These annual pre-season 'load, shot size, choke for pheasants' threads are usually entertaining and occasionally illuminating (or worth eliminating by flushing ).
I recall the debate between Bro. Larry and the gentleman from Alaska (who is currently inflicting himself upon trapshooters.com) on the Shooting Sportsman Forum. He had never hunted east of Washington State, and mostly guided for pen raised birds, but was an expert in Great Plains big country pheasant hunting and confidently believed 1 oz. of 7s would bring down any pheasant at 40 yds

A well known gun writer claimed in the Shooting column of Shooting Sportsman in 2007 "In 11 seasons and thousands of birds, we lost a sum total of one (pheasant)" and "I can't tell you how many hundreds of pheasants I've shot with a 28, but I can tell you that I've never lost one..."
Journalistic hyperbole aside, he then doubled down in response to a Letter to the Editor challenging these claims.

I've been in South Dakota doing the mass push and block military exercise mostly as a social event. Not what I enjoy. Most of the low life philistines had Benellis - Montefeltros and SBEs and were using Federal 1 3/8 4s which the guide almost demanded. We also had 12 and 20g SxSs with lighter loads. The best shot (by far) was an orthopedic surgeon specializing in knee arthroscopy who grew up in Ulysses, KS and had incredible eye-hand coordination. He was using a SBE and I asked what choke tube he had in and he didn't know; turned out to be Mod from his last duck hunt.
Point is, everybody killed birds, with every gun and choke and load combination. The experienced guys of course did much better than a couple a first timers. And I think that is the key. Technology will never triumph over talent, or the lack thereof And whatever allows the hunter to cleanly kill and harvest a (edible) pheasant within the distance limitations he chooses is what works, and arguing 'my way is the best way' is silly. But it gives us something to do until we can get out with our pups. And as an inspiration, the oft posted image from Presho, S. Dakota



And an unpleasant annual reminder. Some friends were in Russell, KS for opening weekend staying in the motel just off I-70. The parking lot was filled with hunting vehicles including pickups with aluminum dog boxes in the beds. In the middle of the night, the local meth addict and his buddy dumped out the dogs and stole a bunch of the loose dog boxes. I heard all but a pointer were found the next day. BE CAREFUL OUT THERE.

Thanks, Drew. I find humorous the oft posted concept of developing loads for guns with tight chokes to open their patterns, while nothing is ever mentioned 'bout developing loads to tighten the patterns of guns with open chokes.

Hey, the "virginity" is gone from those guns, why would we work on developing anything for them?

Hilarious.

"Developing loads" would tend to indicate guys using a reloading bench, at home. I was assured, several times, by a transplanted Brit gunsmith that if it weren't for Americans with a reloading press, and a good double gun of some sort, that they fed the results of their efforts with the reloading press to, he would be a far poorer man.

The same gunsmith also told me all he ever used for "pheasant hunting" were Winchester "Feather Lites", in size 7 1/2. I then asked him about the pheasant hunting he did, and it seems he only pheasant hunted on an estate that featured driven birds, just like home. He never took a shot at birds already past, and the estate didn't have particularly high, or, wild birds. He did quite well shooting like this.

But, my birds never come like that. Mine are flying 30mph away from me, not 40mph at me, which changes the impact of ammunition on said birds, I suspect. It seems we differed somewhat on opinion for pheasant loads. 1 1/4 5s and 6s have been my friends for a long time, for the pheasant I get to hunt.

Was he right? Yup. Was I right? Yup.

Happy pheasant season, Drew.

Best,
Ted

Thank you Ted. And a great, and safe season to you and everyone!

My 1908 Smith and 1913 Fox bird guns lost their 'new' a long time ago so the arguments for originality don't apply, but Ben Franklin said some nice things about women with experience

Drew,

That's a good read.
If you post a variation on that synopsis once a year I'll be less tempted to open any of those load/choke threads.

FWIW, the story I recall is that a fella left his setter in the cab of his pickup truck and went into a diner for a bite to eat. He came out to find his window smashed...and two setters on the seat.

I think they found the Pointer just east of Denver

Rocky Mountains must've slowed him down enough to catch!...Geo

I always love tongue in cheek posts, even more so if they contain a little truth. Thanks Drew.

It may be of interest to you that one of those 4H kids for whom you send me those old collars to use, finished two dogs in a retriever field trial two weeks ago, one second and one third. I understand that the field was large enough that 87 dogs were called back, though I do not remember hearing for what series. The lad also judged a trial in Idaho this past weekend.

Those old collars did a lot of good, Sir.

I was briefly in the guiding business (wild birds in Iowa) in the mid-90's. For 4 seasons. Small groups, pointing dogs--usually mine, and I preferred just 2 guys. Hunted with a group of 3 on a couple occasions, and one of my more interesting clients was an octogenarian heart surgeon. We had early, heavy snow the year he and his buddies came out. Harvest was late, a lot of the CRP was flattened, and we were forced to hunt standing corn. He didn't mind blocking, and was well prepared for long shots: 2 ounces of 2's. And he could put that load to use. Most of the time, on the hunts I guided, guys were shooting over points, and the problem was that they'd dump both barrels (or sometimes shoot 3 times with an auto) while the bird was still in easy range.

But my hunts aren't like the large group deals so common in SD. A skeet choke and an ounce of 7 1/2's would have worked fine most of the time, when we were working big CRP fields. Not a lot of long shots.

In a meaningless attempt at statistical significance and consensus I went through the two threads on chokes. Assuming upland birds west of the Mississippi with a double, the final tally among those willing to say:
7 for IC / IM
7 for Skeet or IC / Mod
Surprising 4 for CF
1 M/IM
1 MF
Some favored spreaders but did not specify choke; assume tight.

I would think by adjusting shot size a guy could do with one gun and an ounce of shot for bobwhite and western quail, prairie grouse, mountain grouse, pheasant, huns, and even chuker with any combination, a good dog, and a bit of self discipline. It's not like we won't eat if we choose not to shoot at birds we don't have confidence that we can cleanly kill and retrieve.

Make that 5 for CF, it's an awesome combo.

I am going to step into the snakes pit here and offer my observations gleamed from hosting hunters, some from this board and some from three other boards about shooting pheasant way out there aways and framed over about the last twenty years.

I have had the pleasure of the company of many Uplanders in Montana, or in one of the Dakotas and because I am a curious sort and because of all the posts I have read of birds routinely shot at 50 yards, I diligently paced off those birds my guest shot. My accuracy to the fall could only be off by the length of my stride over different grounds, as must often it was to the dog that I sat at the fall site with a stay whistle until I reached her.

When I asked how far they thought their kill was, nearly always the forty yard birds were found inside of 30/35 paces, which means birds were shot as many yards closer and before their momentum carried them to the fall. My journals show of the birds recovered, that only fourteen times were the 50 yard birds really 50 yard birds.

There was many times I was happy that the dogs worked well to their trialing training, because too many birds shoot at what I thought fifty yards, flew on for a great distance with a leg hanging.

I learned well to just smile when handing a bird to my guests that was retrieved from over the next hill.

Bottom line, I don't think many birds hunters really can gauge the distance at which they shoot pheasants. They are about as good at it as the big game hunters who regularly take their quarry at 400/500 yards.

I don't really know why so many folks think that the birds shot, were so much farther than they really were but seldom was it estimated to be closer than they were.

I do love meeting members who love the Uplands and those I haven't ask to join me in my home and in the fields, please forgive me. I hope to correct that as I can.

Please don't take offense when watching this old man count paces. I am just satisfying my own curiosity.

Agree completely Bob.
I witnessed the aforementioned Orthopedic Surgeon kill a big (and tough!) Sage Grouse stone dead at 50 yds near Pinedale, Wyoming. I cleaned the bird and found NO pellets - clearly killed with a single golden BB to the head, or in light of it's apparent age, a heart attack from the excitement. Unfortunately, the fella then came to believe he could kill ANY bird at 50 yds. He is a VERY good field shot, but not that good

I have been surprised at the number of c. 1900 12g doubles found to be choked about .005 right and .040 left.

I've blocked when pheasants were being driven to a fresh planted wheat field. I've shot them at obscene distances with an 1 1/4oz of 4's, using a turkey choke. And even shockingly further with heavy shot #6. I used "The Undertaker" choke tube, properly named I'm ashamed to admit, as it were.

As I said, it's obscene. It's the wrong thing to do. I am no taller, no more handsome, and my penis is no longer for having blown up birds out over open terrain at the limits of range.

In case you wonder, the shot cloud follows them like a dark softball sized cloud of bees. And then there's the "Poof", and the mostly dead bird laying out in the wheat. Sometimes pieces get sheared off. Usually just a lot of kicking.

Between the cripples, and the shredded birds, purposefully shooting at extreme ranges is wrong.

I much prefer using an ounce of 5's supplied by RST at about 1200fps. Cripples are manageable, birds aren't pulverized, and I don't feel the temptation to do the wrong thing just to stroke my ego. The shots that my reflexes, eyesight, and equipment can consistently make fit the RST loads perfectly. A nice balance of sport and harvest.

The "Undertaker" is retired, and I've grown up a great deal. part of that is accepting that I don't have to kill them all, that we aren't in a race, and that another opportunity will present itself in a sporting fashion soon enough.
As was pointed out to my by a sage old friend, "I'm just not that mad at them."

The mega long shot guys need to think about why they take those shots.

The sheriff of a nearby county has a benefit shoot every year for the Boy's Ranch (a boarding school for under-privileged children run by the Georgia Sheriff's Association). For a number of years part the event included a "tower shoot" for pheasants. The set-up was a scissor lifted box in the middle of a field with 50 hay bulls surrounding it in a circle 100 yards out.

Everyone shot a few minutes at each bale and rotated to the next. The game devolved into a contest of who could shoot the birds nearest the tower. Turkey chokes prevailed. Me, I just wanted some pheasants to eat...Geo

"in the middle of a field with 50 hay bulls "

Wow George. What do you fellers in south Georgia give the bulls to make them so docile? Saltpeter?

Being the curious chap that I am George, I have three questions.

The first is how far from the tower did the average bird shot near the tower get before being dumped by choke and load not typical to what most Uplanders take afield?

Second how many cripples were produced?

And lastly, what was the ratio of rounds fired at those birds, to birds killed?

Thank you.

Drew, the 'bulls' I'm referring to are the big rolled up bales of hay. They needed little tranquilizing.

RCC, I'd guess there were many 70 yard shots; wouldn't have wanted to be the guys in the box tossing the birds.

Very few cripples, surprisingly. Besides any birds not killed by the long shots had to get through the regular guys like me, and behind the circle of hay bales were the really good shots with dogs to make sure the birds didn't escape.

Not everyone of course could shoot at every bird. Mostly the shooters would honor the bird's course toward a particular stand.

This was not a sporting proposition in any way. I had mixed emotions about participating, but curiosity about what a pheasant might be like for supper won out...Geo

The big bales of hay provided good cover from shots across the circle. The shoot consisted of about 250 or 300 pheasants. These were the left-overs from the operator's Tower Shoot season.

Finally the operator went out of business or retired or got a real job or just quit accepting the Sheriff's phone calls or something and the tower shoots ended a couple of years ago. The main event for the benefit is dove shooting in big peanut fields. Late season, that is a sporting proposition no matter who you are!...Geo

One year they tossed a Rhode Island Red hen out of the box which was maybe 40 yards up in the air, That chicken had more sense than all the pheasants; she dropped straight down to the ground and hid under the tractor...Geo

Another oddity occurs when you forget to clip the blinders off & they land in a nearby tree. The number of cripples depends on the group. I've seen a few groups only net say 1/3 of the total and then the number of cripples was near 1/3 of the remaining 2/3rds. Most of the cripples are fodder for the raptors and scavengers if you don't hunt them up immediately after the shoot.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Well Raimey, this is South Georgia; what else can I say. We know how to shoot!...Geo

Ah, there are some in Alabama that can shoot but many of the groups lack practice. Let me say that. Now guiding folks on hunting up the cripples; now that's another story. A 20 - 30 bird rise is an exciting event for man & dog.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

What really perplexes me about these choke threads is the mixing of constriction & choke, and tying neither to shotsize. For the most part, choke is 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 etc. Constriction is narrowing of a couple couple thou deviating from some nominal inside diameter. It really has nothing to do with choke unless you tie it to a shotsize and/or load. If we are going to talk about choke, let's see some percentages of specific number of shot in a 30 inch circle at some distance. It is as simple as that. Now if someone on an off chance has a tube with constriction that results in the same percent choke for #2s, #4/5 & 7 1/2s, I'd like to see it.

Another sidebar is even though the pattern may look lovely in 2D, it doesn't necessarily mean that all arrive at the same time.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

That is sadly, indicative of the percent of cripples I have witnessed by those shooting at roosters flushing at 40/50 yards. I have yet to see near the number of long range shooters I read about on these boards and I have yet to see any of them drop a high percentage of those birds hit, Dead In the Air.

Thankful I am for good dogs that make the mistakes acceptable.

I will happily own up to being wrong if someone wants to "show" me, but after 58 seasons, the last 20 or so in the field 110 days or more, I remain a disbeliever.

That's a really good point. Too much emphasis these days on long shooting and not enough on "hunting" skills.

Well my attempt to bring in real data on choke also supports the inside of 50 yard attempt. If a rooster flushes at 50 yards going way, the fundament/raking shot is one of the worst shots one can take. At best, knowing pattern & feather draw on specific shot, he may fly 300 - 400 yards before falling dead out of the sky or he becomes a runner. And it is difficult to close on a downed bird at a 100 yards much less in excess of 100 yards. On our hunts, spotters are most important as if you have 3 spotters, you will find where the bird set down.

Now if the bird is coming down the line parallel(I've seen a few but it is most uncommon) at 50 yards and has been hit a time or two, that's a totally different situation. Gun dogs and good patterns are the key.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

You are correct Raimey.
Ass packing a pheasant at long range. while delivering a pure and succulent breast, creates a lot of runners.

A little humour, now.
I was run-off at NOBS for my far too graphic depiction of my work at a high volume tower shoot. I volunteered for the dog work. Where else can a dog get 500 pheasants shot near and around them in one glorious slaughter?

Anyway, a NOBS member of some importance said that if pheasant shooting in Britain was ever reduced to such a spectacle, he'd take his Grandfathers Purdey's to the nearest bridge, and through them off. I don't remember if he said that he would follow them.

Tower shoots always devolve to carnage. Every bird is shot multiple times. There is almost no sportsmanship involved. At the shoot I worked, we would see half the birds dead at the ring, another quarter walked up on the grounds around the ring, and the rest give or take maybe 10 out of 500, walked up on the grounds. A percentage were always too riddled for distribution, so some of the walked up birds were always frozen, so that each guest could take home the same number.

It's surprising how many guests have no interest in taking home birds, and leave immediately after the tower shoot, foregoing the walk-up. The walk-up is by far the more interesting part of the day. There were times when I walked up so many pheasants, my game bag split. 30-40-50 birds recovered in an afternoon. One benefit of it was that rounding up the escapees is a great way to instruct a kid in safe gun handling, walking in on a point, taking lollypop shots, and dispatching cripples. 20-50 repetitions is at least $500.00 worth of experience. Our birds typically were sold at $15.00 for the shoot, including a catered lunch.

On the one occasion I worked the tower, shot poured in on the tower as soon as a bird was witnessed clearing the transom. So, people were shooting at pheasants a minimum of 125 yards away. It was a tremendous act of faith to work inside a 12 foot square box with pellets bead blasting your surround.
We were told to never reach up over the rail. Just shove the bird up over the transom by quadrant as instructed. That way, excluding wind, each sector of the shoot has a similar chance of the bird gliding to their butt. We indexed two butts per 15 birds, making 2 laps of the ring. 33 butts, 15 birds/butt, you do the math.

As was pointed out to me, the guy that waits for his birds to glide in will see them exploded before him by the shooters off to each side, so, you better take them long or the other guy will.

I have worked too hard to teach my sons good shooting manners to take them to a tower shoot or for that matter a bad opening day dove shoot. We call the later zoo shoots here as you see all kinds of animals at the shoots. You know, monkeys, asses, pigs, hogs, morons of all types.

Back to the question of shot and chokes and the real point that needs to be mentioned is range. It took me years to teach range first to the boys. Know 30 yards in different types of conditions and you will consistently kill just about any type of bird with moderate loads and fairly open chokes. If you keep shots within 30 your shooting ability goes way up and cripples go way down. I made them count every crippled bird as a dead bird against their limits. It forced them to take better shots and mark every bird well. Cripples are almost always found if marked well and a good dog is around to recover the hunters mistakes. Besides it gives the boys a chance to see and appreciate good dog work. A good dog, that likes hunting cripples, is a joy to watch.

We take doubles with .005-.010 and .020-.025 chokes most of the time, sometimes .015 and .030. Adjust the pattern by changing loads or shot size. If long range shots are needed perhaps one of us will take a double with i/c and full chokes. Like most here I have tried to each my sons that your penis is not judged by your long range shooting nor is life only good with a full bag limit. Shoot, have fun and get outdoors with friends and family as much as you can. Life is too short and no good dog, friend, family member or farm will last forever.

Yeah, those so termed Continental Shoots are a hoot. On one site, atop a hill, we stack up square bales inside a ring of rolled hay for the pit as you just would not believe where some folks would shoot. After one revolution you can pretty much tell where the shooters are and then in the pit we make friendly wagers on a bird running the "gauntlet" and making it outside the ring. Some groups will shoot say 60% or better and wound only about 10% of the total but still there are many birds, especially hens, that are just missed. And like you say CZ, few want any birds & I have on occasion loaded up 115 to 130 birds. Plucking is pretty much out of the question so build a large brush fire and get to work.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse