I’m the sort who when catches a spark of interest in something, usually digs into it rather deeply until some other interest comes along. This winter my current affair has become SxS shotguns. Specifically, European made. I’ve learned a lot these last few months that have allowed me to narrow my focus on what I’m most drawn to. At present, scaled 16 ga., sidelock, English style straight stock doubles have my heart. I discovered the well-made, typically undervalued Czech BRNO ZP models to be a great working gun, with all the technical attributes of “Best Gun” doubles such as chopper-lump bbls, scaled side lock actions that incorporate disc set strikers, gas escape valves, coil main springs, and hand fitted components with tight tolerances. Balance, point and swing are wonderful for my fit. Yet, they leave something to be desired in terms of eye appeal. I want something with more artistry as well as build quality, but I don’t want to break the bank to get it.

I have always heard how Spanish doubles can satisfy all the technical and artisanal goals and be had at very reasonable prices relative to some other makers producing equivalent quality guns. The catch here of course is “equivalent quality”. Apparently the standards in Spain through the years have been all over the board depending on a given maker. That’s not unique to Spain, but it poses the challenge of requiring one to pay attention to the details of where and when a Spanish gun came from in trying to evaluate its market value.

So, all this to ask, what’s the deal with Union Armera (UA) vs Grulla Armas? I keep seeing guns that were made by UA and marketed as Grulla. Yes I understand that UA was a consortium of 5 makers and started before WWII, and that they did a diverse business of building all grades of guns. They transitioned from the company name of UA to the company name of Grulla Armas sometime in the 80s. So I guess when people say a UA is a Grulla that is why. Yet, Grulla Armas has undergone a significant change in operations toward the type and quality of guns they build compared to those they built in their first decade of operation under that name, and certainly compared to the guns built overall by UA. Grulla Armas of today is focused on “Best Gun” builds only. The initial workmanship and thus cost of this grade gun is far more than the average UA ever was. Thus my ponderings have brought me to conclude how the heck can I tell if any UA is comparable to the Grulla? Engravings aside, where does one draw a line and say this UA or older Grulla is, or, is not built to the standards of today’s Best Gun Grulla? I still have a lot to learn………any insight you good folks would send my way would be well appreciated.

Permit me to pose some points to ponder.

Regarding your comment, “Apparently the standards in Spain through the years have been all over the board depending on a given maker.”, that has the cart before the horse. Up until into the 1980s just about all the Spanish gun makers would make a gun to every price point at which there was a market. Across the board price points produces all over the board guns, from low price point working men’s guns to highly embellished guns priced at a level only the landed gentry could afford.

Concerning UA and Grulla, the sign of the crane (a grulla) was the trademark of UA and people referred to a UA gun as ‘Grulla’. So UA changed the name of the company to Grulla. This was during the 1980s, when the Spanish gun makers were under severe economic pressure, with Victor Sarasqueta actually failing. The surviving shotgun makers did what they usually did during hard times; they dropped the bottom price point guns and raised the prices on the models they continued to make. The name change from UA to Grulla happened at the same time and some folks see a connection between the name change and the dropping of low end guns at Grulla. Maybe so, but the name change happened overnight but the reduction in models offered by (the newly renamed Grulla) happened slowly over the next decade.

This sentence, ‘Grulla Armas of today is focused on “Best Gun” builds only.’ Is incorrect. Grulla still builds guns across a range of price points. I’d also suggest abandoning the term “best gun.” This is a marketing term with no generally, much less universally, accepted quantifiable definition.

All of the makers build a well-made, reliable, and durable gun at the base price point. More money won’t get you a more reliable or durable gun. What more money (i.e. higher price points) will get you is more decoration. Initially that may just be removal of tool marks from internal parts, or an engine turned water table. More money means more and better engraving, a wider choice in the kind of ribs (or locks) available, one or more spare barrels, H&H assisted openers, and/or a fitted case. And so on until we hit the top price point.

Not too long ago a gentleman shared a very high price point Pedro Gorosabel here:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=390179&page=1

100% engraving coverage, engraving is medium to deep relief, has an assisted opener, and is just exquisite. That’s what more money buys :-)

Well he has spoken! No such thing as Best guns. I'm sure this will be news to James Purdey, H&H etc. The only difference between a Purdey and shall we say "other guns" is just engraving, different ribs, removal of tool marks etc. And after all the price you pay for a Purdey won't get you a more reliable or durable gun.

Guess I'll just stick to those lower price point guns. Why waste all that money!

I think the point was the use of the term "best".

What is the definition of "best"? The one usually stated is that a "best" gun is one combining the best materials and manufacturing quality that a maker can muster. Well, maker A doing well below his "best" can outbuild by far maker B doing his utmost, so which gun would be "best", the one made by A or by B?

There is a more serious and quantifiable aspect. Bruce Owen, former Purdey production manager, wrote in Shooting Sportsman that since the advent of CNC machines they were forced to use modern and superior steel grades, not the old carbon steel, for actions. The old steels cannot stand the forces applied by thenew machines, he wrote.

SO the new generation Purdeys with this improved steel would be described as "bester" since the pre CNC models were "best"?

See the difficulties with this "best" label now?

I've always enjoyed Hallowell's definition of a "best gun":

"Best Gun - A pretentious English term for a gun that must have several specific details. To qualify for the title, it must have a Sidelock action with Intercepting Sears, have Chopper Lump Barrels, be Stocked to the Fences and have its lumps concealed by its floorplate. While almost any respectable gunmaker can accomplish these requirements, the implication, of course, is that it is also built to the highest standard of quality. "

Morris L. Hallowell IV, "Illustrated Firearms Dictionary"
http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm

Thanks to all for your replies. Yes I understand that the grulla was the symbol used by UA, and consequently, UA guns were therefore termed "Grulla" in their day. I think this might add to some of the confusion I'm trying to clear out of my pea brain. As I said, I have much to learn yet, and expect that my limited pocket book, and exposure to all degrees of quality guns will hamper me much. Never the less, is there no difference than in how good were the materials used, and how well built are the UA guns vs the contemporary Grulla offerings? Taken the art work out of the equation that is.

I have an older UA 20 gauge made in the 1940s and it is a very well made gun. I will avoid the "best" gun issue, but it is a bespoke sidelock finished with every bell and whistle that you could want other than a self-opener (which I personally don't view as a shortcoming) - chopperlump barrels (no top rib, too), 100% engraving coverage, articulated trigger, bushed strikers, gold plated lockparts, hidden third bite, jeweled finish, ejectors, cocking indicators, drop points, classy piece of walnut with first-rate inletting, stocked to the fences, fitted case. Interestingly, the locks bear an AYA stamp. It would cost 5-6x what I paid for it to have it made in Spain today.

The UA guns can be better deals because of the very question you raised.

If by ‘well built’ you mean ‘reliable and durable’ the answer is there is no difference between guns built by the company named UA or Grulla. Neither UA nor Grulla made the parts they used to assemble shotguns. Like almost all other makers at almost all other times, UA/Grulla bought/buys the parts and assemblies needed to assemble they shotguns that will have their name upon them. If there are differences in the materials used to make the parts AU used, from the materials used to make the parts Grulla uses, it’s because time has passed and the network of suppliers UA/Grulla buys from has changed the materials they use to make their wares.

Concerning whether the people of UA or Grulla did a better job of assembling those parts into shotguns, remember that while the company name changed the people did not.

I’m getting the sense that you are new to Spanish shotguns, and are looking to make a first purchase. If that’s the case my best advice, offered FWIW, is:

1) Ignore the names on the guns and just look at the gun – and then buy the gun that best meets your needs, regardless of who made it. You’ll pay less for the same gun.
2) Buy a used gun rather than a new gun, especially a gun made roughly during the period 1945 to 1975. That was the period that skilled hand labor was at its cheapest, and more of that skilled hand labor went into guns then than now does into guns at any similar price point. You’ll get more gun for your money.

This is spot on to the subject of the network of parts suppliers all the gun makers depend on for the parts they need to make guns.

The original AyA (not the AyA of that name today) had its start as a supplier of parts to the gun makers, and initially made no shotguns itself. AyA specialized in complete locks, and later in barrels. Even after that earlier AyA began making guns under its own name it continued to make and sell parts for a major part of its revenue stream.

As I write this history is attempting to come full circle. Current day AyA, concerned with the status of the parts suppliers it relies upon for the parts it needs to make shotguns, has started to make its own barrels.

Here are a couple of examples of locks purchased from AyA and used by other gun makers.

Lucio Loyola gun made for Trust Eibarres(1946)


Vuida e Hijos de Francisco Arizaga (1958)

And a couple of AyA made barrels on AyA guns.

AyA Model 53 (1973)




AyA Model 117 (1970)

Grulla has gone the way of other makers in Spain. They have dropped some of the lower priced guns and have concentrated on building fewer guns at a larger starting price. Garbi did this many years ago, now Arrieta has followed.

A few years ago, the barrel maker was going to close down, AYA purchase them. They supply the barrels to the Spanish makers, just like before

John Boyd
Quality Arms

Kylie,
I know you are very knowledgable on the subject of Spanish doubles.
Any idea where I can find an upper tier Martin Ugarteburu? I have a nice condition model 108 ( with an assisted opener and swamped rib). I am suitably impressed with the quality that I would like to add one of his high grade guns to my stable. Any leads would be appreciated.
Best regards,
JBP

Hi John,

I'd heard that one of the two barrel makers went out of businesss, and sold their tooling to AyA. But this is Spain - who knows?

PM send.

I had a muzzleloader that was built in Spain by <AMR> that was the stamp on the barrels. It was a beautiful shotgun feather light and tough as nails.

AMR: Originally A. Marcos Relea, later Anchu S.L. Avancargas. I've seen only one AMR, a nicely done boxlock.

Yes Sir!!! Didn't know about the Anchu S.L. Avancargas thank you for that information.

And you Sir, need to write a book. And if you already have you need to tell me where I can buy it.

I know it is an internet photo and all, but, that first lock pictured up there goes a loooong way toward explaining how Spanish makers got a reputation for not being exactly great quality.
While I get the price point thing, if that is the quality you can produce for the price you are getting, it might be time to find work helping your brother-in-law with his garbage truck route.
I say this as a happy Spanish boxlock owner, an Uggy Falcon. But, if I opened it up and saw something like that, I'd be moving it along.

Best,
Ted

I don't think I see what you are referring to Ted. The top lock looks caked in old grease to me. What do you see that's inferior about that lock? I see it has no intercepting sear, but it's more complex than say an LC Smith lock.

Well, the missing sear, and the egg shaped holes. The tumbler also appears to have a pad, that can be replaced as it wears, but, it doesn't look to be fitted all that well.

Best,
Ted

Ted,

Sorry and no offense, but you seem to have stepped in it on this one.

Your egg shaped holes and poorly fitted pad on the tumbler don’t exist; they are artifacts of old, very dirty, grease (kudos to Buzz, who called recognized the grease). And the lock isn’t missing a sear. Not all guns have or need secondary sears; this lock is from a live pigeon gun in which secondary sears can be a liability.

In terms of the “price point thing”, and “quality you can produce for the price you are getting”, the gun to which that lock belongs was proofed in 1946, used to shoot competitive live pigeon for almost forty years, and still functions quite reliably. It’s a hoot to shoot trap and wobble doubles with it. It originally cost less than $100, equivalent to a little less than $1000 in 2015 USD. How many other values as good as that have you seen recently?

Kyrie,
Funny, I could have sworn I started out with the caveat of it being an internet photo!

But, no offense taken. I would like to see a decent photo of it, in a clean state. But, even if the gunge on it is grease, and not the fault of the builder, but, whoever maintained it, I'd still probably pass, if the seller took the time to show me that, for fear of whatever that grease did to the wood. But, you are right, that wouldn't be the lockmakers fault.

If we were both around in 1946, and each had $100, you could have bought that gun, and I could have bought a 29" barreled 28 gauge Darne R10, with two sets of barrels-in a case.
I think I would have done a bit better, investment wise, but, I suppose we'd both be too old to enjoy the guns now, anyway.

Fun to think about it.

Thanks for the insight.

Best,
Ted

"used to shoot competitive live pigeon for almost forty years, and still functions quite reliably."

That's some demanding sport on equipment and competitor alike and it would be an interesting read to see the different types of Spanish shotguns used by the competitors.

There are just a huge number of live pigeon matches on YouTube. Here are a couple as examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFrQMgPwqKs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP4MKe-OD3E

Who used what kind of gun was idiosyncratic. People used what they had, what they could afford, or if very well off a gun made to whatever specifications they thought best embodied a competition gun.

Just about every maker who was around during the height of the pigeon shoots had a model with the features they thought made an idea competition/pigeon gun. The AyA model 56 is an example of a purpose designed competition gun. My own favorite (favorite enough that I bought one) is the Model 229 made by Hijos (Luis y Lazaro) de Juan Jose Arrizabalaga.











When I bought the 229 I actually had a choice of that gun or a similar AyA 56 (cased, two barrel set, etc). Same price, either gun. I picked the 229 because it had better engraving :-)

All Spanish shotguns fall somewhere on a continuum that runs from light game gun (think AyA model No.1, 12 gauge with 2 inch chambers at about 6 pounds total weight), through a medium game gun (think AyA model 53), to a heavy competition gun (AyA 56, Arrizbalaga model 229, etc.). The difference between guns at the extreme and mid point on this continuum are hard to see until example guns can be seen side by side. Here are, side by side, a heavy competition gun (Arrizbalaga model 229) and a mediu game gun (AyA model 53):



Interesting, no?

I have Terry Wieland excellent book on the Spanish shotgun but I can't seem to find very many other books concerning the Spanish built shotgun. He sort of hit on all the major players but left a huge gap with the smaller makers and the suppliers of locks and other components. An interesting story but why not more of it as the Spanish are key players in this game?

PM sent; start here:

http://personales.jet.es/rafa/b_punzones.html

Kyrie, thanks for the side by side pics of the 2 different weight guns. I found that most informative.

Mergus

You are very welcome.

As an aside, be aware that not all Luis Arrizabalaga (maker mark JAM) model 229 shotguns were built as pigeon guns. About a year ago I came across a JAM 229 on Guns International that had been built as a light game gun.

This kind of thing can drive people accustomed to the American business model of gun making to distraction. Here in the USA we walk into a gun shop, say "I want a some maker model something-or-other", and that's the end of the conversation.

But when dealing with a Spanish artisanal shotgun maker and saying I want a model something-or-other shotgun is where the conversation begins.

Here is an example of what I speak of.

One of the fellows on my forum is in the process of having his dream shotgun made in Spain, and he and I chat as each milestone in that process passes. When he chose the model of gun he wanted and sent a deposit the maker immediately came back and remarked the buyer hadn't specified whether he wanted that model made on a light, medium, or heavy action. That's right; the maker needed to know whether the buyer wanted his something-or-other made as a light game gun, a medium game gun, or a heavy competition gun and couldn't start making the gun until the customer told him what kind of a gun he wanted.

A friend of mine owned a wonderful 28 gauge Arietta for a short time. He bought it used and I believe it was originally built for Argentina. 30" barrels, double triggers, slim semi-beavertail forend and relaxed round knob grip. It weighed 7 lb even and was absolutely wonderful for targets and doves. The frame was significantly wider than one of their 20 gauge game guns that went 6 lb. I was cash poor when he traded it away. I know where it is and would love to own it. Maybe someday.
Regards,
Jeff

On that same thread, here is an interesting gun that just sold on Gun Broker:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=471776354

VS model 4, in 20 gauge. 20 gauge barrels usually weigh about 1250 grams, give or take 100 - 200 grams depending on barrel length and type.

The barrel weight of the above gun is 1730 grams. Something is up with that gun.

Here is another VS model 4, for reference:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=468965385

Another beautiful sidelock made by an obscure Spanish house. A Beristain Sidelock extractor 12 double;

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=473311576

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=473994954


And a perfect weight for a 12 gauge game gun. Holy smokes just looking through Gunbroker and you can go on and on with these obscure Spanish gems!!

You, sir, have a good eye.

There were (at least) seven people associated with the name Beristain involved in the gun trade during the period early 1700s - late 1900s and I have yet to unravel what connections may have existed between them. By the early 1900s we seem to be down to just two Beristains; "Beristain y Cia" and "Beristain, SA".

The two guns linked above are Beristain, SA.

Beristain, SA appears to have been only a retailer and not a gun maker. The gun in GB auction # 473311576 was made by Industrias Ilja (maker mark LI) and has slightly more hours of skilled hand labor in its production than the other gun. The other gun, GB auction # 473994954, was made by Armas Parkemy (maker mark A. P. M.). The LI is an extractor gun; the APM an ejector gun.

To put these guns into the perspective of today’s market, both have more skilled hand labor in them than does a current production AyA No. 2, and if produced today would sell at a higher price point Than a No. 2.

At a thousand dollars, each of these guns is a good value.

"To put these guns into the perspective of today’s market, both have more skilled hand labor in them than does a current production AyA No. 2, and if produced today would sell at a higher price point Than a No. 2."

Really???? Maybe in fantasyland!

"Beristain, SA appears to have been only a retailer and not a gun maker. The gun in GB auction # 473311576 was made by Industrias Ilja (maker mark LI) and has slightly more hours of skilled hand labor in its production than the other gun. The other gun, GB auction # 473994954, was made by Armas Parkemy (maker mark A. P. M.). The LI is an extractor gun; the APM an ejector gun."

Interesting stuff Kyrie gives us more!!!

A sweet handling, hand built sidelock for $1,000.00. Nothing being offered on the market today can compete with that.

they are good values, yes.... but just because they have more hand labor in them, doesn't mean they are higher quality. Sorry but they dont come close to an AYA #2

I think, at the moment, there are four top end, or near top end, guns out there at almost reasonable prices:

Laurona:

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/13124950/

Armas Ego:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/ARMAS-E...un_id=100523880

Arrieta. Back in the day this gun was made it was the top price point gun Arrieta offered. The reason we don't see that engraving pattern any more is it became so expensive to do no one could afford to have a gun made with it. I suspect the skills needed to execute that pattern are now extinct.

http://www.gunsinternational.com/ARRIETA-BEST-QUALITY-SXS-12-GAUGE.cfm?gun_id=100532739

This is a near top end Ugartechea (model 116):

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=473273169

The only reason I haven't bought that gun is I already have a model 16 in 12 gauge.

I suspected this would stir up Adam and Greg, as they are the quintessential of the “buy the name, not the gun” buyers. They find my views, well, let’s just say “exciting.”

“Quality”, in my usage, is a shorthand term used to describe the relative amounts of skilled hand labor that went into the production of two or more guns. If I remark that gun A is a higher quality gun that gun B, I’m opining that gun A was more expensive to produce than gun B, and would have sold at a higher price point due to production costs.

I’m using the word quality as a term to describe the single largest quantifiable factor that determines the relative costs to produce two or more guns, and the relative price points of the guns as determined by cost of production.

The LI and APM are higher quality guns than the AyA No.2, as the AyA no. 2 is produced today. The AyA No. 1, OTOH, beats both the LI and APM hands down.

You sir are exactly right concerning my position at this time. The discussions here have been very helpful, and served to reinforce my interest. I definitely am aiming for a used Spanish gun, medium weight. I would like to use it for both sporting clays and field. I still have a long way to go however in being able to descern btwn mediocre and well made guns without having in my hands. Unfortunately that is also the biggest stumbling block for me, because my home area does not have many offerings of anykind of SXS I could see and handle. I am left relying mostly on the internet for my searching. At least I have a skilled and reliable gunsmith who was trained and certified by the English that I can send anything I might buy for proper inspection and evaluation.

"I think, at the moment, there are four top end, or near top end, guns out there at almost reasonable prices:

Laurona:"


Kyrie, can you shed some light on who built this or who or what "Laurona" refers to?


And look at the price on that I.Ugartechea, unbelievable!!!

That's Armas Laurona. They are out of business now, having closed a couple of years ago. Most of the Laurona guns we see here in the US are entry level box lock guns, on par with the AyA No. 4 or Ugartechea model 30/40. That gun:

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/13124950/#

is a decent grade of side lock; I think a model 502. Stock is a little short (LOP of 14 inches) and barrels are unfashionably short (25 - 26 inches) but all in all a nice gun. Not, IMO, $2800 nice but that's a personal calculation.

Be hard to find something similar or look like that at that price.

From what I've been able to find so far, the 25-26 inch guns are running about $750-$1000 cheaper than 28-30 inch bbls.

I'll add that, from my own observations, the shorter barrel guns go longer until an offer is made.

Since I like 25-26 inch barrels, none of this upsets me :-)

The thing is though we're not talking about a shotgun that weighs in at 8 1/2 pounds and looks like it was stocked with a piece of plywood we're talking about a sidelock that weighs in at under 7 lbs. and looks like it was stalked with the finest wood anyone could find and all for around $1,000.00 dollars. If I was looking for a breechloader today a used Spaniard is the first place I would look. Better than anything being produced today for that price.

Hmm, where should I be looking for the $1K fine looking sidelocks? Seriously. I've had trouble finding any in that price range looking on the usual auction sites. I'm not arguing, I'm looking for more places to search than I have found where I might see better deals.

Well my friend, you could have had this one, opening bid at $1,000.00 with no reserve.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=473311576

or this one,

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=473994954

Or this:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=473782746

Or this:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=474410550

That last one is an Ugartechea model 116, proof year 1971. I just paid $3500 for a 16 gauge Ugartechea model 116, proof year 1960, with a straight stock and splinter fore end:

Wow Kyrie, thats nice!

I especially like the polished internal lock work on that Ugartechea looks top notch. Is that what separates the Spanish sidelocks being how much attention is paid on the lock's internal parts?

When a Spanish shotgun was made probably has as much, or more, to do with the level of fit, finish, and extent/quality of engraving than any other factor. For a host of political, economic and cultural reasons labor in Spain was extremely cheap during the period of roughly 1945 – 1975. Guns made during this period will generally be better finished and have better engraving than later guns. I think that’s especially true of the period roughly 1950 – 1970, and it’s true regardless of whether we’re talking about side locks or box locks.

In terms specifically of the insides of the locks from medium level side lock guns, the 1950s guns are much more likely to have the tool marks removed and the lock parts polished than the late 1960s guns. By the early 1960s we see more locks with tool marks removed but not polished, and by the late 1960 we are more likely to find locks with traces of tool marks left.

The above 20 gauge gun just sold for $975. That's a Victor Sarasqueta, model 7E, for $975. One of the guys on my forum bought it; it is his first Spanish shotgun. I immediately offered him $1100, and I think he's still laughing :-)

For context, here is another VS 7E, in 12 gauge:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=474743945

Kyrie,
I saw that 20ga when the auction was still running. I assumed you knew, or I would have mentioned it.

Ithaca1

Of the ones linked as examples for around $1K, that 20 VS was the only one to really catch my eye. I think it was a bit abnormal for that price range too.

Have you looked over the other 7E (the one in 12 gauge)?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=474743945

Kyrie,
That engraving caught my eye and the Silvers pad would lend itself well to being leather covered. I'd like to see the inside of the locks. The bowling ball finish would have to go as well:)

I'd bet, pin configuration on the outside being what it is, that the locks are pretty much like this:

Was it common on high grade Spanish guns of that time to engine turn (jewel) the inside of the locks?

I wouldn't say engine turning was common, but when I've seen engine turning on locks it has been on very high grade guns:

Armas Parkemy Silver Especial




VS Model 213

Yes, that one is interesting. The recoil pad would have to go, too big. What's up with the strikers on that one?

Not sure what you mean about the strikers (firing pins?). But speaking of interesting, a VS 10 gauge SLE:

http://www.gunsinternational.com/Sarasqu...un_id=100542276

Look at this one;

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=474748029

Starting at $700.00 and no reserve.

"It was made by Victor Sarasqueta, not the knockoffs, which was the best Basque maker of that time."

Kyrie, could you shed some light on this maker? Wasn't there other Sarasqueta family members building guns?

I asked that seller about what looks like a crack on the top left finger from the lock plate to the safety....that was almost 2 days ago...no answer yet.....

Model 4E, sold under the Stoeger name as a Zephyr Uplander. Work horse of a gun.

There were several other makers named Sarasqueta one of which, Juan José Sarasqueta, was the older brother of Victor. Other makes named Sarasqueta included Felix Sarasqueta, Adolfo Sarasqueta, and Antonio Sarasqueta. Felix was, if memory serves(and it may not) have been the son of JJ and nephew of Victor. I don't know if thee was any relation between Adolfo, Antonio and the other Sarasquetas.

Thanks Kyrie.

At that purchase price it would be worth a restock to fit the new owner. A fitted sidelock in a price range nearly anyone could afford.

These Spanish sidelocks are killing me.

You're very welcome.

Guns with unadorned locks like those on the VS 4E were frequently purpose made as competition (mostly live pigeon) guns with the larger and heavier frames. Arrieta still does this:

Arrieta Imperial Tiro (601)

http://www.arrietashotguns.com/en/product/handmade-shotguns/imperial-tiro-601

In the grand scheme of things, these tend to be very expensive guns.

A few years ago I picked up one of these Stoeger imported VS model 4E guns in 16 gauge (for which I paid $600) and didn't realize until I had the gun in my hands that it was a pigeon gun. The gun has 1500 gram barrels and weighs almost eight pounds. Here are photos:

http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Kyrie_Ellison/slideshow/A_Temp/Victor%20Sarasqueta%204E?sort=6

So are you saying that guns with unadorned locks are more expensive than full scrolled actions? I thought you said earlier that you paid more for engraving as it's more labor intensive and that it drove the price point of a gun up.

Yes, why would one be potruding so far, and the other recessed? Spring issue, cleaning issue maybe?

Both those VS are very interesting to me, especially the 16 since another 16 is what I want currently. That Stoeger version is no shirk either from the look of it. Where were these deals when I was searching earlier and had the cash handy?

Sigh... No, I'm saying purpose built pigeon guns tend to be very expensive guns.

Ah, I understand better – thank you. The gun probably does not have firing pin return springs. Some Spanish guns will have such springs and some will not. I've not been able to see any pattern to which will and which will not.


They do seem to come and go. Months will pass without a nice 16 gauge side lock coming up at a nice price, then I’ll see three hit the market in the same week.

I need to get a list of Kyries searches.
They are sometimes hard to find.

The Spanish guns have drawn my interest recently.
.410 Grulla #2
20ga Garbi BL by WLM
12ga Garbi 101

Bill

Bill, I'm pretty sure you spotted the same Garbi boxlock 20ga on Moore's website that I did. Good buy, IMO, if you're looking for a nice Spanish boxlock--considering it's unfired. I found one of those years ago at Cabela's. That was the Ruffed Grouse Society's banquet gun going way back. The one I bought was RGS-marked, along with a number out of either 25 or 50, don't remember for sure. I was involved with the local RGS chapter at the time, and they'd given me pretty much carte blanche to pick up a not overly expensive sxs every year, which we used either in a special sxs raffle or else as a sponsor gun. That one ended up being our top dollar sponsor gun that particular year. (We usually had enough habitat sponsors that there were about 4 guns in the sponsors-only drawing.) The guy who got first pick passed up the Garbi and went with a cute little Fabarm 20ga OU that was made as a European woodcock gun: barrels about 24", bottom barrel had the "dispersion" rifling, top barrel had tubes. Nice enough prize gun, but it was probably worth about a third the value of that little Garbi. When I bought it, I figured if our RGS chapter thought it was too much money, I'd keep it. But it never ended up being "mine", unfortunately.

Bill, just do a search on Gunsinternational, Guns America, Gun Auction and Gunbroker. Just sign up (don't need to give any Credit Card info or such) and then go to the option that will notify you of new arrivals via e-mail. Many of the major deals sell on GI & GA. If you go on Gunbroker, you can do a search "new since last visited" You'll be able to find a lot of nice guns of all makes.

Good Luck!

Greg

GJW,
I've never tried the "new since last visit" feature. Will check it out. Thanks.

LB,
I purchased my Garbi BL a number of years ago as well. Just checked the WLM site and theirs is gone. Great gun.

Shot skeet with the .410 a couple of weeks ago. 1st time in all my years to shoot a .410. It was a lot of fun, and I did ok for 1/2 oz of shot (22 & 23). A bit whippy though. 30" barrels would have been a plus. It will be great on quail over a pointer. Definitely not as smooth as the 20ga BL with 28" barrels.

Ithaca1

I understand you really want a 16 gauge, but here is a 12 gauge VS 4E at an attractive price:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/957789514/Vic...1961-C-R-OK.htm

That indeed looks like an outstanding potential for someone. It might seem picky, but I'm not inclined toward one that heavy at the present. I would however be looking at this one much harder if I thought to use it for competative/high volume shooting where I would not be carrying it far and wide. I have a sub-seven Lb 12 ga. for duck, however I might have let that one pass in leu of trying this one if I'd seen it first. If it shoots properly and has no issues, this one, even heavy, is a good buy in my book as long as it fits the owner. There have been many I saw and liked, but had to pass on because the DAH was too great for me.

The Stoeger import VS 4E in 16 gauge is back up on Gun Broker:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=474748029

It has a better description now, “LoP 14 3/8 DaH is 2 3/8 and DaC is 1 1/2. Weight is 6lbs 14 oz”.