I'm stealing a page from Field & Stream in an effort to bring some informative and interesting double gun discussions back to this forum. Keep it clean but pick your favorite of the two and briefly explain why. Think if you only had the choice of one gun below to bring to an upland, waterfowl or clays "gunfight"! Also please don't directly compare the guns in the pictures below to one another, they are just representatives of the brands and models in the fight. May the best gun win!

Gunfight Friday Round #1 - Modern Middleweights

Winchester Model 23 vs. Browning BSS

Winchester Model 23
The Winchester Model 23 was built by Olin-Kodensha in Japan and introduced in 1978. The list price in 1981 was $1,150.




Browning BSS
The production of the BSS side-by-side shotgun began in 1971 (12ga) and 1972 (20ga). Production ceased in 1987.

I liked the overall appearance and styling of the Browning a little better, but both good guns. The BSS sidelock was really classy.

That Browning finish is ok once you give it the rottenstone treatment, but why do they believe that shine improves the look of that pallet grade wood? Might have been unfair to picture the Winchester with great wood together with the plain Browning wood...Geo

I agree 100% George the bowling pin high gloss finish is pretty ugly especially on plain wood. Even though we aren't directly comparing the pictured guns to one another I changed the BSS picture to one with nicer wood. Anyone know what the MSRP on the BSS when it was introduced?

I believe the Winnie was offered with 32" barrels in some rendition.....that would be my choice.

I've owned two BSS with pistol grip stocks and beavertail forends. One 26" which I still use for ducks and geese and a 28' which I recently sold. They are beefy/blocky guns with poor balance and styling. In many ways they remind me of my Savage 311 I grew up with. My only reason to keep one is so I can pour any combination of steel shot out of it without worry.

I have not owned or shot a M23 but have handled one and conclude they come a close 2nd to the BSS.

The BSS pictured is the seldom seen Grade II. On the used market, asking prices seem to be nearly as high as the sidelocks! I think there were even fewer Grade II's made, which may explain that.

I bought a BSS Sporter 20ga--that's the straight grip gun, smaller forend than the PG but not a splinter--brand new in 1980 for $400. I think that was a sale price, maybe $40 off what was on the tag. The BSS was a Miroku-made gun, and IMO had some advantages over the Model 23--like a better single trigger. WAY more versions of the 23 to choose from, as well as 28's and .410's. BSS was 12 and 20 only. The 23 is a more handsome gun, and I think was also the first sxs with factory screw-in chokes (although a lot of them were fixed choke guns). The BSS was either 26" or 28" in 20ga; 30" also available in 12ga Standard (PG/BT) guns. The photo of the Grade II is the BSS Sporter version.

I would ordinarily choose the BSS, as I shoot a 30" one for ducks and clays. But, this one has a straight grip and a straight grip sucks for heavy loads, IMO. So, it would be the 23 because it is pistol gripped. And, like Ken, especially if I could get it with 32" barrels.

SRH

Well, I had a BSS with pistol grip stock. I still have the model 23. I just liked the 23 better all around.

Great thread!


I believe the Model 23 Heavy Duck max'd out at 30" barrels for the 12 gauge, 28 inchers for the 20.

I've owned both, 12's and 20's for the BSS (including a 20 ga. Sidelock), all gauges in both Classic and Golden Quail for the Win's.

I've kept 1 BSS 20, English, 28", Brily's.

I've had a Browning BSS and a Winchester Model 23 at the same time. Still have the Model 23. Does that tell you anything?

You picked incorrectly?

I like the one with the dual triggers, oh wait they're both single triggers... I'll pass on both.

I dislke both, even on all three of the judges score cards, a draw.

The way I see it according to the responses, some kind of hard to decipher,
We have;

4 votes for the Winchester.
4 votes for the Browning
5 votes for a draw.

I had both BSSs and 23s in 12 and 20 gauges and, a 23 in 28 gauge, and I thought they handled and shot more alike than different. The only one I have left is the BSS Sporter 20 gauge with 28" barrels. They were both more in the American style designed for heavier loads, than the English game gun style, even the small gauge 23s. I tend to shoot heavier loads so they were good for me. Never had a seconds trouble with either, but the BSS was my favorite.

Nope. There could be any number of reasons you still have it. You could have paid too much for it and now are upside down, or you can't find a buyer because they sell for twice as much as the same quality BSS, or it fits you and you shoot it better. Why don't you tell US why, Mike? This IS a gunfight.

SRH

Haven't owned either, but have had a few BSS first cousin Miroku SxS variants including my present Western Field. (with a NICE set of 30" chopper lump barrels with the chokes beginning their tapers 9 1/4" from the muzzle)

Just want say this is a fun discussion thread idea. Looking forward to the next edition!

Browning. Bobby

Can't vote because I never had a 23, but hunted upland in Vermont with a straight-gripped BSS 20/26" for one season. Found it kinda clubby and heavy for that work and traded it for a Fox Sterlingworth 16. Much better.

Among the cheaper Japanese doubles, I like the SKB/"Ithaca" 100. Ugly but it works and the ones I've shot were appropriate weights for their guages. Under-rated, IMO.

Bob, Stan,
Both guns were 20ga with 28" barrels.
Let me count the ways;
1. Browning was "clubby" feeling as mentioned above, Model 23 was a more fluid handling gun with more of it's weight between the hands
2. Model 23 was better looking
3. Used both on grouse and pheasant hunting. From a walking/ready position, Model 23 came to the shoulder/cheek smoother and scored more often.
4. Patterned both and the Model 23 had more evenly distributed patterns with both size 7.5's and 5's.
Outside of that, there wasn't any difference!
I've nothing against Brownings and own several. The BSS just didn't cut it in comparison to the Model 23.
Now if I were to have to choose which of my guns I'd keep to the end, A couple of Parker Reproductions would get the nod.

Everything you said about handling for the Winchesters was the reverse for me, except the appearance. Had a Parker Repro for a very short while. Liked the 23 and the BSS both better.

I choose the BSS over the 23. JMO, a stronger gun and to me, the handling is a draw. Not from my experience, but a few friends had M23s and they had sear issues (doubling) that needed multiple repairs. BTW, the idea of Gunfight Friday is really cool and will definitely spark some emotional banter!!

I've never shot a 23 and the only BSS I've had is the side-lock. I choose it...Geo

I looked at the two guns pictured, and it occurs to me that the argument is about like trying to decide which 1/2 ton pickup, a GMC, or a Chevy, is better.

I don't like either gun, by the way.


Best,
Ted

I would think the Winchester would hold it's value better.
I remember many years ago I had a wild hair and bought a 12 bore BSS, I had not gotten three miles down the road and realized I had made a mistake. To bulky and heavy.

Neither trip my triggers. Owned a BSS for a month then traded it off. Never had any interest in a 23. If it has two barrels I want two triggers. I prefer older shotguns from across the Atlantic.

Both of my buddies have model 23 20 gauges with the 25 or 26" barrels. Round knob for both. They only use them for preserve birds over their brits. They both like the single triggers (which I despise). I think they are solid but not lively guns and put together pretty well. I've shot both of the above guns. Not my cup of tea although I see the attraction.

PS. I owned a BSS 12 gauge for a brief while. Thought it would make a decent pheasant or duck gun. Too heavy to carry into the grouse woods.

Double PS. I had a Parker Repro 20 gauge with 28" full/mod barrels and two triggers. Damn thing weighed 6 lb 12 oz and was way too heavy for a 20 gauge. Would have made a nice dove gun but for the upland IMO no way.

My vote is a draw.

How much does a 20-ga. BSS with 28" bbls. weigh? And the 23?

WS, neither the BSS nor the 23 is a particularly light gun. I had a BSS Sporter (straight, semi-BT--lighter than the standard BSS w/PG/BT), 20ga, 26". Weighed 6/12. They're reliable guns, but the weight explains why, between BSS/SKB, I prefer the latter.

BSS, mainly because a vent rib on a sxs just looks wrong to me. But that's really just a matter of taste.

I've owned both a 20 ga. BSS Sporter (straight grip/small BT) and a 20 ga. Win. 23 Pigeon at the same time, both bought used in the late '80s, both 26". The BSS 20 frame is scaled down noticeably smaller than the BSS 12. The 23 frame has the same dimensions as the 12 except for the size of the fences. The BSS was almost half a pound lighter -- 6 lb./9 oz. vs. 7 lbs. for the 23 with it's vent rib and choke tubes. Similar quality fit and finish for both, but the BSS Sporter wood has an oil finish, the 23 is hard gloss. Though less engraving coverage on the standard grade BSS, I like its cut engraving better than the rolled engraving on the 23. I paid $250 less for the BSS in the same condition as the 23. I sold the 23 pretty quickly, still own and like the BSS.

I bought the BSS 12 ga. Sporter 28" new in 1985 for $550, about the same time my brother bought a 12 ga. 23 with 25.5" barrels for $950. Prices for both were about the same amount below listed retail. At the time the 23's choke tubes protruded half an inch beyond the barrels for 26" total length. The 23 was half a pound lighter at just over 7 lbs. -- only an ounce heavier than my 20 ga., and much nearer the light end of the 12 ga. spectrum than my BSS. I stopped using my BSS for birds after a couple seasons, but still like to shoot it for clays.

BTW, the standard M-23 had a coin finish frame and was called Pigeon Grade. The pictured 23 was a more expensive version introduced near the end of production, I think called the "Classic".

The 12 ga. M-23 I like is a European Pigeon Grade version I bought used in the early 90s. It's very unlike the U.S. models. Weight is 6 lbs./10 oz., with 70 mm. (2-3/4") chambers, fixed choke 28" barrels with solid swamped rib, splinter forend with ebony tip, slender straight stock with long tang and checkered rosewood buttplate. Engraving pattern also is different. I've shot this gun a lot over a lot of years with no problems. Here are a few pics.

Jay

In 1980, I wandered in to the gunsmithing area at Champlin Arms, in Enid, Oklahoma (I was stationed at a nearby base there), struck up a conversation with a now very well known London apprenticed gunmaker (often video'ed on a gunsmith supply company website). I asked about the project at hand, and he showed his work in progress BSS.

A client had wanted a new boxlock custom with two sets of barrels. This was being filled with parts of two new BSSs. I questioned the action and basis of the gun...and was told that there is no finer boxlock anywhere at any price.

That's enough for me...

Chas, that gun looks like it is NEW! I've seen new guns that didn't look as nice as that one.
Mine all end up with a beauty mark in 'em somewhere.
That said, I'm not going to run out and buy a 23, American or European spec.

Best,
Ted

Ted, the pics are pretty old and not real sharp, stock has plenty of light dings, and the finish where cheeked has worn thin and been re-freshed multiple times. The pad too shows lots of wear. Most of the guns I've carried as much as this one show a lot of bluing wear on the bottom tang, but this on has some kind of black finish (anodized?) on the trigger guard/tang and toplever that doesn't show it. Only thing I don't like about this 23 is the unusually thin comb -- I tend to get my cheek firmly into the stock and this one can bite me.

Knowing your strong preference for double triggers, I'd be disillusioned if you expressed any interest in a 23, or any other single trigger gun.

Jay

One significant difference between the 23 and the BSS: With the latter, there were only 2 models, Standard (PG/BT) and Sporter (str/SBT). That is, if you exclude the BSS Sidelock, which is a totally different gun. In contrast, there were a bunch of different versions of the 23, some lighter (as noted above) and some heavier (like the Heavy Duck). But the BSS in general was not a light gun. A 12ga with 30" barrels (available in the Standard configuration only I think, and not often seen) is the real heavyweight, but might make a nice sxs Sporting Clays gun, with choke tubes installed.

Never owned a 23 and can't recall for sure, but I think the trigger on those guns is inertia-operated. The BSS has a mechanical trigger, and for a ST on a gun that's not very expensive, it's a pretty good one. A lot of people think the 23 trigger leaves a good bit to be desired.

I've owned them all, BSS, 23, SKB, straight and pistol grips. The Japanese doubles are great using guns. You just have to find one you like. I have kept a BSS 20 with 28 inch barrels and Briley chokes I had stocked for a sporting clays gun, a Miroku pre BSS, pre Daly, double trigger 20 weighing in at an even 6 lbs with 28 inch barrels, and my never to be sold Grouser, an SKB model 100 20 ga. weighing 5 lbs 12 oz. (a niche gun). The SKB is a great gun for an old man--in my late 30's, I could hunt and sometimes hit Grouse with a Ruger Red Label. Those days and reflexes are gone! I have loved the light guns since 60. Today's best value? Either the BSS Sidelock or a Chas. Daly/Western Field Miroku with double triggers, for a lightweight carrying gun, the SKB 100--don't care much for the rest of the SKBs, just not as robust as the Miroku and Winchester guns.

Larry, the 23 trigger is mechanical too, not inertia.

You've often commented that 23 triggers have a lot of creep. I don't doubt you've found some that do, but mine and my brother's don't have unusual slack, and the triggers on our guns have been trouble-free for 25 years.

I think the 23 triggers are an adaptation of the Win. 101 trigger design. I know guys who've shot the original 101s gunning for springer field trials for 30+ years with no trigger issues. But maybe they'll have trouble this spring.

Jay

Thanks for the correction on the mechanical/inertia thing, Charlie.

I expect "unusual slack" is a personal thing, and may be the result of sxs shooters who are more used to DT guns vs ST. Just playing with the guns I have readily at hand, I find that the DT guns have little or no slack. The ST example I have is an SKB, which I think has a pretty good trigger. But it has more slack than any of my DT guns. Got comments about 23 triggers when I was doing an article on the gun years ago. I recall talking to a shop that did quite a bit of work on 23's. They said they could give the trigger a lighter pull but couldn't do anything with the slack. I don't recall hearing about any issues with 23 triggers other than the slack/creep, as far as function goes.

Hmm. A M23 in .410. I own one. Lovely gun. I hate .410s. That would throw my vote to the Browning. Unless I could have the M23 in a larger gauge.

You could likely get a dealer who has a 23 in a bigger gauge to trade with you.

Best,
Ted

Ted - Yeah, could, but it was my father's. I get it out once every year or two - people think it's cuter than all get out. As to a 20, I think I've got five 20s around here somewhere. But thanks for trying to find me a way out.

I have not owned a Model 23 yet however I did get to borrow one over a weekend. I however do own a BSS 12ga 28" M/F silver non selective trigger. I made this purchase to participate in the SxS events.
+1 Browning

Had both. The BSS was the 12ga. non-selective trigger. I used it on ducks for a couple of years. Absolutely reliable but a complete club. The 23 was a limited production model with flush chokes and the action was filed like a Mod.21. The dynamics were better than the BSS but not good. The 23 had a recurring trigger problem but it's so long ago I don't remember what it was. In any case they both went down the road and I don't miss either. If I had to vote for one it would be the BSS. The 23 was better finished but was unreliable.