I am taking an 1870s hammer gun with damascus barrels to the UK for driven pheasant this fall. The gun has 2 1/2" chambers and is proofed at 3 tons for nitro. Does anyone know or recommend a light pressure load made in the UK that I could have my outfitter purchase for me? Anything that might be equal to the RST that we have in the states?
Check to see if P&B High Pheasant loads are available, the 1 ounce loads run in the 6000 psi range. I know the are made in Italy. Eley might be producing some as I've bought 65mm hulls with the Eley headstamp and I believe Gamebore cartridges make 2.5"/65mm cartridges
Gamebore UK
http://www.gamebore.com/products/16/12g-super-game-high-birdEleyhawk UK
http://www.eleyhawkltd.com/cartridge/12-gauge/game/classic-game-paper-case
I use Hull Imperial, and prefer the 26 gram version, but they are available in 26, 28 or 30 gram versions.
Do please check if your host requires felt/fibre wads as many UK shoots don't allow plastic wads (and don't get caught out by arriving with plastic if it is not allowed on your host's shoot). Personally, I would always use felt/fibre (even for clays) as I dislike to see the plastic litter. Imperial game are all fibre.
http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk/impgame.htmMuch depends on your gun's weight. A gun below 6 1/2 lbs will be very lively with 30 gram.
Another factor is the height of the birds. Some of the (few) very high bird shoots (think Devon valleys) may not be so well suited to a vintage gun with suitable loads as many of the attendees there claim a heavy extra high performance load is needed. Attendees there tend to use their 34" barelled Perazzis and 42 gram loads. I can't really comment as I have never been.
Hull Imperial 26 or 28 gram are fine for the normal shooting I do.
I hope you have a really enjoyable time with your vintage gun over here.
I agree with John's comments. You will not encounter the slightest problem in obtaining the correct type of cartridges for a 2 1/2" chamber gun here in the U.K. as most loads sold for game shooting will be suitable. There are many brands to choose from. Just tell the gun dealer what you want them for and the gun you use and he will advise. There will be many brands to choose from.
Most pheasants will be shot with 1 ounce loads of number six shot. 1 1/8th. ounce loads are considered heavy here. There are some shoots that put on very high birds and there is some controversy here over the practice because of the risk of wounding. For these shoots, as John says, they will use over choked guns firing 1 1/4 ounce loads. Last year I shot driven pheasants (not overly high, just normal) with a 28 bore and 3/4 ounce loads. I had no reason to be disappointed and kills were clean.
Talk with your host. Don't forget there are beaters, flankers, stops and people behind picking up. If it hasn't got sky round it then leave it as there will be another along in a few seconds that will provide a good safe sporting shot. Good luck. Do you know where you are going yet? Lagopus.....
Hull imperial game in a 26 or 28 gram loading, its a fantastic cartridge and i have just bought another slab today a very good cartridge in vintage guns. I have had them in 5's and 6's and in 26 and 28 grams and its a cartridge that gives me confidence.
Thank you all for the good information. No one mentioned the H&H paper shells. They have the slowest fps and thus are likely to have the lowest pressures.
I sent the recommendations to my UK outfitter. We shoot on 3 estates, so for good measure, should get fiber wads, and I think paper hulls and probably a max. of 1 oz. might seem reasonable.
I would not worry about paper hulls; from my experience its an absolute rarity to see anyone using paper hulls shooting in this country unless they are an enthusiastic BP shooter, best practice is to always pick up your empty cartridges at the end of the drive so the biodegradable advantage of paper hulls makes no difference.. fiber wads however are pretty important most shoots insist on that.
Another thing to bear in mind is our.. interesting.. laws on shooting wildfowl, if the shoots have a duck drive or flight as part of the day you will likely need to look getting some kind of bismuth or tungsten matrix cartridge as its illegal to shoot wildfowl with lead in the UK.
Would be really interested to see a write up of your shooting here.
Just following on from johns post about high birds, hull imperial game will cope with very good sporting birds, if you know the birds you will be shooting are going to be particularly tall and you are determined to shoot your vintage gun consider going up a couple of shot sizes. I believe imperial game are loaded as big as shot size 4 which might just give you more retained energy at range.
Another thing to bear in mind is our.. interesting.. laws on shooting wildfowl, if the shoots have a duck drive or flight as part of the day you will likely need to look getting some kind of bismuth or tungsten matrix cartridge as its illegal to shoot wildfowl with lead in the UK.
I've shot wildfowl in Scotland with lead. It's been my understanding that it depends on where you're shooting, as in maybe over water or something like that vs over land. But I also seem to recall someone saying that the nontoxic shot requirement is different in England than in Scotland.
Len,
Sounds like you have gotten some good advice. However, I don't like the thought of risking that Grant to the vagaries of baggage handlers, government inspectors and unknown ammunition. I will let you take my Model 50 Husqvarna to the UK and I'll watch over your gun while you're gone. The Husky has had the cones lengthened and you can shoot whatever you want in it. It's choked IM/IM and will work well on tall pheasants. I'll even deliver it to you so we can swap guns without shipping them. I know, I know, it's a generous offer on my part.
Regards,
Jeff
Since 1999, the use of lead shot for all wildfowling has been made illegal in England and Wales.
You are quite right however that the use of lead is different in Scotland and Northern Ireland depending on the area over which you are shooting
The use of lead is also illegal for all shooting on or over wetlands (including foreshore) in Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Unfortunately the offerings for non toxic cartridges suitable for vintage guns are generally limited and expensive.
There are three commercially available loading's i have tried.
1) Impact ( a tungsten matrix ) 65mm case, fibre wad, 30 grams of 5's are £66 / box of 25 shells
2) VIP EVO III Bismuth, 28 gram, 5's, 67mm case ( suitable in 2 1/2 inch chambers ) fibre wad, £33 / box of 25 shells.
3) HEVI SHOT 65mm plastic wad, 26 grams of 5's, £50 / box of 25.
These are the only offerings i have found that suit vintage guns and will go through Damascus or old barrels without causing damage. Most organised shoots insist on using non toxic on wild fowl and i can think of more than one shoot that will sell boxes to unprepared sportsmen on the day, thing is you really can't guarantee that anyone is going to have cartridges that will suit your gun.
Hope the information is useful to you or others, my personal preference is the VIP bismuth.
James, I would be concerned with the pressure of the Hevi Shot load and a gun from 1875. Do you know what the pressure rating of the shell is? Additionally, hevi shot is hard shot and would scratch the barrel should one erode through the wad or get between wad and barrel. It's incompressibilty can also damage guns with choking greater than modified. Does a gun from 1875 have choke??
I would suspect the Holland & Holland cartridges have been loaded for them; probably by Hull Cartridges Co. Paper cases are just a little more expensive than plastic. Some shoots like you to pick up your empties at the end of the drive or at least live them in a small pile at your stand. One shoot I have been to have the Keeper's young son go round each stand or peg with a bucket at the end of the drive. He does well for tips. Good luck. Lagopus.....
We've always collected ours. In addition to removing litter, it allows you to keep decent track of how you're shooting.
Hi, both Jeff and Larry and the others.
I'm mentally committed to taking the Grant. It's not the same borrowing a gun, whether from here or there. My gun was made for Lord Inchiquin, titular head of the O'Brian clan, back in 1876, so I'm sort of bringing it back home, or close, for a brief period. I know the risks. But part of the lure of shooting in Scotland are the traditions, and my own vintage hammergun just adds to the experience.
Regarding non-toxic shot, we also use lead for the waterfowl at all of the estates we've shot at. We shoot over man-made impoundments, mostly I suspect for sheep watering. I wonder if the non-toxic requirement is for natural water sites. In addition, although there may possibly be some wild ducks present, our outfitters buy and later release spring, day-old ducklings in the same manner as they do with the pheasant chicks. That may also alter the non-toxic requirement.
Leonard, not wishing to be rude , but congratulations on your naivety ! It makes not one iota of difference whether you shoot over a loch, lake or sheep dip , it's water and you need non-toxic. All this came about because we Brits were lead by the nose after a bunch of Greenies listened to Californians bleating about Snow Geese , Bald Eagles , Condors and using lies and falsehoods about the toxicity of Lead and how efficient soft iron was as an alternative. Twenty years later we are still hobbled by the lack of an efficient alternative to lead shot.
Salopian, he's shooting in Scotland, not England. I've shot waterfowl there with lead. I understand there are restrictions, but it's not a blanket ban. And I've always trusted the people running the shoots to tell me if it's legal. Expect Len is in the same boat.
You may well have not had any issues in the past however the situation as changed in the last few years.
The non toxic rules here are ridiculous and the shooting community is campaigning for changes with these laws, however the shooting community has a poor leg to stand on in this regard due to the historic mass non compliance to the non toxic rules.
The situation is simple, if you want to shoot wild fowl here comply with the law.
The law is simple:
In England if you are shooting wild fowl use non toxic.
In Scotland if you are shooting wild fowl and you can see a body of water; use non toxic.
The fact that the water might not naturally be there or that the ducks are put down is entirely irrelevant.
The situation has changed as we need compliance as we currently face loosing lead entirely which would be a disaster but that is what all reports say is coming.
Read more here:
http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/Because the publicity the issue has had over the last few years sportsmen are more aware or the risks of non compliance and of the alternatives available.
Many shoots will try and enforce compliance now as, as much as any other reason insurance policies would refuse to pay out if it was found that the law was being broken.
To avoid the disappointment of having to sit out the duck drive I suggest you just get a box of cartridges for each shoot day so you are covered. Or arrange your out fitter to speak to the estates to get them to drive out another wood instead of ducks.
I think its awesome you are giving the grant a home coming and I would love to see a write up once you return.
If you want to read more about the issues the shooting community is facing with regards lead more is here:
http://www.leadammunitiongroup.org.uk/http://leadshotcampaign.org.uk/?page_id=11http://basc.org.uk/lead/https://www.gov.uk/government/publicatio...mmunition-grouphttp://www.shootinguk.co.uk/features/lead-ban-a-world-without-lead-452
Shot ducks in Scotland as recently as last December with lead. But I don't recall that I could actually see a body of water on any drives where ducks were taken.
Len,
I wouldn't take a trip without bringing my own gun either. I hope you have a fabulous time over there.
Regards,
Jeff
We last year shot directly over water with lead.
The information that Demonwolf444 sent notes that bismuth is suitable for damascus guns, but can be $3 per shell. At first blush, that is awfully expensive, but we may shoot only one duck drive per day, so that might be 10 to 40 shells, depending on one's luck. Since the cost per shoot per day might be $1000 - $1500 (25 birds X $40-50 per bird), adding the extra cost per bismuth shell might not be that outrageous.
The big difference between the laws in Scotland and England is that in England it is what you shoot at which determines if non-toxic loads are stipulated i.e. ducks and geese no matter where they are shot. In Scotland it is where you shoot that is important, i.e. over or near any wet lands. It doesn't matter whether you are shooting ducks, pheasants or grouse if you are shooting over wetlands you must use non-tox loads.
There are a couple of good links in this BASC site under Scotland which describes the Scottish law:
http://basc.org.uk/lead/It is interesting to note that at least up to 2011 no one had been convicted under the lead ban in Scotland:
"Question S4W-02583 - Elaine Murray ( Dumfriesshire ) (Scottish Labour ) (Date Lodged 08/09/2011 ) :To ask the Scottish Executive how many convictions there have been under regulation 5 of The Environmental Protection (Restriction on Use of Lead Shot) (Scotland) (No. 2) Regulations 2004.
Answered by Stewart Stevenson ( 21/09/2011 ):There have been no convictions under regulation 5 of The Environmental Protection (Restriction on Use of Lead Shot) (Scotland) (No. 2) Regulations 2004".
http://tinyurl.com/o4gtj2j