By way of background, I have been a member here for over a decade, although I haven't been hanging around quite as much as I used to.
I have been happily shooting my 12 ga Ugartechea Grade II for the past several years, and now I looking to get a 20 gauge SXS in the $4000-5000 range, possibly up to $6000. I strongly prefer new, but would also consider an excellent condition used gun.
My ideal gun would be a round body sidelock with hand engraving, but it seems that may be difficult in my price range. Unfortunately I recently missed an opportunity on a Griffin and Howe RBGG, so the hunt continues. I like the AYA No. 2 round action , but I don't see paying $6000 or more for a gun with machine engraving.
I have also been eyeing the AYA 4-25s at NECG, as well as Ugartechea Grade V. The latter is closer to goal, but I would rather have a high quality boxlock over a lower quality sidelock.
So, any suggestions or advice for me on where and what I should be looking at? Much appreciated.
Newlyn1,
I just purchased a gun very similar to what you are looking for.
It is a Garbi 101, 20ga, 28" barrels, leather covered pad etc. The gun was for sale approx 8 months and the price gradually came down to where I was comfortable.
It is used in excellent plus shape and hand engraved. The 101 engraving is one of my favorites and very elegant. Paid in the upper mid 3K for it. I always buy used, that way it already has a scratch or 2 and I'm not disgusted with myself when I put on a third.
Also you don't take the showroom, drive out "hit".
I must admit, I'm not a fan of the AYA #2 because of the lack of engraving symmetry around the cocking indicators on most that I have seen. Sold my #2 because it bothered me so bad.
Here is a link to the Garbi for reference
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100536735Hope this helps!!
I'd suggest haunting Gun Broker. There are ten to twenty really nice guns at a nice price come up every year. This one is, I think, over-priced but it's a good example of what one can find with a little patience:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=534441571
If I were looking for a 20ga in that price range, and if I weren't looking for something on the lighter side (6 1/4-6 1/2 pounds acceptable), I'd focus on Parker Reproductions. I don't think there's a sxs on the market, in that price range, that's as well made and offers as much as a Repro does.
If I were looking for a 20ga in that price range, and if I weren't looking for something on the lighter side (6 1/4-6 1/2 pounds acceptable), I'd focus on Parker Reproductions. I don't think there's a sxs on the market, in that price range, that's as well made and offers as much as a Repro does.
Good suggestion as well. There are a bunch of them over on GI. Even a DT with 28" barrels. Happy hunting!
This one is sold but I would look for some thing like this.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100646443
Check out the Parker Forum. If you are interested in a repo or a non-repo model and want to join the organization you can buy a gun from another member
Pgca.com
If it were me, I'd try to be as caught up as I could be on the five to eight thousand dollar market. I'd try to be patient and not give a second thought to missed opportunities, but be ready to pull the trigger when a good one gets your attention and shows up in the three to six thousand dollar range.
I wouldn't be too interested in new myself, it's just a preference. Too many forgettable guns in that price range in my mind. Completely uninteresting guns at one price, can become just right at another price.
Parker Repro is not hand engraved.
Parker Repro is not hand engraved.
I learned something new today. Thanks Eightbore.
Someone needs to make a DT O/U, badly.
BSS Sidelock is in that price range. Or look for an Aspen Outfitting Uggie.
Someone needs to make a DT O/U, badly.
Badly? What percent of the O/U market would buy it? 2 %?
SRH
Not a lot of those out there, but if you can find one for under $6,000--especially the late ones with Krupp barrels--that's a good buy. Hand engraved, case colors by Turnbull.
Thanks for the suggestions. The Parker Repro idea is on which I had not considered, but, while I have never held one, I am more drawn to lighter guns, and DTs is a must.
So, I am looking at a Griffin & Howe Arrieta online, which seems to be reasonably priced and in decent condition, except that the hand detachable thumb screw does not seem to be properly indexed. Instead of being roughly parallel to the barrels/action when tight, it sticks up at a 35-40 degree angle. Sort of looks like it may have been over-tightened, but I really don't know much about hand-detachable locks. Is it possible it was over-tightened? Is there a fix for that?
Also, any way to tell the age from the serial number?
It's more likely the thumb screw needs to be tightened to be indexed properly, however; it is possible that it was over tightened and simply needs to be turned back.
To date an Arrieta look at the four sequence number stamped into the water table and/or barrel flats.
Example: 57-03-205-07
*The 1st set of numbers (57) is code for the manufacturer.
*The 2nd set of numbers (03) is code for a shotgun.
*The 3rd set of numbers (205) is the number of the gun built in that particular year.
*The 4th set of numbers (07) is the year it was built.
The full serial number, in the above example, tells you that the gun was built by Arrieta, it's a shotgun and it was the 205th gun built in 2007.
Someone needs to make a DT O/U, badly.
Badly? What percent of the O/U market would buy it? 2 %?
SRH
*I want someone to make a DT O/U. Sorry about the verbiage, Stan.
A Caesar Guerini Woodlander with double triggers would be a dandy, and would fall into or below this price range.
An RBL of some iteration immediately comes to mind. Should that not quite suit your fancy then I would look in several other directions:
1) an SKB 100, stripped of both its wood and finish, then stocked to your liking and the metal w/possibly some minimal, but well executed engraving also finished to suit your taste. note: There are members here who can do that work & do it very well.
2) a BSS or any one of several iterations of Miroku's that can be given similar treatment as noted above. Early guns oft carried good hand engraving.
3) a Webley & Scott
4) a Flues Ithaca, [perhaps graded #1 or #1 & a half] restocked and refinished to suit you. They are neat lightweight, attractive and quite serviceable guns. Too oft overlooked, IMHO.
You will notice all are A&D variant BL's. All are also well proven as durable in the field.
I believe that a used RBL would do well for you. I have one that I've used heavily since the first year the Launch edition was introduced. I had to wait 9 months for it, but then I only paid $2500 for it at the time. I have never had any issues with it. My gun has a French Gray frame and double triggers that Galazan reversed to left hand use. And I had the stock bent to left hand cast on shortly after receiving it. I have ordered a true left hand gun to replace it, but were it not for the right hand opening top lever on the RBL, ordering the bespoke gun would not have been necessary. From what I see in the market, you could get a used RBL for around $3K and a new one for about $5K, depending on what you options are ordered. I would suggest a self opener if you order new.
Someone needs to make a DT O/U, badly.
Badly? What percent of the O/U market would buy it? 2 %?
SRH
*I want someone to make a DT O/U. Sorry about the verbiage, Stan.
A Caesar Guerini Woodlander with double triggers would be a dandy, and would fall into or below this price range.
Agreed. I wonder what price double trigger aficionados would pay for that option, if it were to be offered on a production O/U. I love double triggers, but I am perfectly okay with a good single trigger as well, and have no problem switching back and forth. So, I wouldn't pay much extra, but I believe there are those who would give a substantial sum extra to have this option.
SRH
Someone needs to make a DT O/U, badly.
Badly? What percent of the O/U market would buy it? 2 %?
SRH
*I want someone to make a DT O/U. Sorry about the verbiage, Stan.
A Caesar Guerini Woodlander with double triggers would be a dandy, and would fall into or below this price range.
Agreed. I wonder what price double trigger aficionados would pay for that option, if it were to be offered on a production O/U. I love double triggers, but I am perfectly okay with a good single trigger as well, and have no problem switching back and forth. So, I wouldn't pay much extra, but I believe there are those who would give a substantial sum extra to have this option.
SRH
Over and unders are ugly enough already, with double triggers they would be even uglier, if that's possible.
Someone needs to make a DT O/U, badly.
Badly? What percent of the O/U market would buy it? 2 %?
SRH
*I want someone to make a DT O/U. Sorry about the verbiage, Stan.
A Caesar Guerini Woodlander with double triggers would be a dandy, and would fall into or below this price range.
Agreed. I wonder what price double trigger aficionados would pay for that option, if it were to be offered on a production O/U. I love double triggers, but I am perfectly okay with a good single trigger as well, and have no problem switching back and forth. So, I wouldn't pay much extra, but I believe there are those who would give a substantial sum extra to have this option.
SRH
It's a simple enough mechanism, I think the price would be purely due to having to stock a couple extra parts. If a well established manufacturer offered it as an option on a field model, it might be enough of an incentive to go with, say, a Beretta over a Browning for people who are on the fence but like double triggers.
I have been happily shooting my 12 ga Ugartechea Grade II for the past several years, and now I looking to get a 20 gauge SXS in the $4000-5000 range, possibly up to $6000. I strongly prefer new, but would also consider an excellent condition used gun.
If you had such good luck with the Ugartechea get another one except in 20 gauge. Why tempt fate?
Here's a couple,
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100628126http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100593095
Thanks for the suggestions. The Parker Repro idea is on which I had not considered, but, while I have never held one, I am more drawn to lighter guns, and DTs is a must.
Repros were made with DT's. Not as common as ST's, but they're not really rare either. And since there were more Repros made in 20ga than any other gauge, you wouldn't really have a problem finding a DT version. Weight is certainly an issue if you shy away from a 20 that would likely average around 6 1/2 pounds.
Re DT OU's, Rich Cole will convert a Beretta for you--and I've seen posts from quite a few people who've had it done. But if you look around, you can certainly find Berettas (and other European OU's--Merkels almost certainly the most common) that came from the factory with DT's. When New England Arms was importing the FAIR (I. Rizzini) guns, DT's were offered as an option. A couple years back, I bought one that had all the options classic sxs lovers often prefer: Not only DT's, but also straight stock and solid rib. On a 28ga, no less. Everything but "proper" barrel orientation. I had a relatively brief flirtation with that gun, but found that an almost sxs still isn't a sxs.
Hm, I'll check that out.
I'll probably end up with a DT Merkel sxs, though. Something about the sight plane of a sxs just works better for me.
CSMC will make DT's for the A-10. You probably can't find one for under $6k, but if you want to drop the coin, you can have one.
Here is one that always catches my eye. Not sure if you are looking for something that takes specialty ammo though. RST, Polywad, hand loads etc..
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100625822
I think I would buy that gun. It is one nice Francotte.
Eightbore...did you mean this one I put up this am ?,the post seemed to evaporate
looks like a high condition...it is about $4250
www.gunsamerica.com/954733074/FRANCOTTE-A-F-IMPORT-MODEL-20-SIDEPLATE-BOXLOCK-12GA.htm
I have (or had) DT OUs from Guerini, CSMC and Beretta (Cole)
PM sent
So, I am looking at a Griffin & Howe Arrieta online, which seems to be reasonably priced and in decent condition, except that the hand detachable thumb screw does not seem to be properly indexed.
Newlyn1,
Do you have a link your willing to share? I'd like to see it.
Check out the RBL also look at the Aya53E
Good luck in your search
So, I am looking at a Griffin & Howe Arrieta online, which seems to be reasonably priced and in decent condition, except that the hand detachable thumb screw does not seem to be properly indexed.
Newlyn1,
Do you have a link your willing to share? I'd like to see it.
If I did this correctly (which is a big if),a picture of the thumb screw should show up... [img]
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B96tMn8CAPu-R1N1REQ2NHJseG8/view?pref=2&pli=1[/img]
Ok, maybe just the link showed up, but I think it will work for you.
Link works OK. Hand-detach lever could be over-tightened . . .or maybe under-tightened and just needs a little nudge.
I'm not a sidelock expert, but it doesn't take much force to index a screw thru that short arc with a lever. If there is any spring in the sidelock plate, it may have just been slightly over tightened and needs to be backed off. If it is a big concern, it would probably make a good thread question by itself and get a number of the smiths to comment. I'd be curious in their response and it may put your mind at ease.
Doesn't look like there is any carry wear in front of the trigger guard in that pic. Like you, the round body is my preference.
We would need to see a pic of the right side of the action with the thumb lever left in this exact same position to see the protrusion of the pin on the right side to determine if it's over or under tightened. At this point, I don't see an issue at all--just needs to be either backed off a smidgen or given 7/8 of a turn to tighten it.
As recommended, I started the thumb screw issue as its own thread and also posted a pic of the other side of the action.
That's a good price. 20's do show up on occasion for less than $4K, but most with more wear than that one shows.
Franc Otte, no, the Francotte link that you posted is not the one I referred to. The link you posted was for a 12 gauge, not what the original poster was asking about. The Francotte I was referring to "I would buy that Francotte" is in a link right before the post that included my comment. Thanks for asking, though.
Sorry lads, must have not had my coffee , got muddled, but that 12bore looks pretty sweet all the same
franc
[quote=treblig1958
Over and unders are ugly enough already, with double triggers they would be even uglier, if that's possible. [/quote]
Nonsense:
Beautiful guns Doverham. Never knew that Henry Atkin made an over and under.
I would take a hard look at a B Rizzini SxS. These are attractive, well made guns in your price range.
http://www.rizziniusa.com/products/hunter-models/br-550-round-bodyRegards,
Jeff
Thanks Treblig - I wish the Atkin was mine. I understand it is very rare.
Saw a couple of those in a Scheels store not long ago. They do look like very nice guns.
Saw a couple of those in a Scheels store not long ago. They do look like very nice guns.
William Larken Moore has their own version of that gun that's pretty as well. I can't find solid user opinions about it, though.
Newlyn,
Here is a good looking, long LOP AYA #2 deluxe. Not an RA but....
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100568046
The AYA 53 was the top of the line before the #1 and #2 were introduced. Side clips, hidden third bite, disc set strikers, gold washed locks and a little more heft than the #2. Still made but at a premium.
This one has 14" of wood so could be lengthened with a pad. Only downside to me is beavertail forend (shown in pics, not a splinter as advertised). A good stock maker could convert it to a true splinter if it bothered you.
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-fo...un_id=100649423I have a 16 gauge 53 and it seems to find its way out of the safe far more often than its peers!
I have recently become a Francotte fan! I would give it a shot but if you are like me I love anything English but you have to be patient.....you can find a deal!!!!not so much on Guns International.Seems like a mostly of dealers.$$$$$$$$