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Posted By: L. Brown Baltimore Arms - 02/21/15 11:14 PM
Saw and handled one at a local gun show. 12ga, dealer said it was a C Grade, which was the highest. Some nice game scene engraving, generally quite good condition other than missing an ebony insert in the grip. The hole in the rib extension was neither round like a Greener, nor square like a Scott, nor rectangular like a Fox, Elsie, or NID. Rather, the L and bottom sides were straight, the ends of which were linked by a gentle curve. Different concept.

Large lump fit thrugh the floor plate of the receiver. Nice bores. Barrels gave a rather pronounced "thud" when I tried to ring them. Blued, but I wonder whether they might have been Damascus in disguise. Light gun, shootable dimensions. Might have taken a shot had I not been concerned about the barrels. $950 seemed fairly reasonable.

Anyone know anything about these? First one I've ever handled. I seem to recall an article or two in DGJ, thought I might have saved and filed them, but I did not.
Posted By: Marks_21 Re: Baltimore Arms - 02/22/15 12:53 AM
Neat guns. There was a Trap grade and a D grade added to the line up, both higher than the C, but a c is certainly a nice gun. I like them.
Posted By: Researcher Re: Baltimore Arms - 02/22/15 04:18 PM
Baltimore Arms Co. -- January 1900 to October 1904 -- manufactured a gun designed primarily by Frank A. Hollenbeck, covered by his patent #643,601 granted Feb. 13, 1900.

There are three different variations of Baltimore Arms Company doubles, the 1900 Model which was available only in 12-gauge and grades A with twist barrels, B with Damascus barrels, and C with some engraving and a choice of Damascus or steel barrels. Half-pistol grips were standard and the Grade C had the option of straight.

For the 1902 Model they added 16-gauges to the line, repositioned the sear spring and strengthened the protrusions on the toes of the hammers engaged by the cocking slide on the barrel lug. The A-Grade (list price $33) got the option of steel barrels, the B-Grade (list price of $46.50) got some line engraving and a capped full pistol grip, and the C-grade got more game scene and less scroll engraving ("Either half pistol or straight grip.





The half pistol grip has our original finish of ebony inletted in the grip, giving a beautiful finish.") --



Two higher grades the Trap Gun (list price $125) with straight grip, Fluid Steel Barrels ("These barrels are of extra quality and used only on this grade gun.") and engraving of Pigeons and a live Pigeon shooting scene; --



and the Grade D (list price $175) had finest Damascus barrels or Monumental steel barrels (no doubt named for Monumental shooting park in Baltimore), elaborate checkering and dogs on point in the engraving and a partridge.

The 1904 Model got rebates in the frame on each side of the top and bottom tangs and the head of the stock is inlet into these rebates to prevent splitting.



The grades stayed the same but the Grade B got the options of steel barrels and the choice of a straight or capped pistol grip.



Serial numbers I've observed seem to run from about 1000 to a bit over 7,000. 1904 Models seem to begin in the low 5000 range.

Serial numbers under 1000 were those used by the Ansley H. Fox designed gun manufactured by the Fox Gun Co., Balto., Md., U.S.A. Ansley left in early 1900 to become a professional shooter for Winchester and his partners regrouped, incorporated under the laws of West Virginia, and began production of the Hollenbeck designed gun. They moved into a new factory building in 1901, a block or so away from the old Fox premises.

My two-part article on Baltimore Arms Company was in The Double Gun Journal, Volume Ten, Issues 1 & 3. I also had an article "The Fox Gun Company of Baltimore City and Baltimore Arms Company" in The Gun Report, Volume 42, Number 9, February 1997.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Baltimore Arms - 02/23/15 03:16 PM
Hard to see the engraving in the photos of the top gun, but that one looks like the gun I saw. The ebony inlet in the grip was missing. Otherwise, the gun was in pretty good shape.
Posted By: Parker10guage Re: Baltimore Arms - 02/24/15 11:20 PM
I am lucky enough to have that issue of DGJ detailing the Baltimore Arms Co. Just from the photographs, I think these are fine guns and in one of my earlier posts I believe you could state that they are rare guns. I will continue to look for one in 12 ga. Most of my old gun store haunts are not even aware of these fine guns
Posted By: Buzz Re: Baltimore Arms - 02/25/15 12:48 AM
Odd placement of the posterior pin for a boxlock. One gun looks like it is a pin, the others look like screws. Superiorly placed too. Intercepting safety sears for that posterior pin? If so, why only one main pin for a boxlock? In other words, where is the pin for the sear arm? Pretty guns.
Posted By: Parker10guage Re: Baltimore Arms - 02/25/15 01:41 AM
It is truly a shame that when you hold, shoot, collect or just admire vintage American made shotguns you sometime realize they are gone. Parker, Baker, Ithica, Fox, Baltimore Arms, Winchester, Remington, H&R, LC Smith, etc, I could go on and on about fine made American guns. I will certainly give credit to Connecticut Shotgun Mfg. but it would be fantastic to see quality utilitarian doubles and singles being made in the USA. What is that saying , "Wake Up America:".
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Baltimore Arms - 02/25/15 12:27 PM
Originally Posted By: buzz
Odd placement of the posterior pin for a boxlock. One gun looks like it is a pin, the others look like screws. Superiorly placed too. Intercepting safety sears for that posterior pin? If so, why only one main pin for a boxlock? In other words, where is the pin for the sear arm? Pretty guns.


I don't know the mechanics of a Baltimore Arms gun. But could that pin indicate overhanging sears rather than intercepting sears? I know there's often that question on German guns.
Posted By: topgun Re: Baltimore Arms - 02/25/15 02:20 PM
All examples that I have seen have a "posterior" screw, and are not pinned; and although I have not personally disassembled a Baltimore gun, I'm almost sure Larry is correct in that this screw secures an overhanging sear in a very similar fashion as the "posterior" pin on the Syracuse Arms gun that Frank Hollenbeck also designed. From my personal observations, any Baltimore gun above Grade B is a hard to find item. I have a Grade C "project" I'll finish someday; a 12-bore. The gun is missing the butt plate, but the stock is un-cut with excellent figure, checkering, and the unique ebony grip cap. The gun frame still has lots of original case color, sharp engraving, and screw slots are untouched and perfect. This gun obviously saw very little use; but some knucklehead cut its beautiful Damascus barrels to 18". I've obtained a great set of 32" fluid steel barrels thru the generosity of Daryl Halquist, as well an excellent set of 28" Twist barrels. The 32" barrels will fit the frame almost perfectly, and the gun will function if I use an extra A Grade forend I have; but until this barrel set is properly fitted, the original C Grade forend is not compatible with the 32" barrels in place. This will be a beautiful gun when properly restored. And based on my limited knowledge of the Baltimore gun, barrel steel names were not marked on barrels tubes themselves (at least on Grades A, B, and C); but one can determine the barrel steel type used (Twist, Damascus, or fluid steel) by inspecting barrel flats. If the barrel tubes are Twist, one will find a "T" stamp thereon, with Damascus barrels a "D" stamp; and fluid steel barrel flats will feature an "S" ID stamp.
Posted By: Researcher Re: Baltimore Arms - 02/25/15 04:28 PM
Here is the cut-away drawing from the 1900 Baltimore Arms Co. catalogue showing the hanging sear --



By the 1902 Model the sear spring had been repositioned, but all I have of a later catalogue is a photocopy and it just doesn't show up well.

The earliest Baltimore Arms Co. guns had a plain checkered butt plate, as used by the predecessor Fox Gun Co., Balto., MD., U.S.A. By the 1902 Model they were using this butt plate --



I have couple of NOS butt plates that an old Baltimore gunsmith gave me along with some parts when I did a display of the guns at a Maryland Arms Collectors Association show. They are too narrow for any of my 12-gauge guns, but would work on 16-gauges.
Posted By: 2-piper Re: Baltimore Arms - 02/25/15 06:12 PM
The general design of that Sear appears to be very much a copy of the earlier Dan Lefever design used on guns with the plate mounted sears.
Posted By: Buzz Re: Baltimore Arms - 02/25/15 06:33 PM
Researcher, 2-piper, Larry; You guys are awesome......tons of knowledge. Thanks for the good info re the overhanging sear.
Posted By: John E Re: Baltimore Arms - 03/10/15 11:35 PM
Sorry for the late reply.

I have my early model Baltimore Arms disassembled for some repair and cleaning. I try to lay out the parts and take pics when I have projects apart. Here are some views of my A grade #1517.

The V spring at center is the top lever spring. The grooved pin w/coil spring just below the Frame is the top lever trip.




This pic shows the Cocking Arms on the Hammers and also the hanging sears, sear springs and sear pivot pin/screws.



The main springs, sitting on top in the pics, actually set below the hammers with the hooked end of one leg captured by the false bottom plate.




The false bottom plate slides into the frame from the rear and is retained by the demple at front center. Once the trigger plate is attached the false plate can not move. The trip coil spring sets over a small tab in the plate between the mainsprings.



Hope this has helped you understand the inner workings a bit better.

John
Posted By: mike campbell Re: Baltimore Arms - 03/11/15 12:29 AM
Originally Posted By: Researcher
Baltimore Arms Co. -- January 1900 to October 1904 -- manufactured a gun designed primarily by Frank A. Hollenbeck, covered by his patent #643,601 granted Feb. 13, 1900.

There are three different variations of Baltimore Arms Company doubles, the 1900 Model which was available only in 12-gauge and grades A with twist barrels, B with Damascus barrels, and C with some engraving and a choice of Damascus or steel barrels. Half-pistol grips were standard and the Grade C had the option of straight.

For the 1902 Model they added 16-gauges to the line, repositioned the sear spring and strengthened the protrusions on the toes of the hammers engaged by the cocking slide on the barrel lug. The A-Grade (list price $33) got the option of steel barrels, the B-Grade (list price of $46.50) got some line engraving and a capped full pistol grip, and the C-grade got more game scene and less scroll engraving ("Either half pistol or straight grip.






Is that a restock? The shadow lines and checkering look modern.
Posted By: Researcher Re: Baltimore Arms - 03/11/15 01:29 AM
The stock on that C-Grade in the 32xx serial number range has a repaired crack and has been refinished. But, the C-Grade, Trap Gun and D-Grade all have the shodow line stock cheeks. Here is a much higher original condition C-Grade in the 22xx serial number range --





To date I only know of two Baltimore Arms Co. Trap Guns and they are consecutive serial numbers 1902 Models. The one pictured in McIntosh's Fox book pages 24 and 34 has a rather poor restock. Mine is also restocked, but at least the late Bill Harvey had most of the original to work from, and I still have the original.
Posted By: topgun Re: Baltimore Arms - 03/11/15 01:36 AM
That is not a re-stock, but rather the standard layered cheek treatment and checkering pattern given the Grade C Baltimore gun. The stock work and checkering work done to/on highest grade Baltimore Arms guns was superb; and especially so of the Grade D gun. As to the mechanical design of the gun itself, not being a great student of the Lefever gun I can't speak to how the Baltimore design might compare to a Dan Lefever design; but in my opinion, the Baltimore gun has more in common with Hollenbeck's earlier Syracuse gun design (those SAC models with George Horne's patented sliding cocking plate) that any other period gun I've seen. Both gun have the sears and hammer/cocking rod units mounted on pins in virtually the same locations on the frame, both have hammers powered by two large "V" springs held in place by a false bottom plate; and the cocking rods are controlled by a spring loaded sliding pin located in the barrel lug that activates/deactivates the moveable cocking plate whenever the fore iron is attached or removed from the gun as the case may be (1903 and later SAC guns have the sliding cocking plate, but for all I know, Horne got his idea for the SAC gun from Hollenbeck's Baltimore gun introduced in 1900). The biggest differences I see between these two designs is that the Baltimore features a standard 3/8" wide barrel lug, as opposed to SAC's 5/8" wide lug; and the top bolt bite. I've owned and/or handled, loved and studied every known grade and gauge of the SAC gun while I've owned only one example of the much rarer Baltimore gun (the Grade C referenced earlier). The Grade C Baltimore I own, in spite of it's chopped barrels, is a beautifully made and fitted gun; and certainly worthy of restoration (but I would surely love to own a Grade D Baltimore!).
Posted By: mike campbell Re: Baltimore Arms - 03/11/15 02:21 AM
That's interesting. I'd only ever seen the shadow lines on 2-piece rifles, especially custom singleshots, when I stocked an up-custom Ithaca NID with them in the 1990's.

As time passed I came to see it as a stylistic mistake because they looked too modern.... now I learn they were factory original a century ago.
Posted By: topgun Re: Baltimore Arms - 03/11/15 03:14 AM
You'll find very similar shadow-line treatment given to the cheeks of later vintage B, C, and D Grade Syracuse Arms Company stocks also; perhaps the stock makers for Syracuse and Baltimore Arms Companies trained under the same master? Who knows, but I'm constantly amazed at the artistry, skill, and creative carvings, checkering, and inlay work and designs found on America's best shotguns.
Posted By: Carl Baird Re: Baltimore Arms - 03/16/24 01:40 AM
The shame of all this talk of beautiful workmanship in old American doubles is that I fear it's going away. I have a small collection of Hollenbeck, Syracuse, Three Barrel and one Baltimore that I cherish. My children don't care and I've gone to great lengths to explain to them what exceptional talent and drive it took to make these beauties. They all say great dad, and go about their own lives, never asking about them again.
I have a friend who grew up in Hungary and took an apprenticeship as a tool/gunsmith guy at a very young age. He said one day he was handed a bunch of steel and given the chance to make his own tools...screw drivers, chisel's, knives, etc. Then he was taught the art of making "V" springs. He said, you have to know your colors perfectly when you heat the steel...to much of a color and it won't work, too little of a color it won't work. He said, if you do it right, the true test is to take the "V" spring, clamp it closed and leave it alone over night. If it functions properly in the morning, it's a good spring.That's artistry and it's going away.
Before I leave, I hope underfunded Frank Hollenbeck gets the recognition he deserves. He made some mighty fine doubles.
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