This Quality F Smith Baker just sold Sunday not far from me in Gettysburg, PA. It is a 10 ga. with 32" barrels.
The stock wood is refinished and has a skeleton butt plate.

I am wondering if anyone here has ever seen a Quality F. It was the highest grade made when L.C. Smith bought into the W.H. Baker and Co. in 1877

Is the engraver known? What a nice gun.

to bad about the stock....

Norm, the engraver is not known but I can guess it is either one of the Spangler's or Joseph Glahn. Lyman C. Smith hired the best engravers and both the Spangler's and the Glahn's went from Syracuse to Fulton when John Hunter bought the gun works.
Both the Spangler's and Joseph Glahn did work for other gun manufacturers, namely Lefever.

I assume the gun is marked W H Baker and Company ? Do you know the serial number ? It is my understanding that guns prior to the Baker Smith connection were marked W H Baker. After the connection, it was W H Baker and Company.

Daryl, the serial number is 2346. On top of barrels, L.C. Smith Maker of Baker Guns Syracuse, N.Y. My guess it is from 1878-79.
Guns that I have seen from before the merge have W H Baker & Co. or WH Baker and after the merge I have seen some that have Baker Pat. and also Baker's Pat.
I have only seen one later gun when L.C. Smith dropped Maker of Baker Gun from the barrel and it had L.C. Smith on the lock plate.

JDW, I think from the examples I have seen, and I am going from memory, not my notes and records , that the very first guns in Marathon and Lisle were marked W. H. Baker. Earliest ones seemed to have no serial numbers, and there were quite a few conversions from muzzle loaders. Serial numbered guns went up to serial number 250 [roughly] for the double guns.

Then the Baker/Smith partnership took over in Syracuse about 1877, 1878 and 1879 and the guns were marked W. H. Baker and Co. This marking on the doubles continued through about serial 1700 when Baker and Smith parted ways [about early 1880].

After that date and serial numbers continued and the guns were marked L.C. Smith, Maker on the rib, and Baker Pat. usually on the side. That double gun was produced by Smith until about 1883 or 1884 when Smith developed the Brown designed double.

When dealing with serial numbers and putting them into years, one often finds an out of sequence number that does not fit the general understanding. Until the earliest records are found , if they do even exist, all of this is by observation of guns, ads, articles, etc.

Given the above , your F Grade gun was probably made in the very earliest 1880s. But, being a special gun, probably many lower grade guns, with higher serial numbers , went out the door before the F Grade. Also, we find that Baker Gun and Forging Company, for instance, had a many month supply of finished guns in warehousing, waiting to be sold and shipped. So sometimes completion dates and selling dates were quite far apart.

Wow!! More pictures of that gun wouldn't hurt our feelings.

Daryl, that is understandable about the serial numbers. I have found that out in my research on Hunter Arms L.C. Smith hammer guns trying to figure when certain cosmetic changes occurred. If it were not for Jim Stubbendieck helping me out with dates that showed not all changes occurred as to serial number sequences.

Brophy and then Houchins thought the serial number groups meant that there were guns made for that entire series of numbers, not so as proved by Jim in the records. That is why Brophy's number count was higher than it really was.

In my records I have serial number 355 Quality B (double) and I only have written Very early Baker gun. Serial number 978 Quality A has patent date of 6-1-80 (J spring) and no marking on locks. Serial number 1601 Quality B 12 ga. 30" barrels has W H Baker Maker Syracuse, N.Y. on barrel.
I believe Smith Baker double guns went from serial number 300-9,999. I have serial numbers to 9877.
Serial numbers starting at 10,000 are now Center Draft bar action locks from L.C. Smith Maker Syracuse, N.Y. Patent date of Nov. 27, 83 on inside of early locks. Guns started I believe in 1884.

Here is one that baffles me and maybe you can help. It is a 16 x 16 x 38-55 that has the outside release which I thought was only a Baker thing and changed by Alexander Brown's patent for inside of guard. BUT this gun has Monroe C. Smith on top of barrel (Lyman's youngest brother)
The only number on the receiver opening is 1 but has a 2 for grade.



Has W H Baker & Co. on lock. The 38-55 first came out in 1876.

Dave here are more.



Daryl, in now thinking about what you said about the year of this gun, I think you are right. On the full picture of this gun it did not have the slide on the for-end to hold it on which makes me believe that it has a J Spring. I know who owns it and will see it soon and take some pictures of it. These were from another friend who went to a private showing and took some close ups that I had asked for, but picture of for-end was not taken.

JDW, if I understand what you say about Baker/Smith doubles going from 300-9999, but I think you misspoke . Additionally you said you had or have seen a W H Baker and Co. double 1601B. Actually, I owned that very gun for a while. I have maybe 50 guns recorded between serial 300-1700 marked W H Baker and Co. After that, they are marked L C Smith Maker, Baker Pat. or similar. Before that, the doubles would have only W H Baker on them with no "and Company". I think your #355 and 978 fit the W H Baker and Co. range and time frame of the 1880 patent.

Your Monroe Smith gun is a treasure. I think it is a W H Baker and Co. era gun which involved 2 or 3 Smiths as well as Baker. It seems to be a celebratory gun, made as a gift, too. It could be serial no. 1 or 2, but most likely the former. By the way, I have never seen another 16 ga. Drilling from any of the companies. As to rifle calibers, they seem to be all over the place in the drillings. I cerrosafed 5 or 6 of the chambers here and found no two the same. Some were close. Maybe the tools of the period were not as accurate as later tools.

Note that early W H Baker [no company] drillings don't seem to have serial numbers. Neither does my Allerton and Baker drilling which is the only one I have ever seen.

Daryl, the serial numbers in my records are from what I obtained from off the Internet gun sales and auctions. Sometimes it just listed the serial number and a description. The ones I was able to get pictures of I did and some show all and some do not. The ones that show the for-end without any type of latch should be considered post 1880 guns in my opinion.
It would be nice to know the time date of the serial numbers and the range. I got some of the information about the range of serial numbers from John Houchins' book "The Legend Lives". Listed under W.H. Baker & Co. It states the three barrel started at serial number 1 to 300 (I is on the 16 ga drilling). The two barrel starting at 5 to 1650. These are from Syracuse from 1877-1880.
For L.C. Smith the three barrel started at 300 to 1600 and the double barrel 1650-10,000. This is from 1880-1884.

The gentleman who owns the 3 barrel told me the barrels are cut to 22 inches but shooting a .38 he is able to get a decent group at 25 yards. I think he stated it is a 38-55 Ballard.

JDW, I gave John Houchins a bunch of info on serial numbers as well as gun pictures of the Baker and Baker Smith era. Somehow, some did not translate correctly into his book. It was a massive project and I am amazed he could compile what he did. If you follow my guide above, you will have the "most" possibly correct information.

In the early Baker guns and Baker and Co. guns, there were several types of forend fasteners. Finally, the J spring won out and is found on guns by several other makers as well.

Thanks Daryl. I did see your name in the acknowledgements.
The book was a massive undertaking and it has it's mistakes but without it there would be many voids.

My main research was the Syracuse hammer guns and the Hunter Arms ones as there was really nothing written about them.
Along with those then came the Baker and then Smith Baker ones and these are the new ones to me.

Thanks again for your help.