I am in the process of researching a Charles Lancaster,0ver and Under box lock.The gun in question is a 16G ejector, with single trigger, Serial #013519.I believe the gun may have been made in Birmingham circa 1920 and perhaps finished in London.
Dose any one have any manufacturers literature /information to share on this Lancaster model and /or the identity of the actual maker?
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Roy , was there not a Lancaster over/under started in Germany ? I am away from my books, so cannot verify. Daryl
I'm pretty sure that Geofery Boothroid started the "German action" myth regarding Lancaster O/U's. There are some similarities with the "typical" German action because of the basic needs of the O/U system. Although Lancaster O/U's are quite rare, I've seen a few, both boxlocks and sidelocks. There is no reason for Lancaster to start with a "bought in" action for their top of the line gun when they had some very good gunmakers working for them. I've seen 12, and 20 ga. actions, and all are undoubtedly "one off". I believe their total production of all types and gauges of O/U's is fewer than 30.
Best,
Mal
I agree Mal,
What makes these Lancaster look Belgian or German is the crosspin location below the barrels. That design makes the action look tall and not so elegant (IMHO).
Moreover, the barrel lump protruding through the action to push the Purdey bolt back is not helping either.
Trunion mounted pivot points make such equipped guns much more attractive (to me). A close second would be the Cordy floating 1/2 pin system.
Best regards,
WC-
hello roy,
unusual for yourself to be short on info! hope you get what you need.
mal, i always understood lancaster o prefix numbers to be "bought in".
cheers
mrwmartin
Yeah - but if they were built on Lancaster's own design, why didn't Thorn patent it?
According to Boothroyd, Thorn did come up with a design for some O/U ejector work which he patented. So why not patent the rest of the gun? Thorn was obviously interested in protecting his creations.
Also Boothroyd mentions a letter in The Field stating that the actions came in-the-white from Germany. Apparently there was some dispute in the trade surrounding the guns's origins.
OWD
OWD,
There was nothing new or patentable about the action itself; unless you count the "humpback" top tang attempting to minimize the visual height of the action. It didn't work! Possibly rough forgings came from Germany; but lockwork and finishing looks to have been done in London. Sidelocks have the distintive "Lancaster" shaped plates. Examples that I have seen are all marked "Patent Ejector".
Best,
Mal
Yeah. OK. I see what you're saying. They're basically SxSs, flipped on their sides. Nothing new there except for the ejectorwork.
OWD
Mr. W martin,
You are most probably correct. I'm not anywhere near my referances.
Best,
Mal
hello mal,
i should mention that the information i provided re o prefix is correct, to my understanding, re shotguns. i should not have jumped into a rifle query as i do not have any knowledge re lancaster rifles.
cheers
mrwmartin
Mr Martin-
Did Lancaster sell a lot of "bought in" shotguns?
If so, what kind of guns were most of them?
And do you know how "bought in" they were - completed by someone else, or in-the-white and finished off by Lancaster?
Thank you,
OWD
I don't think you'll ever get a straight answer on that question OWD. Nobody knows what was brought in, how many or where they were being brought in from. Smallbore states in his books that he believes Osborne made the Lancaster body action guns (serial number with the 0 prefix). I'd like to know where he got that information too! Others speculate that Beesely made the guns. One thing is for certain..Thorne did have a factory, and did make guns. I believe all of the sidelock model A's were made there.
Interesting. Thank you for the info.
OWD
On a side note....I believe the only way to really know the origins of completed guns, un-finished actions and barrels and who the "house engraver was is to have access to the cash books. The books used by gunmakers to record who they paid for services, parts and equipment. I don't believe the Lancaster cash books survived time. The existing records really don't provide that much info. The records for Lancaster guns are owned by the rifle maker Ronald Wharton formerly of Rigbys (UK).
OWD,
i do not have much further info to add re origins, but after many years of asking questions and searching for info,i understand the following. "o" prefix shotguns bought in complete.Other shotguns bought in the white from webley etc. some shotguns built by lancaster.
cheers
mrwmartin
Cool. I appreciate the info. I learned a little more about British shotguns today (and yesterday)!
OWD
Roy, I had one,16, double triggers, traded it toTony Galazan 15 years ago. Thought the action was made in Germany, the rest all Lancaster. It kicked like hell and the triggers were very close together so my finger got pretty beat up on the second shot. 13 sticks in my mind, don't remember if it was the Mfg year or the serial #. SFQ