For you Browning experts out there, did Felix Funken engrave many pigeon grade guns. I have not seen any myself but I don't get around a lot of higher grade Brownings except by internet.

i no longer have Ned Schwing's book on the superposed but my recollection is he wrote that being head of the engraving department Funken had the prerogative of signing any gun that left the shop, and there were so many "Funken" guns that it wouldn't have been possible for him to have done them all. however, there's certainly no reason he couldn't have done it. I've only owned one pigeon and it wasn't signed period.

I have also read that some of those guns may have faked signatures in attempts to boost the value.
Browning history letters do not mention engravers as I'm told.

I had one from the 50's
bill

I have one, 1957,signed twice by him.

All other things being equal,(condition of gun, metal, wood etc.) how much of a premium would you expect a Funken signed gun to bring over a unsigned gun? 50% or more?

I don't think it would add that much,a signed gun may add little over a non signed one and may someone wants a Funken bad enough to put a small premium over that but not 50%. I have seen Olympians signed by 3 engravers and I don't think it added much more to the hammer price.

Have a look at this site:

http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/graveurs/a%20funcken%20felix.htm

Nice work!

Gunwolf

I agree, very nice! I think the Diana grade is my favorite among the Brownings. Under high magnification the engraving almost looks crude though.

Funken, Vracken , and Barton were the best names that I can remember. They brought praise but very little extra money.

bill

Another masterpiece of him:

http://www.grandcurtiusliege.be/votre-vi...-leau-1939/view

Gunwolf

Mine was double signed

most factory engraving was ment to be looked at at arms lenth not under high magnification.i think vrackens work is really good. mc

Exactly right. The best of the Brownings are pretty crude compared side by side with the good engraving coming out of Italy in the last 25 years.

Not so fast there, pardner...Bulino or banknote engraving in Italy is a different style of engraving, almost like drawing pictures with needle-like punctures. You are talking Apples, and Oranges.

Funken, both Baertens, Watrin and his wife Nelly, Vranken, were all Master engravers on some of the most expensive guns of the day, and matched favorably with Holland and Holland and Purdeys, which typically had understated British rose and scroll but sold for much more.

Chiseling 13 or more animals in a Superposed game scene is very different than the artistry of Bulino, and it's unfair to compare the two styles.

I agree with No Dak Scotty and never would dare to say "crude" for the work of this artisans…! Some samples from the Browning custom shop in Liège from my visit in July for german hunting magazin HALAL.
and they are still great artisans today!

The commemorative gun is engraved by S. Purgal….

Gunwolf

Somewhat atypical subject matter on the sideplate gun in the last photo. Nicely done none the less. Homage to Gunga Din I suppose.

I had a composed pair of Pointers (410 and 28 bore) signed by Funken. For the most part all of the high end Belgium Browning esp the engraving wouldn't even get a British or French beginning engraver into an apprenticeship/guild program. They Browning are crude in their engraving as they are not bespoke. I sold my pointer for a stupid amount and acquired a Boss pre-war and a Scott Premier grade hammer. If you want incredible engraving look at the French pre 1895 Pairs LePage, the Fred Beesley or a Purdey

Hmmm, last I checked, the British and French guns were engraved exactly the same way Belgian guns were engraved, and with the same tools,too! Amazing! Ah yes, and German guns were done the same also.

Anyone who looks at a Midas, Diana, or other such Grade 4, 3, etc and says they are "Crude" is just highlighting their own lack of knowledge about fine guns. And those guns are all still made today in Liege, "bespoke."

You can say you don't like Browning engraving, you can say you don't care for the style, but to call it crude, if you REALLY mean that, means your opinions can't be taken seriously in these forums.

I don't care for English rose and scroll, or case coloring, but I appreciate them both for what they are.

I'm not comparing oranges and apples, as you suggest, nor did I compare differing styles. Comparing the same techniques, my comments stand. I say this not to disparage, but in simply evaluating the engraving alone side by side. A Midas grade Superposed I had and hunted with for many years was a very nice gun, but the birds were indeed crude by comparison, and I've seen scores of others I have similar comment about. The best I've seen on Brownings in recent years have been the Mallard, Pintail and Black Duck series made in the '80s. They were excellent, pardner.

Wow, GF1, you must have very high taste in guns and engraving. I will still disagree with your assessment. In fact, if you still have that crude Midas or any other crude Brownings, I will begrudgingly downgrade my collection and take them off of your hands at crude prices.

Well, I've been looking at high grade guns for years and comparing the engraving of a Midas of other standard "high" grade Browning to a Purdey or other Brit best is unfair to the Browning as there is no comparison.And I've looked under magnification too.

Thanks for that handsome offer, but they went down the road when the prices began to dramatically outpace their intrinsic value (including a European B2G and B4 that I bought overseas many years ago).

I know it's cold and lonely up there, but you should get out more...

Does anyone have pics of these great Brit or Italian Best guns that make the classic Superposed look crude? Apparently I need to educate myself. And no lasers!!!

Compare a field grade superposed to a Winchester 101 of the same time period and see what crude is.Browning apparently thought they had to cover the action with engraving, regardless of how well it was done, to compete.This was pointed out in the Gun Digest when they did a side by side comparison of the 2 guns when the 101 was introduced.I much prefer the toned down engraving that they put on the field grade superlite Brownings.It was well done and set off the gun nicely.

RHD45, we're not talking Field Grade guns on this topic, we're talking about higher grade guns. Besides, the 101 is just an exterior copy of the Superposed, matching it virtually line for line in it's shape and form since 1963, or 33 years after the Superposed set the standard for American O/Us.

The late Don Zutz said in his fine book, The Double Shotgun, that..."the Diana grade may well have been the greatest bargain ever offered American shotgunners. Superbly engraved (italics is mine) and with checkering and wood to match, its fit and finish went unquestioned."

As I look through my Schwing book, and see the incredible engraving work of Master Liege engravers like Funken, Vranken, Watrin, etc, etc, I have to laugh at anyone that would callously call these masterpieces "Crude." That is simply a laughable position. Look at pages 110-111, 118, 146, or really the whole book.

Sure, a grade 1 is simple, but that's by design. I have toured Holland and Holland, Purdey, and the Browning Custom Shop, and the high end Browning engraving is, in my opinion, just as good and certainly not crude.

I am still waiting to see pictures of these Continental guns that make the finest Browning Superposed look Crude, and NOT done in Bulino or Bank Note style. I'm talking chisel and file.

Well,just look at the double signed Funken in this thread. Do you really think that can be called master engraving?I'm sure Funken would even agree that his best work is far beyond that particular engraving on that gun.Not every master engraver produced a master piece every time he engrave a gun. The Browning engravers were covering a gun according to grade to meet a certain retail price point.

Yes, that would be called a business, and it's how companies make money. Master engravers don't engrave for free. A Midas took more than 60 hours to engrave. That's why they sold for a certain price point. The mechanics of the gun are the same as the grade 1.

A grade 2 Pigeon is not a masterpiece...its a Grade 2. But it can be done by a Master, or at least signed by one, as was sometimes the case.

I have an FN gun engraved by Funken on both sides, the recoil pad is browning...not sure why?

Just sharing the pics of my gun,cannot comment on engraving as I am no expert.

A nice "crude" engraved Browning at Holt's:

http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...4&saletype=

Gunwolf

Yes, much better and a 3 piece forend to boot.Lovely gun.

Well I agre with No Dak Scotty. Funken was the founder of the Liége engraving school in the beginning of the 50th. And I.M.H.O. the work of J. Baerten and Vrancken is without any question outstanding.What I have heard from Liége gunmakers is that Funken signed many pigeon grade guns engraved by his students. Scotty you forget to mention that the Marechal family engraved many pigeon guns.
Marc.

Marc, you are right. The Marechals were outstanding too. I wish my 1966 Pigeon was signed, but it is not. The Pigeons are shaded heavily though and stand out nicely from the light scroll work around them. That's what collecting these fine old guns is all about though, each one is somehow different.