I am posting this review of a dealer who refuses to do the right thing. There is no liable issue, The facts are the facts. No name calling. You be the judge.

Shooters Investments of Raleigh, NC.

I recently had a high grade Browning shipped to my shop that a customer of mine wanted. He had me make the purchase.
Here is description from the website listing:
Collectors, shooters and hunters, this is hard to find combination Featherweight Superposed. It is the Continental Belgium made Browning with 20 gauge and 30-06 barrels. These were made on the light weight Featherweight platform. This one comes in its original box with manual. The 20 gauge barrels are 26in Mod and IC. The 30-06 barrels are 24in. This set has only light use with a couple minor marks on the stock. It will make a nice addition to any collection. I am selling this one on consignment and as such lay-a-way can’t be used. It does of course have the standard 3 day inspection. Shipping and insurance is $60 and please email me with any questions or larger pictures. (I now consign quality firearms @ only 10%! Let me know if you have any you would like to sell!) [14-0139]

http://shootinginvestments.com/Browning%...search=Browning Superposed continental

as you can see, no mention of any cracks in the stock. Says light use with only a couple of minor marks on the stock. Any reasonable person would expect a sound gun.

Price was agreed on and the gun was shipped to my shop. The day the gun was delivered, I inspected the box prior to opening as I do on all shipments. No damage, dents, scuffs . I pulled the wrapped buttstock out of the box and unwrapped it and inspected the buttstock. There was a crack in the wrist, small but there none the less. I immediately took photos and called Jay Barrington of Shooters Investments. He asked if I thought it was a new crack form shipment or an old one. I told him that it appeared to be an older crack. He said to return the gun. I did and it cost over $75.00 to return. Now there is a total of the gun cost plus shipping to me and return shipping. Shipping both ways was over $135.00. Jay refunded the purchase price only and no shipping. I emailed Jay and his response was that his policy is no refund on shipping. My customer paid the cost of the gun and shipping, I paid return shipping. Jay says that his policy doesn’t allow him to refund shipping. Jay admitted that he didn’t see the crack when he shipped it.










I told him that we are no taking about a difference in opinion on condition or whether the customer really likes the gun or not. We are talking about a gun that is broken and was broken before it was shipped to me. And now I have to pay shipping both ways. My customer wants all of his money back and Jay say he doesn’t have to pay return shipping nor reimburse the original shipping.

On Feb 2, 2015 8:57 PM, "Brian Perazone" <bpgunsmith@catskill.net> wrote:
Jay,
I received a check today for XXXX.00.
I am concerned that I was not reimbursed for the shipping.
I understand that if the return was due to my not liking something about the gun but having a stock cracked through the wrist , and as you said, you missed it, I shouldn’t have to pay for that mistake. Please advise if you are going to refund the shipping.
I sell on the internet also and if I shipped a gun with a structural defect and didn’t see it and the customer called and told me about it and wanted to send back, I would pick up the tab and refund the initial shipping.
I really don’t see how I shouldn’t get my shipping refunded. This was not an opinion on condition or I didn’t like the color of the wood, it was broken.
Please advise.
Brian
His response:
From: Jay Barrington [mailto:shootinginvestments@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 9:58 PM
To: Brian Perazone Gunsmith
Subject: Re: Browning issue
I qm sorry about this. I cant refund shipping for any reason...as you said the hairline crack was very hard to see and I certainly didnt know it was there. I am surprised you expect me to cover it especially on a used consignment gun .....I am again very sorry.
My response:
From: Brian Perazone [mailto:bpgunsmith@catskill.net]
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 10:22 PM
To: 'Jay Barrington'
Subject: RE: Browning issue

not even my initial shipping?
How is it my fault and I have to pay for some one else’s error?
The crack may have been hard to see but it was there. You shipped a gun that was not usable. How could I accept that?
You really aren’t going to hose me on the shipping are you?
Do you really conduct business this way?
If a dealer sent you a gun that you bought and it was like that, you wouldn’t want your shipping back?
His response after he initially would t even respond:
“See all my adds......return for any reason but shipping and dealer fees cannot be refunded....why is that hard to understand.....I sold 1200 guns last year with about 10 returned....no one else expected shipping to be refunded.”
I told Jay that if I sent a gun to someone under these circumstances; I didn’t see the crack, I would have refunded everything the customer paid and return shipping. The customer would t pay for the dealers mistake. If the customer knew the stock was cracked ,they never would have bought the gun.
Judge for yourself. Let Jay come on here and refute what happened. He cant. He just doesn’t want to do what’s right.
In my book, when you ship damaged goods, the end user isn’t stuck with the bill.
I would suggest being very careful when engaging in business with this person.

Sorry, but that's always been the deal when I have returned one I bought sight unseen. Most dealers make the buyer pay shipping both ways. Your customer should pick up the tab. And to be frank, I was always just happy getting the money back for the gun. It's a roll of the dice buying off the internet and shipping charges are part of the bet.

Has he changed his add for the gun to reflect the broken stock ?

While I agree he probably should eat the shipping-consignment or not,most dealers are not that honest,in fact there are some that rely on the shipping costs to return guns as a buffer to slip defects on to the next buyer !

no, the description is as I copied it off of his website today

Brian - He owes a full return on every dime spent on the gun. He's supposed to be an expert in his field and he missed a crack that big? I seriously doubt it. But even if he did miss is, it was a defect that rendered the gun to be NOT as advertised and he is responsible for his advertising as well as for expenses incurred as a result of his error.
Those are the "rules" and he can't break them? Who says so? Who MAKES the rules? HE DOES! And he can break or alter any of his rules as long as it benefits his customer.
This guy needs to come clean or suffer the consequences of bad 'Internet' press.

I was recently in a similar situation, big difference is the dealer fully refunded shipping both ways and offered an additional $50 for a steak dinner for my troubles. I declined the offer, but think the money arrived anyway.

stock is obviously broken...

seller should refund all of your costs, including round trip shipping...

maybe he will read this thread and realize that he is being penny wise and pound foolish.

Sounds slightly better than old Ed Good's return policy though.
He wouldn't of admitted to such a "Gross Error" as a cracked stock.
But I think the Dealer is liable for all costs.
I would be a little pissed off
Franc

but then, dealers return policy is clearly included in his advertisement.

Returns: Our return policy is simple. If for any reason you are not pleased with your purchase, you may return your item for a refund. The only exception is ammunition, it cannot be returned. It is important to us that you are happy. Grading and describing used firearms is subjective and especially with collector quality guns, different people have different expectations. Any time you buy a gun without seeing it in person, you should have the option of returning it. You will always have that option at Shooting Investments. Guns cannot be fired or dissembled before returning them and must be returned in the same condition as received. Notification of a return must occur with-in 3 days of receipt at your dealer. Shipping and dealer fees are not refundable and are the responsibility of the buyer.

and otte: as to my return policy, you and i have never done business; so whatever you have to say about my return policy is just mean spirited conjecture on your part...

however, here is a link to my latest actual feedback as posted on gunbroker. this is a real indication of my return policy and how it works for me and others...

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewUserFeedback.aspx?User=128526

when someone ships something that is defective, the buyer should bear no expense. regardless.

Absolutely, if the seller has any integrity. The no refund policy should not apply. It is obvious that some sellers lack integrity and hide behind their return policy.

You might want to post your experience on some of the dedicated sites like Parker, Elsie, Fox, etc.

Ed
Like Seinfeld said...yadda yadda yadda.

Re:
What he means is that he can, but he won't. He owes you the shipping cost. If I were in your buyer's position, I'd give the seller a bit of time to see the error of his ways, and then I'd find ways to make his life miserable. The fine gun community is pretty small, so you as a gunsmith probably don't want to do this, but your buyer certainly can.

Guys:

If I make an error like this I refund the shipping. However, I have had many folks sent me guns for purchase, the description that they gave me about the gun and the gun that "actually" showed up were different. I called and said where is the gun you described, as the one you sent was not the one you told me about. I think the guy sending the gun to me should have paid for the return shipping, but I paid.


I guess from now on I will make them pay!

John
Quality Arms

Failure to identify the cracked wrist is a misrepresentation of the gun. It's not like it's a minor cosmetic fault. If, in fact, the seller didn't notice this than it is not only an issue of misrepresentation, but of competence as well.

Both are on him, you should be refunded shipping as well. This should be a reputation issue for the seller.

Regards
Ken

Postscript to my original post:

I have purchase guns from various major "knowed" gun auction companies, names that you would know right away. I have had serious oversights from them in the descriptions. Buffed receivers, serious cracked stock, broken items. I have never been able to get them to pay for shipping. I have paid for the shipping to me and back to them. Wish they thought like you guys!

John
Quality Arms

As Ken stated it was misrepresented, the buyer said it was sound with "this set has only light use with a couple minor marks on the stock". He noticed that but did not notice the crack running around the wrist. Shame on him.
If you just paid for this by credit card, I would call the credit card and tell them your circumstances and have them cancel it, if a check, stop payment. Then see what he has to say about refunding the shipping.......both ways.

I'm with you Brian.

There are precious few stand up gentlemen in the business these days.

dealer should do the right thing and refund full cost...

however, his terms and conditions are very clear.

That's for sure.. This dealer is a real piker if he doesn't make the buyer whole, and soon. There is no defending this behavior no matter whether you are selling shoes or firearms..

otte: too bad you have nothing positive nor constructive to add to this thread...

Which in no way excuses him of misrepresentation and consequential fraud. His policies are only valid if he applies "Full Disclosure" when selling his wares.

ken: good point...cept, you are suggesting seller intentionally committed fraud, by not disclosing cracked stock in his advertisement, and thus did not provide "full disclosure"...

makes no sense that he would intentionally commit fraud...just like it makes no sense that he would not make an exception to his stated policy and refund buyers full cost...beginning to sound like sellers ego is clouding his good business judgement.

Ed,

As I stated before, if the seller did not see the crack it becomes an issue of competence. A seller who is not competent to accurately describe a gun's faults and condition is still responsible. The buyer is not responsible, and he should get his money back due to the misrepresentation, intentional or not. It would be a good learning experience for the seller, who now risks serious damage to his reputation as this could easily be considered dishonest.

Brian, in your correspondence with Jay Barrington, he said this:

"I qm sorry about this. I cant refund shipping for any reason...as you said the hairline crack was very hard to see and I certainly didnt know it was there. I am surprised you expect me to cover it especially on a used consignment gun ..."

But I don't see anywhere that you said that this was a hairline crack that was very hard to see. Even though your pictures are larger than normal size, I think any of us except the legally blind would be able to see that crack in the wrist with the most cursory examination. Did you happen to pay with a U.S. Postal Money Order? If so, I would attempt to initiate a Mail Fraud claim. Too bad you weren't going to North Carolina for some reason, for I think you would prevail in a small claims court action on this one.

I am glad that you told us how Shooters Investments of Raleigh North Carolina does business. I agree with your opinion that not refunding the shipping on a gun that was grossly defective beyond the written description is deceptive and wrong. Even if it was an honest mistake, being a good and honest businessman would dictate doing the right thing and refunding all costs associated with the transaction. Customer satisfaction and goodwill is a lot more important than $75.00 that he could use as a business expense at tax time.

Ed, would you have even given Brian the money back for the gun, or would you have accused him of swapping a good stock for a broken one with identical grain?

keith: your bogus, mean spirited question is not worthy of serious response.

Sorry, that must have been another ed good who has a return policy that would give even Jesus difficulty, and who has stated his belief that many people who attempt to return guns are dishonest people who buy a gun just to swap broken parts for good ones.

I've returned two guns for problems that weren't disclosed in the add. One purchased on Gunbroker, one on Auction Arms. In both cases I got nada zippo on a refund for shipping expenses. In both cases I got business checks sent to me minus the original shipping expense and was told that return shipping was my responsibility. I was also told they had to pay the commission fees to Gunbroker/Auction Arms and since they couldn't obtain a credit from either one of the auction services, they were losing money anyway. Anyway, it seems it is what it is. Sadly.

I have only purchased a few guns off internet/over the phone. I had a minor issue with a recent purchase. The seller's response was immediate. He sent me a prepaid shipping label to his gunsmith. He is covering the cost of the repair and is paying for the return shipping to me as well.

tut: it is what it is, depending on who you are doing business with...it very important that you post feedback against those you feel have done you wrong. that is the only way the rest of us can avoid doing business with those whose only purpose in selling on gunbroker is to make money, without concern as to what is fair...

and read the sellers terms and conditions. and if he does not address potential issues, then ask questions.

it still amazes me, that so many sellers do business on gunbroker with no return policy! dont know how they do that, but they do.

For what is approaching 40 years of buying probably way over 100 guns by mail, with few exceptions, I've had to pay shipping both ways, regardless of the reasons or issues. A whole lot of those were when shipping and insurance was $20-$25, no big deal. Now it runs twice that and more, so it hurts worse than it used to.

I learned way back to ask if the seller would sell AND ship the gun for X dollars, so you at least felt like he was paying for one way.
JR

Thats says it all right there,material defect undisclosed,returned and STILL undisclosed.

Unfortunately there are many sellers on line-including 2 on this forum ,Alvin Linden (bogus descriptions on GB)and Ed Good,no clear return policy that in his own words "works for him"who use it to the sellers advantage and buyers disadvantage
Not to Long ago a new member came on here to try and get Ed to live up to is return policy after he was stuck with an off face gun and Eddy threatened him !:

http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthrea...3787#Post383787

Brian you are right that we need to be aware of this seller and how he handles his mistakes. Lousy. If he was a first class seller he would refund your shipping cost because the mistake was his not yours. I have dealt with you and know what a stand up guy you are. But in the real world, when dealing with sellers off the net you will find too many interested more in profit than keeping a reputation.

Were you getting this gun in for a customer or to sell to a customer? If the first then he should pay the shipping. As noted before your other option is to post this transaction on about ten forums and see how he likes that much bad publicity out there. That seventy dollars of shipping would be worth hundreds of dollars of bad press, if everyone knew the facts. And once out on the net it never goes away. A potential buyer can do a search and hear about this years later. I do a search for sellers problems before I buy a lot of things. And nit all complaints are justified when you look into them but this one is in my opinion.

Spot on, Mr. Roberts. I'll add only this much-I'd NEVER consider a gun at auction, and I'm getting less and less inclined to buy guns I can't handle and inspect prior to my money going for them.
A few of the retailers in my neck of the woods don't accept returns on guns or ammunition, period.

Best,
Ted

Obviously this lowlife, bottom feeding, motor mouth, piece of shit never learns a lesson. When he intruded on my business once before, I listed the following in the listing he tried to ruin.

Note:... This CORRECTION WAS BROUGHT TO MY ATTENTION BY A GROUP OF YAPPING, BUSYBODY,LAPDOGS,SNIVELING,BOOTLICKING AND BACKBITING THUGS, LED BY "DAVE K" OF NEW HAMPSHIRE AT ANOTHER SITE. WHERE THEY HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO THAN STAY ON THEIR COMPUTER ALL DAY, GETTING INTO OTHER PEOPLE'S BUSINESS AND THEN CALLING THEMSELVES INVESTORS ETC.!!!!!!!!!! THANK YOU FOR YOUR KIND ATTENTION.

He threatened ,pleaded ,cajoled, whined, bargained and finally just, shut up about me removing his name. I left it for the world to see what a pocket of pus he is.

The following is that auction's resulting FEEDBACK verbiage [note 1 OF 107 A+ out of 108, only 1 neg, it was a SELLER'S retribution neg FB,over 10 years ago]
The following is what, I received from the sale of that maligned rifle, in spite of Dave K's and other's interference in the auction, attempting to convince the bidder not to buy.


455939577
A+ Beautiful rifle. Good communications. Quickly shipped. Hope to do business again.

alsharpe A+(174)
Seller 12/16/2014 4:59 PM

After listing his name he threatened me numerous times on DGS PM system and stated:
"he would hunt me down on the internet forever" among other threats. Now he shows up libeling my name again, without any provocation or contact from me, or mention of me whatsoever.

He threatened to go to the State Bar and I told him, he was an idiot.

Now without provocation, or anything done by me whatsoever, 2 months later, here he is bashing my name again and listing me on the DGS as a liar, crook etc. I will let those members here that have done business with me that are still living Rocky MT. BILL, LRF, XUSA, just to name a few, comment on my honesty or lack therof, if they so care to. However to deal with shit for brains, DAVID K. WHEELER, I will include the following in the verbiage of EVERY LISTING I HAVE, TO SELL A GUN, SCOPE, ACCESSORY,AMMO, ETC. from now on if he ever mentions my name again without first being provoked by me, after today. If he responds to this, I will immediately edit all my current listings to include the following statement:
[u]IF YOU ARE CONTACTED BY ANYONE WITH THE INTERNET NAME DAVE K OR BY THE NAME OF DAVID K.WHEELER, OF MILFORD NEW HAMPSHIRE, EXECUTIVE COUNCILOR FOR DISTRICT 5 FOR THE STATE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE AND OWNER OF MARANATHA CARPETS AND ENVIROMENTAL CONSTRUCTION PRODUCTS. [/u] attempting to discuss this weapon or item, please contact me immediately and report it, so I may take action to deal with this continuing problem"

My last words on this subject are... GOVERN YOURSELF ACCORDINGLY

Here is the thread from this clown Alvin Linden (Jerry Lee)

After he buys this gun he asks how to fix broken screw and who the maker is !

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=288489#Post288489

Then Linden-Jerry Lee makes up this add for Gun Broker-quite a story teller BUYER BEWARE:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=288489&page=3

BTW: I NEVER interfered with Jerry Lee's auction,just pointed out the auction on here and then,once he was caught he became,as always the rambling belligerent SOB he is showing himself to be ONCE again.

We need to point out bad sellers for the good of the hobby,even if they go off the deep end went CAUGHT like this clown!

While not ideal, i have simply accepted shipping costs on a failed deal is the price of the risk in doing long distance buying. Buying through shotgun news (when i was young) and now the internet has taught me that every purchase is a gamble in small part. I go into it eyes open knowing if i cannot accept the loss (costs) don't play

I realize that it is normal to want pure and honest, and pure and prefect performance by all in the transaction, but i am realistic people are human. I use my judgement.

I have paid the shipping on purchased then returned guns and simply accepted it. I have been burned twice in over 30 years of buying, i do not forget who did it, however to stay angry at them means i am in their power, and at this point God Bless them and beyond that i will not do business with them and i care less about them.

As painful and burned as you feel you have been, mark it to experience and move on. Don't forget the guy, but don't let thoughts of him dominate your day.

I normally stay out of threads that attack personally, as I do not believe I can possibly know the full facts and prefer not to attack anyone's person without fair standing.

The question of publicly noting those preceived "bad sellers" is a tough one for me. Like everyone else here I read the feedbacks on GB with caution and amusement. I do appreciate knowing if someone has issues of inconsistencies in their listings so i can stay clear of them. That said I appreciate best when individuals lay things out with clarity and avoid name calling.

I can only see what the posters post, the original gun with obvious cracks, and the earlier gun postings and ad that are in opposition of truth. I rather think i would enjoy a beer with the seller, and might buy from him given the correct item, but i would be careful, very careful to over value the sellers write-ups.

There is a seller in Olathe, Kansas whose listings fill-up GB. Though I know him personally (after several transactions) and I like him personally. I have no doubt he is descended from a long line of horse dealers and used car salesmen. He does offer some good stuff and at times some very fair prices.

When you get to the end of a gun deal it is about the gun itself and our preception of it. The gun is a fairly solid thing that if one takes the time to look carefully will get that figured out quickly. The preception is totally different, that is where the seller's talk can build up, confuse, or mislead. I rarely worry the seller story of the gun as it is not a big deal to me. For some i guess it matters too much.

I recently purchased an old sxs on GB, it was by a makker and engraver I sorely wanted. The gun was described as tight on face or words to that effect. As i am deployed and have not seen it my FFL tells me it is not. I still got what I wanted, a project gun. I move on knowing that either deceived me or himself as to what tight was.

Buyer Beware was a valid thought in ancient Rome and will never cease to be valid.

Brian:

Just wondering, if you received the gun for your customer and all you were doing is providing the ffl to receive it, why did you pay for return shipping. Your customer should have paid for it, not you. Then he is the one who should have been on the phone to the seller to work out the shipping charges refund, not you.

John Boyd
Quality Arms

You saw my post on our return policy, so I will not go over that again.

But let me play devils advocate,

You travel 30 miles to get a special TV, go on several toll roads, (like here in Houston). You get the TV home and you open the box and you find it marked up. It came from the manufacture like that. So you drive back the 30 miles to get a refund or exchange. (does not matter) "(I think we have all been down this route at onetime or another)
so you have 4 trips, 2 to get it and two to bring it home. Would you ask the store or manufacture for to pay for the gas and tolls, what would they say?

Just wondering?

John Boyd
Quality Arms

If the store knowingly sold you the marked up TV, then we would be having a long, loud discussion id they didn't make it right.

Very good point John. On the other hand if one purchases an item from Orvis or LL Bean and it arrives with a defect and you return it for a refund, I think that they will reimburse you for the shipping both ways. Probably not for the gas to drive to the Post Office if you don't have home delivery.

A few months ago I began a thread entitled "Why 3 day inspection periods are important", post #382414. I described a similar situation I was involved in, only with more, and more obvious, defects in the gun. I paid the shipping both ways, never expecting to receive any reimbursement, which was never offered. It is a cost of doing business. An honorable and sensible dealer would offer to pay the return shipping at least, but arguing with them won't get it done, IME.

The price of driving all over the country to personally look at guns would cost way more than the few times I have had to eat shipping. It only serves to make me more cautious, and ask more questions of the seller before "pulling the trigger".

SRH

I have bought a number of guns online up here in Canuck land. A few times, guns were not as described or defective. Glad to report that each time the seller made it right by either offering a discount or option of sending it back. I think I have sent 2 guns back. Both times the seller paid for return shipping ,and in one case, the seller gave me $50.00 for my trouble. These are cases where seller's wanted to keep a good trader rating by keeping customers happy. However, I am waiting for the day when I get shafted. As mentioned, it is buyer beware when buying online.

I would have asked the seller whether his shipping policy still applied if the gun proved defective or not as advertised. If he said yes then I would have asked the customer if he wanted to order it anyway. The responsibility should have been on your customer, not on you. JMO.

Okay, I did what we all would do. Acting on behalf of my customer (who was traveling outside of the country at the time) , I discussed the gun with the seller;confirming its condition as decribed in the ad, and there was no mention of a cracked stock. pretty straightforward buy; if it meets the standards set forth by my customer, buy it)we are talking a factory gun here, no custom specs. or anything unusual. The deal was made and gun was shipped. Now if gun was damaged in shipment, that is a whole different story, insurance kicks in, dealer cant help what the shipper does. all things out of his control. But the one thing in hos control was to make sure he sent a gun that was as described. we are not talking about degree of condition, % of case colors, % of blue original finish. all subjective assessments. we are talking a gun that was shipped with a broken stock, sold as with a sound stock. Either deliberate or by accident, the gun was shipped with a broken stock. otherwise, the dealer would have insisted that I have the package inspected and wait for insurance claim to process. Nope, send it back.

John, let me ask you this;
what would you do if you shipped a gun with a broken stock to a customer. ? would you make him pay both ways? or one way? or no way and take care of it?

In hindsight , I should have asked about return if it was broken. but who does that?
From now on I will though.

we can talk semantics about what is written, what was specified in the description but the bottom line question is ; is this he right way to handle a problem like this?
what is the right thing to do.

John

He is traveling. he is a close friend of mine (we hunt together all the time, family outings etc) . I have handled a number of transactions for him. Since he would not be there to inspect it, it was up to me.
he will make it right by me one way or another but the point is the dealer didn't even offer to pay one way. no offer of any kind to make it right .

Am torn on this one, as a rule "a deal is a deal" and his terms on return policy are clear. On the other hand from the photos the stock is clearly broken.

Fact that it's a consignment gun complicates it, he has to answer to the consignor if refunding shipping charges. Wonder how he is going to explain the break to the guns owner.

In the end able to return a 7,000 gun when not as expected for 75 dollars is not a bad outcome. It could have been worse.

Boats

What is the intent of the seller when,after disclosure of a material defect-cracked stock, still does not have it reflected in his add.

To me that says a lot,what happens to the next buyer who gets it ?Eating some shipping is one thing-and he should,he can go back to the consignor,or just figure is part of doing business,that small money,having the guns still for sale and no mention of it is something a lot worse.

Although its inactive now,I still have a real estate license and can recall many sellers after finding out the septic or well,or basement has water issues,still wanted to hide it.There are lots of people like your seller Brian,does not make it right thou.

Brian

You asked me how I would handle it
I already made that clear in my first post

However, like college you sometimes you have pay
To get educated.

I have learned may lessons in this business after 43 years

Sometimes you have lick your wounds and move on or it will consume you

brian: hopefully, by keeping this thread alive, your seller will take notice and do the right thing by refunding you all of your funds expended in this transaction.

sadly, some here have used this thread as a conduit for spewing out their bogus and mean spirited rhetoric.

Instead of a hypothetical story let me tell you a true one. I bought a gas stove two years ago from a large appliance/electronics store. The hookup and burner adjustment required someone from the gas company and their charge for the service was $75. This was disclosed at the time of the purchase and was expected. After two visits, and $150 out of my pocket for the service calls from my gas company it was determined by all that the stove would need to be replaced. When I went to the store to make the exchange I spoke with the manager. A day later I was contacted by the regional manager. She was insistent that they make things right for me. Since the new stove would also require a $75 service fee for hookup and adjustment she gave me a credit of $450, double what I was spending for service calls for the first and replacement stove. I have since bought a refrigerator and dishwasher from that store. Everyone isn't a shyster, it's just that so many people are that everyone has come to accept that as the way of the world and just part of doing business.

John Boyd has it exactly right. As a retired lawyer I would tell you that the seller is legally wrong and his "policy" does not protect him when he sells a gun clearly having a major defect that is not consistent with the description he used and not disclosed to the buyer. That is not changed because he is selling the gun for a third party. However move on and do not let it consume you. This happened to me a couple of times and I was so glad to get the purchase price back that the shipping cost I paid was almost irrelevant.
By the way this happened to me both times with unsophisticated sellers and both changed the listing after I pointed out the defect and returned the gun.

Move on...? On this forum? Seriously?

stories about tv deals and gas stove deals that went bad are of little value here.

what is of value here are stories about gun deals that went bad and how buyers and sellers worked it out to their mutual benefit.

having been a buyer and seller of antique and collectible firearms for over 30 years now, i have many contacts thru out north america and northern europe. many of those contacts are also my consignment customers. some are also my friends.

one of the values of having many contacts and friends is the ability to network for referrals. here is an example:

-sometimes, a consignment customer has several guns for sale. there are costs involved with consigning items. there are shipping and insurance costs, plus my humble fee. and an item needs to be of a certain value, for it to be worth my while to sell it. plus, i do not care to sell nor handle semi automatic firearms...

anyway, so often, i refer my consignment customers to others local to them that have proven their honesty and good judgement to me. some of my referrals are people that i once had an issue with, where i was the buyer and they were the seller...if they handled the issue in a respectful and honest manner, then they get added to my referral list...

on the other hand, those that conduct themselves in a rude and dishonest manner, are quickly forgotten, except for a personal note that says, do not make the same mistake twice.

point is, the seller of this $7000 shotgun, is nuts for not doing right by brain. how much future business has been lost due to his rigid adherence to his return policy regarding refund of shipping cost? and i certainly would not refer anyone to him, until brian informs us of his full satisfaction with this transaction.

there can be positive power in forums of this venue, if they are used for good purposes, instead of as conduits for bad purposes.

Ed - If you were the seller of this gun, doesn't your policy say "No Retuns"? If so, in this instance, the buyer is not out the shipping costs, he would be stuck with a broken gun

Hmmm

For my $0.02 I will say this seller is an idiot.

I have had a lot of online and long-distance firearms transactions. Most of them have been smooth with no issues.

There have been times when I have been disappointed, but the problem was a difference of opinion or expectation. I fully expect to bear shipping costs under those circumstances, and I am glad to have the right of return.

On a few occasions I have faced a problem similar to the original post. Two come readily to mind. One was the purchase of a S&W K-22 Masterpiece (pre-17) on GunBroker. The revolver arrived, and I immediately noticed its barrel had a ring inside about an inch behind the muzzle. I called the seller, had a very civil and constructive conversation. This seller insisted on refunding the full price and the shipping.

The other was the purchase of a WW2 "U.S. Property" Colt 1911A1 from an online advertisement. It was represented as entirely correct, but upon arrival it was a Colt slide on an Ithaca frame. This seller refunded the full price and all shipping.

I would happily do business with either seller again. I don't think the original poster will do business with Shooters Investments of Raleigh, NC again. That's no way to build a business. I suspect a lot of members here would shy away from this seller after reading this thread. I would.

Curl

Ed's policy says "I know what I'm selling, I expect you to know what your buying"...all done with pics n written description, only by mail...he wont let you see the gun in person..if Ed makes a "Gross Error" in his description, he might take it back...but I guess Ed decides the Gross factor,lol
franc

tud:

as i am currently closed for business until april, i see no point in discussing my future return policy.

You should close for good Eddy,
then you can go put your full attention and time into the Bloomberg for president campaign like you want to!

dave k: what you seem to be missing here and elsewhere is the fact that right now the only viable, proven big time election winners we have to consider for our next pres are cuomo and bloomberg...and even bloomberg is too old...

so who does that leave us with?

ah ax again: who can beat coumo?

otte; one of the joys of running ones own business is the ability to control how and with whom one deals with...

and as my published, 99% + positive feedback rating on gunbroker, apparently means nothing to you, i doubt if you and i will ever do business...which, most likely is a good thing.

america, what a wonderful country!

I'm with Curl . Ingrety means a lot to me on internet sale because all you have is someguys discription ... I like it when I call my buddy....expert on this site and he says your money is safe...that's my biggest fear. This dealer is stupid if you ask me.

Free opinion

Like others I have crossed this dealer off my list of those to deal with. One other dealer, who sells nothing but pristine, factory original, high condition guns needs to be taken with a very large grain of salt.

Several years ago I saw, on line, a Fox 20 AE for sale. It was listed as high condition, factory original, 95% case color gun with 28" barrels. At first glance it looked like a superb example of all that I wanted. I was interested at once and started looking at the picture in enlarged size on my computer.

Then the serial number hit me. I use to own that gun. But when I sold it, to the same dealer, it sported 26" barrels that were pitted, top rib loose, case color gone. The metal was clean but with very little finish. A decent gun, but one that was more of a project than anything else. I never lettered the gun so I do not know if it started out with 28" barrels or 26" but when I owned it they were 26".

When I called about the gun the conversation started to dry up after I asked if this was the same gun I had sold to him. Then I asked of he wanted the before pictures as I was sure I had them still he hung up. The gun sold quickly, I am sure, and the owner is happy with his factory original, high condition, rare Fox 20 AE. But that dealer is another one who I would not buy from or even believe him if he said water is wet. It might be in it's solid state and be cold and hard.

ky: if you did not know the history of this gun, would you have bought it?

sometimes it is better to believe in santa claus, rather than not?

think of the joy you lost by not owning an "original, high condition, rare fox 20 ae"?

Well Ed here is the flip side. What if I bought the gun and had it lettered only to find out my factory original gun came with a 26" barrel? How did they grow to 28"? When you place 75% premium on price, based on factory original gun with high condition, which the seller was doing, you better be selling the real thing. And that seller knew he was not. It was fraud plain and simple. But I still have the photos, both before and after saved just in case. I have seen this dealer mention only once or twice on this board and he has never advertised on this site. So he has no connection to this board.

Was the gun worth the price? A gun is always worth what the buyer is willing to pay, as long as he is getting what he paid for. This gun should have been sold as a nice "reconditioned" gun not a closet queen. Listed that way and sold of the same amount and I would have no problem with it at all. I know now who did the work and I am sure it was done well. So well that most here would never pickup on the job. If not for the fact I had owned the gun I would have not picked up on it but I had and I did. The dealer hung up when I questioned him about it.

To give the devil his due, you do describe work you have had done on your stock, even if others here so not like what or how it was done. To the best of my knowledge you do not try to pass off upgrades or reconditioned guns as high condition factory originals.

So Santa Clause aside, I do not think a fraud or theft by deception is something I would have liked. Think about how mad the buyer would be if we crossed paths and I told him and showed him he got screwed. Showed him the before and the after pictures. For that reason I will not let out the serial number of that gun or name the dealer. And I suspect that no claim could be made after this long but there I could be wrong. Sometimes statues of limitations start after the fraud is discovered in some locations. Still I have not intention of raining on someones parade. Let him enjoy his gun.

I dunno about that KY Jon. We've seen some of ed's torch colored LSD trip beauties described as having colors which duplicate factory original. May ed would be kind enough to put up some pics of the torch colored Parker that he described as likely being redone by DelGrego. We got a good chuckle out of that, but I doubt if Larry DelGrego would have been amused. If you look at post #382922 from 11/5/14, a gunsmith here is commenting on another Parker ed sold that was pictured with the gun not fully closed so that the top lever appeared to be right of center. Unfortunately, the pics are no longer available, but many here saw them. I think it is revealing when he tries to tell you that ignorance would be bliss after some shyster had cheated you by representing a redone gun as factory original. But ed wants to blame everyone else for the reputation that he has given himself here.

ky: problem with the letter thing, is that it takes some of the fun out of collecting rare factory original guns. before we could have collectible guns lettered, we saw them, we liked them and we bought them, for what they appeared to be to us...we were happy.

then, because collectible originals have become so popular with big money investors, the crooks jumped in and started creating faked guns that to even the most experienced collector appear to be original. the markets for big buck colts and winchesters are flooded with them...and the fakers letter erm first an then rework to the letter spec...so now, contemplation of buying a high end factory original gun creates anxiety until the gun is lettered. and, weather the gun is original or not is no longer the issue. the issue now is, will it letter? sometimes knowing too much about a gun can spoil the enjoyment of collecting it.

fortunately, collectible double guns are not as valued as much by investors, as are colts and winchesters; so the fakers dont spend their efforts so much on collectible shotguns.

and ky, thank you for your kind words...

an keith: your post above is so full of lies, untruths, negative conclusions, wishful thinking, fantasy and apparent hallucinations. i just have to shake my head from side to side in dismay at the juvenile nonsense you post here...

an for any adults who really care, once again, read my customer feedback on gunbroker and elsewhere....responding to this adolescent crap is so boring...

in order to post here, one should be required to provide proof of age. then perhaps some of the naughty children like this keith person here would go back to watching sponge bob and leave us to our hobby.

brian: have you heard from seller regarding refund of your shipping costs?

That seller is not as bad as you are Ed,so don't act like your somehow "above it all". You have been tossed off forums,stuck buyers with loose guns-and no refund ! And now your up to the same "I will sue you" BS that got you tossed off here before!

Ed - You never answered my question which I posed several days ago, saying:
"as i am currently closed for business until april, i see no point in discussing my future return policy."

Yet you continue to dig yourself deeper in the hole. Which is it?

BTW, I doubt that anyone cares about your "future return policy". More interested in your present policy

dave k: are you in fact david k wheeler of milford, nh, as recently revealed here by alvin linden?

or are you something else, that will remain anonymous here, so you can continue to post false, outrageous and mean spirited information here, with apparent impunity?

tud: what is the question?

Ed - Posted yesterday at 9:09

"Ed - If you were the seller of this gun, doesn't your policy say "No Retuns"? If so, in this instance, the buyer is not out the shipping costs, he would be stuck with a broken gun"

Thats Eddy boys specialty-digging himself deeper (besides threatening to sue,deceptive pictures,questionable return policy AND getting tossed off EVERY OTHER FORUM !

my return policy, as stated on gunbroker for many years is as follows:

"RETURN POLICY: Returns are handled on an individual basis. You can expect that i know what I am selling. You are expected to know what you are buying. All items are guaranteed to be as advertised. If I make a gross error in description, you may of course, return item with my apology."

For Christ's Sake Ed! Stop posting on this subject!!! It is pathetic.

Wherever you have been that has prevented you from posting the past month, please go back there.

dave k: so who are you, anyway?

only a stubborn, cowardly, bully would continue to do what you do here and believe he can get away it without consequences.

if you do not confirm your identity here then i may, in an effort to make you cease and desist your slanderous and defaming posts against me here and elsewhere.

"You are expected to know what you are buying." Lots of wiggle room there.

"If I make a gross error in description, you may of course, return item with my apology." Please give us your definition of "gross error in description".

ed I don't object to your defacto policy being "no returns." My objection is that your no-return policy is written up in a deceptive and ambiguous way so that your prospect buys under the delusion that he can return the gun if it is off face, loose, or otherwise defective but the defect is not listed in your ad. You delude the prospect that you accept returns when in practice you don't. He buys the gun based on that delusion. You are wrong to do that.

We have had this discussion here many times. I will be happy to dig up the threads about your actual application of your "return policy" if you want to continue this discussion.

dudley: agreed, bout done as much as i should to help brian get back his money...

and as for responding to personal attacks, are you suggesting that i just ignore them?

mike: as we have discussed here in the past my return policy has been refined over the years to provide me with maximum control and flexibility in my business dealings.

the proof of its effectiveness is illustrated by my 99+% positive feedback rating on gunbroker, going back to 2001, and my sale of over 1000 firearms on gunsamerica, since 1997.

bottom line: it works for me and it works for my customers...

This thread details your refusal to accept the return of a loose gun. You had not described it as loose in the ad but you still refused to let the buyer return it:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post348207

I can also quote some posts you have made about the application of your no-return return policy if you want to continue the discussion. I think I can find another thread or two about it too.

Yes... Ignore them. Try it.

Responding to them Is certainly not working out for you.

Guys - "Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig" - Mark Twain

well mikie, its, been a few years, but, as i recall, the buyer of this 100 year old english made osborne boxlock gun was disappointed that the barrels were a bit loose on the hinge pin with the forend removed. the fact that the gun was tight and on face when fully assembled and in firing position, did not impress him. and also the fact that i advised him that my gunsmith had evaluated the gun and judged it to be a safe shooter with light loads, made little impression on him as well. as i recall, he asked that i refund $300 to pay for repairs to the gun, which in my opinion were not necessary for safe functioning. i did offer to have my gunsmith take look at the gun again, at the buyers expense, to make sure it was safe to shoot. but, as i recall, be became angry and rather unpleasant and said he would take care of it and hung up the phone before i had an opportunity to discuss compromise alternatives...as i recall, we did not discuss return.

would you like hear about some guns that i did take back and provide full refund including round trip shipping costs? there are two that immediately come to mind if you are interested.

I'm not an Ed basher, but for God's sake, Ed, you surely know what you did in that case was wrong. You know, or at least should know, that a double shouldn't need the forend in order to not be loose. Your attempted explanation to justify your behavior just makes it worse. To suggest that the buyer should return it at his expense for the same questionable gunsmith to reexamine is absurd. Once again, you're hiding behind your murky "refund policy". Do you really need money so bad that you would compromise your integrity over such an issue or do you just want to "win" that much?

ed if you will read the subject thread:
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post348207
It is very clear that the buyer wanted to return the gun but you wouldn't let him. Nothing at all about rejoining.

Why don't you put some version of this statement in your return policy? Then prospective buyers could tell that it was going to be very difficult to return a gun that had an undisclosed problem.

If you want to continue this discussion I think I can find some more threads and quotes to support my opinion of your "return policy" and your application of of that policy.

cpa, you're trying to reason with a guy who clearly has no sense of right or wrong. He has called me a liar for pointing out some things that dozens of guys here also saw with their own eyes. I'm OK with that because I, and so many others, understand that we're dealing with someone who obviously has mental problems. He thinks that constant denial of the truth will make his own lies believable, but as you say, he only keeps digging himself in deeper. NBC's Brian Williams eventually reached a point where he couldn't run from his own lies and deceptions anymore, and he took a leave of absence probably hoping that people will forget. ed isn't smart enough to do that.

Personally, I'm glad that DaveW hasn't banished ed. Letting him keep making a total fool of himself is far worse punishment... it's driving him even crazier and aggravating him while he's on his vacation, and it lets unwary and uneducated gun buyers who happen upon this site know that there are some sellers that are best avoided.

edit: I was pretty happy with my first L.C. Smith. The seller told me it was all original. It was clean and tight and screws looked unturned. The price seemed more than reasonable and I almost broke my arm reaching for my wallet. I would have gave the seller excellent feedback if it was an internet rather than a gun show sale. Couple years later, while taking pictures and recording descriptions of all my guns for insurance purposes, I decided to measure the barrels. 27 1/2" long. So much for all original. Live and learn and caveat emptor.

cpa: i do not agree...

and for a buyer to expect that a mid quality 100 year old english made boxlock to be tight as new with no looseness when partially assembled is not realistic.

plus, the gun was judged to be in safe shooting condition by my expect gunsmith...

my goal is to sell safe shooters, at fair retail prices, which this gun was.

mikie: after reading your post above, it is clear to me that this character khan came on here with malicious intent...notice what he posted here is something he claims was written by my customer, that he lifted from another web site...sorry, but khan and everything about him is suspect...whatever happened to khan anyway? he sorta appeared out of no where and then went poof and disappeared.

and the fact is, my customer did not want to return the gun, but did want me to pay for the cost of his gunsmith to repair the gun to his satisfaction. but, the key point is this:
the gun was as i advertised it. it was in safe shooting condition, so i saw no grounds for return. buyers who expect mechanical perfection in 100 year old guns are not the people i wish to do business with.

guess you are not interested in hearing about guns i did accept back for refund?

"the gun was judged to be in safe shooting condition by my expect gunsmith..."

I 'spect the buyer had seen your gunsmith's previous work Ed





Carry on without me.

an keith: i have decided to take dudley's advise and not respond to those here like you, who seem to wish to infect the rest of us with your misery.

drew: thanks for posting the above pictures, copied from one of my old for sale listings...old ed's sleeving of these 12 ga parker gh barrels was not cosmetically prefect. but it did not cost $2000, either...whats interesting though, is that this gun is expertly regulated. it shoots both patterns from its 30" sleeved barrels to the same point of aim at 30 yards...and old ed was around 80 when he did this work about 8 years ago...

plus, last time i heard from owner, he cherishes this old parker and has won several skeet and sporting clays tournaments with it, which makes me happy.

and drew, if there was anything you would like to post here to help brian get back the rest of his money, i would think he would appreciate it...

If I had a nickel for every time you said that ed, I could buy several torch colored guns that were advertised as having colors which duplicate factory original. But I probably wouldn't be able to return them if I found they were loose or off the face.

But that's no way to treat the only friend you have here ed!

I don't usually get involved in threads like this but with this comment, I feel compelled.

Working down to a price is never an excuse for poor workmanship.

If the client can't afford the job then the job shouldn't be done, period.

Every job that a gunsmith does becomes part of their reputation, which is far more important (to me at least) than making a buck.

To then put one's name upon such work is unfathomable to me.

Ed, I'm truly sorry for you. Either you just don't know any better or you live in a state of delusion. Perhaps someday you'll look in the mirror, reality will hit and you will realize that achieving your sales goals at any cost is not worth what it does to you as a person.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads...tage_SxS_Gamegu

It is my opinion that you just made this up. You have many replies in the referenced thread and not one of them says the poor sucker wanted to rejoin the gun. He just wanted to return it: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post348207


And here are some quotes from that thread:







ed should you decide to continue this discussion I found some more posts and threads that support my opinion of your return policy and your application of it. Will be happy to continue this debate as long as you feel like it.

dewey: this is not about working down to a price. this is the level of sleeving work old ed did at the time. more cosmetically perfect work at a higher price was not an option. however, the cost of sleeving this old gh with heavily pitted damascus barrels, was within my projected budget for this restoration project. fact is, i rescued it from a gun butcher in maine, just before he was about to part it out. as it turned out, i sold this gun for little or no profit. but, i did learn a business lesson and made a competitive target shooter very happy.

mikie: i did not realize this was a debate. i thought we were exchanging opinions. so, shall we agree to disagree then, eh what?

but, how come you dont wana hear bout the other two guns i did take back for refund?

an just so you know, there are no other deals that i can remember, where the buyer had an issue that i did not resolve to our mutual satisfaction...

an mikie, if you have something that you could post here that would help brian get back the rest of his money, i think he would appreciate it. i know i would.

Using the term "restoration" is wholly inappropriate when referring to work like this.

Sadly, many misapply that word in the "gunsmithing" world.

WOW! What a post, when I started it I thought it would take at least thirty minutes to read, but since I have Ed Good on ignore, it only took half that time.
Dealer should do the right thing and pay the shipping cost, write if off to "good will", if not it will cost him many times over.
Best,
Craig

dewey: course you are correct regarding the use of the term restoration... but if you would have seen the state of the gun before old ed worked on it, you might agree that his work was more like a resurrection...including a major transplant.

craig: well, glad you got the purpose of this thread, which is to help brian get back the rest of his money...

sadly, some others who have posted here have other agendas, which is often the case on this forum...it is an indication of the lack of respect they have for the originator of this thread and others.

So you're telling us that Old Ed is like the Dr. Frankenstein of Gunsmithing? Wow!

Because I believe you make up stuff. Without some other corroboration I assume anything you say in your favor is probably fabricated, kind of like your champion clays shooter customer that is thrilled with that butchered up Parker Drew posted.

Edit: ed anytime you want to end this debate please feel free to stop posting on this thread.



Again, without corroboration, I assume anything you post in your favor is a falsehood.



And how come you didn't address this point

And if you start doing that maybe you won't wind up with threads like these being posted about the internet:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads...tage_SxS_Gamegu

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post348207

gee mikie: if you assume that everything i post here in my favor is a falsehood and that i make up stuff, and then i believe the same about you, then we have nothing more to tell each other but lies, right?

seems like my attempt at an exchange of opinions and information with you in this thread has been a waste of time from the beginning, like most of our discussions over the years...

so, whose baiting and trolling now?

oh mikie, just one more question: do you have anything that you could add to this thread that would help brian get back the rest of his money?

But my facts are corroborated. You did post in this thread: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post348207 In your posts you confirm that you did refuse to allow the guy to return the gun. You did confirm that it was loose in that thread.

You did post this:

So my facts are corroborated, most of them are statements you made here.

Please feel free to exit this debate any time it suits you. I will be happy to respond as long you want to keep it going.

Ed the lock up without a forearm is new to me but good to know for the future

Nothing back from Jay Barington at Shooters Investments of Raleigh, NC.

I think that he believes that if he ignores this it will go away forever.
I am not loosing any sleep over it. Just another lesson learned.

I have stopped bidding on his guns on GB Brian,it may take a while but eating a little shipping to do the right thing is going to cost him a lot more in the end.

Looks like Shooters Investments will be on my "do not bid list".
There is no way the buyer should be paying shipping charges, when the seller sends a gun with defects that are visible and not mentioned in description and photos.