge, will be lighter in terms of both pressure (down close to 7,000 psi, in the specific load I use) and velocity than your typical cheapo big box store load.

Thought to resurrect this OP for a brief comment. I just received a gun that, upon inspection, reminded me of another screw-up with nice doubles that I have experienced. A mid bead has been added and, it is off center on the rib. This infuriates me. There is a simple little inexpensive gizmo from Brownell's that centers the drilling site on the rib for a bead. Foolproof. But, some think they can "eyeball" it. Most can't. The result is a mid-bead that is off center, and uglier than death eating a cracker.

If a gun wasn't built with a mid-bead, DON'T PUT ONE ON IT!!! This little Verona 692 LX 28 and 410 combo has a mid bead on the 28 set that is visibly off center. Now I've got to deal with fixing that. Yeah, I've got to. I can't stand to mount it and see that screw-up.

SRH

That is sickening. Hope you can fix it where it doesn't show. What a drag!

OK; I'll open up the can of worms. Taking a decent original gun and "upgrading" it, making it into something it was never intended to be.

I think the key word there, F2F, is "decent". Agree a gun should be left alone if it's in really nice original condition. On the other hand, if it's not that nice but still a good candidate for restoration . . . why not upgrade it? As long as you don't intend to deceive the buyer if you decide to sell it.

I have a beautiful Japanese SxS - pre-war - manufacture is unknown, but it looks like a Kasuga. It's very high quality with a finely fitted action, smooth triggers, smooth rear safety with gold inlay, finely engraved action with pheasants. Nice stock and forend. It's only flaw - 19 3/4" barrels! Everytime I pick it up I think "what a shame - such a beautiful gun" I just imagine it was a Yakuza gun - some mobster wanted a nice SxS he could fit inside his trench coat - what a shame to ruin such a beautiful gun.

I agree with many of the comments on the importance of shooting the guns. I bought a very worn out Belmont Interchangeable SxS with the hope of making is shootable again. The cost to do so will never be wise, but I think it's joyful to return a vintage double to the shooting world once again. It may end up a wall hanger - depending on the barrels - damascus, but maybe I can get inserts for it to make it shootable.