Can anybody here give me an estimate of the going current value of a 12 GA. Model 21 Skeet Model in solid 99% original condition?
THANKS

H

Barrel length? Single/Double Triggers? Butt Treatment?

Photos would sure help.

A skeet gun in 99% condition would be odd and rare. It was gun someone purchased to shoot; not leave in the closet. Of course skeet and trap guns tend to be in better exterior condition than their field gun cousins. They tend to be worn mechanically even when looking pretty good on the outside. With that said I would look hard for signs of restoration on a "99%" skeet gun. Also sadly I would say the value is not what it was just 5 or 6 years ago even in high condition.

Of course that is just this one guys opinion.

According to Schwing, the SKEET Grade was introduced in 1936.
I'd like to see pictures too.

Barrel length, configuration??

Winchester was making and heavily advertising Model 21 Skeet Guns by 1932. Here is the page from the 1933 pocket catalogue --



In the early years the Skeet Gun was offered in Tournament, Trap and Custom Built Grades. For 1936, the term Tournament disappeared and it became Standard Grade. From the 1938 Winchester pocket catalogue --





By 1940, the Trap Grade was gone and it was just the Model 21 Skeet Gun Standard Grade. By 1946 it was the Model 21 Skeet Gun. There never was a Model 21 Skeet Grade.

Researcher

I really don't understand all of the "grades" of 21's but I assume that your reference above is for skeet guns marked Trap??

jlb

Tournament skeet grades were made around that time for a couple of years and I have a couple. Bobby

I'm confused.
Schwing page 78 & 79 refers to SKEET Grade
and my 1948 20 gauge 2 barrel set has the same reference stamped on the floorplate...SKEET

The table of contents chapters in the Schwing book for "Barrels and Ribs" (page 78) and for "Stocks and Forearms" (page 108) both reference the "Skeet Grade" -- as distinct from "Tournament Grade".

Jay

mY M 21 12 ga with SK 1 and SK 2 chokes
is stamped Skeet
Trap
on the floorplate

Researcher has it right there never was a skeet grade. It was a type of gun. Before 1940 you could get a standard skeet, a tournament grade, a trap grade and a custom built grade. After 1940 the trap and custom were discontinued, the tournament had been dropped in 1936.In 1940 the deluxe grade replaced the trap grade and the custom grade. During the 1940's and 50's trap, skeet, duck and field guns were types of guns and could be had in the deluxe grade also. It was discontinued in 1950 and the custom grade was reintroduced. As far as Ned's book goes its wonderful but it is wrong when it calls skeet and duck as a grade,
they were types. AWC

Compare to the confusion created by the loose designation of the 2nd version of the Ithaca NID as a "star grade". Not a grade at all, just a version of the same model gun...Geo

My 16 ga. Model 21, #12,4xx is marked Skeet on the trigger plate.

Those guns stamped SKEET on the trigger plate are Model 21 Skeet Guns in Tournament Grade 1932 to 1935 or Standard Grade 1936-onwards. Those stamped SKEET over TRAP are Skeet Guns made in Trap Grade during the 1930s.

It is just the terminology Winchester used. They didn't call it a Skeet Grade. It was a Skeet Gun.

I'm still confused.
What purpose was then served by stamping SKEET on the floorplate like they did Tournament or Trap?

To let you know it is a "Skeet Gun". Trap Grade, Deluxe Grade, Custom Built Grade, all had embellishments of finish and checkering pattern above the field grade. Skeet, Duck, and Field guns were of similar finish. Some better than others, but similar.

I'm going from memory here but I believe I've seen guns marked SKEET with field or tighter chokes??

Why don't we ask gun "guru?" Steve Bodio- according to his book "Best Guns" the Model 21 came out in 1941- so all this wrangling about 1932 versus 1936 Skeet grading is BS-- go figure that!!

Researcher and eightbore:

Schwing deliberately refers to "Skeet Grade". Under "Skeet Grade" headings he devotes most of 3 pages to describing the grade's characteristic barrels and ribs, and 3 pages in another chapter to the grade's characteristic stocks and forearms. His table of contents lists the following grades: Standard Grade, Skeet Grade, Duck/Magnum Grade, Tournament Grade, and Trap Grade.

Quoting Schwing on page 108:

"Introduced earlier in the Tournament and Trap Grades as a sub-grade, 1936 was the first year for the Skeet Grade as a grade unto itself."

Am I right to understand you're saying he's confused and mistaken?

Jay

I think the companies already had their grade structures established by the time Skeet came along. Remington did the same thing. They introduced their Model 31 Skeet Gun pump, Model 32 Skeet Gun over-under and their "Sportsman" Skeet Gun autoloader. These could also be had in their custom shop D "Tournament" Grade, E "Expert" Grade and F "Premier" Grade.

At Winchester it was the same thing. They had their Model 97 and 12 in Standard, Tournament, Trap and Pigeon Grades. But for the Model 21 they went with Standard, Tournament, Trap and Custom Built Grades.

Schwing's statement that Skeet Grade changed in 1936 from a sub-grade to "a grade unto itself" is the only thing I've seen here that seems more than mere impression or opinion. Nothing here to persuade me that all his M-21 research led him to get something specific and basic like this wrong.

Jay

Sorry Guys I just got in. First I don't have pics but it is marked SKEET on the action bottom [no crazing whatsoever] 26 barrels WS1 AND WS2, Single trigger, ejectors, straight English Grip, Beavertail, checkered butt [all sharp]. It is a one owner "estate" gun and has never been hunted, only fired a couple of times. I had a gunsmith go look at it and he said it is the nicest 21 he has seen in a long time, especialy that old. Serial number is in the 221x series. This gun has not been refinished, it is all original. Thanks for all the responses.

H

My 20 gauge 2 bbl set, according to my Cody letter, is a Skeet grade gun, but is not marked "Skeet" on the floorplate (factory Oopsie?) Has all the other characteristics, including the Hessian fore end. Bbls are 26" I/C / Mod and 30" Mod/Full

Winchester did not use "Skeet Grade", either in 1933, 1936, or later. The first mention of the "Skeet Gun", Tournament or Trap grade is the August 12, 1933 price list. The June 21, 1932 price list made no mention of the Skeet Gun. However, the "Skeet Gun" folder mentions skeet championships won by Model 21 shooters in 1932. At the same time or a little later, the Standard Grade was available with skeet chokes. In the January 2, 1936 price list, Skeet Guns were available in Standard Grade, Trap Grade, and Custom Built Grade, and the Tournament Grade's short run had ended. Skeet Grade is not mentioned, nor was it mentioned in any later lists or catalogs that I am aware of. Cody, Schwing, and Madis make up their own terminology, not all of which is in synch with Winchester catalog offerings. The 1933 "2000 Proof" Model 21 catalog is the first to mention the Skeet Gun.

Maybe Schwing, Cody and Madis made up their own terminology. Seems more likely to me that Winchester internal records referred to "Skeet Grade", and that the guns in fact have the "grade" characteristics detailed by Schwing. After all, Cody reports what's on paper in those individual gun records. Makes more sense to me that the difference is the marketing guys making up their own sales-focused terminology for ads and catalogs.

Jay

It appears [according to the Schwing book] that the shotgun is a 1936 era stand alone "SKEET" {TYPE?}, although the 221x SERIAL NUMBER INDICATES 1934 manufacture but M21 receivers were not used sequentially and this type of Model 21 did not appear until 1936. It has the Bradley red front sight and all other indices of this type. It does not have checkered side panels but Schwing says this is common in the model. I have ordered a letter from Cody to verify all this before purchasing.

THANKS

H

GunLuv-er May I ask a favor. I don't have the Ned Schwing M21 book- can you look up the serial number on a 12 field grade M21 sn 15992- My late father bought it, used, for about $75.00 from a Queen City gun shop, (circa 1948-79) the owner traded it in on a Browning Super-posed-it has 28" barrels choked imp. cyl. and mod- ejectors and SST- I've owned/inherited it since about 1981 Thanks, Dad!) and it is field grade, no engraving, but on the left barrel near the breech it is marked 3" chambers- but it is NOT a Heavy Duck model- nothing on the bottom of the floor plate, and for a workhorse boxlock, it weighs 7 lb. 4 ounces-good balance and handling too. Thanks RWTF

From Winchester Catalog 89, 1934 --



From the February 24, 1934, Price List that goes with Catalog 89 --

Schwing says the SKEET Grade was introduced in '36.
Do you have the '36 catalogue?

Beat me to it Bob. Here (referenced for the third time) is the quote from Schwing's book on page 108:

"Introduced earlier in the Tournament and Trap Grades as a sub-grade, 1936 was the first year for the Skeet Grade as a grade unto itself."

But Researcher did post some later catalog references about the "Skeet Gun" in other grades. I think when Winchester began treating the gun as a separate grade in terms of distinct features, the marketing guys for their own reasons resisted and continued producing catalogs consistent with it being a sub-grade. It makes no sense to me that Cody and others working from original internal records (in addition to the advertising material) would all choose to invent a non-existent "grade" inconsistent with the catalogs.

As we've seen in this thread, Cody continues to report Skeet Grade for individual guns from those records.

Inconsistency isn't all that surprising, we know too that Winchester pretty routinely made guns per order that differed from their normal offerings. The business of the M-21 was not what we think of today as "businesslike".

Jay

Another thought. My 16 ga. marked SKEET on the trigger plate, 12,000 range serial no. , came with a Winchester leg of mutton case and had European walnut straight buttstock and beavertail. Chokes are marked Wsk1 and 2.

RWTF: My resource OLDGUNS.NET only go to just over SERIAL NUMBER 10,000 so I'm sorry I can't be of help. I do not have the 1936 Catalogue and BTW NOONE HAS STILL VENTURED AN EDUCATED GUESS [AS DESCRIBED] of its' value!

THANKS

H

$3000.....give or take ..

come on its an American made boxlock......

We've still yet to see pictures.
Assuming everything the OP says about the gun is true,

26" 12 gauge WS1/WS2...$6000
English stock, Checkered butt...$500
99% "original" condition(???)...$1000

If I was selling I'd want $8000,
If I was buying I'd pay $6000

Indeed, one that took 2000 blue pill over-proof loads, and made a Purdey and a few other fine guns- "bite the dust". The M21 Dad left me has had a lot of rounds through it before it came to me, still on face, ejectors in time-I have left the trigger selector to fire the right barrel first ever since 1981-works like a Rolex tells time. The "spring assisted" opening feature makes some folks think the action is loose, when the push the top lever over to un-breech the gun- As far as "graceful" handling and balance- Like a solid Stevens 311 or an Ithaca NID-waaay over-priced on today's market, IMO. But because I will never sell any of the "family" guns that came my way over time, I really don't give a good rattlin'damn what the market values may be- One of my gunning pals at our Pheasant Farm Hunting Club bought a pre-WW2 M21- Skeet 26" WS-1 and WS-2, PG, BT-SST and AE from Wm. Larkin Moore in AZ and paid about $2500 for it- Marked SKEET on the bottom of the receiver, very nice wood and checkering-But way heavier than my Field Grade, with the splinter forearm and 28" barrels.

Are you referring to that little spring connected to the barrel stop? From what I see of how it works on my gun, it does nothing to assist opening -- it just allows the barrel stop to "float" within the lug and very slightly softens the stop's engagement with the frame. I believe the patent description of this feature calls it simply "floating barrel stop".

Jay

I've shown you all the 1933, 1934 and 1938 Winchester catalogue pages that pertain to the Model 21 Skeet Gun. I do not have a 1936 Winchester catalog, but if your interested Cornell sells a repro --

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Winchester-1936-Pocket-Catalog-/291642029334?hash=item43e7383516:g:kHwAAOSw~otWdG~n

I'd be willing to bet it shows the same terminology as the 1938 that I've shown.

Here is from a Winchester folder titled "Winchester Skeet Parade of 1934" --



Here is from the Winchester Skeet Book dated 1934 --



This is from an undated Winchester Skeet Book, but it includes the winners of the 1935 National Championships which were held in late August 1935 --



And, to close out what I have for the 1930's here is from the 1939 Winchester catalog --

Mr. Cash, yes, I have a 1936 catalog and it says nothing about a skeet grade, nor does any other catalog. How about giving it a rest. The 1936 catalog says nothing about a skeet grade, regardless of what Mr. Schwing says. I told you earlier that the 1936 document showed only "skeet gun" not "skeet grade". What don't you understand about that and Mr. Researcher's statements. Maybe it's your turn to produce some Winchester catalog that refers to a Skeet Grade.

Tudurgs, I am calling you out on your claim that a Cody letter calls your gun a skeet grade. I have looked at a baggo Cody letters for skeet guns and have not seen this description of a Skeet Grade. Skeet finish, yes, Skeet Grade, no. Please scan the letter for us. I am not saying that Cody could not misinterpret the terminology, as Schwing has, but we aren't going to find a Winchester catalog that describes the Skeet Gun as a Skeet Grade.

Gunflint Charlie, yes, Schwing was definitely confused in his terminology on page 108. On page 109, Winchester catalog pictures and captions clearly call the guns, "Standard Grade Skeet Guns", which is what they were then and are now. On the following pages, he continues to incorrectly describe the Magnum and the Duck Guns as Magnum and Duck Grades, which they were not then and are not now. By the way, Reseacher, thanks for sticking to your guns on this subject. You are right and the rest of the posters are mistaken, taken in by Schwing's misinterpreting of the factory literature, which has been continually right in their description of the Model 21 Skeet Gun as the "Model 21 Skeet Gun". I am waiting for the Cody letters and catalog entries that describe this gun otherwise. Mr. Cash, yes I do have the 1936 catalog, as I said earlier, and I also have all the rest.

If you'll re-read my first post, I only referred to the Schwing book as the source of my information. Very sorry to have ruffled your feathers.

My feathers only got ruffled when I told you that I had the catalogs including 1936, that specified that skeet was a style, not a grade and you still defied me to produce the catalog. I wasn't lying, nor is Researcher. I have all the catalogs.

Well, since I already acknowledged that the post-1935 catalogs are inconsistent with Schwing, I don't find vehemence and irritability makes that info more compelling as evidence that Winchester design and production guys didn't consider and document 1936 and later guns as Skeet Grade. This mere inconsistency didn't and still doesn't persuade me that Schwing was wrong in saying the guns became a separate grade in 1936.

If Winchester production records show nothing changed, then why would he make such a specific assertion as this?

"Introduced earlier in the Tournament and Trap Grades as a sub-grade, 1936 was the first year for the Skeet Grade as a grade unto itself."

I'm not calling anyone out, just trying to reconcile the contradiction in a way I think reasonable. I see no reason to question tudurgs veracity in reporting info from his Cody letter -- no more than I'd call you out Bill to scan and show us a post-1935 Cody letter referencing "Skeet Gun".

Like I said, inconsistency isn't so hard for me to accept given all we know about how Winchester operated.

Jay

Apologies again as I didn't completely read any post by you regarding your catalog collection.
A quick internet search produced the following item for sale

Product Description
WINCHESTER – Model 21 SKEET, 12ga. 30" barrels choked M/F

Schwing is most likely the seller, huh??

Yup!

All wise guying aside,
More delving into the internet shows plethora of "SKEET" stamped 2 barrel sets, the underlying thread is that 1 set is always WS1/WS2.
Do you suppose that the a fore mentioned gun may have originally been part of a 2 barrel set, the Skeet barrels lost to time. Hmmmmm...

That would be my guess, Bob.

Bill - Am in FL presently. Won't get home until April. Will scan it then. I may be playing fast and loose with "Skeet". Forgotten if it says Grade or Finish

I have a copy of the 1938 Winchester Sales Manual- re: M21- see pages 38-39-- Trap and Tournament Grades listed only--Nothing about Skeet- which came about in the early 1930's, taken from Wm. Hardon Foster's "Shooting Around The Clock" I have read.RWTF

So,to add to the confusion, mine is#4047 sold to the Navy Athletic Association. Finished in March 17, 1937. It is marked Skeet on the trigger plate. However, just forward of the trigger plate screw,if held in the right light I can see the word Tournament hiding in the steel. Management just changed it's mind and polished out a grade. But, the steel crystals remembered.

This is fun info! Guessing your details on this gun are from a Cody letter? Does it name the grade or refer to "Skeet" as gun, finish or grade?

Jay

Mr. Cash, a SKEET marked gun can easily have longer barrels or tighter chokes than normal. If a customer wanted a capped pistol grip and a checkered butt, he would order a "Skeet Gun" instead of a Field Grade and pay about $15.00 more. He could get any chokes he wanted. My wife owns a 20 gauge "Skeet Gun", marked SKEET on the trigger plate, choked IC and MOD. No mystery here. No sarcasm either.

The photo copy of the Final Inspection Report in hand writing "std M/21". From Cody " Model G2100B Standard". So, end of argument?

I'm confused again.
According to earlier posts, were not the attributes of a "SKEET" stamped gun those that made it useful for the game of Skeet?
What you're describing in your last post sounds like the characteristics of a particular "grade" of gun, not of a gun made for a particular purpose.
Sincerely (really)
Bob

p.s. Not to be argumentative but nowhere in previous posts did you mention a 1936 catalog. You did however refer to a price list.
I asked about seeing a catalog in the spirit of furthering my Model 21 education.

Ok ... maybe closing in on why Schwing referred to "Skeet Grade" -- perhaps because from 1936 on the defining characteristics of "Skeet" were "grade-like" in all respects except retaining the previous advertising and catalog naming? SOMETHING changed in 1936, and he does define furniture characteristics for the guns. With chokes entirely unsuitable for skeet, "Skeet Gun" seems a misnomer, while -- "Skeet Finish" really seems the equivalent of "grade".

But then Schwing shows choke tables with only WS chokes too -- maybe from the pre-"finish" period when "Skeet Gun" was in fact defined by it's purpose for the game? It IS confusing.

Jay

PS - I second and share Bob's respect for you Bill, don't mean at all to suggest anything else.

Ok ... maybe closing in on why Schwing referred to "Skeet Grade" -- perhaps because from 1936 on the defining characteristics of "Skeet" were "grade-like" in all respects except retaining the previous advertising and catalog naming? SOMETHING changed in 1936, and he does define furniture characteristics for the guns. With chokes entirely unsuitable for skeet, "Skeet Gun" seems a misnomer, while -- "Skeet Finish" really seems the equivalent of "grade".

But then Schwing shows choke tables with only WS chokes too -- apparently from the pre-finish/grade period when "Skeet Gun" was in fact defined by it's purpose for the game rather than by it's finish. It IS confusing.

Jay

Jay, no one would accuse the WRA people of trying to fool us into thinking Grade and Finish are the same or different. The only claim Researcher and I have made is that Winchester never, to our knowledge, had a catalog offering of "Skeet Grade". How you guys got into a many page conflict about the truth of that statement is beyond me.

Well Bill, I don't want "how you guys got into a many page conflict" to be a puzzle. If you'd merely said there was no catalog offering instead of saying there was no Skeet Grade, there would have been no reason to reconcile what you were saying vs. what Schwing wrote and you said was wrong. Schwing said nothing about Skeet Grade appearing in catalogs, and no one here claimed it did either.

Seems to me you were a bit of a party to the conflict part when others were asking questions to clarify and understand.

While acknowledging and accepting that the later catalogs still said "Skeet Gun", I thought it unlikely Schwing was entirely mistaken in making so much a point of distinguishing between what "Skeet" meant before and after 1936. I thought and still do that the marketing guys would have thought it too confusing to explain the change in promotional material designed to sell.

Jay

Post removed after RWTF corrected misquote of my previous post.

Jay, in the sixth post of this nine page thread, David Noreen posted that there is no evidence of a Skeet Grade Model 21 in Winchester literature. I have presented evidence of the truth of Mr. Noreen's statement for nine pages of argumentative posts. I don't care any more. You want it to be your way, right or wrong. So be it. You are wrong, Mr. Noreen and Mr. Murphy are right. Mr. Noreen knows he is right, I know I am right. Noreen and Murphy have a full catalog collection as well as other research material. Why would you and Mr. Cash want incorrect information to be inserted into the bank of collector information. I can't imagine what your intent is.

Done and Dunn- but w/o the Bradstreet! OK?? RWTF

WTF??
I will not speak for Jay but in which post did I say I wanted incorrect information to be inserted into the bank of collector information?

Get over yourself!

Bill, you still seem not to understand what I'm saying. I don't claim that Winchester offered a gun they called Skeet Grade -- I have repeatedly acknowledged this and have no doubt you're right about that. I don't understand why you treat this as a matter of argument and conflict.

I'm simply interested in understanding what Schwing meant in describing as "Skeet Grade" the particular wood and barrel treatments he says Winchester associated with the Skeet designation beginning in 1936. You've seen "Skeet Finish" instead of "Skeet Gun" on Cody letters, right? I'd be interested to know if the term begins to appear in 1936. To the extent consistently defined "finish" is a characteristic of M-21 grades, can we accept that by "Skeet Grade" Schwing means that from 1936 on guns marked as SKEET have the finish characteristics he stated -- rather than being skeet-purposed guns in other finishes/grades? Is there something subversive in understanding or explaining Schwing this way?

I don't see harm in speculating to reconcile apparent inconsistencies -- such as defining the "Skeet Gun" as a gun in any grade that's purposed for skeet ... except when it's not at all suitable for shooting skeet and may have finish characteristics that differ from recognized grades.

It's just a fun speculative discussion for me, and I can't imagine my speculation carries enough weight with anyone else to enter "the bank of collector information"! If it inexplicably does, I hope it's in fact what I've written in trying to understand Schwing's contribution to "the bank" rather than the mistaken way you've characterized it.

Jay

P.S. If you misconstrue harmless discussion as a challenge to your authority as guardian of "the bank of collector information", then yeah, you really should get over yourself.

In seven pages of conversation, you have insisted that Skeet Grade Model 21s exist in fact and in Winchester advertising. That is not so. However, that is not important, at least in your mind. You seem to have little respect for the "bank of information" and think that Schwing's incorrect information should be considered correct for collectors in the future. So be it. However, I will not buy into it. This is not harmless discussion as you describe it. It is you putting out incorrect informaton for seven pages of internet forum, and you discrediting those who correct your errors and post correct information. I'm not doing this for fun. If I were doing it for fun, I would have been finished after page 1.

Sorry Mr. Bore, I'm calling BULL$HIT!

I will once again not speak for Jay (although I completely understand Jays point of view and have appreciated his input on this thread).
Mr Bore, if you would be so kind as to point out in any one of my posts where I "insisted" on anything.

Suggesting alternative scenarios based on apriori knowledge seemed to me to be a constructive contribution to this thread and site.
I was unaware of the forum rule that states that once you've spoken, the discussion is over.

Bill, I have never stated much less insisted that Skeet Grade M-21s exist -- neither in fact nor in advertising. If fact I've explicitly agreed with you several times that they do not exist in advertising, and I've said it just this clearly in my posts above. I don't think Schwing's use of the term "Skeet Grade" is correct. I've only said I think it's likely he found something in Winchester's production records for 1936 and after that may be reflected in Cody letters as "Skeet Finish", that he chose to describe as "Skeet Grade". It's just a speculative suggestion, not even really an opinion because I'm ready to abandon it as soon as someone reports "Skeet Finish" on a pre-1936 Cody letter.

Far from putting out wrong information, I've not put out ANY information other than quoting Schwing's puzzling statement about "Skeet Grade". I've simply suggested a way to reconcile information that in some aspects seems inconsistent. Where have I discredited anyone?? Geez Bill, you're all alone in making this an argument over "Skeet Grade" -- it's really about perceiving harmless discussion as questioning your authority. No one else that was with you about the literature (which I fully accept as accurate!) is with you in mischaracterizing attempts to learn whether Schwing found something changed in 1936 but named it in a way Winchester didn't.

Whether you won't take the time to actually read what Bob and I are saying or you're unable to discard pre-conceptions that cause you to misinterpret, in either case there's no point and it's not worth the aggravation to explain any more what I can't make any more clear.

Jay

Hey-any of you guys ever see the movie "Diner"-- The anal-reflective dweeb who drives the big old Hudson Hornet-and his whole live centers around: Music/record trivia-and fries with gravy at the Fell's Point diner?? Schweebie? Get a life, already. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot difference does it make how the earlier M21's were marked on the receiver flooplate. A friend has a M21 his Grandfather bought in 1939-for grouse hunting- 20 gauge 26" barrels- sn 9139- double triggers, ejectors, straight hand stock with that fine wood grain and checkering pre-WW2 Winchesters often had--and on the receiver floor plate- it is stamped TRAP- No more a Trap gun than my M12 Pigeon Grade 12 gauge TRAP gun 30" full- is a woodcock gun-- what's in a name, aye- there's the rub..And as the grand Duke once said: "It don't mean a thing if it ain't written by Schwing"- paraphrased of course.. RWTF

Somewhere I have a partial box for a 21 skeet gun.In fact I have a bunch of boxes for different guns that I got from a sporting goods store that went out of business many years ago.Just my 2 cents worth.

Bob and Jay, thanks for your comments. These guns are quite interesting and useful to shooters. I'm sure we are all aware of the Model 21 informational website bluepike.tripod.com It is inactive but most of the information is still available.

Which part? Or, parts?

I've had 4 Purdey's made for me as Mr Trevallion will attest. While all great guns that fit me, nothing is more pleasurable for me to take afield than my 1947 G2119B 28" WS1 & 2 Straight grip. Probably the best upland bird gun combo ever, bird mudering machine. I looked 15 years for the right one, and I am prouder of it than all my guns. The sidelock guys need to get over themselves.

I'd pay $8000 for a 99% vintage 12 gun with no excuses.........all.day.long.

Good substitute would be "New Ithaca Double" at percentage of Model 21s cost. The handling of typical samples is very, very similar. My question always was and remains is assuming no polishing has been done and work is done by professional how can you determine that typical Model 21 wears original factory finish or "facelift job"?

Like vintage Rolex watch dials, which are everything to their value, spotting and knowing Winchesters with original finish comes from years of looking at 1000's of them at shows and friends collections. The metal and even the wood has a look and "feel" that even guys like CSMC cannot ever duplicate. Kinda like Colt blue from the Depression era, can't be replicated with modern methods and is easy to spot........at least for me

For some it may be a good substitute. The Winchester is less expensive and ammo can be had 24/7 at 24 hour Walmarts.

I admit my 20 ga Purdey SxS fits better and is a better gun, but I hit more birds with my M21 that isn't fit for me at all ( 14" LOP). I attribute it the best upland chokes ever, WS1 & 2, for me anyways

Clif W., I agree with you 100%. I have guns worth much more than my 21s. However, they are the "Hammer of Thor" in shooting qualities. I, too, am searching for a 28" 12 gauge Skeet Gun with straight grip and original checkered wood butt, high condition. I have my Dad's 1948 20 gauge 28" Skeet Gun with checkered butt and in mint condition, but won't carry it. The Lovely Linda owns a 26" Skeet Gun with 26" IC & MOD barrels, straight grip and checkered butt that is not quite mint, so we both shoot that one. You bring some refreshing comments to this thread.

Someone took the packing and inserts out.I have the rest somewhere in my 4 rented storage units.

Bill - Found I did have a file photo of my Cody Letter. Guess what? "Skeet Grade". Don't know how to attach a file from my computer. Will do so if someone smarter than I can tell me how

Thanks for the information.

tudurgs, do you have the year was this gun was made?

Jay

Gun was made in 1956

Oh my!

Dear Mr Bore,
Apparently the Emperor not only has clothes
but it would seem he shoots a SKEET Grade Model 21 as well.

Caveat emperor??

[quote=Run With The Fox]Caveat emperor?? Nah Francis, only a matter of semantics, and this does not appear to be a big deal. Besides, most 21's started the same and are similar, no matter the Grade.

Buss- I concur. My friends' M21 12 Skeet- 26" WS-1 and WS-2, pg, bt. sst, ae- checkered butt- has the same plain jane un-engraved lines-with the side bolsters-arrow shaped, as my (inherited) M21 made 1946-1950 SN 15992- with 28" barrels, pg, splinter fe, ae, sst-factory red 1922 pat'd pad-- His gun weighs 7 lbs. 10 ounces, mine weighs 7 lbs. 4 ounces- Just for fun, I took my Galazan brass tubular drop-in choke gauge- my right bl. is imp. cyl. same drop in "sticky-tight" fit as his WS-2 choked left hand barrel. His right barrel WS-1 indicated aprox. .0030" constriction at muzzle- but the internal choke taper for the WS-chokes is of a different radius pattern cut then that found on the std. field chokes- those, I believe, gauge out on a 17' radius- Best-- RWTF