I always enjoy the long bird contests at the larger sporting clays shoots. May be partly because of the gambler in me, but knowing that half the cash taken in will be given to the winner makes it interesting. I have had some success at it, too, winning a few of them. I just love shooting at really long clay presentations.
There is one being held here tomorrow as a fund raiser for a local 4-H shooting team. I picked up a couple boxes of WW AA 1 1/8 oz. 7 1/2s yesterday to use. I shoot the 1 oz. RIO lower cost shells at sporting most of the time but for this I want heavier premium loads with hard shot. Got me to thinking ...................... at what distance would the energy of the 7 1/2s not be sufficient to get reliable breaks on the clays (standard target, not battues)? Digweed used #4s to set the world's long distance record on clay birds several years ago. Where would you need to go to 6s, to have the energy needed?
And, yes ............... tight chokes are a necessity at this game. You're usually shooting a presentations that are a minimum of 70-80 yards, sometimes considerably longer.
SRH
My 13 yr old grandson won a long bird shoot using a Modified choke and 7 1/2's, because that's what he had in his hand at the moment.
He won in a shootoff against two adults shooting full race trap guns. He won about $100. (They had agreed to split the $300 pot regardless) Being 13 means no nerves.
Stan, can you shoot anything larger than 7 1/2's? At some clubs, that's the largest size allowed.
That is usually the case, Larry. But, at a fundraiser like this, I don't know. I don't really think they will have anything set at such extreme distance that 7 1/2 s won't do, but I was mostly just wondering about the retained energy levels. Such as, how many 7 1/2 s would be required to reliably break a 90 yard standard target, face on? How many 6s?
SRH
What kind of a layout do you have for a "long bird" shoot? What kind of trap; where do you stand; straight away; crossing; etc. It sounds like to fun to watch.
At my local club there are occasional long shot contests using the regular trap layout and just backing off: Sometimes from the club house porch, and if no winner, all the way out in the parking lot. It's generally a shoot until you miss affair; informal; and among good friends.
How about live bird loads? Super quality stuff!
bill
This reminds me of George! Worth dusting down I feel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Teixm6JMw_k130 yards!
Tim
Stan, I would prefer my GH Parker, 36" eight gauge with about 2 3/4 ounces of buffered #6. For normal long bird shoots where they actually look at your gun, regular pigeon loads, 1 1/4 ounces of hard 7 1/2 at 1225 fps. I have a lifetime supply that I loaded a few years ago when I thought I could afford to shoot flyers. The truth is that I can afford the shells, but can't afford the birds or the options.
First; if it were known for a certainty how many pellets are required to break a target, Larry Brown and Andrew Jones would have nothing to argue about.
For regular clay target shooting, nothing can have more retained energy than a #7.5 launched at 1330 fps. At 60 yds that equates to about 0.9 ft-lbs per pellet. I've seen enough targets smashed at 60 yards to know that such a shell is adequate. OTOH, I can say that, while loading teal machines on a course, I've stood under teal targets 60 yds from the shooters and heard pellets tinking off them.
Clearly, a single pellet strike at any distance can be insufficient to score a target dead. So, when using #7.5 @ 1300 fps and I have any doubts, more choke is the answer. One ounce of #7.5 @ 1300 fps and IM or Full accounts for every target I break beyond 50 yds....whether a FITASC target, second shot on a bunker bird, a hard angle 27yd ATA bird or a Bo Whoop Challenge pair.
IME, a load of #7.5 will break anything that's perfectly pointed at 70 yds. I no longer play any games with longer shots. But if I did....I might be tempted to use #6 if they were allowed. Started at the same velocity, a #6 will retain the same energy as #7.5 for an additional 10 yds. In other words, I trust the .74 ft-lbs of a #7.5 at 70 yds and a #6 will still have that at 80 yds. Then there's the diminishing return of pellet count and at some point luck becomes a big factor...the point where a perfectly centered bird is lost to a thin pattern.
All things considered, the best shooter will likely win out to 70 yds or so. Beyond that, luck plays a big enough role that most anybody can win.
At a Canadian FITASC shoot 20 years ago, The World's Greatest Target Setter (his articles say so)set a 90mm Midi target quartering away from a trap set a measured 90yds from the peg. One C class shooter broke it with a light mod choke. The Target Setter rode him around in his cart all day to validate the fairness of the target.
I'm thinking that 6s are needed at anything past about 80 yards. You may get some breaks at 85-90 with 7 1/2s, but not reliably..
I disagree with your statement, Mike, about luck playing such a big part past 70 yards that anybody can win. I've shot a good many of these deals, and I've never seen a novice win yet. Most of the time, if they get up enough nerve to even try it, they never hit a bird out of 10 tries. Usually you get 10 shots for the money, sometimes 5 pairs. The young guys with tens of thousands of registered targets each year usually win. Us old guys get it right every now and then and beat them. A blind man might get lucky and hit one, but what wins is the most breaks out of 10. Nobody is that lucky. I love to see the kids shoot well ...... Congratulations to your grandson, tudurgs. Mine oldest is 13, too, and is a good shot as well.
As to the question about presentations, usually there will be a high chondelle, or a high arcing target thrown flat. Occasionally there will be a true pair and you will shoot five pairs. Once at a State Shoot there was a pair of trap targets going up and away. The traps were set at about 45-50 yards from the box, with a lot of spring. You had to try the first bird under power (climbing hard) and then the other would be about to top out and begin dropping at about 80-90. You had to shoot way under it to intercept it as it fell. I got dialed in on them and won that one.
SRH
I doubt I'd be hitting much of anything past 70 yards. The old Winchester Super Pigeon loads, 3 1/4 DE, 1 1/4 oz 7 1/2's, would probably be my choice--assuming they don't limit you to 1 1/8 oz or something like that. I used to hunt pheasants with a guy who was very good at trap, and shot dozens of roosters every year with that Super Pigeon 7 1/2 load. He'd apparently never tried them in 6's until I gave him a box. He liked those even better. Unfortunately, hard to get that load in 6's in a quality factory load, although it's one you can easily duplicate
if you reload.
I know shooting a stationary bird is not a good test of gun capability, because the "spin" assists in the break. However, However, an eighty yard bird, by the time you shoot it, has very little spin. How about shooting stationary clay targets at 70, 80 and 90 yards to see what happens "out there"? If you set up a close quarter grid of maybe nine targets, how many of those targets do you think would even have shot in them? As Mike, Stan, and I know, shot string does not increase the number of shot in a long target over and above a paper target, it decreases the number of shot in a long target. How do we break those birds?
I'm gonna be ready Saturday with several different loads up through 1 1/4 oz. They'll might even give you the shells so everybody is shooting the same thing, at a little deal like this. Doesn't matter to me, really.
I do have a couple boxes of 3 3/4 - 1 1/4 - 6s and 7 1/2s, come to think of it.
SRH
I know some here are fans of #7, why no mention here?
Also, 6 1/2?
http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Nickel-Plated-Lead-Shot-5-11-lbs/productinfo/NP05/Also, maybe a #5 steel load might be big enough in diameter to break a target with one hit more reliably? It might suffer from low pellet count but has the potential for a very dense center of the pattern?
When shooting the long bird--especially the really long bird, the savvy shotgunner that plays for the
BIG BIG MONEY considers lag-time, wind drift and drop.
No way with steel. Retained energy goes down quickly with a less dense pellet such as steel
When shooting looping, crossing, dropping targets at 60-70 yards, very little luck is involved in hitting them. There's still enough pattern density that a skillfully placed shot will likely break the target. The combination of distance, changing line and speed require a high degree of skill and luck plays a minor role for the consistent shooter.
Anybody ever pattern a gun at 80 yds? As suggested, put a target for a bullseye on an 8-foot square backer and take a shot. Then you'll wonder how we could ever break a target over 70t yds. That pattern represents the absolute, ideal, best chance of breaking a vertical, full-face teal....the kind that used to be used for 80-100 yd long bird games. I'll wager that the novice who shoots 4 feet to either side of the bull stands as good a chance as the expert who centered it in the pattern....that's luck.
It takes skill to consistently break 8/10 tough targets. When the winning score is 3/10 I'm not convinced the best shooter present won.
One thing to consider is A.C. Jones book which suggests a single 7 1/2 pellet is likely to break a clay at 75 yards based on pellet energy at that range. He shows clearly that spin is a major factor, and tests by Neil Winston after the book was publish show pretty clearly by slow speed videos that spin does not decrease substantially over the flight of the clay. As I remember Digweed shot English 7's (like 7 1/2 here) out to close to 100 yards then went to English 6's (about 6 1/2 here). Digweed shot twice at each clay, which increases the chance of a hit but at 100 yards or more but even 2 well centered patterns still need luck for a single pellet strike.
Gold star to idahobob!!! Anyone interested in shotgun patterns MUST read Dr. Jones's book. It is by far the best work to date. It is especially good on what is required to actually break a clay, a subject with very little research to date. Jones shows that exactly where the pellet hits is very important to the break. One pellet hit is usually/frequently enough to cause a target to shed a visible chip. Next time you are shooting clays, pay attention to how many targets break into 2-3-4 pieces; pretty indicative of a one pellet break. If a pellet hits a clay with enough energy to start a fracture (clays are very strong, but brittle), the centrifugal force of the spin will cause the fracture to propagate sufficiently for the target break. Remember seeing a target obviously hit, but not broken, suddenly fly apart a noticeable time later? When you see this you can note that the fracture took a bit longer than normal to propagate.
DDA
I know what you mean but, it's hard to see tiny chips at 80 yards, Don. It takes a true "break" to be scored a hit in a long bird shoot.
OTOH, I can walk a clays course with you and show you MANY targets that were hit with upwards of three pellets and never broke off a visible chip, and these at much, much less than 80 yards, when the centrifugal force (spin) was higher. Videos notwithstanding, I believe a clay's rotation slows from the time it leaves the arm to the time it is at 80 yards, maybe not what he calls significantly, but physics does not change to suit the "suitor".
SRH
" Luck is when preparation meets opportunity " Richard Petty.
Boats