I just ran across a nice example of a Flues Model in 20-gauge. Very good weight (5 3/4 lbs) and dimensions (14 1/4 LOP to the plate, 28-tubes), it even has some very attractive light engraving. I've just not seen many 20s, and most (if not all) that I have run across have been badly used-up. The price tag seemed shockingly inexpensive. Is there something about the Flues guns that I don't know about? I would assume that because of it's rather petite nature, that lower pressure/lower velocity shells would be good policy. Is there something else?

You got the scoop. They are sweet handling guns. IMO, they do not deserve the reputation they have acquired.

If the gun is sound and fits you, go for it. I love them. Especially the 20 with 28" barrels. Feed it LP ammo and you will be in high cotton.

Enjoy!

The gun should have 2 1/2" (or slightly shorter) chambers. If not, measure wall thickness very carefully at the end of the chambers and into the forcing cones.

Researcher posted a helpful summary of Flues grades here
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=428929#Post428929

You know, before my 'education' If it had steel barrels, I shot whatever I had. Never had a problem.

When I was a boy my dad had a field grade 12ga with "smokeless powder steel" barrels that digested at least 3 boxes of Remington high brass heavy field load 6's every year for decades without a hickup. That gun kicked HARD but it is still tight to this day.

At 15 years old, a buddy and I were hunting ducks on the creek. when I fired the Flues, both barrels went off at what seemed like the same time. Thought it had blown up, but it turned out to be a broken trigger spring.

Years later, I had it refurbished. The smith showed me a crack in the receiver on the water table in the thin section on the right side. Welded it up and recase colored it. Still shooting it today although it gets a steady diet of <6k 1 oz loads now.
Unknowingly shot it a number of years after it doubled with the cracked receiver. Assuming that's what cracked it.

Took a lickin and kept on tickin.

12ga field Flues
12ga 1S Flues
16ga 1S 30" Krupp Flues
20ga 1-1/2 damascus Flues
28ga gr2 Flues

Wonderful little doubles. Mine has 30" bbls but is a tad on the heavy side I think, 6lbs 6oz.

Thanks folks! It's always a treat to pick up an American gun that isn't big and tanky. My upland hunting almost always involves lots of walking and a gun at (or slightly under) 6lbs is always the better choice. The few American guns that seem to regularly achieve this surprisingly uncommon weigh-point are almost always priced into the stratosphere (i.e., graded Parkers, Lefevers, and Foxes). The few exceptions I've encountered are the early sub-gauge Sterlingworths and now this little Flues. Always fun to learn something new. I may go back and pay this gun another visit.

When I use to live near KTP, they always a Flues or two kicking around on the gun racks. Found them light and swift, and pointed well. Never handled one with 30" or 32" barrels, but I feel they point better then they swing. Thusly a good grouse gun IMO.

Statement about Ithaca Flues made in Ebonics:



English Translation of the statement above:

When I used to live near KTP, there was always a Flues or two kicking around on the gun racks.

Wow. I'm never surprised that you flunked out of college nca225. The question is, how in hell did you ever get in?

Those cracks do show up on Flues models, especially the very light 20's. Used to be a contributor here, Greg Tag, who was keeping track of Flues failures. You do want to shoot light loads (low pressure, light shot charge, moderate velocity) in the light 20's. As I recall, on at least a couple of those "failures", the owner had been shooting promotional loads from one of the big box stores. Those shells aren't heavy in terms of shot charge, but they make them to generate enough recoil to operate autoloaders that may get cleaned once a decade or so. Better to go with light reloads or something like RST's. And if the gun has 2 1/2" chambers and you're reloading 2 3/4" hulls, remember to back off even more on pressure. Per Sherman Bell in Double Gun Journal, although the pressure increase as a result of the longer hull is usually only a few hundred psi, it can be more than 1,000 psi. So add in more of a safety cushion.

It wasn't just the light weight smallbores that cracked as I previously thought --

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=428464

Did any of the American guns ever use a swamped rib? This one has a raised rib, much like what I would expect to see on a Smith. Not a complaint, mind you, but it definitely adds weight and mass out front. I almost never see one on an English gun.

Lloyd, here's one on a fairly early pivot lever Lefever. Later, Dan Lefever built a rib matting machine and guns thereafter had a flat top rib.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=538482461

The existing, but incomplete, Hunter Arms records document only 5 swamp rib guns: an Eagle and a set of Crown grades in 12, 16, 20, and 410 that remain as a set.

Crown



Eagle

I guess that answers my question about ribs. Thank you Dr. Drew. Another question...if a Flues is going to crack, where might that be on the action? I'd guess it would be on the radius from the standing breach to the water table. Am I close?

Lloyd,
If you remove the barrels and look in the slot where the lug goes, there is a thin section (maybe .060-.080 thick) under the water table on each side. That is where my 12ga cracked. I have also heard of cracks at the watertable/breach face intersection. When I buy Flues guns, those are the places I look at closest.
Of all the Flues guns that I have had and looked at over the years, the 12ga was the only one I have personally seen with a crack. That 12 was rode hard and sustained trauma.

I passed on a nice 30" 20ga the other day. Still kicking myself. Guess ya can't do all the deals.

Hope that helps,
Bill

The "swamped ribs" on the Smiths pictured by Drew are not what I understand true swamped ribs to be like. Well, the breech end of the rib isn't, anyway. That raised portion at the rear makes it somewhat of a hybrid, IMO.

The term "swamped rib" is interesting to me, in and of itself. The earliest use of "swamped", that I know of, is concerning muzzleloading rifle barrels. A swamped rifle barrel is an octagonal barrel that decreases in diameter from the breech to a point somewhere around two-thirds to three-fourths of the way to the muzzle, then increases in diameter as it continues, all the way to the muzzle. It was said to have enhanced carrying, and offhand shooting, characteristics. What is called "swamped" shotgun ribs don't necessarily do that. Strange.

SRH

Mr. Johnson: thank you for that.

Good thing that action wasn't made out of Damascus steel Drew. It probably would have unwound, fragmented, and killed everyone within a 50 yard radius.

Lloyd,
Here is a pic from 16 years ago.
20ga Flues, 26" Krupp barrels, 5lbs 9oz.
That one was like a magic wand.

I would say that your magic wand worked pretty well that day. Ok, I'm hooked. I should just break down and get a copy of Walt's book and spare you all the questions (I'll go ahead get a copy anyway, assuming I can find one). It would be nice to own an American double again for the uplands. The challenge as I see it is finding one with sufficient LOP and without too-much drop. I suppose finding an English grip is too much to ask for? Also, what's the scoop on Damascus guns? As light as the fluid steel guns? And....of course, where do the 16s fit in the Flues weight range?

Lloyd,
I can tell you that I have sold 2 16ga Flues in the last 2 years because of weight. My current 16 (1912) is a 30" gun and weights
6lbs 5oz. The 2 I sold were later guns. One was 6lbs 15oz and the other was 7lba 4oz. My point is that you need to ask the weight and be sure it fits your application. My damascus 20 is under 6lbs but I haven't weighed it yet. Being under 6lbs and 28" barrels, it is also a dream to handle.

I use a Galco leather butt on 14" guns to get the length out to 14-5/8 which works for me. The damascus gun has been restocked.
Read money pit.

Stan;
Some years ago I read a very interesting theory on those Swamped ML rifle barrels. As I recall it was in a publication by the National ML Rifle Association, don't recall its exact name.

Anyway the author explained the flats were put on by grinding. They were placed in a fixture which was tipped up at the muzzle end to give the taper & then pushed back & forth across the top of a large grinding wheel. It was thus a fairly long drawn out process as was much of ML rifle building in those days. His contention was that as the carriage moved back & forth grinding took place faster toward the center as more weight was applied there than near the ends where it was supported on one end. His theory was that when the breech end was ground to the desired dimension they simply quit grinding rather than take the time to continue for a perfect taper. thus he claimed the swamping was more or less accidental rather than intentional.

O

That's interesting, Miller. I don't recall ever reading that. Doesn't exactly make sense, though, to me. If that were the case the smaller diameter would be in the center portion of the barrel length, but they weren't. The smaller portion was much nearer the muzzle end. My understanding was that the final work on them all was done by draw filing anyway, not grinding. Many early longrifle builders didn't even have access to a grinding apparatus.

I do know from experience with them that it makes for a very elegant longrifle. I've never seen one on an English rifle, only American.

SRH

Well....had to trade in two good pump guns for this one. Hope it was worth it. Circa 1917 Field grade 20-gauge Flues, 28-inch tubes, acceptable dimensions & unmolested 2 1/2-inch chambers, 6lbs1.

Additional photography for ithaca1's review.

The Cockerel steel tubes are a wee-bit heavy, but undented and unmolested (original chokes and chambers).



Reminds me of so-many of the guns I grew up with. But...fairly petite for an American field grade.

I have it's twin, right down to the small gap between wood and frame at the top. Mine weighs about 5-9 but swings well.

I had a problem with opening after firing, the bent cocking lever thing, but fit a replacement and it's back in service. Good luck with yours.

Lloyd,
Good morning.
Heading out of town in a bit. Will be back tomorrow. We can compare Fluesies then. Yours looks nice. My Damascus barrels returned!! I'll bet most of that dent in the left panel will steam out.

Best,
Bill

I think the Ithacas are the most under-rated gun out there and just wonderful in a 20!

Mr. 21: That is a lovely gun! After looking this Field grade over more closely, it's pretty clear to me that the Graded guns got way-more time spent on them (as, I suppose, it should be). I'm assuming your Gun is a Grade 4? Is there a cut-off point where fit & finish markedly improves on these guns?

Thanks. That's actually 3 guns, two 4s and a 3. But to answer your question I think the 2s and up a considerably better fit. The F,1, and 1 1/2 are noticeably coarser.

This brand consistently delivers very good quality for price paid. I have seen knockabout grade 20ga extractor gun marked New Ithaca Double. It had good wood, nicely finished rib, wood checkering and matting on top of action to prevent glare. The price was well under $1000. No other classic American small-bore can come close in quality to price to that offering. Enjoy your new treasure.

Fired my Field Grade 20 the other day with some 2 1/2-inch English loads. The triggers seem a bit stiff & heavy to me (may just need a good cleaning?) and the extractor doesn't seem to lift the shells from the breech very far. I'm going measure the tubes very carefully (to see if I have any options for improving the handling) and then have the gun looked-over & serviced by a competent double-gun 'smith. If I can make a few improvements it will be a fine gun for the money. If not....

One other comment on the swamped ribs. My pivot lever 10 ga Lefever E grade #10,515 has a concave rib, but not a swamped one. There are really I believe 4 definitions to describe a rib shape, straight, swamped, flat & concave. Straight means it is straight from breech to muzzle, swamped means it drops down between the barrels between breech & muzzle. Flat & concave apply to the width cross section. Thus either a straight or swamped rib can be either flat or concave.

Remington Arms Co. used the terms "Flat Matted Rib" and "Hollow Rib" to describe the ribs on their Remington Hammerless Doubles up through the 1905-1906 catalogue. Early on, all the Remington Hammerless Doubles had the Flat Fatted Rib. In the 1902 Remington Arms Co. catalogue they begin offering "Hollow rib furnished to order" on the C-Grade and higher guns. Beginning with the first 1906 Remington Arms Co. catalogue they just say "matted rib" for the various K-grades and "concave rib, matted" for all the grades from A- to EEO-grade.



Hollow (Concave) Matted Rib left (1905 vintage CEO-Grade), Flat Matted Rib right (1895 vintage BE-Grade).

Lots of good info!

Nice to see a 4 page post that did not turn into a peeing contest!!

It wasn't for lack of effort.

If the gun fits this Flues is very good choice for someone on tight budget. In used field grade we see them for about same price as Nitro Special. The Ithaca is far better handling upland gun. The cost is less than gold standard of bargain game guns which around here is Ithaca-Sakaba 100, 200 or 280.

I have a soft spot for the Flues. A 16ga Field Grade was my first American classic. But I have trouble finding one that doesn't have too much drop.

A lot of them do have too-much drop. The good news here is that most of them can be bent to more usable dimensions. Most good stock benders can move a stock up to almost 1/2 inch, and generally that's enough to make a significant difference in fit.

Right now these are a bargain and good to own because low pressure ammo from outfits like RST can be sent to most peoples door. If democrats take control of the White House this may come to an end. If you live in Canada such shotgun can be purchased from distant buyer and send to your door.

How about the Ithaca-LeFever Nitro Specials. Way better than the Flues, and way cheaper. Any comments on this? RWTF

Certainly stronger than the Flues guns, but also much heavier, and they seem to command comperable prices in the field grade range.

Agree- also strange- my Steven Fijestad Blue Book shows the Flues and the NID Ithacas equally- valued as per grade, gauge and options premiums- Why so? The LeFever Nitro Specials and A grades and the NID series are a way better built and designed doublegun than the older Emil Flues series--

The Flues guns are a bit more refined and have better weight and balance?

Yep, Flues have much better lines. The NID's I've handled were "clunky". They would make a great stationary dove gun though.

As far as Blue Book values are concerned, I think once you start getting into graded guns and options the strength of the action really doesn't matter. It's all about the engraving, the finish quality, these guns probably wouldn't be shot much anyway by most buyers, it's about collectabilty.

I saw a VG Flues Grade 5 SBT go at auction this weekend for $2700. Nice wood, great engraving...

I disagree there. The Nitro Special is not a better gun but the NID may be as it was built for the modern heavier loadings. But in doing so the NID does not have the handling and balance of the Flues.

My buddy has a NS in 20ga with 28" barrels. I reshaped the stock into a straight grip, recheckered it and opened the right barrel to IC for him. Handles nicely. He feeds it a steady diet of AA's. Deadly on quail and chuckar.

Still not as nice as a Flues though.

I love my Flues guns but broke tradition and purchased a 16ga Phili Fox Sterlingworth recently. It a treat to carry.

Well....the little Flusie works all right. I used some different (2/3-inch!) shells in it today (super lightweight Fiocchi Target 3/4-ounce stuff) and after putting a cinch-on pad to gain a little LOP, I went for a short walk with the dog out at the local club. Busted some clays to make sure everything was copacetic (the Fiocchi Target loads were much softer than the 2 1/2-inch Gamebores I used to function-check it last week. They really belted me!) and then went looking for "leftovers". We had the place all to ourselves today, as it was quite blustery and fairly cold. One bird was foolish enough to allow us to get close, and then flew in a shootable direction (most try to head back to the pen).



The gun is surprisingly adapted for a right-handed shooter, from the noticeable cast-on, to the right-handed trigger-set, to even a little toe twist. If I'm going to adapt it to a more-neutral setting for myself (& my son) I'm going to have a do a fair amount of work. Later American guns simply do not have these nice little details, especially the Field Grade versions.