I recently acquired a 12 gauge SLE, 2 1/2" gun (still in proof) with 28" barrels and a long LOP at the Southern S x S shoot this past weekend and wonder if anyone can tell me about the quality of this maker. Based on the address (3 Price Street, Birmingham) the gun was made somewhere from about 1941 to 1953, according to the information in the "Vintage British Shotguns" book by Terry Wieland.

Any information would be helpful.

John Harper was a quality gun maker. He made fine boxlocks for Beesley and Churchill. I will be able to post a fuller description later.

Tim

John Harper was manufacturer of fine guns located in Birmingham until mid century. You might wanna get Douglas Tate's " Birmingham gunmakers " you might be able to find the information you need in that book.

All the best,

Kem

John Harper was a maker "in the trade" and few of his guns have his name on them though I have one. He was very well respected by all and was a Guardian of the Birmingham Proof House. Our Jack Rowe in Enid, Oklahoma knew him personally and speaks highly of him. You would find a phone call to Jack would be most interesting.

Joe, sent you a private message. Is your John Harper a boxlock or a sidelock?

"I recently acquired a 12 gauge SLE" SLE = sidelock ejector

I have seen one lovely Harper BL..I bet that SLE is wickedPisser ; lol
Any Pics?
franc

Some more info on John Harper, mostly from IGC but also other sources:

John Harper
Address 1 124 1/2 Steelhouse Lane; Address 2 28 Whittall Street; Address 3 Tiger Works, 3 Price Street; Address4 Tiger Works, 3 Price Street, 2 & 4 Price Street, 28 Whittall Street; Address 5 63 Price Street all in Birmingham, trading as a gunmaker from 1902-1976.

Harper's built guns for the provincial and London trade. They built a few of their own-name guns too.

John Harper may have been the brother of Albert J Harper. He established his business in 1902 at 124 1/2 Steelhouse Lane. In 1912 the firm was recorded at 28 Whittall Street, and in about 1940 they had additional premises at 2 & 4 Price Street. In 1940 the firm moved to the Tiger Works, 3 Price Street. Between 1954 and 1976 the firm occupied 63 Price Street.

Doug Tate wrote he had seen a catalogue for John Harper, Tiger Works, Whittall Street showing a handwritten inscription, May 8th 1976, John Harper, indicating he was still in business then and as has been mentioned, was Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House Guardian in 1980. Doug writes: 'Typical for a maker who specialized in building guns for others, the catalogue is filled with guns covering the spectrum of qualities and all but one of them have vacant banners or cartouches in which the eventual provincial retailer could engrave his own name. The exception is Model 110, a single-barrel "Anson & Deeley pattern trap gun" with "Beaver-tail fore-end" and "Made for 2 3/4 and 3 inch cases." Because of its design and specifications, this particular gun may have been intended for the American market and is consequently engraved with the maker's name on both the barrel and the action.'

A story recounted in Don Master's book on Churchill alleges that just before WWI Robert Churchill was about to depart to Monte Carlo for the live pigeon shooting championships, when he fell in the snow and damaged the end of his 28" barrels. There being no suitable other gun for him he is supposed to have asked John Harper to cut his barrels down to 25". Masters' says these seems most unlikely as Harper's were in Birmingham, so why use them when Churchill had his own barrel makers in London. Apparently Robert Churchill knew of this rumour and he always denied it; he continued to use John Harper and later his son Norman Harper up until around 1955.

Harper’s probably made the E J Churchill "Utility" and "Prodigy" models and supplied barrelled actions to them; they supplied John Robertson of Boss & Co, some of their own later guns were made by A A Brown & Sons. L Jones engraved some guns for the firm. They also supplied most of the F Beesley boxlocks from 1918 to 1939. Harper’s also supplied John Wilkes with some guns, as well as WR Pape.

The Bristol-based George Gibbs gun and rifle manufacturing company was bought, in 1918, by the then manager H Stevens, a Dr Cates and John Harper. In 1927 the company filed for bankruptcy, though creditors were paid off and business resumed. It is not known if John Harper was still involved with the business at this time. In 1964 the Gibbs business was acquired by Bath gunmaker and author Ian M Crudgington and John Harper’s son, Norman. Gibbs continues to trade, now owned by Mark Crudginton. Again, it is not known when the Harper connection was lost.

From records built up by me the serial numbers of Harper named guns run in the 14, 15, 16 & 17 hundred series, indicating a production of around 400 guns. These include single barrel hammer guns, SLEs, BLEs and BLNEs in gauges 12, 16, 20 and .410.

Tim

QH01, it is generally a mistake to try to ascribe "quality" to a maker's name. With the exception of Boss (maybe) all makers made and/or sold a wide range of original quality grade guns, best work to farmer grade. Gunmakers needed to sell whatever their clients would/could afford and/or wanted. All gunmakers could get out a best work gun either with in-house workers, with out-workers, or by outright purchase from a trade firm.

DDA

I recently purchased a 16ga BLE John Harper (Birmingham) proofed 1oz with 2 3/4" chamber s/n 16xx. Any additional gun information or the appropriare ammunition to use?

Are there any other proofmarks on the gun? Anything with tons or bar--like maybe 3 tons or either 850/900 bar? If just 1 oz and 2 3/4", that would indicate a gun proofed between 1925-54. The 1 oz Herters shells currently sold by Cabela's are CIP-approved which means they're OK for British guns like yours. And would probably work well for hunting unless it's really high volume shooting, like doves. Or maybe quail where there's a double digit limit. But if you're shooting a lot, like a box or more, you may find the recoil uncomfortable. RST makes light loads, both 7/8 and 3/4 oz. For games like skeet, and for relatively close shots at birds that don't require a lot of killing, they work great and are very comfortable in terms of recoil.

Under the 1896 Rules of Proof, the 16 bore Service charge was 1 oz. 2 3/4 Dram Eq. = 38 gr. Bulk Nitro powder with the following (+ 10-14% to converted to modern transducer) pressures:
C&H T.S. No. 4 - 7,480;
“Schultze” - 8,250 psi;
“E.C.” - 8,960 psi

Under the 1954 Rules 3 tons/ sq. inch = 8,938 psi by piezo transducer

Shells with those ballistics are the heaviest I'd use; lighter loads will be more comfortable.

Drew, your post pretty much confirms what the former proofmaster said, although he was referring to the 1925 rules and not 1896. He served both before and after the transition from the 1925 rules to the "tons" rules (in 1954), and said that the proof remained the same even though the proofmarks were changed.

Taking one more step, British shell boxes will tell you that standard proof CIP loads are OK in 2 1/2" guns proofed at 3 tons or 850 bar; 2 3/4" shells in guns proofed at 3 1/4 tons or 900 bar. Equating 3 tons to 850 bar and 3 1/4 tons to 900 bar would seem to contradict published transducer pressure equivalences for the "tons" mark, because we know that a gun bearing an 850 bar proof (current CIP standard) equates to a transducer-measured service pressure of 10,730 psi. Something seems out of whack there. However, there are a large number of Webley & Scott post-WWII 700 series guns that were imported to this country with 2 3/4" chambers, 12ga guns marked as 3 1/4 tons. And most buyers likely assumed that since they were made for the US market, that they would handle standard US 2 3/4" ammunition. (I owned a 20ga Model 720 with factory 3" chambers--basically a 702 made for the American market--that was marked 3 1/4 tons. Since it weighed less than 6 pounds, I never had the guts to try it with 3" magnums, and in fact limited factory shells to nothing heavier than an ounce at modest velocity.) Likely not comfortably from a recoil standpoint, if the shot charge were in excess of 1 1/4 oz and/or the velocity in excess of 1300 fps--and especially if both were true. But many have been shot for a long time with lighter and/or slower American loads, and I've not heard of reported disasters as a result. Personally, I too would exercise caution--if for no other reason than excessive recoil. But it is a contradiction in the interpretation of acceptable loads based on proofmarks.

Here's John Brindle in Part 5 of his series in The Double Gun Journal, “Black Powder & Smokeless, Damascus & Steel”; Volume 5, Issue 3, 1994, “Some Modern Fallacies Part 5”, p. 11.
His estimated post-1954 but pre-CIP (finally adopted 1980) pressures by LUP converted to piezo transducer psi.
The Proof House shared with both you (I believe) and Vic Venters that the post-1954 pressures were not greater than those of 1925-1954, and not dissimilar to the 16g post-1896 actual Bulk Smokeless pressures I posted above when 10-14% is added.

.....................Service.....Max. Service.....Proof
12g 2 1/2”.........6,800 psi....8,800 psi.......12,250 psi
12g 2 3/4".........7,800 psi....9,800 psi.......14,050 psi
(CIP 2 3/4" 12g)..10,733 psi...12,328 psi......13,489 psi
16g 2 1/2".........7,300 psi....9,300 psi.......13,150 psi
16g 2 3/4".........7,800 psi....9,800 psi.......14,050 psi

Just to remind us:
3 Tons/sq. inch by LUP (crushers) = 8,938 PSI (pounds/ sq. inch) by transducer using Burrard's formula
3 1/4 Tons = 9,682 psi
3 1/2 Tons = 10,427 psi
3 3/4 Tons = 11,480 psi (The SAAMI maximum for 2 3/4” 12g is 11,500 psi)
4 Tons = 11,917 psi

And I believe the British just enjoy messing with us

BOTTOM LINE: for 2 1/2" chambered 12g limited to 1 1/8 oz., and 16g to 1 oz. shot, pressures should be less than 9000 psi and fps less than 1200.

Ref. the 16 bore. If it's marked 1oz. it should have 2 1/2" chambers. 23/4" chambered 16 bores were marked 1 1/8th. ounce.

You'll not find a bad Harper gun. He mainly made for the Trade; a sort of unsung hero of the gun trade, and seldom sold guns under his own name. Lagopus.....

My records indicated that John Harper, the firm, made just under 1000 guns in their own name over a 75 year period (1902 to 1976). They included single barrel hammer guns, SLEs, BLEs and BLNEs in gauges 12, 16, 20 and .410 Of course, many more were made for the likes of Pape, Churchill, Boss (Robertson), Beesley, Wilkes, Woodward and Dicksons.

In the late 1890s there were 4 Harpers, all in the same family, making guns. John Harper I was a gun action maker. John Harper II started the eponymous firm in 1902; he died in 1937. By then his son John Norman Harper had taken over the firm. It was this last John Harper who became a Birmingham Gun Barrel Proof House Guardian; he died in 1981.

Tim

Thanks! To be on the safe side, I have been shooting 2 1/2" RST 7/8oz. light loads. I just started reloading (new primed hulls) 7/8 oz. 2 1/2" light loads (about 7300psi or so).

The shotgun seems to be in very good shape and shoots well. Its biggest limitation is the shooter.

Thanks again for the replies!

Dr. Drew. RST offers a 16 ga 1 oz load at 1200fps that termed Lite in 2.5 in that I have been using on Texas wild bobs, think these are safe in my W J Jeffery 16 marked 2 1/2 in 1 oz 3 tons per sq in? Only use about 150 shells per season and reload low pressure 3/4 oz or 7/8 oz shells for skeet and SC.

Quail Hunter, got any nice hero shots of your Harper?..I think we'd all like to see a few
chers
franc

Here's something to keep you going, from an old auction: JOHN HARPER A 12-BORE SIDELOCK EJECTOR, serial no. 1653, 26in. sleeved nitro barrels, 2 1/2in. chambers, bored approx. imp. cyl. and 1/4 choke, treble-grip action, automatic safety with 'SAFE' detail, cocking-indicators, floral bouquet and acanthus scroll engraving, retaining traces of original colour-hardening and finish, 14 3/8in. figured stock, weight 6lb. 6oz., in a lightweight leather case

[img][IMG]http://www.jpgbox.com/jpg/51463_600x400.jpg[/img][/img]

Tim

Here is an example of a nice Boss/John Robertson 20 gauge BLE that was built by John Harper that was in the recent Julia's auction:

https://jamesdjulia.com/item/52928-1-402/

*JOHN ROBERTSON (BOSS) 20 GAUGE BOXLOCK EJECTOR GAME GUN.
SN 8336. (ca 1935) Cal. 20 ga. 2-3/4″ Chambers. One of the excellent boxlock guns supplied by John Harper of Birmingham, and retailed by Boss under the Robertson name, and SNed amid other Boss guns. This gun has 28″ dovetailed bbls with narrow, concave rib which is engraved “Made in England” and “John Robertson. 41. Albemarle Street. London. W.” Bbl flats are stamped with Birmingham nitro proofs for 2-1/2″ chambers, bottoms of bbls engraved with SNs. Small boxlock action with nicely filed beads around fences, features automatic safety (SAFE silver inlaid), double triggers, and automatic ejectors. Action is engraved with approx 60% coverage well cut medium scroll. “John Robertson” is in scroll terminated ribands on each side. Blued top lever, floorplate, and trigger guard are also scroll engraved. SN is at grip. Very nicely flame figured European walnut straight grip buttstock with flat top point pattern checkering, measures 14-1/4″ over 1/2″ lengthening piece with checkered wood butt. A silver oval on toe line is engraved “H. S. M Jr” (Henry S. Morgan Jr., great grandson of J. P. Morgan, banker and philanthropist). Matching splinter ejector forend has Anson release. Bore diameter: left-.612, right -.612. Bore restrictions: left -.007 (IC), right -.003 (IC). Wall thickness: left -.033, right -.031. Drop at heel: 2-1/8″, drop at comb: 1-1/2″. Weight: 5 lbs. 9 oz. LOP: 14-1/4″. PROVENANCE: From the family of banker and philanthropist, J. P. Morgan, Jr. Gun was ordered by his grandson, Henry S. Morgan for his son, Henry S. Morgan, Jr. in 1935. Ex-Henry S. Morgan Jr. Estate Collection. CONDITION: Excellent, as found. Bbls retain approx 90% orig blue, with some slight frosting, silvered at normal carry point and at breech end of bbls. Action retains approx 70% orig case hardening color with loss due to normal hand wear. Top lever, floorplate and trigger guard retain a considerable amount of their orig blue. Stocks retain over 90% of their orig hand rubbed oil finish, grain open, and rather dry. Checkering is slightly worn and soiled. As this gun was made for Henry S. Morgan, Jr. when he was about 12 years old, a lengthening piece was added later, workmanship was not of the highest order. Bores are excellent, bright and shiny throughout. Action is tight. Bbls are on face. Ejectors are very slightly out of time. 52928-1 MGM (5,000-7,000) C&R – Lot 3164

Just bought a nice John Harper SxS and would now a little more about it. Serial 1586