Did AH Fox ever produce 28 gauge guns? How about .410? I can't think of ever seeing or reading anything about an original AH Fox 28 gauge or .410.
I've read the 28 gauge cartridge was introduced to the US market in the late 1890s or early 1900s and later became popular through promotions from Parker Bros. Did Fox simply think the 28 gauge wouldn't catch on? One would think that their customers would ask about ordering a gun chambered in the new "popular" 28 gauge.
Even after being sold off to Savage in the late 1920s they must have figured the cartridge wasn't popular enough to tool up and build guns chambered for 28 gauge? By the 1940s they were making the 311 Model B foxes but still no 28 gauge. We see 28 gauge and .410 guns from Parker, Ithaca and others but why not from Fox?
I think you hit the answer above, not enough sales potential to justify the tooling expense.
What they didn't have was profitable sales success with the gauges they were making.
That's an over simplification but I don't think far off the mark. Ansley had lost control by around 1910, for purely financial reasons (We don't need no stinkin' profits!) and his successors by 1928ish. I think it's fair to say that one reason for the high regard Foxes are held in today is the general level of quality in each Philadelphia gun, relative to their competition at the time of original sale.
They all had to compete at the various price levels and Fox was, in general, over building and under pricing.
Fox figured it out about as quickly as I did a long time ago- the 28 ga. is the answer to a question nobody asked.
JR
Fox figured it out about as quickly as I did a long time ago- the 28 ga. is the answer to a question nobody asked.
JR
Fox figured it out about as quickly as I did a long time ago- the 28 ga. is the answer to a question nobody asked.
JR
Well said. That is one of the best comments on this forum in a long time.
Only Ithaca and Parker made 28's. Elsie also chose not to play in that market, even though they made .410's. Winchester made very few 28ga Model 21's. As noted above, Fox was in Savage hands by the time the 28ga had become a bigger deal, because it was one of the 4 "official" gauges in the new game of skeet. But Savage was busy cutting costs and not about to add smallbores to its sxs line.
Iver Johnson made quite a number of Skeet-ers in all gauges from 410 to 12.
Considering the era, I think the absence of a 10ga is more notable.
Considering the era, I think the absence of a 10ga is more notable.
The 10 gauge had passed it's zenith by the time Ansley entered the business. The improvements in ammunition that allowed the average hunter to deliver the same payloads with a much more nimble gun coupled with the end of market hunting with the decline in waterfowl number pretty much doomed the big "boomers". For those that still needed the Magnum firepower Fox did introduce the Super Fox made famous by Nash Buckingham and Sterlingworth Wildfowler for those less healed to fill that nitch.
I have a couple of 28s. One O/U and a SxS. These make nifty little Quail guns but I'd be hesitant to use them on something much bigger.
Peronally I expect that if it hadn't been for Skeet this gauge would have disappeared long ago.
Jim
The 16 was much more popular than the 28 and it has all but disappeared. I know those who love it will cry fowl but face facts. Walk into a Dicks Sporting goods store and see which are easier to find the 16 or 28 shells? Mine always has two to four 28 choices and I am lucky if they have one for the 16. The 28 is one of those things you buy when you have covered all the other things. Like a corvette to a 50 plus year old. A reward to yourself not as something you really need. Just something you would like to have.
KY Jon, I agree on your comparison of 28 to 16, I wish you were wrong as i am a 16 fan and shoot it most often and best. That said no one I hunt with owns, much less shoots a sixteen. Almost all have and occasional shoot a 28.
I have more 16's than anything. Yes, it is not practical as far as commercial ammo goes, but then not a whole lot about our chosen obsession is practical.
A nice 16 is usually cheaper than a similar grade and model 20, but a tad more than a 12, at least that's been my experience whether it's a double or a classic pump.
I have more 16's than anything. Yes, it is not practical as far as commercial ammo goes, but then not a whole lot about our chosen obsession is practical.
A nice 16 is usually cheaper than a similar grade and model 20, but a tad more than a 12, at least that's been my experience whether it's a double or a classic pump.
I agree with this. Although the 12s still outnumber the 16s in my safe, it's not been for lack of trying.
And most importantly, I don't do this stuff for practical purposes. None of it. Not the guns, not the dogs, not the hunting property or the long distance trips. If you want practical, I would advise looking elsewhere.
As was stated above, there simply wasn't enough market demand for 28-gauge guns to make it worthwhile for the A.H. Fox Gun Co. to add one to their offerings. There were very few A.H. Fox Gun Co. ads that even mentioned what gauges their guns were offered in and even less that actually touted their 16- and 20-gauge guns like this one from May 26, 1912 --
By the time the Spanish-American war was winding down, the Brothers P knew two things -- (1) The great bulk of North American shooters owned one gun, a 12-gauge, and that the repeater was what most new shooters were going to buy; and (2) therefore, their real client base for their upscale product were the existing Parker shooters. So, they needed to entice them with something new and novel. Parker Bros. entered the 28-gauge market by taking a bunch of 0-frame 20-gauge guns that had been languishing in inventory and rebarreling them to 28-gauge, and telling their clients these are just the ticket for Quail or even Ducks at some of the California Duck Clubs. At that time North American 28-gauge factory shells were put up in a 2 1/2 inch case carrying a load of 1 3/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder pushing 5/8 ounce of shot. Our ammo manufacturers did also offer 2 7/8 inch NPEs and gun cranks like Chas. Askins were stuffing these with 2 1/8 drams of powder and 3/4 ounce of shot. Askins had a 30-inch barrel Parker Bros. 28-gauge that weighed 6 3/4 pounds!! Western Cartridge Co. didn't introduced their 28-gauge progressive burning smokeless powder Super-X load until 1932. Ithaca Gun Co. dropped the 28-gauge from their catalogues with the introduction of the NID in 1926, but at that time Ithaca did return to cataloging a 28-gauge gun,
and a few smallbore Fox doubles were known to escape Utica with an extra set of unchambered 20-gauge barrels with a 28-gauge rim cut.
I had one 28 and sold it. I currently have eight 16 gauge guns. At one time I had twelve. I sold off a Baker, an Ithaca and 2 Foxes.
Currently I have three Foxes, an LC Smith, a Masquelier,a Winchester model 12, an Ithaca 37, and a Westley Richards.
I have more ammo stockpiled than I could ever shoot hunting in my lifetime so no worries there. For me they are the perfect upland gun.
Thanks for posting the ads Researcher. It would be interesting to put together a timeline showing the major product introductions by different manufacturers.
I, like Romac, have enough sixteen gauge Game Loads and reloads to keep me shooting long after I am gone. I wish I had that much 28 gauge ammo. Twenty eight gauge and .410 bore shotguns had more to do with Parker's demise than it contributed to their profit margin.
I, like Romac, have enough sixteen gauge Game Loads and reloads to keep me shooting long after I am gone. I wish I had that much 28 gauge ammo. Twenty eight gauge and .410 bore shotguns had more to do with Parker's demise than it contributed to their profit margin. However, it sure makes collecting more interesting.
You could, conceivably, do it all with a 16 much, much easier and better than with a 28. Everything from deer to woodcock can be taken cleanly with the 16. I really enjoy using mine. I, however, own a 28 that I have never even shot.
I, for one, am very glad Fox never built 28s. They might have gone out of business faster than they did.
SRH
The 16ga "cult"--although it's pretty much that--has actually gotten stronger in recent years. Comparing gun choice by gauge in data provided by LODGH (Loyal Order of Dedicated Grouse Hunters): Back in 1983, 9% chose the 16. In 2012, that was up to 15%. On the other hand . . . over the same period of time, the 28ga has taken a HUGE jump in popularity with grouse hunters, per LODGH data: from a blip on the radar 1% in 1983 to 13% in 2012. I'm sure part of that is due to the fact that there are a lot more 28ga field guns available now vs then. Most 28's back then were skeet guns.
But the top choice among LODGH members has scarcely changed over 30 years. Right around half of them prefer the 20ga.
I, like Romac, have enough sixteen gauge Game Loads and reloads to keep me shooting long after I am gone. I wish I had that much 28 gauge ammo. Twenty eight gauge and .410 bore shotguns had more to do with Parker's demise than it contributed to their profit margin. However, it sure makes collecting more interesting.
When the non-toxic mandate becomes nation wide, the gauge deck will be shuffled again. The sub gauges will become even more irrelevant.
I expect a federal mandate literally any day now. There aren't enough hunters left to fight it when it happens.
Best,
Ted
Target shooters will fight that fight, Ted. Hunters are too disorganized to do it. Every time the subject is broached, shooters of all stripe need to defend lead shot as the harmless product it is, starting right now, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.
JR
Can't be a nationwide nontoxic mandate, Ted. USF&WS has already mandated nontox for waterfowl. They could expand it to include other migratory species like doves, woodcock, snipe and rail. But they can't do anything about upland birds, nor mammals, nor target shooting. And Congress has taken away the EPA's authority to regulate lead in ammo. So while it could be expanded to some degree nationwide, a ban at the federal level isn't possible. At least not under current rules.
The danger is at the state level, as in California. Other states will certainly try to add more nontox requirements, but a lot of states have many times more hunters and shooters (by percentage of their respective populations) than does CA.
italiansxs,
My favorite two gauges are 28 and 16. I think they are two very efficient gauges if you are an adequate shot. For the last 20 years I have shot only a 28 gauge sxs at home with quail and the 16 gauge sxs for pheasant out west. I have never had difficulty finding shells, although I always keep two or three years supply on hand. I prefer light weight guns because with hunting I carry them more than I shoot them.
I must confess that last year I made a change. I discovered the Browning Superposed Superlight 20 gauge and I that has become my gun of choice for everything.
Take Care,
Riprap
Riprap
I like and use both of the gauges as well. With age has come some discretionary funds and the ability to indulge myself.
However; In my more meager years I got by with a 12 gauge double for everything.
Jim
Can't be a nationwide nontoxic mandate, Ted. USF&WS has already mandated nontox for waterfowl. They could expand it to include other migratory species like doves, woodcock, snipe and rail. But they can't do anything about upland birds, nor mammals, nor target shooting. And Congress has taken away the EPA's authority to regulate lead in ammo. So while it could be expanded to some degree nationwide, a ban at the federal level isn't possible. At least not under current rules.
The danger is at the state level, as in California. Other states will certainly try to add more nontox requirements, but a lot of states have many times more hunters and shooters (by percentage of their respective populations) than does CA.