Edit
***IT IS ACTUALLY A 16ga****

When I got it home and started taking pics, the barrels felt very heavy for a 20ga. I put a set of calipers in the muzzle, .630. Not a 20ga! It was marked at the pawn shop as 20.

*****************************

I am completely LeFever ignorant.
While my buddy was transferring a pistol at a local pawn shop,
I found the above gun. Not in great shape but the bores were bright, no cracks around the locks, slightly right of center, stock very dark but not cut, checkering was well worn.Looks like original butt plate.

I didn't spend a lot of time on it. If its worth taking another look at I'll go back in the morning. Any things specific to LeFevers to look for? Approx value as is? I can probably get it for $800.00 drive out.
Is this gun worth a restore?

Go now and wait by the door until he opens...Then sell it to me!

E grade 20 gauge ? hell or high water be at the door in the morning !

Will do.

Thanks!

Don't fail me! I already have the banker working on a new mortgage..........

Sound like I need to stick a label on my forehead

DA of the day

Damascus?

I've been told that 20 gauge damascus Lefevers are rarer than honest politicians.

Lefever Arms Co. 20-gauges in anything higher then Durston Specials are scarce as the teeth of hens. I'm no Lefever expert, but I'm reasonably certain that both of the Optimus Grade 20-gauges I've seen in my life were fakes.

But nice looking fakes I am sure. Lefever had very trim lines and their 16's look like most other makers 20 and a 20 is as trim as most 28's. Wands which just beg to go shoot a covey of quail or a few doves. Glad I am not in Texas. I'd be up most of the night calling pawn shops looking for it.

Bill I will give you a S1000 for it! I had an EE 20 gauge few years back and they are scarce. Bobby

Certainly worth a crack. I've spent more on less I am sure. A 20 E could be a spectacular piece. Fwiw I have owned 7 Lefever arms 20 ga guns and 6 of the 7 had "bad barrels." 4 with barrel walls .010 to .018, one with a hairline crack and one with bulges. 4 were fluid and 2 were Damascus. The 7th I have yet to measure as it sits in the safe likely unfired and I am not sure I want to know.
( I am clearly a sucker for a Lefever )

Mark interesting post ,I too am badly stricken with Lefeveritus but up here in Canada they are beyond rare ...you mention that you've found six with bad barrels ,did they come from the factory with thinner tubes or were they tampered with through the years ...I ask because most I find (which are few ) seem to have above average wall thickness with the exception of one F grade that is on the thin side

First of all. Just to be clear- I am not trying to discourage the buyer. I obviously would keep buying them. I would love to have a little better luck though! I have bought zero 12 or 16 gauges Lefevers with barrel issues. I don't think "it's a standard Lefever problem" Now the first thing I ask myself is are the 20 ga guns I can afford, Junkers? That is possibly the case when bidding online, but likely irrelevant on the ones I've found on foot at reasonable or uneducated asking prices. As far as answering your questiosn, I don't know. I have wondered the same. Simply considering my numbers I would assume that fluid steel 20s were on the thin side to begin with BUT I have never received any commiserating data or opinions from others so my data is just one tiny piece of the puzzle.

I think that Lefever struck the 20's thinner than 12 and 16's. Every one I have come across has been a delightful wand feeling more like a 28 than a 20. If they struck them to .025 or .020 there is not that much extra metal there if honed much. And did they measure barrels much after striking? Maybe they set their standard at .020 to start with.

I have a DS 20 that needs to have deep pitting cleaned up but it is already at .018 in the thinner areas already. Last owner refinished the barrels and they are now shiney but too thin. Too thin to clean up, too pitted to shoot. I have a set of Briley 20/28 ga tubes that I could fit to it or have thought about having it sleeved into a 28 ga, 30" barrel. But the cost just makes it into one of those endless money pits I am trying to not dive into. At less than five pounds it is a joy to swing by a lit firecracker to shoot.

I have a very late 12 gauge H grade with 28" twist bbls, SN on frame is 73,338 & on barrels 73,342 I have never actually measured the wall thickness but with a total weight of 6½ lbs they are rather thin. While I have never seen it SN 73,337 is listed as a 12 ga with 28" Damascus barrels. Damascus there may, or may not, mean Twist, some folks just do not differentiate between them. I have never shot this gun but a few times with some very light loads as I feel the barrels are a bit suspect.

I have a GE 20 and it also has rather thin barrels (.019 left and .021 right. I am in the camp of that is probably the way Lefever made the barrels and we may be getting to anal about this. I shoot mine with lite RST's FWIW

I have nothing intelligent to contribute regarding Lefevers, but it is not at all unusual to find MWT about .020" PAST 20" in vintage small bore U.S. doubles. Beyond the dent concern, I'm WAY more concerned about MWT breech to 12", which is rarely reported by dealers. And running a wall thickness gauge quickly down a barrel, usually one pass down the thicker top near the rib, and announcing the MWT is ____ means nothing.

Commission Internationale Permanente pour l'Epreuve des Armes à Feu Portatives (C.I.P) http://www.cip-bobp.org/
Standard CIP proof pressure of 850 kg per sq. cm. (BAR) = 13,920 psi proof pressure = 10,730 psi service pressure (SAAMI)
Shotgun recommended minimum wall thickness (p.4) for Standard Steel with tensile strength 700 - 849 N/sq. mm = 101,526-123,137 psi
http://www.cip-bobp.org/sites/default/files/new_file/A-4-1_EN.pdf

20g
End of chamber - .075”
4” from breech - .071”
8” - .041”
12” - .028”
16” - .022”
20” - .020”

Please note the average crolle tensile strength in one study was about 1/2 the CIP "standard strength" barrel. Pre-WWI steel barrels were reported, and a few measured, at 85,000 - 105,000 psi.

I think it's tough to generalize about the thickness of Lefever barrels. I have a 20 ga. DS that weighs just as much as my FE 12 ga. at 6 lb. 4 oz., and I have a 16 ga. DS that weighs less at 6 lb. 2 oz. Then I also have a couple 20 ga. Lefevers that are a little lighter. Two of my 20's have mild pitting and the heaviest is not pitted. I've also seen a few 20 ga. Lefevers that had deeply pitted barrels, or at least appeared that way. It is hard to judge the depth of pitting at a poorly lit gun show, especially when the seller can't take the time to swab or brush the crud out of barrels that look like a sewer pipe.

I'm actually always a little suspect of bright shiny mirror bores in 100+ year old guns unless the overall condition suggests that it was always well cleaned and cared for. But at $800.00 for a 20 ga. E grade, I'd be a probable buyer unless I saw a damn good reason to keep my wallet in my pants. If you don't have a tool to measure barrel wall thickness or bore diameters, it couldn't hurt to ask for a few days to get it measured and return it if it was honed out junk. This thread is a couple days old, so tell us if you were lucky enough for it to still be there when you went back for another look.

Now that its home, I was able to look it over more carefully.

53211 Manufactured 1906
E grade
28" Krupp barrels
all numbers match
Case in hidden areas only
Min wall thickness .031 (8" from muzzle one barrel)
6lbs 7oz. (muzzle heavy) Not near as light as I was expecting
1 small hairline crack behind left plate
chip missing at heel
forend solid no missing wood
top lever right but action a bit loose
Need new butt plate
slight dent at muzzle left barrel
barrels ring
Scalloped PG cap
Screws are perfect

Pics to follow.
Hope I didn't get taken. $825.00 OTD

I am sure that after a few nights you will be able to sleep well again...Enjoy it...Good catch..

If you want to resell it I am sure five or more people here would be happy to buy it. While not the holy grail you did find a very nice gun. People who say a 6 1/2 pound 20 is too heavy never shot one very much in a hot dove field. That gun should swing well and handle decent loads with zero problems. I hope it does not end up upgraded into a high grade gun down the road. I've seen several 16 and 20 high grade Lefevers which I am sure have been upgraded. There are just so few of them in the first place the temptation is too great. Worse Lefever guns are so varied you can't predict normal from odd from fraud.

Sounds like a great buy so far. Congratulations.

Your statement "top lever right but action a bit loose" suggests that the top bolt which engages the dolls head is not worn, but the compensating screw in the front of the action knuckle may need to be turned inward a fraction of a turn. Weak, or even broken top lever springs are common in Lefevers too. If the action is tight when you hold the lever right, it may be a weak spring. I would start with a repeated application of a GOOD penetrating oil on the compensating screw, IF that's the problem, giving it lots of time to get into those threads that haven't been turned for 110 years. Kroil is over-priced junk, IMO. Patience, and a very good screwdriver bit that fits the slot perfectly are needed too. I've soaked 'em for as much a 6 months before getting them to move. Easy to bugger if you slip or break a bit or get impatient. Fortunately, yours will have the screw slot instead of being the older face spanner type.

Bill:

Welcome to old Lefevers! My first Damascus gun was old 87030 (a 1901 G-grade 12). I even hand loaded black-powder shells for that one. I have never even seen a non-Durston 20 so....great find. Now......pictures please!

My inclination would be to pack up your new found Lefever and send it off to Buck Hamlin in Pevely MO for a good inspection and correct any problems he may find.

I will add a comment about the ball screw. After the soak as Keith suggested when you go to move it back it up first. There seems to have been two methods of fitting these screws. One method used a taper thread. The other used a straight thread but the hole was tapped to full depth all the way through the knuckle. Either way the screw is getting pretty tight just prior to coming to it's final position. It will normally back up easier than it will go forward. Then it can be turned back in the needed amount. Turn it in just enough to put the barrels back on face but don't use it to bring the top lever around to the right, this results in an incorrect fit of barrels to breech.
As Lefevers do not have a "Compensating Spring" in the forend many will feel a bit loose when open. This is of absolutely no consequence if they bolt up tight & on face.

Amen, brother. SRH

AND! NO Lefever is too heavy or too light to enjoy shooting at anything anywhere....

Well here is the real kick in the pants. I was handing the barrels while taking pics and they felt chunky. That's because its a 16ga. It was tagged at the pawn shop as a 20.

HEY! Still nice..at a good price...You are not the first one of us to do that....Enjoy it...

LD,
Kind of embarrassing but I shoot a lot of 16ga so no disappointments.

Rarity aside, you're likely better off with the 16ga on the XX frame. Nice looking late E Grade!...Geo

Bill remember me as I just bought a gun from you. Bobby

Keith,
There is a bit of play in the top lever. If I lay my right thumb against the right side of the toplever and put a slight pressure left, the barrels tighten right up and the toplever is still just right of center.

Congrats on a nice gun. I have a 12 gauge and it seems to me to be as nice handling as my Thomas Bland 12. Uncle Dan Lefevers are my favorite American made double.

Well, since it is JUST a 16 ga, I'd be happy to take it off your hands. Just shoot me a price and turn yourself a nice profit.

I'm probably not kidding....

Yeah Bill, that's what I meant. By holding the top lever to the left, you are assisting a probable weak top lever return spring. As I said earlier, this is a pretty common ailment in Lefevers. I don't know if Lefever Arms Co. made their own springs in-house, or sub-contracted them. But I've often wondered if they didn't buy or make a very large batch out of the incorrect spring steel or utilize improper hardening and drawing. I can only recall seeing one Lefever hammer spring that was an obvious replacement, but lots of weak or broken top lever springs. Good luck trying to find a good original, but fortunately, it is nothing complex or difficult to make.

I've bought several Lefevers that turned out to be a different gauge than I thought I was buying. Some shrunk on the way home and others got bigger. Strange how that happens.

Keith,
This was the first Lefever I have handled, so there wasn't a specific 20ga feel I was looking for. A Flues would have had flags up for me as I know better what to expect. that is the first time it has happened to me.

That is good news on the spring. The input is appreciated.
The gun is intact enough to be a nice looker with some work.

Still on a high!
Best,
Bill