Has anyone looked into using clear Duracoat to preserve color case hardening? Seems like a much better idea than lacquer ?

I've used Duracoat on guns. Once it's on, it stays. It's a two part paint, probably epoxy. Some clear epoxies will yellow due to UV exposure. I don't know if it has UV inhibitors. Check with Duracoat. I wouldn't put it on an expensive gun because of its permanent nature. For that matter, nor would I have a gun lacquered.

Oh durn, now a gunsmith has to have a paint cabinet?
Mike

Just remember that good old Formby's gloss Tung oil is awfully good for protecting case colors. And it's easily removed.

If you are actually going to use the gun you would want something durable. Nothing is permanent no matter how much you would like it to be and lac is far from it. And tung oil is little better. I use a spray poly and even it needs a re-do every couple years.

have another day

Dr. WtS

I don't know what clear Duracoat could have in it that is better than clear Polyurethane.

If you use regular lacquer at least it is easily removed and then reapplied.

One of the things about lacquer that is talked about by the furniture refinishers is that if it is buffed after application, it wears and spots much faster. Applying your coats (I use three at least) lightly, then waxing afterwards (three coats again, with a fairly hard wax) seems to prolong the life of the finish. Periodic reapplication of wax, depending upon usage, protects and prevents damage to to the lacquer.

Here are a few points to ponder,

The parts that are case hardened are usually made of a low-carbon steel and the hard surface is needed for wear resistance. The colors are simply a pleasant byproduct of the process, they are not the reason for the process.

The colors themselves are very thin (microns), far less than .001", while the actual hardened layer could be anywhere from .002"-.010" thick. Even when the colors are gone, the hard surface remains.

The colored "layer" is extremely fragile.
Handling, cleaning and UV exposure will cause them to fade. This is unavoidable.

Often the case hardened frame (or other part) is engraved so preserving the engraver's work must also be taken into account.

This is where lacquer shows its superiority as a "finish" for case hardened parts. Lacquer, when properly applied, will not obscure even the smallest engraving detail. This is because of the way that it shrinks as it dries. Polyurethane and any catalyzed (two-part) finish are comparatively thicker to start with and generally don't shrink when dry and could actually fill engraved details. Since most catalyzed finishes are chemical proof, removal would necessarily be by some mechanical (abrasive) means which the colors obviously would not survive.
I would never advise such a permanent finish over something something so impermanent as case hardening colors. Lacquer is instantly removable in either acetone or lacquer thinner, neither of which will harm the colors in any way. It is just as easily renewed.

I would also never consider waxing case colors. Applied over a bare colored surface, the abrasives (VERY fine but still there, especially in automotive wax) would almost instantly remove the colors. There is no reason to wax a lacquered surface unless that surface is part of your car.

Lots of people wring their hands over this, but the fact is that the colors will fade. The only precautions one can take to minimize it (while still actually using the gun) are a coat of lacquer, minimal handling of the colored area(s) and casing it when outdoors but not shooting.

Dewey, thanks for your expert opinion. That's why you get the big bucks. Gil

Well said Dewey.

Dewey,
I've removed catalyzed finish with normal methylene cloride based paint strippers. No abrasive action required, once the solvent gets under the finish it will just lift off. I've even soaked color case hardened parts in carb solvent, a similar mix of the same chemistry, and it does not hurt the case colors. I just soaked them to remove old oil that had turned to varnish, no scrubbing or anything, and I let them soak perhaps 1/2 hour, at most. Rinse in mineral spirits with some kerosene mixed in, blow off excess, and let dry, following with light oiling.

After it was restocked in France, in my lefthanded dimensions, I coated the case colored visable parts of the action on this Darne with Brownell's "Baking Lacquer". The gun was not new to begin with (1946 vintage) but, had very nice colors remaining, and I wanted to preserve what I had left. I mixed the stuff up and shot it on the action, and followed the instructions for getting it to harden in the oven. It is a good product. The gun has been used, hard, for almost 22 seasons since then, and the finish has worn off the sharp edges, but, remains and looks good elsewhere.





Coating case colors, especially those on an unengraved surface, gives them a sheen that is a bit unnatural, but, it looks better than rust growing on it.


One thing that has changed is my feelings about attempting to preserve those colors, as I'm a bit ambivalent about it now. It is nice to see those colors, but, if I wear them off, I figure I had a lot of fun in the process.

Best,
Ted

Hmmm.

Dewey, do you happen to know if Renaissance Wax has abrasives in it? I was aware that car waxes contained abrasives, do waxes for preservation as well?

Answered my own question. No, it doesn't.

How about baking? It appears any lacquer can be baked for a harder and more durable finish. Ted, it certainly looks great on your gun.

Regards
Ken

Can anyone comment on how the lacquer should be applied and if there is a particular brand or brands of lacquer that work well?

Thanks,
Patrick

Ted, most solvents are harmless to case hardening colors. The rust remover-type chemicals (phosphoric, muriatic, acetic acids) are the ones that will damage the colors (but not the hardening). The cyanide case hardening colors on your Darne are generally much more durable than those of the charcoal methods regardless of what coating is used to cover it. Savage used that hardening method on countless guns with no coating at all and they hold up quite well. Starrett and Browne & Sharp also use it on many tools.

Ken, I really don't see any reason to deal with a baking lacquer.
They are only significantly tougher if applied over a parkerized surface. When done that way, the finish is all but bulletproof.

VXC, I use Minwax Brushing Lacquer and a red sable artist's brush for repairs and blending. For a newly case hardened part, or if I'm completely stripping the old lacquer from an existing part, I use Ace Hardware instant drying clear gloss lacquer in a spray can. I'm sorry that it's not something more exotic or more of a PITA to apply. What it is is hard and skin tight with exactly the right sheen.

Thank you for sharing Dewey. Non-exotic and non-PITA are right up my alley for this type of thing. Thanks again.

I'll go with Ted again. I currently have several CC Perazzis. Competition guns, used ALL the time, shot tens of thousands of rounds and left in the sun mercilessly. The oldest has been suffering that since the mid-70s prolly and def since the mid-90s when I got it. None of them show any appreciable wear or fading simply cuz I take care of them. Use whatever protection you think best and do or don't do whatever you like. The method I hold to demonstrably works.
Besta luck

BTW, Ted - that is some damn fine looking CC

have another day
Dr.WtS

I had a correspondence with Dr. Gaddy some years ago concerning photo sensitivity of CC. He was of the opinion that CC is not photosensitive and does not fade in sunlight. None of the compounds in the film should be photosensitive. Remember, the color seen is based on film thickness.

I'm going to step out on a limb just a bit here and opine that since most CC is coated with something the fade issue is likely to be photosensitivity of the coating.

Other opinions welcome.

DDA

Deleted.

One of the blurbs I found on baking lacquer asserted that baking hardened it initially, but with unbaked lacquer the hardness was essentially the same after about three months. Opinions?

Regards
Ken

Dewey thank you for your "clearing the air" a little. I for one just can't believe you would use an off the shelf finish when you could mix your own concoction of Toluene, Acetone, Ethyl acetate, Isopropyl alcohol, and petroleum distillates! I'm joking of course. I know I'm sometimes guilty of it and think a lot of others are in that we tend to over-romanticize gun finishes and application methods. Firearms Bluing & Browning by Angier probably has a hand in this...

All of these long gone gun factories were in business to make money just like any business today. Wouldn't they have used standard off the shelf or industrial products that were available at the time?

I've stolen the picture below from a post on NitroExpress.com. The rifle was being built by Holland & Holland...

is that four little brown bottles of Birchwood Casey products I see? Looks like there are a few bottles of CCL finish as well. Huh and this whole time I thought H&H only used a proprietary and mysterious blend of Alkanet root soaked linseed oil.

The baking lacquer I got at Brownell's is tougher than hell. I'm of the opinion that it never changed color in the 20+ years I've been using it. The gun has been used, hard, in that space of time, and there is no sign of chipping, peeling, scratches, or, whatever. I'd speculate that it compares favorably with automotive grade clear coat, for toughness, and resistance to color change or fading.
Dr. Sane, Thanks for noticing. Being a 1946 vintage gun, that Darne was among the first to have cyanide colors applied as a post war gun. Previous Darne guns were the more typical bone pack, and, of course, have a different "look" to them. The bone color guns, pre-war, also had a quick coat of varnish or lacquer applied at the factory, a step that was done away with on cyanide color guns. I find both varieties pleasant to look at, and I'm a fan of the finish called "coin", as well, if it is done right. I feel the Browning BSS sidelock guns just look right with the coin finish that was used, although I have no idea what that was. Nitride perhaps?
The later Darnes with the silver finish, often called "French Gray Hardening" use a process very similar to color case hardening, except the final quench occurs in a solution of potassium prusiate, instead of water. The silver color can be altered in tone somewhat by playing with the chemistry of the quench. The color is no more or less durable than color case hardening.
The Darne company quit cyanide hardening guns when they made the switch to high carbon tool steel forgings to build their guns. It doesn't color well.

Best,
Ted

Ted - the Perazzis have the cyanide look to them as well but I gotta cop to that dang Darne being prettier

Baking enamels may be harder/tougher than air dry but I certainly don't know for sure. Heat forcing the speed of the polymerization of the enamel could increase the complexity of the chains intertwining. Baked enamels on cars and motorcycles were/are standard stuff but that prolly had more to do with expediency than final durability. I dunno. BUT - baked on enamel is some tough MFer stuff and I do know that.

And I do know that I acquired a little oven thingie for fooking around with gun stuff and over the next couple of years as the re-do's come up I'm gonna try the oven baked stuff.

Tip o' the hat to Ted for the thot

have another day
Dr.WtS