Was there a pump that came before the model 10 and the model 29?
I think it had the same basic design. I think it might have been the model 8 or 9.
Thanks Pete

As I recall it, the Remington model 8 was a semi-automatic centerfire rifle.

Thinking the 10 was their first pump.
JR

The first ads and mention of the Remington Pump Gun are in 1908
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1908/VOL_51_NO_11/SL5111031.pdf

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1908/VOL_51_NO_13/SL5113029.pdf

Remington ad from Feb. 1909.
"Note the many premier wins of the Remington Pump in it's first year."
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1909/VOL_52_NO_22/SL5222028.pdf

Researcher no doubt could tell us when it was first referred to as the Model 10

And J.R. Graham used one to take individual and team Gold in the 1912 Olympic games in Stockholm





1912 Gold Medal Trap Team
Charles W. Billings, Ralph Lewis Spotts, John H. Hendrickson, James R. Graham, Edward Francis Gleason, and Frank Hall



Live action (the first minute) from the Stockholm Olympics, courtesy of Swedish Olympian Hakan Dahlby
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl...t-ts=1422579428

Thanks for the information, but I still think I remember reading somewhere about a pump that came before the model 10 that was produced for a very short time.
I hope someone knows what it might be.
Pete

http://www.remington.com/product-families/firearms-history/shotgun/pump-action-shotguns.aspx

"Remington's first pump-action six-shot repeating shotgun."

Introduction Year: 1908

I just read, that when the first Remington pump shotgun was introduced by Remington in 1908, it was called the model 8 two years later when Remington was reorganized they called it the model 10. It was the same gun but the model designation changed.
Thanks to all that responded. Pete

Are you thinking of the model 17? It was made for a short period of time then it became the Ithaca model 37 down the road. I know it came after the model 10 but just thinking.

Model 8 Remingtons were semi-automatic rifles. The Model 10 started life in 1908 as "The Remington Repeating Shotgun". After Union Metallic Cartridge and Remington merged in 1910, it became the Model 10. The Model 17 design was purchased by Remington from John Browning in 1914, but wasn't produced until 1921 because of WWI. Model 10s were only produced in 12-gauge, Model 17s were only produced in 20. Both the Model 10 (which became the Model 29 in 1929, largely by changing the safety location) and the Model 17 were replaced by the Model 31 in, you guessed it, 1931.

Model 10's are a bit sneaky when it comes to putting them back together and model 31's are simply fun to shoot and that may be said for 17's & 37's in most iterations as well.

Sorry for the ramble, but you piqued a nerve. A good one. To your original question, I am not personally aware of a Remington pump gun prior to the model 10, but I saw a couple of .410 model 12's at Tulsa several years ago, not model 42's, but model 12's(!); owner said there were six made, he knew where four or five were and had two that I handled, so I've learned to never say 'never'.

addendum: I've been politely pointed to the correct model designation for the various designs; was running from childhood memories when I posted, so am deleting the incorrect ref. Maternal Grandmother actually had both a model 8 and a model 14.5 and I was typing from a very distant and obviously confused recollection. Unfortunately, they were stolen decades ago & I don't personally own either model. My apology.

When this John D. Pedersen designed pump gun was introduced by Remington Arms Co. with a single page announcement in their 1908 catalogue, it was called the Remington Repeating Shotgun. From then through 1910, it was sometimes referred to as the Model 1908 --



In 1911, Marcellus Hartley Dodge combined his arms and ammunition companies as Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co. Beginning with the 1911-12 Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co. catalogue this John D. Pedersen designed pump gun was called the Model No. 10 --

According to Wikipedia, the Remington model 8 used a fixed box magazine, not a "spiral" or tubular magazine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_8
The "spiral" rotary magazine was an innovation in the Evans repeating rifles of the early 1870s, made in Mechanic Falls, Maine. Those lever actions held 34 rounds. http://www.leverguns.com/articles/blancard/evans.htm
FWIW, one had to work the lever 34 times to get the first round all the way to the chamber.

The only hammerless pump-gun design that predates John Pederson's Model 10 is this one (with it's later redesign below it)



John Browning sold the design for his first hammerless repeating shotgun in 1903 to the J. Stevens Arms and Tool Company in Chicopee Falls, Massachusetts. Called the Model 520, production ran from 1904 thru 1930, with guns continuing to be built on existing parts until about 1932. Stevens/Savage redesigned the gun (to look more like the Model 10 and the Model 12) and came out with the Model 620 in 1927. Production on the 620s was discontinued in 1955. These are both 20s.

The spiral tube mag you're thinking of was used on the pump rifle Remington Model 14 and 141. The 14 1/2 used a standard tube.
The spiral was to keep the bullet points off the primer of the cartridge ahead of it in the tube so spitzer bullets could be used in the tube feed mag.

A couple of other olde hammerless pumps are the 12ga Meriden Arms, a nice trim gun that is a lot like a Rem Model 10 as far as the trigger mechanism & bolt goes, but uses a standard style carrier,,not the M10 flipper style. About 1912 or so mfg I guess. Made for a couple years. Had Krupp Steel barrel.
I have one w/an extra bbl&forearm set. Nice $70 shooter till the already cracked stock gave it up. In the rotation for repair now.

The Stevens 200 pump shotgun. Made in 20ga w/ 3" chamber only.
About the same time period and for about the same short production,,a couple years. Very light,,5.5# maybe. Have 2 of them,,a parts gun and very nice example. No 3 inchers through the gun by me but it does shoot nice with light loads.
Very complicated action.

The 520 beats them both in production anyway if 1904/05 is it's beginning.
The rarely seen Union Arms pumps started production a bit earlier I think,,maybe '02 or 03. But not really a household name/gun nor a design to be relied upon or copied IMO.

Had a chance to buy a Stevens 525 last week,,a project gun. But too many projects now as much as I like projects and 520's.
525 was a 520 w/a solid rib, import walnut stocks and nice checkering.
I think the 535 was better wood and checkering plus engraving.

Kutter;
Is that Stevens 200 the model which had the short breech bolt & consequently a much shorter receiver than most pumps or semi autos giving it a shorter overall length for the same barrel length. If you can post it would love to see a picture of it.

I believe that at the time these guns were built the 3" 20 gauge shells still only carried an ounce of shot, just gave a better wad column when bulk powders were often used. I would think you're very wise not to stuff it with "magnums".

The Burgess and Spencer predate the ones mentioned above by more than a decade.

Were the Burgess and Spencer guns hammerless? The ones I've seen were not. Interesting guns, but not hammerless. The Burgess Gun Company was bought out by Winchester in 1899 (to eliminate the competition?). Even though Winchester and John Browning were feuding (they wouldn't pay him any royalties on a per gun basis) he shamelessly borrowed the Burgess take-down for his first hammerless repeating shotgun design and then promptly sold it to J. Stevens Arms and Tool because, much like FN, they were willing to pay him as he wished. Browning (and then his heirs) collected royalties on 520(and then the 620) production until 1955. I wonder if this is partly why production records were so poorly kept by Stevens/Savage?

That's the one. The breech bolt itself is only about an inch long. That keeps the recv'r short by not having to have a lot of empty space behind the ejection port for a long breech bolt to retract into.
I think there were two different designs to these Model 200 shotguns.
One using 2 sliding 'wings' to cover the port and provide a cartridge guide,,the other having only one such sliding plate or 'wing' as they are usually called.
The parts diagrams that can be found show the 2,,and a specific screw pattern on the right side of the recv'r. (They weren't shy about using screws in this gun).
The 2 guns I have use only one guide and have a different screw pattern.
I had another M200 many years ago, but don't remember which style is was.

The ejector is a T shaped bar in the center of the bolt face.
The firing pins seem to be broken often in these. Maybe they don't take kindly to dry firing.
The TD spanner wrench hides in the end of the mag tube. It looks like the end-cap of the tube but it unscrews w/the spanner attached. Most owners don't even realize it's there judging from the punch and hammer marks on the TD ring from attempts at disassembly. Only 1/3 turn on the TD ring and the bbl & forend assembly pulls straight forward out of the frame.

Didn't know about the early 20ga, 3" loads. Makes sense now in the light weight gun.

I have a couple pictures. I'll see if I can figure out the new picture posting thingy I have on this computer.

Lloyd, my memory seems to be half right. I just checked my picture files and the Burgess shotguns I have pictured do have external hammers. The Spencers pictured do have internal hammers.

Mr. Hallquist: I stand corrected. Spencer obviously got there first.

More on the Meriden repeater...

Marketing material stated that coming on October 1st, 1913 would be the "Meriden Repeating Hammerless Shotgun. Better than the rest." It was to have perfect balance, handsome lines, and "Genuine Krupp Steel Barrels".

The new slide action shotgun would be based Arthur J. Savage's patent which was clearly communicated in advertising for the firearm as well as on the gun itself.

The Meriden slide action shotgun was based on A.J. Savage's patent ( 1019367 ). G.A.Horne later received patent ( 1146569) which revised the cartridge cut-off and sear lock of the original Savage design.