ok you shooters.
since i dont have a m21, i need to hear some inputs on how they balance and swing.
as many know, im a clay shooter.
at my range we shoot standard skeet and trap, but occasionally have vintage skeet and vintage trap.
some games we premount and some we are at the ready.
my question is being 6-2, what do you find to be a better combo of gun options?
pads? no pads.
ribs. no ribs.
sst. no sst.
btfa. no btfa.
i know ws1 and ws2 were the choice for many , but those chokes were used back in the day with paper wad cards and not plastic wads.
do you have any favorite 'fixed' choke choices?

please share all your inputs and remember, i bring many here to read your comments. thank you for sharing.

I shot my 21 at ducks last week. It has 30 inch barrels and is stocked to my requirements. We shot the morning flight of woodies and I found the gun a bit slow compaired to my 390. The price of the bismuth shells is a bit pushy. I had fun, would have done better in a blind with the 21 but not many ducks in LA with temps in the 80's. For rough hunting I think the black plastic makes a lot of sense.

bill

I find the dynamics of the 21s to be excellent, similar to how I feel about Perazzis. Weight between the hands with a relatively heavy receiver, well struck and light weight barrels.

I distinctly dislike vent or raised ribs on any guns, especially side by sides. I would get the matted rib (mine was a 12 gauge matted rib skeet gun).

Also, I sense you are considering ordering a new gun. If that's the case, I'd consider getting your dimensions pretty well set with a good fitter over some time (not a one or two hour "fitting").

I tend toward longish barrels, and I'm nowhere near as tall as you. My own observation as a long time observer and shooting instructor is that most folks shoot guns shorter than they should, but that's dependent upon alot of things that can't be prescribed without direct one on one interaction. Consider 30" barrels, and also consider more difference in chokes than only one step (such as WS1 and Mod or IM), unless you are a serious skeet shooter. Another factor is whether you will use this gun exclusively for target shooting, or a mixture of game and targets.

I also like heel and toe plates, or a skeleton butt plate; I think a pad on these guns is like lipstick on a pig.

In the Model 21, I'd consider either the 12 gauge or the 16, as these tend to feel much better to me than the 20s (which seem a little dead in my hands, compared with these). These guns are heavier than they need to be, for game guns, as their strength lies in the massive action and long water table.

In terms of placing a special order, I'd be very careful, as sometimes the custom route can be very disappointing if the maker and customer aren't in 100% communication. I believe I would be patient, watch the used market for something that comes close to my requirements and buy a genuine Winchester.

thanks for the inputs.
no, i think its going to be a used one. i had my eye on some zero cast mc stocked 30" f/f trap grade trap guns. or was it skeet grade trap guns. i get lost in all those choices.
it was one of those.
seems bonified trap guns came with pads already on. it may be hard to find one without one.

the other thing is those 2 bbl sets may be nice, but it seems you cant have best of both worlds. its either a proper skeet gun or a trap gun only half the time.

Nothing wrong with a nicely fitted recoil pad. It protects the butt and helps to guard against it slipping or sliding. I lik'em, myself.

Interesting analogy about a recoil pad on a 21 being "like lipstick on a pig". I guess if you have a pig, "Maybelline" may be a blessing. Note, I was not the one referring to a 21 as a pig. Others have, at times, mentioned that pig as having been on the end of a shovel, but again, not I.

SRH

I've had three gauges of 21's. I found the 16 to be the best gun to both carry and shoot but factory shells were less available many years ago. My 12 always felt heavy but it did absorb recoil well. My 20 was the lightest, which should have made it fun to shoot and carry but never found a non tox load to shoot well for ducks and geese. Given other choices they went down the road. Like others here some guns I wish I never sold and others I never wish I'd bought.

Here's a 1948 20 gauge Skeet, 2 barrel set.
26" WS1/WS2 and a 30" Full/Full
I went straight Skeet with the 26's and straight Continental Trap same day with the 30's.

nice.
im not sure what the term is for types of the sighting plains on top.
i know you have matt, solid, and vent....but which ones have those dished tops?
i dont know what they are called. curved? or?

What is "Swamped" Alex.

swamped??

Yep. Here's one of many results of Google search on "swamped rib":

http://www.hallowellco.com/swamped_rib%20definition.htm

"Swamped Rib - A minimalist, smooth, concave, practically hidden, top rib on a side-by-side gun that connects the two barrels together, but provides no obvious extra aid to pointing---leaving the whole silhouette of the barrels themselves as the shooter's frame of reference."

Good reference. I'd say you'd know when you see one!

i always thought a rib in itself was an aid to align beads just prior to swithcing focus to the target.
yet all thru history, i see makers selling the rib as an aiming tool.
i/e: the browning recessed rib and broadway rib.

Bobski:

I'm 5'6", so this may not be of much help. I've owned and shot two different Model 21s, both double trigger (which I prefer on a sxs), splinter forend guns, 28 inch barrels, one with extractors and one with ejectors. Both were 14-1/4 inches over a Winchester butt plate, which I think was the standard factory LOP. Both weighed less than 7-1/4 pounds, which is light for a 12 gauge Model 21.

I suspect both would have been too short for you, given your height, so you may need to add a pad regardless of the setup you find. If you want a true field gun that can double as a target gun, either of these would work fine. In addition, you will find that the double trigger/splinter configuration sells at a discount to the standard Model 21 with single trigger/beavertail, which for me was a nice bonus.

shame the new generation doesnt understand that dt's are a lot easier than screwing in chokes.
all you do is move your finger and you get a choke change.

Bob, Have a 20 ga DT ejector skeet 21; it is the grail in grouse/WC cover. Mostly shot 12 and 20 ga SST guns. The 21 SST is good, not perfect, and better than many others. BTFE, yes, for a mostly target gun. Never saw any difference in my scores straight vs PG.....shot my first 100 with a 26" 12 ga straight grip.

Field. Back in the '80s-'90s took truckloads of scratch birds with them. Most 21 skeets are game gun fast, if heavy. The heavy part is not so much a liability IMO. In my hands sub-6#ers are nice to carry, not so nice to make hits with. And on a windy day would much rather have a tight-choked M-12.

Have used 21s with pads and w/checkered butts. The only buttplate I did not like was a steel skeleton. Too much slippage, range or field.

Prefer a solid rib for a mostly field 21. My VR 20 feels like a tank, but maybe that's what you want in a dedicated range gun.

Never owned a 21 Trap, but shot a couple. They are simply wonderful.

JMO, but LOP is the most over-fretted stock dimension. Have done just fine with 13.5" to 14.75" skeets (am 5'9").

Can't answer the chokes question without knowing intended use. Will say a 12/16/20 WS2 works on birds to a full 40 yds assuming premium shells.

26" bbls are not what I'd want for NSCA, but still work well on a skeet range.

all inputs are certainly enjoyed. its good to be back after being gone so long.

I've got a couple of 21's. The 20 gauge is a two barrel set. 26"IC/Mod and 30" F/M. In this case the gun is set up as a field gun. IMHO, to attempt to have both a Skeet Gun and a Trap gun with two sets of barrels isn't optimum, because the two games require different stock dimensions to fit the game

excatly, and if i had a choice, id go with a bonified skeet gun with x-tra trap bbls and shootflat, then to have to use a trap gun that shot high and swung slower.

You are starting down a long and slippery slope which will become expensive as you acquire M21's.
No one M21 will suffice for everything you have listed.
For Skeet, there is the M21 in 'Skeet' that comes with 26" or later 28" barrels.
For Trap, you have the Trap model.
Do not confuse these with the early Skeet and Trap Grade guns.
My 16 gauge 26" Skeet Grade had no pad and that was Factory standard.
I would have a pad as I got beat up with it. Swing was great and also was a great upland game gun.
My 32" 12 gauge VR Shadow Line Cheekpiece was built as a Live Pigeon gun, I believe but was a great double for Trap or Sporting Clays. Altough it did have a Hession rather than a Trap forend(Shorter).
Ws1 and Ws2 will still do well on Skeet.
But the majority of these guns are well used and who knows what mods were made.
You need a Pro Bore Gauge to measure constrictions to insure it's original or you should pay less.
Why not just order what you want from CSMC?-Dick

I have a 21 16 gauge skeet and a 20 gauge field and they are good shooters. Bobby

good.. as in pattern well, swing well, balance well?

My 20 gauge Mod. 21 Skeet is a custom gun by Roy Vail. It is a 26 inch, pistol grip, single trigger gun with a beavertail forend, and the chokes are WS 1 and WS 2. The gun weighs 6 pds. 11 ozs. and the LOP is 13 1/2 inches to a checkered butt. I've had lighter 20 gauges, but prefer the Mod 21 because most of my 12 gauge guns are in the 6 1/2 to 7 pound range, and when I switch guns and gauges, I like the fact that the the similar weight helps my shooting.

Here's a set of "working" Skeet guns.
12 gauge WS1/WS2
16 gauge WS1/WS2
20 gauge IC/WS2 (Skeet In / Skeet Out)

"Why not just order what you want from CSMC?" Personally, I don't think the CSMC replicas will ever attain anywhere near the collector value of an original Winchester Model 21. I would never consider a CSMC replica as an investment grade gun. Only if I could buy one for a MUCH cheaper price than an original, would I ever consider one. However, that is unlikely because CSMC has priced their replicas in the stratosphere.

i like kicking tires on old cars.
not new cars made to look like old cars.

Bobski
Do you hunt?
What do you use if you do?
I like looking at your guns
Happy New Year
Mike

I've heard this crap 'ad nauseam'.
The Model 21 being currently produced by CSMC is as much if not more a Winchester Model 21 than a C7 Corvette is a replica!
Whose discussing investments?
If you consider everything in life that you purchase an 'investment', so be it, but I purchase what I want in life and use it.
I'm fed up with 'experts', 'collectors' and whatever, pronouncing that it ain't a collectable or worth what I paid for it!
I drive new Porsche's because they are so much better than older models, that there is not even any comparison possible!
CSMC Model 21's are as good if not better than any Winchster Model 21 ever made.
The only area for discussion is engravers because certain engraver's have passed but there are new engraver's just as talented to be had.
And you can get a 'Baby' frame Model 21 in a weight suitable for a light upland gun, that Winchester never made.
I'll put my CSMC 'Baby Frame' 28 gauge Grand American up against ANY Winchester Model 21 ever made.
The price when compared to any bespoke gun anywhere in the world today is actually comparable and in a few cases actually looks reasonable.
So when someone mentions CSMC and Winchester Model 21, let's lose this attitude!
So if you want what you want, order a CSMC.
If you want what the 'experts; will tell you to want, find a Winchester Model 21 that is just right for you.-
Richard
BTW I have a CSMC bespoke Fox 16 gauge DE Special that's better made and engraved than ANY Fox DE I have ever had in my hands.

I got tired of 'kicking tires on old cars' about 20 years ago.
I got tired of individuals telling me what to like.
I got tired of individuals trying to sell me old junk.
I decided to have what I wanted made for me, new.
So, other than my initial Post in this Thread, I can't help you anymore.-Richard

I will second that, in matters of taste there can be no dispute. Personal preference is just that.

Haha there Dick. We are all entitled to our opinion just like you. By the way, the C7 Corvette is made by General Motors, so it is not a replica. The CSMC Model 21 is made by Connecticut Shotgun and not Winchester, and is therefore a replica. And, by the tone of your condescending statement and defense of CSMC, I'm sure you paid BIG money for one their high dollar and overpriced replicas.

fyi...i like old new haven winchesters knowing that my uncle and friends most likely or maybe touched them at least once during construction. my uncle worked in the finishing dept. i like knowing a gun was made by family members and friends i knew and that it was made in my hometown area.
maybe thats why i like shooting high standards too.
i was a member of the seymour fish and game club for over 27 years. many old winchester employees shot there along with the now defunct bethany winchester club, across the street from my uncles farm.
the value of winchesters is more than function and quality to me. its more a personal thing.
someday i will own a m21. even if it is refered to as one step up from a 311.

"The Model 21 being currently produced by CSMC is as much if not more a Winchester Model 21 than a C7 Corvette is a replica!"

As noted, the C7 vette is made by Chevrolet, who also made the C1-C6 vette. The CSMC M21's are made by Winchester. Is that really a hard concept to grasp?

As for recoil pads.....they're just yucky. If a man can't take the recoil of the gun he's shooting...he needs to try a lighter gauge or maybe even taking up needlework.

"The CSMC M21's are made by Winchester"......Huh???? You lost me on that one?????

galazans ruined their repro pad. they say its the same as early dark red ones, but it not. i called them out on it and they told me they have a chinese contract to make them....and they come out red/orange.
if i wanted to make them red again, i was told to use varnish.
not this fool.

galazans bought all of winchesters remaining custom shop stock of spare parts.
parts made by winchester.
assembled by csm.

Over a decade ago I was asked to evaluate a 16 ga M-21 field. Brought my bore gauge and went over every nook. Original, sure, but what a unappealing 21. Finish to fitting to inletting - nothing to hold a candle to most any CSMC....or even to a prewar/transition gun.

It's not just 21s, or even just Winchester shotguns. Most late pre-64 models leave alot to be desired prep and finish-wise. This does not mean they are less valuable to a collector. Most VR M-42s are similarly afflicted, but they bring big coin. And why not? Collecting is mostly about condition and rarity.

About a year ago, Poulins auctioned a bunch of 42s. There were five superb post-market engraved guns. Not one went much within $2.5k less than a late postwar SR skeet gun that was as much a dog as that 16 ga 21. Lousy metal prep, mediocre inletting, but - yes - high original condition.

Nobody was wrong.

I don't get arguments such as we are seeing here. If you are a collector, you prioritize collectibility. If you are a shooter, you prioritize other things. The mistakes are made by collectors who cannot recognize original condition, and by shooters who desire their bespoke guns be appreciated by collectors.

Parker Bros. shotguns not made in Connecticut are not Parkers?
Foxes not made in Philadelphia are not Foxes?
CSMC doesn't build "Winchesters", they do however build Model 21's

Sorry Buzz but you sound like "sour grapes" to me.
I don't recall anyone asking YOU to buy THEM a gun.
Perhaps if you trade in your baseball cards, cash in your S&H Green stamps,
have a bake sale and conduct a car wash you too could have some of that "BIG money".
Until such a time, maybe you could lighten up a bit on those who choose to spend THEIR hard earned money as THEY see fit.

I hope I have this right, leaky memory and all. If someone knows otherwise, please correct me.

Before CSMC began building their M-21, they first made Winchester branded M-21s under license from Winchester. As I understand it, the license limited CSMC to building only the highest grade Win. 21s, and Tony G. introduced the CSMC M-21 to build all grades and reach a wider market. I think CSMC is still licensed to build the Winchester branded M-21 in Grand American grade.

I believe they also are still licensed by Winchester as the authorized Win. M-21 custom shop and service center. About a dozen years ago they did some custom work on my 16 ga. M-21 and sent a report of the work to Cody to update their records for my gun.

Jay

I believe you are wrong re the license. Ask Paulene Muerelle. She worked at Winchester. Personally, I could give a hoot how you guys spend your money. If you read my earlier post I said personally I would not do it. And like you, I am entitled to my opinion and I said before I wouldn't even buy a box of shotgun shells from CSMC. I meant it then and I mean it now, personally.

As I understand it, if one wanted their CSMC built M21 to say "Winchester" on it there was a rather large copyright fee ( or whatever it is called ) that had to be paid to the Winchester people. At the time one could get a CSMC M21 for say $10,000 and one saying Winchester on it for $50,000. I hasten to add that I certainly may be incorrect about this.

Buzz, I've previously read what Pauline's said, but CSMC's statements about their license rights and info in their catalogs persuade me that the crux of what I wrote is right -- just unsure of remembering details or if it's current. I have the Cody info for the Winchester-authorized work done on my 21 that was provided to them by CSMC.

I realize she left there with a lot of records, but there's no reason to expect a Winchester engraver would be privy to negotiations and details of the agreement between Winchester and CSMC.

I've said nothing about relative quality or value, buying or not, leave me out of your argument with "you guys".

Jay

i for one regardless of what anyone says...thinks that new o&u 21 idea is pretty slick.

Not sure of the terminology either, falls into the area of licensing fees and royalties.

Thank you very much!
I've been a member of this forum for a long time, spent a lot of time and money learning Winchester & CSMC Model 21's as well as Superposed and a few other brands.
I put my money where my mouth is. I can't just afford to throw my money it away.
In my intial response all I Posted was to consider a CSMC Model 21.
What ticked me off was the standard crap about CSMC and their Model 21's which has no bearing on the original query.
That's why my Post was so vitriolic.
If we can just stop these standard 'knee jerk' Posts whenever CSMC is invoked, I will enjoy this forum again.
I understand the thinking of some about 'replicas. but don't agree and don'tt wish to have to read this stuff every time CSMC in mentioned.-Richard

I called OLIN many years ago and spoke to the individual in charge of Licensing the Winchester Brand and confirmed what Gunflint Charlie Posted in this Thread. Posted.
There are also many Winchester branded Model 21's made by CSMC on the market.
The Winchester Grand Royal sets were also made by CSMC.
I know Pauline very well from my Forum, she is a good source of knowledge about what went on at the end. But the Licensing information I obtained directly from OLIN is fact. I suspect since FN now sells Winchester's, that they have the same License for the Winchester brand from Olin.
Yes, you are entitled to your opinion but not to broadcast it every time CSMC appears in print without having to read rebuttals. so if you stop your diatribe against CSMC, I won't rebut!-Richard.

You are almost correct, I tried to have an individual order from CSMC licensed to carry the Winchester brand. Tony told me the only license he had at that time was for the Grand Royal which was $50k at that time. A standard CSMC was $10,000 but it would be equivalent to A Winchester Custom Shop 'Custom Grade'.
I passed on the Grand Royal and instead chose a Baby frame Grand American 30" which because of the 5# 13oz weight in 28 gauge, i like much better for actual hunting.-Richard

I you go to the OLIN website,
http://www.olin.com
You will see a tab for Winchester http://www.winchester.com/Pages/Home.aspx and under that tab, a tab for Licensing http://www.winchester.com/Products/Pages/licensed-products.aspx which refers you to the Licensing of the Winchester brand for firearms. Winchester ammunition is still controlled by OLIN.
I don't know if CSMC still retains a Winchester License and it really doesn't matter anymore.-Richard

quality and skilled craftsmanship are all im concerned about these days.
if it balances like the old ones....i enjoy it.

For whatever it's worth, the latest Galazan's/CSMC catalog I've seen continues to list Win M-21 parts and gunsmithing services, and still states that CSMC is the Winchester authorized service center for the Winchester M-21. Of course this isn't evidence that they're still licensed to build new Winchester M-21s.

Jay

Bobski; I was at a trapshoot some 30 years ago in North Platte, NE, when a man with a lovingly held Model 21 with double triggers said to me "The Skeet Two Choke is great for Pheasants."
I don't know if he had both chokes that way, and I don't know if the double triggers were added later. I just didn't know much of anything about a Model 21 at the time. I just remember the incident because he struck me as the kind of guy who had shot a lot of birds and was talking from experience.
Sam Ogle, Lincoln, NE

Winchester SK-2 was about light modified in constriction (.015) for the older shells without shot cups. Light modified will reach out farther than you think. My experience with older model 21's with WS-1 & WS-2 chokes using today's modern shotshells is that is plenty of choke for upland hunting and most all sporting clays presentations and probably too tight for skeet.

i'll bet a full full then, is x-ful/x-full today with modern ammo.

I used a 16 gauge 26" Win M21 'Skeet' for a few decades for rabbits, pheasants and the like. The Sk1 and Sk2 chokes were more than adequate for any upland game. What it was not good for was waterfowl and HeviShot.
Swtiched to a CSMC RBL in 20 gauge for jump shooting ducks.
Had CSMC make me a 16 gauge Fox for most upland with barrels Tuff Coated for non-toxic shot if the need should ever arise.
Have a pair of Rem 332's for geese and ducks with HeviShot.
Never liked steel shot and bismuth is hard to find.
HeviShot outshoots anything, so I switched guns.
Times change. I change.
My hope is that lead will not be outlawed for upland game and for the Club I shoot at, but here in Wisconsin, it it's State land, you must shoot non-toxic shot!
I did shoot geese for a number of years with a Win M21 32" 'DUCK' using Kent #1 Tungsten-matrix 3" shells. Most 'Ducks' are choked F/F, so 50 yd shots were no problem. But HeviShot is better but not in a M21.-Richard