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Posted By: Drew Hause Alternees - 12/20/14 09:31 PM
Some have seen this thread but I thought I'd go ahead and post it here to clear up some issues
http://parkerguns.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15082

Good place to start
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...MNs5L2XVfc/edit

It all starts with the lopin or billet: thin strips of iron and steel called 'alternees' or leaves.

The lopin is heated, hammered, and/or rolled into a rod, stripe, band, blade, iron, or rope – THEY ALL MEAN THE SAME THING and in the finished barrel are described as a 'scroll' by their appearance in Crolle pattern damascus.

The scrolls are larger in 2 Iron/Stripe and (usually) progressively smaller 3 to 4 to 6 Iron.
The size of the scrolls is dependent on how tightly the rods are twisted before being hammer welded into the ribband AND how many alternees are in the rods.

2 and some 3 Iron/Stripe crolle patterns usually have 7 or 8 steel (which stain black) and 7 or 8 iron (which do not stain so silver) alternees or leaves within the scroll.

2 Iron



3 and 4 Iron might have 6 and 6.

Parker D3 refinished by Dale Edmonds



4 and 6 Iron usually have 4 and 5 or 4 and 4. End view of the rod with 4 steel and 5 iron alternees



4 Iron



6 Iron with 4 and 4


Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/20/14 09:40 PM
More complex patterns of course require more complicated 'stacking' or 'piling' of the billet, as shown by this Washington or American Flag illustration.



The Damascus and Twist barrels of most U.S. gunmakers were finished in a black and white pattern; BLACK BEING THE STEEL AND WHITE, THE IRON AFTER STAINING. In this illustration however, the black 'stars' are iron and after finishing will be silver.

Posted By: craigd Re: Alternees - 12/21/14 03:21 AM
Hey Doc Drew,
It's possible that there are a bit more 'alternees' than you are thinking. For instance, in your first two pictures, the 2 iron and the Parker D3, it looks like the 'lopin' have better than 20 layers prior to twisting.

It's possible that both those barrels started with very similar 'lopin', I count somewhere around 24 layers for both. The difference is likely that the 'lopin' on the Parker D3 example was drawn down, forged, to a smaller square cross section before twisting. Just thoughts is all.
Posted By: cadet Re: Alternees - 12/21/14 03:22 AM
I find this stuff beautiful and fascinating. Thanks for sharing.
Posted By: SamW Re: Alternees - 12/21/14 12:24 PM
It is very fascinating...I keep wondering how the end pattern shown in the blank ends up a surface pattern on the barrel?
Posted By: Sam Ogle Re: Alternees - 12/21/14 12:38 PM
Just a quick "Thanks" for sharing these pictures.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/21/14 01:36 PM
Thanks Craig, and you are correct. I should have 'splained it better.

I've never found the word 'scroll' or 'leaves' in the mid to late 1800s Belgian and British descriptions of methodology or pattern nomenclature. Alternees is obviously French. Steve Culver already told me neither a c. late 1800s nor modern blacksmith would approve smile Dr Gaddy used the scroll or whorl words, and I do think they are appropriate descriptive terms

That said, the 'scroll' that we see in the pattern is made up of the 2 halves of adjacent rods hammer welded. The rod would have at least twice the numbers I stated for the 1/2 scroll.

You can count the alternees pretty easily in this image, and can see how the 'outside' alternee joins the adjacent scroll. I count 12 and possibly 13 iron alternee, for a total of 24 or 26. The rod is between the two 'zipper' (wavy) welds.

Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/21/14 01:57 PM
These are a Two Iron 'Horse-shoe' pattern. One can clearly see that the leaves between the zipper welds are connected ie. part of the same rod





As are the leaves in this 4 Iron 'Turkish Star' pattern, which makes the 'stars' between, not within, the scrolls



Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/21/14 02:07 PM
This is Steve Helsley's Powell with 'English Two Stripe' and the lower barrel quite clearly shows the zipper (wavy) weld which is down the middle of a scroll but is the weld of adjacent rods, and the straight weld where the edges of the ribband are 'jumped' or butt welded. I count 24 alternees.

Posted By: ed good Re: Alternees - 12/21/14 02:29 PM
wonderful thread.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/21/14 03:32 PM
Parker Grade 6 toplever hammergun with 6 Iron 'Turkish' and a remarkable 24 alternee.

Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/21/14 10:07 PM
For the three still interested smile it appears (about) 24 is the most common

Engines Of War: or, Historical and Experimental Observations on Ancient And Modern Warlike Machines And Implements, Including the Manufacture of Guns, Gunpowder, and Swords with remarks on Bronze, Iron, Steel, &c.
Henry Wilkinson, M.R.A.S. London 1841
p. 70 Part III On The Manufacture of Fire-Arms, And Modern Improvements.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0XJeF_oa3SMC
The iron called Damascus, from it’s resemblance to the celebrated Oriental barrels and sword blades, is now manufactured in great perfection in this country, as well as in France and Germany, and may be varied in fineness or pattern to almost any extent, according to the various manipulations it may undergo. One method is to unite, by welding 25 bars of iron and mild steel alternately, each about 2 feet long, 2 inches wide, and 1/4 of an inch thick; and having drawn the whole mass into a long bar, or rod, 3/8 of an inch square, it is then cut into proper lengths of from five to six feet; one of these pieces being made red hot is held firmly in a vice, or in a square hole, to prevent it from turning, while the other end is twisted by a brace, or by machinery, taking care that the turns are regular, and holding those parts which turn closer than others with a pair of tongs, the rod is by this means shortened to half it’s original length, and made quite round.

1851 Great Exhibition of the Industry of all Nations: Official Catalogue
http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/1851_Great_Exhibition:_Official_Catalogue
Class VIII. Naval Architecture, Military Engineering, Guns, Weapons, etc.
200. WILKINSON & SON, 27 Pall Mall — Manufacturers.
A series of illustrations, showing the different stages of the manufacture of gun-barrels:
(A.) Horse-shoe nails, or stubs.
(B.) Old coach-springs, cut up by means of shears.
(C.) Scrap stub-iron.
(D.) A gun-barrel in its various stages, made of a mixture of stubs and steel (A. and D.), first twisted into a spiral, then partially welded by jumping, then completely welded, and the figure of the iron brought out by acids.
(E.) A bar of iron made from scrap (C), for Damascus twist.
(F.) A bar of steel, made from scrap (D.), for Damascus twist.
(G.) Twenty-one bars of iron and steel (E. and F.), packed alternately for welding
(H.) Twenty-one bars (G.) welded together.
(I.) A square rod made by drawing out the mass (H.) between rollers.
(J.) The square rod (I.) twisted round its own axis, and then flattened, showing the figure produced.
(K.) Specimen to show the manner in which the figure called Damascus twist is produced; two bars or rods (I.), are first twisted round their axis the whole length, the one to the right and the other to the left, then flattened and welded together, then twisted spirally to form the barrel as in (D.), partially welded by jumping, and the welding completed, filed at the end, and the figure produced.
(L.) A similar specimen, finer; composed of two bars of 48 alternations of iron and steel.
(M.) A similar specimen, composed of three smaller bars of 21 alternations.
(N.) A similar specimen, called "chain twist."
(O.) A similar specimen, called "steel Damascus."
(P.) A finished barrel, composed of seven different kinds of twist.

The Irish Industrial Exhibition of 1853: A Detailed Catalogue of Its Contents
John Sproule 1854
http://books.google.com/books?id=cNKl8YYZejsC
The process of making Damascus barrels is more complicated, as involving a greater number of stages. The strand in this case is composed of three or four twisted rods instead of two, and they are all generally twisted in one direction; but it is in the manufacture of the rods themselves that the essential difference consists. These are no longer stub iron or decarbonized steel, but are formed of from twenty to four-and-twenty alternate layers of iron and steel welded together.

The New American Cyclopaedia: A Popular Dictionary of General Knowledge
George Ripley, Charles Anderson Dana 1859
http://books.google.com/books?id=kL9PAAAAMAAJ
Greener describes the most perfect work of this kind as being done at Liege, Belgium. Alternate bars of iron and steel, 32 of each, are piled and rolled into a sheet 3/16 of an inch thick; this is then slit into 3 square rods, which are twisted till the lines resemble the threads of a fine screw, and 6 of these are placed together and welded into one. The figure produced is exceedingly fine…

Appleton's Dictionary of Machines, Mechanics, Engine-work, and Engineering, 1873
http://books.google.com/books?id=zi5VAAAAMAAJ
Gun Barrels
http://books.google.com/books?id=zi5VAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA936&dq
The iron called Damascus from its resemblance to the celebrated Oriental barrels and sword-blades, is now manufactured by welding 25 bars of iron and mild steel alternately, each about 2 feet long, 2 inches wide, and 1/4 of an inch thick…


Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/21/14 10:30 PM
De La Cononnerie Ou Fabrication des Canons de Fusil
By M. Ronchard-Siauve
http://books.google.com/books?id=uedDAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA202
Annales Société d'agriculture, industrie, sciences, arts et belles-lettres du département de la Loire, 1864
http://books.google.com/books?id=uedDAAAAIAAJ
Turkish or Curly Damas
This Damas was invented first and is still one of most beautiful which can be made. One distinguishes two varieties from curly Damas: the large one and the small one. The piece to make large Damas is composed 35 to 40 alternees half iron half steel, one welds with the hammer as for the ruban, but then with the of place; to stretch in rods the pieces divided to make barrels directly of them; one stretches them beforehand out of square rods of 5 lines or 12 mm. on side.
The manufacture of the curly Damas always was improving at these last years, where the one managed to make of the Damas of a finess and of one régulanté really admirable. To obtain this result, nevertheless always about same manner is operated; only, one composes the pieces with some alternees of less and one makes the rods much thinner. For the Damas very fine, one reduces the rods in 2 square lines or 4 mm 1/2 of dimensioned, and the torsion of' is made; a perfect regularity; also to make the ribband, the five rods are put, and to obtain the wanted length from it, as far as is needed; with twenty-five rods of 5 feet or l meter, 65 length.
Posted By: craigd Re: Alternees - 12/21/14 11:19 PM
I believe there may be points that are overlooked a bit, and I believe some of your lab pictures support.

The various scrap materials that form the original bars or 'alternees' are forge drawn to some length. Point being that any inclusion or flaws are reduced in cross section and aligned lengthwise.

The process of layering and twisting dilutes and prevents any one flaw from influencing integrity of a final barrel. Forge welds are very different than today's stick or wire welds, and one would think the final possible weak point, or welds between the ribbands, would be well tested during proof.

Thanks for taking the time Doc Drew. Merry Christmas.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 12:02 AM
Thanks Craig
The energy dispersive x-ray spectroscopy (EDX) performed on the 2 Iron crolle specimen by METL suggested that element migration between the iron and steel occurred during the manufacturing process (heat and high pressure rolling and hammer welding multiple times); likely part of why the finished product performs like a mono-metal rather than a laminate. The chemical composition of the barrel was similar to AISI 1005 low alloy steel.

Y Feliz Navidad para todos los Caballeros aqui! smile
Posted By: keith Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 02:03 PM
I'm just amazed that, even considering lower labor costs, these barrels could be produced at a cost that could make an affordable gun.Doc Drew, have you ever found any information on how many man hours went into producing an average set of Damascus barrels?

As always, many thanks for providing this fascinating info. Merry Christmas.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 02:43 PM
http://books.google.com/books?id=kCkuAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA1433&lpg
BRIEF SUBMITTED BY MANUFACTURERS OF DOUBLE-BARRELED BREECH-LOADING SPORTING SHOTGUNS.
Hunter Arms Co., Fulton, N. Y.; Baker Gun & Forging Co., Batavia, N. Y.; J. Stevens Arms & Tool Co., Chicopee Falls, Mass.; N. R. Davis & Sons, Assonet, Mass.; The H. & D. Folsom Arms Co., New York, N. Y.; The Hopkins & Allen Arms Co., Norwich, Conn.; Ithaca Gun Co., Ithaca, N. Y.; Lefever Arms Co., Syracuse, N. Y.; A. H. Fox Gun Co., Philadelphia, Pa.; Parker Bros., Meriden, Conn.; Meriden Fire Arms Co., Meriden, Conn.; The Harrington & Richardson Arms Co., Worcester, Mass.
Washington, D. C., January 10, 1913.
In support of continued tariff restrictions on finished double barrel shotguns.
The cost of production of a double-barreled shotgun here, as compared with the cost abroad, is more than double (the difference in cost being made up almost entirely in the difference of wages paid in Belgium as compared with the wages paid in the gun factories in the United States). We cite Belgium, as seven-eighths of the guns imported into the United States are from that country. Any material reduction of the present tariff would be the means of crippling or destroying the double shotgun industry.
To establish the fact of difference in wages we quote from Daily Consular and Trade Reports issued in Washington by the Government, dated August 31, 1912, page 1117, the following:
"The wages paid in the gunmaking industries in Belgium vary from 77 cents to 96 cents per day for the ordinary workmen, and from 96 cents to $1.54 for skilled workmen. In spite of a steady advance in the cost of living there was a tendency to reduce the scale of wagea of the workingmen employed in gunmaking."
And, according to data published by the Beligum Government in the Annuaire Statistique, which gives the official figures for 1910, shows the following daily wages:
"About 65 per cent of the men workers over 16 years earn less than 68 cents; of the women, 67 per cent earn lees than 39 cents, and 93 per cent less than 58 cents per day."
We mention the wage scale of women because a large percentage of work in Belgium gun factories is done by women and children. It is therefore a very conservative estimate if we assume that the wages paid in Belgium for this class of work is something less than one-third the wages paid for the same work in this country, and the cost of a gun manufactured in this country is composed of over 80 per cent labor.
For example:
A gun that costs the American manufacturer $20 to produce, represents: Material, $4; labor, $16; total, $20.
The same gun in Belgium would cost: Material, $4; labor, $5.33; total, $9.33.

The conversion of Belgian francs to U.S. dollars in 1900 was about 5 francs to 1 dollar. In Ferdinand Drissen's 1897-1898 price sheet, the complete charge for the replacement barrels and gunsmithing for '3 band Crolle' was 80 francs or about $16.
In 1900, Jean Lejeune of Nessonvaux listed the following prices for damascus barrels alone: 'Oxford'-16f, 'Boston'-10f ($2), and 'Birmingham'- 8f.
In 1914, Arthur Delvaux-Heuve of Nessonvaux offered '3 Band Boston' and 'Star' for 14 francs, likely before Germany invaded.

Lots of infro here, but no specific mention of how many hours went into producing a 'rough forged tube' or finished double barrel
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...DVe9ur3mCo/edit

I BET STEVE CULVER WOULD KNOW
Posted By: Steve Culver Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 03:57 PM
Quote:
I BET STEVE CULVER WOULD KNOW


Thanks for believing that I am so knowledgeable Drew! LOL! This question came up in another thread, some time back. Below is my response to it.

I've been doing some calculations on how long it would take to weld a twist damascus barrel. I've based my calculations on the barrel being made in the 1924 video. The process thus being timed is for a barrel in a 3 iron crolle pattern.

Mentioned earlier in this post was Lemoine's statement about barrels undergoing 300 heats. Examining the statement closely, I believe the 300 heats mentioned was actually for two barrels; 150 heats for each tube. Based on my recent calculations, 150 heats per tube may be slightly on the high end. Unless perhaps, Lemoine was also counting all of the heats required to process the damascus rod stock into a barrel.

Numerical calculations suggest that a 36 inch riband coil could be welded into a solid tube in about 50 heats; IF everything went perfectly. I think a fair estimate of the actual number of heats is closer to 100. This figure falls between the calculated minimum and the 150 heats given by Lemoine. So 100, is the number of heats that I used for the time estimates.

My calculations are based on all of the work going perfectly. The smith/smiths are at their best and working efficiently (not too many beers the night before). The forge fire is absolutely perfect and heating the metal in the shortest possible amount of time. Seldom do all of these things come together at once…..

I've started the calculations at the twisting of the damascus rods. Six rods would be required. The six rods would be welded into two ribands. The two ribands wound on a mandrel and scarf welded together near the center of the spiral coil. The coil then welded into a solid barrel tube.

Total time required to go from damascus rod stock to welded barrel tube; 11 1/2 hours.

Note that as there were two, or more, smiths working on a barrel at the same time, this equates to a total of 23 man hours.

These estimates are ONLY the actual amount of time that the material would be in the forge, or on the anvil. There is no time included for building the forge fire and the necessary maintenance of the fire during the entire forging process. No time is allowed for the smiths to take breaks/lunch. Also not included is the time for the oft mentioned cold hammering of the barrel tube to improve the metal. I expect the cold hammering process to take at least one hour per tube.

The above calculations also do not include foundry time required to make the iron and steel. Nor piling, welding and drawing the lopin out into rods to be used by the barrel smiths. It also does not include time required for boring, straightening, grinding and finishing of the barrels to display the damascus pattern. I could do a SWAG estimate of the time required for that work. But, it would be just that; a guess.
Posted By: Daryl Hallquist Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 04:31 PM
I suppose one could interpolate manufacturing time for Damascus barrels from Pete M's dvd on Damascus barrel making in Belgium.
Posted By: craigd Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 05:18 PM
Doc Drew, on your site under 'Belgian Damascus Trade' there is a reference to 2000 damascus barrel makers in the trade putting out approximately 600,000(300,000 pairs) barrels per year in the late 1800's (pg. 16). Working in teams of two, a thousand damascus barrel makers seem to have developed some higher degree of efficiency to put out the numbers that they did.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 05:46 PM
Weren't most of the billets (rods) sourced from the rolling mills? I believe they were more or less factories and capable of quickly turning out very large quantities for the trade.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 06:05 PM
Joe is correct. Even by the mid-1800s rolling mills were in operation. PeteM has an image of a patent drawing on his site, but I don't know the date.

Engines Of War: or, Historical and Experimental Observations on Ancient And Modern Warlike Machines And Implements, Including the Manufacture of Guns, Gunpowder, and Swords with remarks on Bronze, Iron, Steel, &c.
Henry Wilkinson, M.R.A.S. London 1841
p. 70 Part III On The Manufacture of Fire-Arms, And Modern Improvements.
http://books.google.com/books?id=0XJeF_oa3SMC
For the finest...barrels, a certain proportion of scrap steel, such as broken coach-springs, is cut into pieces and mixed with the iron by the operation called puddling, by which the steel loses a considerable portion of its carbon, and becomes converted to mild steel, uniting readily with the iron, and greatly increasing the variegation and beauty of the twist. In whatever manner the iron may be prepared, the operation of drawing it out into ribands for twisting is the same. This is effected by passing the bars, while red hot, between rollers until extended several yards in length, about half an inch wide, and varying in thickness according to whichever part of the barrel it may be intended to form: these ribands are cut into convenient lengths, each being sufficient to form one-third of a barrel...
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 07:19 PM
Drew, somewhere around here I have a woodcut of a 18th century rolling mill. I suspect they have been around a lot longer than commonly thought. Will try to find it.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 07:57 PM
Not the one I was thinking of but this early rolling mill is from the late 18th century and similar to the one used by Paul Revere. Notice it appears to be water driven and I imagine the cog wheel is wooden. The level of sophistication in industry during the 18th century amazes me.



Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 08:53 PM
Not a rolling machine, but for mechanized twisting
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20h/a%20heuse%20riga%20gb.htm

The 1888-1890 Birmingham Proof House Trial included several "Machine Forged" pattern welded barrels
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...TEK8OtPYVA/edit
Posted By: keith Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 09:15 PM
Joe, I'd guess you are correct that the 18th century mill was water wheel driven, but I think the larger drive gear is part of a very old technology that is being reintroduced as "new and superior". Google Tsubaki Pin Gear, or just Pin Gear and you'll see what I mean.

As they say, "nothing new under the sun."

The coupling of the rolling mill stand to the slitter stand suggests that even this mill process had evolved over time from something even simpler.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 09:28 PM
"Venus at the Forge of Vulcan", Jan Brueghel the Younger of Antwerp, Belgium c. 1605



Fellas on the right are using water wheel powered grinding stones and (foreground) trip hammers
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 10:36 PM
A thread from the early days of our Damascus research with several images posted by PeteM, including fellas holding rods fresh from the rolling mill
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...&PHPSESSID=
Posted By: craigd Re: Alternees - 12/22/14 11:09 PM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause


Tough to tell, but this may be a rifling machine. That twist on the bottom looks fixed to a gear and may be a way to move the work along the carriage. Nothing on the setup look 'quick release' to get hot work on and off before it cools to unworkable. Just wondering, appreciate that uncover these records.
Posted By: Tom Martin Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 12:55 AM
Steve and others: I think you may be overestimating the time required to make a barrel if you are assuming that only one barrel was being forged at a time. I believe that more time is required for heating the metal to welding temperature than the time available for hammering before the metal cools below welding temperature, so I would expect that for efficiency, work would be carried out on more than one tube at a time, with one or two in the fire heating while one was being hammered. I was fortunate to heve grown up in a small town with an old time, 3rd generation blacksmith, and watched him for many hours, so I have a good idea of the processes, and that is what I base my comments on.
Posted By: Steve Culver Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 01:27 AM
Quote:
I suppose one could interpolate manufacturing time for Damascus barrels from Pete M's dvd on Damascus barrel making in Belgium.


Daryl,

I did use Pete's movie for information. Mostly, to make sure that the barrel smiths didn't have some amazing ability to work fast. They were certainly good at their work. But, the amount of work that they were able to accomplish in each forging session at the anvil was pretty much standard fair for blacksmithing.

Another time consuming thing that any blacksmith must allow for, is the time required to bring the steel to forging heat. It just takes a certain amount of time to reheat the metal in the forge after each session of hammering on the anvil. I made a calculation for the average amount of reheating time required, based on my experience with the type of forge being used in the movie, the tools that the smiths were using and the mass of the barrel being welded in the movie. This reheating time calculation, I multiplied by the number of heats that I calculated would be required to weld a barrel tube.

Quote:
I would expect that for efficiency, work would be carried out on more than one tube at a time


Tom,

I agree with you!! Though it didn't show it in the movie, I expect that the smiths worked on more than one barrel at a time.

Did anyone else do the math on the 2,000 barrel makers producing 600,000 barrels in a year?

I expect that the barrel smiths worked at least 12 hour days (probably more like 14 to 16). They probably also worked six day weeks.

12 hours x 6 days = 72 hours
72 hours x 52 weeks = 3,744 hours
3,744 hours x 2,000 men = 7,488,000 man hours
7,488,000 man hours divided by 600,000 barrels = 12.48 hours per barrel
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 01:57 AM
Has anyone considered how many of the barrels were pistol? I'd say 1/3 possibly 1/2 as a wild guess. Is the total fluid steel & pattern welded? Also, tubes were supplied in different states so how many man hours for a rough bored tubes vs. a finished one? For a time, I'd say the worked 7 days a week and the proofhouse was also open 7 days a week.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 02:49 AM
Consider that two to three men would compose a team so we don't have 2,000 individual teams but half or less. Also, I've heard nothing of the use of trip hammers (machine made) in barrel making factories to increase efficiency.
Posted By: Steve Culver Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 03:04 PM
Quote:
I've heard nothing of the use of trip hammers (machine made) in barrel making factories to increase efficiency.


Joe,
W.W. Greener mentions in "The Gun and Its Development", that powered machinery was used in Birmingham for damascus barrel work. He states that tilt-hammers were used for forging. I cannot imagine that there were no Belgian smiths using trip-hammers.

Quote:
Has anyone considered how many of the barrels were pistol?


Raimey,
I have not seen a word written about the forging of tubes specifically for pistol barrels. Again in "The Gun and Its Development", Greener wrote one sentence about octagon barrels being forged on a properly shaped anvil and rifle barrels being welded on smaller mandrels. Pistol barrel forging would be virtually the same as forging of a rifle barrel. I would be very interested in knowing of any other documentation concerning the forging of rifle and pistol barrels.

Not having found much information on the subject, I have my own speculations on the source of pistol barrels. In short; I believe they were forged from tubes that were welded for shotgun barrels. Certainly there were a number of shotgun tube forgings that had a flaw in them, making them unsuitable for producing a long barrel. Some portion of these tubes would have been sound enough to re-forge into shorter barrels.

My own work with forging damascus pistol barrels, convinces me that forging a large bore tube down to a smaller caliber can easily be done. The entire subject of forging small bore tubes, including small gauge shotgun tubes, is something that I am keenly interested in. Lacking information, I have my own wild speculation about the process, but no sound historical information. Rather than hijack Drew's thread, I would entertain a separate discussion on this topic.
Posted By: craigd Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 07:37 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve Culver
....In short; I believe they were forged from tubes that were welded for shotgun barrels....

....forging a large bore tube down to a smaller caliber can easily be done. The entire subject of forging small bore tubes, including small gauge shotgun tubes, is something that I am keenly interested in....


It is interesting Steve, and I always appreciate your comments.

A point I think worth considering is, if a shotgun tube has been welded and formed to show a correct finished pattern, wouldn't reforging to some smaller diameter distort the pattern.

Also, if the correct pattern is uncovered in the center of the material, to some extent the better rifled barrel makers might have intentionally welded them up differently than a shotgun tube to account for greater wall thickness and appearance. Only thoughts and sorry Doc Drew.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 08:45 PM
CARRY ON GENTLEMEN! smile

I've avoided any effort to research pattern welded rifle and pistol barrels, but for your interest

Charles Daly (Sauer) Drilling Diamond Regent Grade. Barrels marked "Fine Damascus."





It is my sense that the transition from pattern welded rifled tubes to Bessemer/Decarbonized/Plain Steel/'Rolled (Bessemer) Steel' and eventually to fluid steel occurred much earlier than it did in shotguns, and was driven by improvements in military weapons

Fire-Arms Manufacture 1880 U.S. Department of Interior, Census Office
"The earliest use of decarbonized steel or gun-barrels is generally credited to the Remingtons, who made steel barrels for North & Savage, of Middletown, Connecticut, and for the Ames Manufacturing company, of Chicopee, Massachusetts, as early as 1846. It is also stated that some time about 1848 Thomas Warner, a the Whitneyville works, incurred so much loss in the skelp-welding of iron barrels that he voluntarily substituted steel drilled barrels in his contract, making them of decarbonized steel, which was believed by him to be a novel expedient. The use of soft cast-steel was begun at Harper's Ferry about 1849. After 1873, all small-arms barrels turned out at the national armory at Springfield were made of decarbonized steel(a barrel of which will endure twice as heavy a charge as a wrought-iron barrel), Bessemer steel being used until 1878, and afterward Siemens-Martin steel."
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 09:00 PM
I've only seen Damas Moire' on pistols and rifles



"Watered Silk"



2 c. early 1800s percussion pistols





c. 1844 Valentin Funk & Sohne




Posted By: ellenbr Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 09:09 PM
I just scanned thru the above for now, but I too think that all tubes were similar to scattergun gun tubes, including solid projectile/rifled tubes and then their final state was destined by the application. Mostly because I have not see a rifled pattern welded tube price list. Sometime around 1900 - 1902, there were 150k braces or sets of pattern welded tubes with the bulk in rough form going to the U.S. of A. Typically single tube exports were 1/2 that of sets. The cost of the tube was a dollar to a dollar & quarter. Total production for those years were approximately 600k as you state but pistol tubes were also included. At this time there were in excess of 50k workmen, workwomen & work-children. Around 1907 info suggest that the American market was strongly shifting to fluid steel.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: keith Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 10:17 PM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Total production for those years were approximately 600k as you state but pistol tubes were also included. At this time there were in excess of 50k workmen, workwomen & work-children. Around 1907 info suggest that the American market was strongly shifting to fluid steel.


Absolutely! While I agree with the calculations of man hours per rough tube for the barrel smiths, that would only be a fraction of the total time involved in the production of a finished set of Damascus barrels. And that remains the source of my amazement that these guns were made affordable to the average shooter of the time. Of course, final boring, reaming, chambering, striking, soldering, etc. would be virtually the same for fluid steel tubes. But for Damascus production, we would also have to factor in the hours of apprenctices and laborers who fired and tended the forges, plus a myriad of other support tasks, also going back to the man hours of the early rolling mills which supplied the rods and ribbands.

Steve's comment about forging good sections of rejected shotgun tubes down into smaller bore pistol tubes makes me wonder if some mill operator or smith wasn't the inventive mind responsible for using specially ground rolls in a mill to accomplish this task. The process of piercing a heated billet and rolling it to finished O.D. and I.D over a mandrel bar to make seamless pipe and tube goes back to the 1800's. It seems that a lot of that technology could have had its' roots years earlier in the gun production trade.

As always, a fascinating subject and a reminder of the ingenuity of some men.
Posted By: craigd Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 10:36 PM
Originally Posted By: keith
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Total production for those years were approximately 600k as you state but pistol tubes were also included. At this time there were in excess of 50k workmen, workwomen & work-children. Around 1907 info suggest that the American market was strongly shifting to fluid steel.


Absolutely! While I agree with the calculations of man hours per rough tube for the barrel smiths, that would only be a fraction of the total time involved in the production of a finished set of Damascus barrels....


Keith and ellenbr, that 50k number may be the total number of all Belgian trade workers supporting the industry at the time. The document referenced on Doc Drew's site says of that number, about 2k were damascus barrel makers. But, agreed, it would seem that only rough tubes come out of the shops.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 10:39 PM
Your are correct, 50k - 80k folks were employed in the weapons trade from the mid 1890 till early 1900s.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 10:48 PM


I believe workmen were being paid 65 cents to 75 cents per day.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 11:05 PM
Drew might have gotten the 2k tube maker number from number of workers employed at FN to make tubes.

I've seen more than one article to indicate that circa 1905 that near 15k barrels were submitted for proof daily at the Liege proof facility. At least 3.5k were wheel guns & they the whole of the cylinder was counted as 1.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/23/14 11:16 PM
Board of Trade Journal, Volume 10 1891
http://books.google.com/books?id=-X3NAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA556&dq
The most important industry of Liege is the manufacture of firearms. There are over 180 gun-makers in the town alone, and in the district the industry gives employment to more than 40,000 workmen.

The New York Times, May 3, 1896 “Costly Belgian Gun Barrels”
The United States Consul in Liege describes, in a recent report, the manufacture of and trade in damascus gun barrels, wholly hand made, in the valley of the Vesdre in Liege Province. These barrels are for sporting guns, and the industry is many years old, the workmen in the villages in the valley being almost all gunbarrel makers, and the trade descending from father to son. The best barrels are a combination of the best primary substances, welded and forged by the martelage ‘a froid process; the steel comes from Westphalia, the iron is manufactured at Couvin, in Belgium; the coal, which is specially suited for the work, from the Herve’ Highlands, in Belgium, while the motive power of the factories is obtained from the River Vesdre. The industry has increased greatly in recent years.
These armes de luxe, as they are called, are made by men working in pairs, each pair in its own little factory, quite independent of all others. They are paid by the piece, the wages being good, and about 2000 men are engaged on the work in the valley. Medium quality barrels are made of coke iron and steel, while the superior quality, which are produced in the Vesdre Valley, are made of charcoal iron and steel. An ingenious “marriage” of these metals gives a composition which, when manufactured, guarantees the required solidity and resistance. The improvement in these Damascus barrels dates from the introduction of percussion caps in place of the old flint lock. Formerly iron barrels alone were produced; now to manufacture the curled damascus, the ingot is composed of thirty sheets of iron and steel, each having a thickness of four millimeters, which are enveloped in a sheet-iron box, placed in an oven and welded together at the lowest possible temperature. Each barrel receives 150 welding-beats while being forged, and if a single one of those is unsuccessful the barrel may be a failure, either by alteration of the damascened work or an imperfection in the welding.
There is no official test of these armes de luxe, but they are thoroughly tested by the manufacturers before delivery. The annual production of Damascus barrels in the Vesdre Valley is about 300,000 pairs, of a value of about 3,500,000f. Of this the wages alone- for all the guns are handmade- amount to about 2,000,000f. The principal markets are Great Britain and the United States. About half the barrels made in the Vesdre Valley are sold to manufacturers of arms in Liege to be mounted.

Manfred Sachse estimated that more than 700 workers were making damascus in the Liege region in 1897.

Commercial Relations of the United States with Foreign Countries During the Year 1903
By United States Bureau of Foreign Commerce, United States Dept. of Commerce and Labor. Bureau of Statistics, United States Bureau of Manufactures.
"Gun Barrel Industry in Liege"
http://books.google.com/books?id=piEZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA330&dq
"nearly 70,000 persons of both sexes are engaged in the making of guns, barrels, and stocks..."

More here
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...3mCo/edit?pli=1

Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/24/14 02:32 AM
O/U Percussion Pistol with Acid Etched 4 Iron Crolle

Posted By: Steve Culver Re: Alternees - 12/24/14 02:30 PM
Quote:
A point I think worth considering is, if a shotgun tube has been welded and formed to show a correct finished pattern, wouldn't reforging to some smaller diameter distort the pattern.

Also, if the correct pattern is uncovered in the center of the material, to some extent the better rifled barrel makers might have intentionally welded them up differently than a shotgun tube to account for greater wall thickness and appearance.


Craig,
Reforging a tube would cause a small change to the damascus pattern, though not significant. It would only cause the pattern to be slightly smaller. It would be entirely possible to select a shotgun tube that had a pattern of a size that would look appropriate after reforging.

In Greener's comment about making damascus rifle tubes, he does also state that they were welded of thicker riband. Having thicker barrel walls on ball and bullet barrels would seem to be logical. Though for black powder use, thicker walls are not entirely necessary for containing pressure. With a barrel for a gun intended to fire very heavy loads, one would want thicker walls. But as with the barrels on the O/U pistol that Drew posted, they are fairly thin walled. There is a whole myriad of considerations for barrel wall thickness, including how the barrel will be breached and how it will be affixed in the gun stock. There is also some consideration for the thickness of the riband, to effect the creation of the damascus pattern. It's a deep subject and one for which I am not certain that I have all of the answers to; only some experience based speculations. It will require a rather lengthy dissertation to work through my hypothesis. In other words; it's gonna' take some 'slpaining. I think it would be better if I start another thread on the topic. Things are about to get busy in our house for the holiday. I'll try to compose some words and post in a few days.

Drew,
Just for clarification, moire' describes damascus that does not have a distinct created pattern?? Random swirls??

The barrels on the percussion pistols seem to me to be faux damascus. The direction of the layers in the pattern seem illogical. Though if faux, they were thoughtful enough to etch in lines for the riband edge welds.

The Valentin barrels look like genuine damascus. Maybe a conglomeration of scrap metal pieces.

The pattern in the knife blade, I would call a lazy ladder pattern. Low layer count and wide spacing on the ladders. Below is a bowie that I recently made. The blade is a 330 layer ladder pattern.

Posted By: ellenbr Re: Alternees - 12/24/14 03:50 PM
1912 source -

"Practically all of the gun barrels used by American shotgun manufacturers are imported from Belgium. Several American manufacturers undertook to make these barrels, but finally had to give up the attempt, as they could not begin to compete with the product of Belgium factories, which are imported free under the present tariff. Parker Bros Gun Co erected an addition to its factory put in up to date machinery and brought men from Belgium to show their blacksmiths how to make gun barrels. This company soon had to give up the attempt however as they had to pay their blacksmiths from 32 to 40 cents an hour while the highest wage paid Belgium blacksmiths for exactly the same grade of work is 11 cents an hour."

11 cents per hour for the blacksmiths.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/24/14 05:07 PM
My only resource for Damas Moire' is here, only partially translated from the original
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...67VsZgzJ9Q/edit

Canon à ruban moiré et ruban anglais
By manufacturing the lopin, to make the iron and steel barrel from which I come to speak, it arrived sometimes that the forgeur is misled, with the of place; ce qui avait confondu toutes les mises ensemble. The canonnier, unaware of the error made, once the forged and déroché gun, is found amazed to see appearing a completely odd nuance, imitating the effet de moire. It is this the Canon Moire' was called.
This kind of barrel, whose discovery is, as one sees it randomly, due, is very resistant; unfortunately it is too prone to present pailles, because of the number infinite of the weldings of which always some are imperfect. By joining together three or four pieces together and by always preserving the dish of the settings corresponding to the dish of the ribbons, one obtained a little later finer watered effects. It is with Celt variety of moire that one gave the name of English ruban.

Canon à rubans fer étoffé
This ribbon is to some extent that a variety of watered effect. To do it, the pieces are composed as we will explain that one does it for the Damas mouchetés, to say one joins together 100 iron alternees and of steel, square, alternated, that one welded and stretches directly in rubans like one does it for the watered effects, without making torsion and of the second welding as for the Damas.

I suspect it is a variant of "English Damascus Twist", Damas Anglais Coupe', Gebrochener Englischer Damast, or Combination Damascus; and both seem to be mid-1800s patterns.

H. Needler 12b percussion double.



More examples at the beginning here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19228742
Posted By: craigd Re: Alternees - 12/24/14 05:30 PM
That may be fairly quick and easy Doc Drew. Might be just a round punch making regular dimples along an untwisted layered bar. Round shapes are displaced out of the straight layers, then when the grinders level it back out it could look like 'pool and eye' pattern. Maybe taking on an oval shape because of some drawing out of the length of the bar.

oops, it does say 'without making torsion'.
Posted By: craigd Re: Alternees - 12/24/14 05:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve Culver
....Reforging a tube would cause a small change to the damascus pattern, though not significant. It would only cause the pattern to be slightly smaller. It would be entirely possible to select a shotgun tube that had a pattern of a size that would look appropriate after reforging.

In Greener's comment about making damascus rifle tubes, he does also state that they were welded of thicker riband. Having thicker barrel walls on ball and bullet barrels would seem to be logical....


Thanks Steve. Somehow, it would seem that good purpose made rifled barrels needed more material on the inside of the barrel. It would have likely needed to be welded on a smaller diameter mandrel, some of them have quite thicker wall thickness than a shotgun tube, but the makers ended up with the correct pattern showing on the exterior.

Some of those pistol barrel pictures have heavily distorted patterns. Probably bottom of the scrap pile and signs of expedient reforging. It would seem that some nicer sub bore shotgun barrels and smaller diameter rifled barrels may have been purpose built. Even careful reforging to a smaller diameter might show the logical elongation of the patterns that were already formed in the larger bore barrel.

Thanks for all the time you take to explain. Beautiful Bowie, very nicely done furniture and finishing.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/24/14 08:55 PM
Tough work

Adolph Menzel, "The Iron-Rolling Mill" (Modern Cyclops), 1875

Posted By: keith Re: Alternees - 12/24/14 09:48 PM
I think I see one or two possible OSHA violations!

Merry Christmas to all.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/24/14 11:47 PM
Rolling Mills in France, from De La Cononnerie Ou Fabrication des Canons de Fusil, M. Ronchard-Siauve
http://books.google.com/books?id=uedDAAAAIAAJ&pg=RA1-PA202

In 1830, after the revolution of July, the organization of the national guards having brought great orders of weapons of guerre has Saint-Etienne, it was an occasion favorable for the clever spirits to seek manufacturing processes faster and more economical. Mr. elder Boivin, mechanic of a great merit, like Mr. Girardet, of the Comte’, had then the idea to substitute for the use of the hammers and the trip hammers that of the rolling mill, non-seulement for the manufacture of the lopins for canons a rubans [Twist], as well as rods for the Damas, but still for the direct manufacture of the canons de guerre ou canons lisse.

They carried out their tests on Rue Trefilery, in the factory currently occupied by Mr. Perret (Adrien), which also carried out the first tests there; a new industry for Saint-Etienne, celle du pudlage des fers lins à la houille. It arrived unfortunately, in this circumstance, that too often in the industry when one tries to make a progress by the substitution of the work of the machines to that of the men. The emotions were worked up in the workmen canonniers: the rolling mill went, said to them one, them ùter all their work. The heads were assembled at the point a riot burst out. A troop d' ouvrie; s exaltés invaded the new establishment and broke all it could break. The life even of the authors of this test was put in great danger, and they do not last their safety with the intervention of kind neighbors who lent their assistance to them to make them escape secretly. La Garde Nationale was transported, in vain, on the spot to stop the disorder; it was attacked itself with stone blows, and several men, in particular those of the company of artillery, were seriously wounded. It has been for this time that Saint-Etienne was equipped with permanent garrison.

These tests of manufacture of the guns to the rolling mill, thus unfortunately stopped, were continued later in Saint-Julien, close to Saint-Chamond, but with little success. One made weld with the hammer of the manchons (sleeves) of approximately 30 cm, to have a better welding, then one passed these sleeves to the rolling mill to lengthen them and give them the shape of the guns. In spite of this modification in the process, there were always so many rejects one finished by abandonnder these tests in our countries for in holding with the old system.
Posted By: Steve Culver Re: Alternees - 12/26/14 03:28 PM
I tried to do some translation research on the word Moire'. It appears to be a French word with perhaps a Norwegian language background. The translation is a combination of the concepts of "shimmering effect" and "memory". Perhaps similar to the ripples that continue after a rock is thrown into water. Or in the case of damascus steel, the effects remaining in the damascus pattern as a result of hammer blows on the metal. The English Ruban naming of the pattern, must be derived by attributing the pattern's appearance to something found in Celtic artwork.

Quote:
By manufacturing the lopin, to make the iron and steel barrel from which I come to speak, it arrived sometimes that the forgeur is misled, with the of place; ce qui avait confondu toutes les mises ensemble. The canonnier, unaware of the error made, once the forged and déroché gun, is found amazed to see appearing a completely odd nuance, imitating the effet de moire. It is this the Canon Moire' was called.


I read this paragraph as saying that the barrel welder discovers that he has made a barrel from poorly prepared damascus rods. The iron and/or steel not sufficiently welded and folded to homogenize the scrap pieces before it was stacked in the lopin. This results in a random appearing patterning, caused by the individual scrap pieces showing in the etched barrel. ce qui avait confondu toutes les mises ensemble. = which had confounded all put together

Japanese swordsmiths took homogenization of blade steel to the extreme. They purportedly folded their steel, up to a million layers. Still after this concerted effort to homogenize the metal, Japanese blades have been described as being made of "watered steel". The etched blades displaying faint ghostly swirls, resembling water spots on a table top.

Quote:
Might be just a round punch making regular dimples along an untwisted layered bar.


I won't argue against Craig's thoughts too strongly. He is correct that punching the layered bar will facilitate creating the pattern shown in the photo. However, the effects of the multitude of hammer blows that fell on the barrel tube is probably sufficient to cause the pattern. Modern damascus smiths call this "Random Pattern" damascus. This term coined probably in the mid 1970's. Bladesmiths who use this pattern, usually will intentionally leave hammer marks on the surface of the forged blade. Grinding away the hammer marks, rather than forging the blade surface smooth, will develop a degree of patterning in the steel.

Quote:
Even careful reforging to a smaller diameter might show the logical elongation of the patterns that were already formed in the larger bore barrel.


Craig,
I don't wish for my comments to seem that I am picking on your analysis'. wink You are correct that on the face of it, it seems logical that forging a barrel tube smaller would elongate it. However, it does not. This is one of the interesting pieces of the puzzle, regarding forging small bore barrel tubes.

Forging a solid round rod smaller, will definitely cause it to elongate. The rod is compressed between the hammer and the anvil, causing the material to move laterally. The lateral movement of the metal will lengthen the rod.

In forging a hollow tube to a smaller diameter, the upper surface of the tube is not supported by the anvil. Without the anvil to support the underside of the metal, there will be no compression of it, thus no elongation of the tube. Hammering on the tube, will only drive the sides of the tube closer together. I'll dig into this subject deeper, when I post the thread on forging small bore barrel tubes.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 12/27/14 01:08 PM
For those still reading smile more on Damas Moire

Moire’ comes from the French mouaire (mohair) and is defined as "having a watered or wavelike pattern." Moire (noun pronounced "mwar") and moiré (adjective pronounced "mwar-ay") are now used somewhat interchangeably in English, though moire is more often used for the cloth and moiré for the pattern. (I think Bro. Larry helped with the French)

Watered silk is a textile which has a moire pattern, a rippling illusory pattern created by lines which are superimposed on each other. Watered silk resembles a body of water with small waves trembling in a breeze.

Moiré Antique effect is obtained by first damping the material and folding it with the face side inward, and with the two selvedges running together side by side. The cloth is then passed between heated cylinders and under pressure. Moire Anglaise is an imitation produced mechanically by means of engraved copper rollers.

Effet de moire' refers to the pattern seen when two plates of plate glass have a thin film of water between them; not unlike oil film on water. In textiles, it is used to describe the wavy lines in silk patterns.

Moire' effect seen on a parrot's wing



Another modern Moire' blade



This might be acid etched Moire'

Posted By: craigd Re: Alternees - 12/27/14 03:47 PM
Maybe the woodworking term 'chatoyance' is a more modern description of moire'. You may be describing finishing techniques more so than just patterns. Kind of like visualizing case colors, changing light reflections can change the appearance, but the look seems to fit better with soft curved patterns rather than corners and points.

Thanks for the time Steve and explanation. Makes sense, and I look forward to your new thread.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 08/25/16 03:29 PM
Bro. Steve remains on a possibly Quixotic quest for the "Lopin Rosetta Stone", without which we can't really KNOW how the incredibly creative and artistic damascus patterns were obtained. He's been in contact with Continental knife makers, and found this from Manfred Sachse's Alles über Damaszener Stahl, 1993. Unfortunately, the source of the examples is uncertain, though likely Delcour-Dupont.

Top, left to right: 1. Rampant Lion; 2. Chain; 3. Boston, a symmetric large scroll 2 iron Crolle; 4. ? Bernard.
Bottom, left to right: 1. Star, American Flag, or Etoile'; 2. A higher grade Damas Crolle, probably 3 or 4 iron; 3. Washington; 4. Obviously similar lopin to Boston, but probably used for 2 Iron Oxford which was asymmetric.


Posted By: lagopus Re: Alternees - 08/26/16 02:48 PM
Drew, all this fascinating research needs to lead to a book on the subject. Lagopus.....
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 08/26/16 06:10 PM
Thank you Grouseguy, but our British correspondents have yet to find the "English Damascus Rosetta Stone" wink
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/18059733
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 10/31/16 08:26 PM
Many thanks to Bro. Daryl who alerted me to this Lefaucheux action Imman Meffert In Suhl with Bernard variant barrels. I think this is likely 'end-on' of the thinner 3 iron ribband segment that was folded when butt welded to the thicker breech barrel segment. Steve Culver would know



Looks like the upper 4th lopin segment shown above
Posted By: PeteM Re: Alternees - 11/01/16 01:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Bro. Steve remains on a possibly Quixotic quest for the "Lopin Rosetta Stone", without which we can't really KNOW how the incredibly creative and artistic damascus patterns were obtained. He's been in contact with Continental knife makers, and found this from Manfred Sachse's Alles über Damaszener Stahl, 1993. Unfortunately, the source of the examples is uncertain, though likely Delcour-Dupont.

Top, left to right: 1. Rampant Lion; 2. Chain; 3. Boston, a symmetric large scroll 2 iron Crolle; 4. ? Bernard.
Bottom, left to right: 1. Star, American Flag, or Etoile'; 2. A higher grade Damas Crolle, probably 3 or 4 iron; 3. Washington; 4. Obviously similar lopin to Boston, but probably used for 2 Iron Oxford which was asymmetric.




These are hanging on the wall at the Curtis Museum in Leige. There is no more info about them. I spoke with the curator about this piece on display. He only knew that it has been on the wall for years. I am sure any other info has been carted away and locked up.

I would be very careful about sharing / displaying this photo. The folks at the Curtis are very protective. I have been dealing with them for years and they still treat me like a thief in the night. They occasionally grace my email with ranting emails in French over some small item or another.

Pete
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Alternees - 11/08/16 07:01 PM
Fortunately Bro. Steve has been paying attention to the details of these lopin examples smile
The top right is NOT Bernard. Note the tiny 'donut holes'.
I'm pretty confident it is a variant of Damas Chine', likely Chonin or Thonin.



Remington called it "Pieper P." Slightly different; this 1894 EE refinished by Brad Bachelder



Posted By: ellenbr Re: Alternees - 12/14/16 02:22 AM

Terms DAMAS BOSTON on an early Belgian sidelock.




Cheers,

Raimey
rse
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