I'm holding a set of .410 barrels engraved "Ithaca Co Ithaca NY". The owner of the barrels believes that they are for an Ithaca "Flues"and should fit onto an Ithaca Flues 28 ga frame. As one can see, they do not. The barrels in the background of both photos are from my Ithaca 28 ga Flues. Note how different they are. The barrels in question are stamped E. Flues.
Does anyone have any knowledge of Ithaca Co as opposed to the "Ithaca Gun Co"? Mr Snyder? Anyone?
In the second photo the real Flues barrels are on the bottom.
I had hoped to purchase these to make up a 28/410 two barrel set on my grade 2 -28 gauge Ithaca Flues.
I find the sideclip cuts interesting
It also appears that the mystery gun must have been a crossbolted gun judging by the rib extension. A prototype perhaps? Does the owner of the barrels have the rest of the gun?
No, he has only the barrels and was selling them as "Flues" barrels, I believe because of the Flues stamp.
Emil was in Ithaca of course BUT I am not aware of him producing anything on his own at that time. His last gun was a .410 that he was working on at the time of his death in Michigan. I never found an "Ithaca Company" while doing my research. The marking on the barrels looks strange to me. The barrels may be associated with Emil but the rest looks suspicious IMO.
Those .410 barrels are made for a gun that has:
1 - a Purdey-style sliding underbolt
2 - side clips
3 - Greener-type crossbolt
4 - D&E type forend latch
4 - ejectors
I suspect that they're from a Spanish gun. They're certainly not for any American-made gun. The "Ithaca" markings appear to have been done by a diamond drag, the method employed by most trophy engraving shops.
The stippled rib matting also appears very un-American-made.
Yes these are fake
As soon as I saw the engraving that was a dead give away
I have seen things like this before done on guns
I know of someone who had made up a complete set of original parker
Marking dies made,all the original marks
Also there were 2 sets of English proof marking dies in the US
I am convinced Emil imported barreled actions from probably Germany and finished them here, especially when he was in Buffalo, NY. All were high quality work. I base my opinion on the several different design Emil Flues guns I have had the opportunity to examine. This is not to suggest that Emil could not make a gun, he surely could and did. The fellow in Genoa, NY did likewise.
Walt, that is my experience, too. My thought is that the E Flues mark was put on the barrel set at a different time than the other engraving. Most likely before the Ithaca marks.
Other than the engraving that says Ithaca, are the barrels in question configured in a fashion of the Flues models? I guess I'm asking, did the Ithaca Gun Company make changes to the design of the lug, water table,flats etc. that are seen here in the variation between my 28 ga Ithaca Flues barrels and the barrels in question? Or did the "Flues" design remain relatively consistent through that period? The owner of these barrels is telling me that these were very late "Flues" barrels, but I have never seen another set that is so different. I have only ever seen a tiny fraction of the guns that you have seen.
Fred, in my experience, the barrels are consistent with European guns. Certainly not at all like any Ithaca Gun Co. model of the early part of the 20th century. The E. Flues guns [not Ithaca] could more closely resemble the set of barrels in question, but the E. Flues guns seem to come in a variety of mechanical designs.
Fred, FWIW, Ithaca did not make a .410 in the Flues model
Yes I am aware of that, which is why the sound of the barrels was so intriguing!
What I meant to ask.. were the" Ithaca Gun Co, Flues" models consistent in the design from the start until the end of the period, and then changes were made to create the "NID"? It seems to me that "Ithaca Gun Co" did make the "Flues" heavier as time went along, but I wasn't aware of other changes to the design of the model.
While the basic design of the Flues Model Ithaca was consistent, there were subtle changes along the way. Early on the top-lever was screwed to the spindle --
and later they were one piece --
There were various styles of profiling the receivers. Rounded --
and sometimes the profiling goes nearly straight up --
There were also a change in the barrel lug on the latter Flues guns. Around 1913 the 3 position safety was changed to a 2 position safety.
In Daryls pictures also note the variation in the style of the breech balls. When I was in High school I used to hunt with a friend who had an Ithaca 12 ga. with the thin breech balls as shown in the first side view. The frame wasn't cracked, but the thin breech balls had bent far enough that you could see the brass of the shells with the barrel closed.
There were also a change in the barrel lug on the latter Flues guns.
Are there any photos available of the lug change? Does it match the barrels in question?
I now believe these barrels to be "fake" as well. But I am being denied the right to return them for a refund on my purchase.
These barrels are plainly not for ANY American-made gun, period, end of story, regardless of the engraving or the story that goes with them.
If it's a dealer that's refusing to honor your request, I would suggest that you tell everyone here his name. He's either unethical or completely ignorant of what he's selling.
The seller is not a dealer, but is a collector with a very extensive and expensive collection.
I made the purchase based on his reputation and "sales pitch" that these were the real deal and only ones in existence. I have been strung along by him ever since my initial call to him after receiving the barrels, asking to return them. Now he won't answer my calls, or hangs up as soon as he realizes that it is me calling.
Is there any recourse other than small claims court? I understand that this is not a large enough value to involve an attorney. We are talking $3500+
I am open to any advice from others that may have been involved in a situation similar to mine.
Fred I missed it if you disclosed what you paid for the barrel set. It seems clear that you didn't get what you thought you were getting, but whether the seller knew or not likely cannot be proved. If the money is not sufficient to pursue with a lawyer, it just isn't worth pursuing. Disclose the seller here for the benefit of the rest of us, and chalk the whole experience up to tuition...Geo
I see where you amended your last post and disclosed what you paid for the barrel set. That's some pretty strong tuition. Forget small claims court. I'll stick to the advice I offered above.
Re small claims court: you could probably do it yourself if you have the time and the inclination.
A couple things to consider:
1. was the transaction interstate? This raises 2 issues:
a. You might have trouble hauling the seller into court in your home state, i.e., a jurisdictional issue.
b. How gun-friendly is your jurisdiction? If it's friendly, then it might make more sense bringing him into court than if it's not friendly. In an unfriendly jurisdiction, you can be sure the judge will find a way to f'k you over and make you lose the suit, at a minimum, or try to have you incarcerated (for bringing a gun to the courthouse) at the outside. The judge might also be ignorant of the law on private sales of parts and, indeed, what constitutes a "firearm"; explaining that the law makes only receivers firearms (under federal law - your state's law may vary) is likely to be too much of a mental stretch for the person wearing the robe. Small claims judges' attention is most centered on moving cases, not on fine legal points.
2. You'll need an expert to give testimony that "these are not genuine", i.e., the subject of this thread. While a letter from a recognized expert might do, you cannot be sure the judge will not require live testimony from your expert. Shipping experts around gets expensive and their time, moreso.
3. If you're going to send a letter demanding the seller undo the transaction - which appears to be all you really want - be careful in how you phrase it. Threatening to sue, to haul him into court can, depending on the jurisdiction, be construed as extortion. That depends on how the state writes its laws on that subject. Probably best to say something along the lines of "I've contacted recognized experts in the field and they are uniform in advising these barrels are not what you said. I propose we undo this transaction and both walk away wiser." Send it certified with a copy by regular so he can't later say "I never got any such letter". (They always do that.)
4. Be prepared to have him call any bluff you might make.
5. If you decide this is too much like work, then it's best to write it off to experience. Further, to get someone to eradicate the offending text on the barrels so no one else suffers. Whether you want to tell who the seller was is your call. I'm glad I'm not in your shoes - I don't know whether I would or not. YMMV.
3500 for barrels that carry all their value as remelt is a pretty stiff lesson...he figures he got 3500 for something he pulled out of a barrel at some gun show years ago and hes not giving it back.....Id have to go after him ....
but he's not the first collector, author, authority, to wright their own history on their goods....
3500 dollars is far too much to simply chalk up to "education".
If he doesn't make good, I'd make certain that everyone knows his name.
Walter and Daryl are right on target. Those barrels are a pretty darned close match to those on my Grade 40 Sauer 16ga, from 1909-1910.
I'd venture many of us have a pretty good idea of who the seller is anyhow...Geo
The seller is in Florida, I am in Utah.
I have been looking into small claims court in Florida. I believe that the transaction would be considered to have taken place in Florida.
I would FAR prefer to settle this with the seller without court or blasting his name across the internet.
He told me that he purchased these in a group of items at a gun auction. He did not pay a premium for them for being the "only known set". Had they been what he advertised, I would have been happy to invest in them, creating a .410/28 ga grade 2 Ithaca Flues. Because they are not, I feel burned and taken.
If I were to change places with the seller, and I became aware that they were counterfeit, I would immediately attempt to make it right. To make, and keep that kind of profit knowing that they are fake is just plain wrong. Unfortunately I don't believe that he sees it like I do.
When I have attempted to call him to fully explain the situation, he hangs up on me.
I would venture to guess the "e flues" on the lug and the chamber markings on the side of the chamber area to be original as it was originally imported and marked by Emil when he received the imported action/barrels in the white or similar situation.
As stated above a lot of EF attributed guns are very continental in design and are probably made of at least some imported parts in the white.
The scratchings on top of the chambers are just that, scratchings.
Would be good to see if there are any proof marks left...looks like something just forward of the flats on the rib?
Just tossing that out there, if I am right I would like to see the gun, if there is one that they were fitted to?
Walt, 410 last gun before he died, this could be interesting...or very much so not:)
I'd say that the first step is a Certified Letter stating your intentions. There's got to be a way to present this in such a way as to substantiate the Fraud. Did he ship the barrels via the Post Office? How did you pay for them? You could possibly pursue that route as well.
The barrels came by FedEx, I paid with a personal check.
There are no other markings on the flats or the rib, or anywhere else for that matter, other than left barrel has "410 2 1/2 inch & 3 inch
Again, the seller has stated that he purchased them in a grouping of items at a gun auction. He never had anything else that went with the barrels, is my understanding. Although the bores were dirty with gunpowder, so they had been shot previously.
The ad is from the Spring 2015 Double Gun Journal.
Based on the phone number in the ad the following is public information:
" Board of County Commissioners
Palm Beach County Florida
Consumer Affairs Division
Public Safety Department
50 South Military Trail, Suite 201
West Palm Beach, FL, 33415
Main Office (561) 712-6600 - Boca/Delray/Glades (888) 582-7362
Visit Our Website: www.pbcgov.com/consumer
Business Information Report on: Roger Quisenberry
Date of Report: 6/23/2015
Reporting Period: 6/23/2012 To: 6/23/2015
Business Type: Real Estate
Business Address: 5421 S FLAGLER DRIVE
West Palm Beach, FL, 33405
Business Mailing Address: PO BOX 6293
West Palm Beach, FL 33405
Phone Numbers of Business: (561) 588-7868 Fax: Not available
Established Year: Not available
Consumer Affair's Business ID: 9406042
Web site address of business: Not available
Email address of business: Not available
Person handling consumer disputes: Not available
Company required to be licensed through P.B.C Consumer Affairs: No
The report on this business is based up on the information we have for this reporting period only.
The Palm Beach County Consumer Affairs Division cannot rate or recommend any product, service, or company. The following is provided to assist you in exercising your own best judgment. Your evaluation of a company should include the number of years it has been established and its volume of business. We have no way of determining the volume of business for any company. More detailed information may be available by visiting Consumer Affairs and reviewing the files (if any) in their entirety. Although we cannot guarantee total accuracy, we have made every attempt to reliably record and maintain the information provided to us by consumers, businesses and/or what has been discovered through our investigations. Information is subject to change at any time.
No consumer disputes on file for this reporting period."
I think that it's time to file a "consumer dispute" with the Palm Beach County Consumer Affairs Division - telephone number 561-712-6600.
Here's a link to the Palm Beach County Consumer Affairs Code https://www.municode.com/library/fl/palm...H9COAF_ARTIINGE
Give him hell!
Gunnut what is "remelt"if that is a term for scrap, these barrels have a lot more value. they do look like sauer barrels and may be able to be fit to a 16/20 sauer so not to be a total loss something that could be resurrected and not to be a total loss ,
not much meat to the breach end of those barrels....would have to be fitted to a 28ga or true 410 sized frame, not a 20 or 16ga....Im sure if the seller could of found a frame/gun to fit those barrels to he would of.....so unless sitting around looking at a flues stamping on a barrel lug is what floats your boat I see little value....and for sure not anywhere near $3500...and by saying the barrels were all set to fit to flues 28ga....makes this seller a liar, or nut case....
Well Fred, there you have it - several very valid opinions and recommendations.
You're a very nice guy and I know it's not like you to be vindictive, but you shouldn't take this "lyin' down."
If I may add the following it may help or hamper this issue.http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopi...+Flues#p3294681
I saved pics of this gun, One of 10 prototype Flues Guns (the first ten) #175010. It has different barrel lugs, one is through the frame. If one of you would like to post the pics I will email my file of pictures saved from the proxibid auction.
Although I'm relatively familiar with Ithaca doubles, there are people with WAY more expertise than I have. However, I would have known from one quick look at that set of barrels that they would not fit a Flues. Or, for that matter, any other Ithaca double I've ever seen. Anyone who claims to know Ithacas and who claimed that they'd fit . . . well, either they don't know Ithacas or else what they were selling was a bill of goods.
I don't believe the seller for a moment.
A collector who knows that the Flues was never manufactured in .410
A collector who knows to advertise in the DGJ?
Yet he accepts that a "E. Flues" stamp means that the barrels fit the Flues model?
If he had put them up on Gunbroker with pictures, he would never have sold them. Seems almost purposeful.
Is this really any different than if you had bought what was advertised as a Rolex, yet turned out to be a counterfeit? Or, a stone represented to be a Diamond turned out to be Zirconium?
I agree with Ken, and do not see how or why it could be a problem to at very least name the seller. If someone decides to cheat me out of $3500.00, I'm coming after my money, one way or another. He knows he did wrong and won't even answer a phone call to discuss a return. We've seen a few people change gears and do the right thing after their little scam was outed here. Legitimate sellers offer a reasonable return policy. This sounds like the near impossible return policy of anti-gun Ed Good which is something like "I know what I am selling and you are expected to know what you are buying." Even if it was a complete gun, and it was advertised as an Ithaca and turned out to be a Simpson, you ought to be able to return it since it was misrepresented. ANTI-GUN POSTS BY ED GOOD
The sellers name is in the public information post on page 2.
Who would be qualified as professionals/ expert witnesses, that I might engage to state in an affadavit that the barrels are not Ithaca Gun Company "Flues" barrels and never would be "set to fit on a Flues model". That they are fakes.
I believe I not only purchased Flues barrels, but also .410 barrels that are "likely only such extant!".
That is a pretty big statement.
It's hard to imagine that you could find a more "expert witness" than Mr. Walt. Snyder since he authored the "Bible" on Ithaca Guns and has probably done more research on them than anyone. I'm glad that you intend to at least try to get a refund. Since the seller is no stranger to guns, he can't exactly plead ignorance. Good luck. Please let us know how it works out for you.
I know about Roger Quesenberry. Good luck about getting any of your money back
The defense might be that they are Flues barrels (per the stamp on the lump), just not Ithaca Flues barrels. Don't know how much water that would hold. But it is pretty widely known that Emil Flues was involved in building guns other than Ithacas.
I think what would clarify the "Emil Flues" point and clearly indicate the Fraud would be the additional "Ithaca" markings, showing the attempt to defraud by misrepresentation. I'm no expert on engraving, but the "Ithaca" markings, as was previously mentioned, appear to be engraved with a different type tool than was actually used on Ithaca guns. It looks like it may have been done with a rotary burr tool. The individual letters look waaay too "Wide", as compared to a stamp or chisel...
Happen to know anyone in the Palm Beach area that you could provide a Limited Power of Attorney to? They could then pursue it on your behalf down there...
Besides letters from experts, you should also request a letter from DGJ, since they were unwittingly made accessory to the Fraud.
This shows that doing a search of a private sellers name, before sendng them a check should be made. Better yet send Postal money orders and use the Postmaster in cause of frauds. Lots of troubling information on people out there for the finding. I also would have called a couple people I know in the area for their off the record thoughts. But not everyone has local contacts. And people will speak freer than they will answer a text type message.
Back when I was still collecting Winchester Model 70's I was hot to buy a very rare gun from an unknown to me seller. This was pre Internet days. Three calls to local, to him, gun clubs and one to the local sherif set off every alarm bell in my head. So I passed. Heard later three other buyers were not so lucky and all failed to get money returned. Seller seemed to skip town every two or three years and not return until statue of limitations lapsed. Back in those days it was far easier to move away and just disappear. There were no web searches or other easy means of finding people when they moved and left no forwarding address. I hope you stick with it and you get your money back.
You don't need an expert to see there is no cocking hook or a way to get it ready for fitting without completely re-machining the hooks and lumps. MKII
When I pursue this in court I would prefer to have at least two experts statements saying that the barrels just are not what they were sold to be.
Unlikely to get a judge that also a knowledgeable doublegun aficionado. I don't need the expert to convince me.
Pls keep in mind that the purpose of an expert witness is to assist the finder of fact (jury, or judge in a trial without a jury) by providing information on a specialized area of knowledge. The Rule of Evidence (one version of it, anyway) on experts reads like this:
If scientific, technical or other specialized knowledge will assist the trier of fact to understand the evidence or to determine a fact in issue, a witness qualified as an expert by knowledge, skill, experience, training or education may testify thereto in the form of an opinion or otherwise.
In this instance, the Man Who Wrote The Book on Ithacas would be almost certain to be qualified as an expert. There are probably others, too.
Beware trying to present a written opinion in place of a live witness for your expert testimony...Geo
small claims court....both sides just tell their stories and show pertinent evidence and the judge decides....no fuss, no muss, no lawyers.....
small claims court....both sides just tell their stories and show pertinent evidence and the judge decides....no fuss, no muss, no lawyers.....
Depends on the Judge and whether the other party shows up with a mouthpiece which he has every right to do. This ain't "Judge Judy" on the TV...Geo
Keep in mind also that once you sue somebody in another State you become subject to the jurisdiction of the Court there, and subject to a counterclaim...Geo
Beware trying to present a written opinion in place of a live witness for your expert testimony...Geo
Concur wholeheartedly. I mentioned that way, way upthread, as well as the expensive nature of shipping experts around.
Geo, I'm kinda curious as to what conceivable counter-claim the seller in a case like this could file? And if it is actually necessary to have an expert witness present in lieu of a sworn notarized affidavit, are the costs of getting him to court recoverable as part of the damages?
About 20 years ago, I got screwed out of $40 on book order. When I didn't receive my order, I called and complained. I was told the company was in bankruptcy. Long story short, I told the guy that my brother lived in Houston and when I took my vacation there, I would be paying him a visit to get my 40 bucks one way or another. Let's just say my tone and language was less that civil. A week later, there was a refund in my mailbox. Sometimes extreme measures are helpful. I don't even have a brother.
keith, who knows what some shyster local mouthpiece, who likely plays golf with the Small Claims Court Judge, might come up with? Perhaps libel, I don't know. Those guys are tricky!
The problem with an affidavit is the right of any defendant to cross examine an opposing witness, expert or not. So, yes the expert's gotta be there.
A good bluff will get you a long ways sometimes, might also get you locked up...Geo
Please understand, I really feel sorry for Mr. Lowe, he seems like a nice guy who got cheated from the information I have seen here. I just hate to see him get goaded into doing something foolish which just makes his experience worse.
Oh, plaintiff files suit cost of proving his case is on him. There are rare exceptions to this. Wasn't ignoring your very pertinent question, just missed it in my reply...Geo
Geo, thanks again for the pro bono legal advice. I just find it troubling to think that we may have a legal system designed to allow cheats and shysters to flourish simply because they live in another state. I don't know how Mr. Lowe paid for this item, but as has been noted, I have been told it is a good idea to pay with a U.S. Postal Money Order because the Postal Inspector will become involved in a mail fraud case. I told you what I did over potentially losing $40. I can't imagine walking away from $3500.00 and just calling it a life lesson.
I agree with what you said about the bluff technique. It would be stupid to get caught. But somehow getting even, or better yet, getting even with interest, dividends, and substantial penalties is extremely satisfying. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
Sounds like a challenge for Dewey Vicknair.
After reading this thread, can there be any wonder why most people consider gun peddlers to be lower than used car salesmen?
Anyone advocating giving in to this criminal idiot is guaranteeing future crimes will continue to be committed. Don't allow yourself to be a victim. Don't encourage others to be a victim.
If you give in, it is exactly what the low life wants. They make their money on your ignorance and excessive optimism, and they keep it based on your embarrassment.
I have been successful in these kinds of matters using a selection of methods. I am not afraid to escalate to arrive at satisfaction.
Every peddler that is beat down, protects other people from becoming their future victims.
If you only want to use the courts, then line everything up before you drop the hammer.
But this POS would certainly give in with just a visit.
He knows he committed a crime, you just need to make him understand the sherrif thinks so too.
I think the ad in DGJ says "Usual Three Day Guarantee" I wonder how the buyer stands in that area.
My attorney tells me that the crime was committed in Utah, so we have filed locally and the Seller will be served.
The Seller has refused Certified letters from me.
We will see if being served changes his attitude, if not we will continue to move forward.
I will update as things progress.
BTW, We are fine on the return dates, but I would still be looking for a refund after 3+ days when the barrels are found to be fakes and not "ready to be set on a Flues model".
In order to overcome the expenses of travel for an expert witness to another state, either a video or "paper" deposition for use at trial can be used to provide testimony. The reason an affidavit is not admissible in a trial to establish facts is because the affiant is not subject to cross examination by the adverse party. Deposition testimony is subject to cross examination and is"in the can" and is not subject to starts and stops or unexpected continuances by either side as trials can be. Nothing worse is to show up with witnesses out of state and learn that someone is "sick". Of course, there are more expenses in taking a deposition, video or otherwise, but once it is done, it is done. If the seller has conducted business in your state previously, he may be subject to your state's "long arm" statute allowing the suit to be brought on your home turf. Emphasis on "may". All of this is fact intensive and dependent on your state's laws. I'm sure (sorta) that your lawyer has looked into this possibility. There are ways under the Civil Practice Act applicable in most states to shift the burden of all costs and expenses to the loser but they depend on the laws of the state where the case is tried. Not all courts in the same states share the same procedural laws under the Civil Practice Act. The small claims court in my state doesn't.
I believe some of you are correct, that these are Sauer barrels. This is a side by side comparison of the barrels that I was sold, and a photo of a Sauer model 180, .410 that was on Julia's site.