I am in the process of looking for some guns to form the basis of a nice collection. Are sxs shotguns and classic bolt rifle's prices low...high...normal? Good or Bad time to buy? Is an undesirable but possible Clinton win affecting the prices? Opinions sought.

Thanks in Advance

H

I think so.
JR

Guns are a bad investment, if you are looking to make money. They are a good hobby but only as a hobby if you want to use them or let them sit in a safe as a closet queen to be taken out and admired for their art work like beauty. Make your money elsewhere, don't try to make it in guns unless you have a lot of money and can wait decades to reach better prices. This anti gun fever is not likely to go away ever and the anti hunting, anti shooting in general is getting worse.

This is just my personal opinion and it is based on what I am seeing in the short term. Basic double guns, field grade guns like Sterlingworths, are not moving quickly. Well condition ones will sell if priced low enough but the market is flooded right now with guns with a lot of wear. We call them shooters and beaters. Prices needed to sell them are down but most sellers are not lowering prices to move them so a lot of guns are just sitting there not selling. Mid-range graded double, like Fox A to C grades only sell if either priced attractive or in pristine condition. If well worn they seem to be in the field grade interest and almost never seem to sell. High grade guns are a very small niche market and it hard to read, but they seem to move best at a major auction house.

Why the gloom you wonder. Demographics, Politics, economics, trends in hobbies and shooting opportunities. Demographics is the easiest to understand younger shooters want semi autos or O/U's with all the choke options, recoil reduction and bells and whistles. Pump gun and doubles are "old" and out of favor. There are a lot of old shooters getting to the age that they are not buying but are selling their guns. The Baby Boomers are all getting old at once.

Politics is not a slam against the Democrats but facing facts. They have built a lot of their rise to power on myths of the evil gun and if we just had more gun laws we all would be so much safer. Worse they are going to be able to pack the Supreme Court for the next 20 years in the next four years if they get in. I can see more gun laws coming and that does not help the market prices. In the end it will be no more effective than the Republican War on Drugs was.

Economics is the tricky one because this economy is going well in some places and not at all in others. So if yo live in the right place it is a good time to buy and if you live in the wrong place you might need to sell.

Hobbies and shooting habits just looks at where people spend their entertainment dollars and what they do with their spare time. 30 years ago Tennis was booming where I lived then, now it is just about dead. Horse shoe throwing was a big hobby in my youth with leagues and every park had several to up to 20 pits for use, they are all gone. Bowling was big in my youth and is now just a small interest. Point is that hobbies that were big like hunting and shooting have declined and are not likely to rebound to past levels. Maybe you should have cornered the market on Pokemon's.

"The average man does not buy his gun as an investment, but as a tool to use afield". Not word for word, but close to what the late Captain Paul A. Curtis wrote in 1934- in his book "Guns and Gunning". Many gun "collectors" use the theory of the "greater fool"- they buy a Parker or a Holland & Holland today, at market pricing reflecting on grade, gauge and condition, and plan to move it to another party "down the road" at a mark=up, same philosophy high end gun dealers employ I should guess.

If you want investment advice, get close to Warren Buffett, and stay out of the gun market. KY John has just penned "words of wisdom"-- and older gentlemen gunners, like two of my friends from a pheasant hunting club where I shoot, have passed on, their children and grandchildren do not hunt or shoot clays or paper targets, so the guns go through the auction "mill" and the net cash is divided with the proceeds of the estate.

I only buy used older guns that meet these criteria: (1) They must earn their keep- they are all meant for shooting, or as Hemingway once remarked: "A gun is to shoot with"!!(2) They must have been proven to hold up in the field without breakdowns- Model 12 and 97 Winchester pumpguns, Belgian Browning A-5's, LeFever Nitro Specials, etc.. (3)They must be priced, depending on condition, close to the current Fijestad Blue Book range--and (4) They must be in "wear with care" condition- I stay away from the Del Grego and Turnbull "showpiece" guns, like my hero Hemingway, my guns are all working class, show use but not abuse, and are, like an old friend, 100% reliable. (5)In centerfire BA rifles, I stay with the std. calibers, avoid the wildcats and short-fat Magnums- better re-sale and cheaper ammo. By that I mean, in BA rifles,: .270Win, ,243Win, 30-06, .308..300 Win Mag, .338 Win Mag and .375 H&H Magnum ( my only exception is a G&H custom BA in .35 Whelen, but Remington and others offer factory ammo for this great "Wildcat in cal. 30-- I passed up a near mint 1939 Winchester M71- as they were only offered in .348 Winchester, and that ammo, around my neck of the woods anyway, is fairly scarce and pricey. In shotguns, 95% 12 gauge- I hate to pay the big premium for the 16 and 28 gauges, and like Nash Buckingham, I detest the dinky .410-- You'll' get a better deal in today's used double gun market if you shop for a 12 gauge, and pass up the smaller gauges, at least in my experience. I am not a college man, but I have read both Adam Smith's tome : The Wealth of Nations- so I think I grasp the supply and demand theory-- The major double gun companies made more of their guns in 12 that in all the other gauges popular at any one point in time.

My take on the market is that used custom rifles are quite weak right now as are English SxS's. Both are nothing like they were before the economic slow-down. While this would lead one to believe this might be a great time to expand their collection, if one looks at this from a business perspective they need to ponder whether this is a short term event. Personally, I look it as an buying opportunity but limit it to guns I really love instead of thinking it an investment. Years ago we weren't so selective because you knew it would be a fairly easy re-sell any if you wanted to recoup your cost. I also have noticed that odd calibers or unusual stock dimensions almost make it a show-stopper being nearly impossible to move a gun and so I stay well away from such. Good luck and if you find something you truly want then the time may be right for purchase.

Ed

Fox, you're a joy to read, whether I like 'em or not. Question: you're a real romantic keeping your nose in books with an appreciation of finer things. I'm more rifleman at heart than shotgun shooter although ducks and geese over decoys are more to my game. Does foreign nomenclature of the great 7 X 57 exclude it as an American favourite? Bloody shame.

There are a bunch of fine gun dealers who feel very differently. So do I.

Those are very narrow views of, and responses to, the op's question, not to mention the reluctance or the willingness to let go of money when the right opportunity arises, or to actually do the legwork and research needed to make money in fine/classic guns.

The problem with most double gun enthusiasts is they don't use business sense in their purchases, but rather, their emotion and preferences about what they buy. Sure, you should buy what you like and intend to use, but don't use that criteria to invest in the gun market.

Demographics notwithstanding, there are plenty of years left to make money on fine or classic firearms.
JR

I'm not really actively buying anymore, but if I see one that really appeals to me and I think it is a reasonable price I will still buy. Problem with the 'gun economy' nowadays is they're all good buys compared to what I've paid in the balloon price years. And there seem to be lots of'em that appeal to me...Geo

One man's opinion:

I think custom rifles prices are down and continuing to head down. The same seems to be true for most older domestic and imported SxS's. Also Browning A-5's.

I think it is due to demographic changes. The younger shooters (working, good earners) seem more interested in semi-auto black rifles than in traditional walnut stocked bolt actions. The ones I see prefer gas-operated semi-auto and O/U shotguns, rather than SxS's.

Us old fellas (FOWG's) are dying off, and after the funeral the kids sell (or trade) Grandpa's A-5, Model 12, or Ithaca SxS to buy an AR-15 clone, or a Glock.

Interestingly, and counter to the above thesis, prices of older Colt & S&W revolvers are climbing rapidly ???

.. gold40 -- (a Fat Old White Guy)

Nope- I just forgot to include it when I went with the .270Win- Cactus Jack O'Conner's "numero uno" caliber. I also read a book on Economics (The Dismal Science) by Paul Samuelson. he was always referring to the choice between guns and butter- don't know if he was a hunter or gun collector though.

You've it right, John Roberts. A majority buy guns to shoot with and others to invest to make money. I'm solely with shooters, business sense or not, and couldn't care less about investors betting on markets.

I know it's a business like anything else, have nothing against making a profit but peddling doesn't seem to me what guns were made for: discriminating buyers to shoot or those who just wanted one like their grandpa's.

If you want to invest in guns as a business investment, do not buy guns you like!! You need to be coldly rational in your buying and selling decisions if it is a business investment. Also look at the demographics. Fine doubles were the guns of the 50's and 60's. People who wanted them when they were young are now old and their estates or widows are selling them, not buying them. They were sought after by hunters and few in the younger generations have the opportunity to hunt without substantial effort and expense.

Were it not for thr peddlers (dealers), where would your pieces come from? A gun tree?
JR

Sorry, Bob, but you've got that altogether wrong. Fine doubles were guns from the late 1800's until the late 1940's, when servicemen returning home started the trend toward repeating shotguns like the Winchester Model 12, the Browning A-5, and even later the Remington 870's and 1100's, as well O/U's like the Superposeds and various imports from Stoeger, G&H, and Charles Daly, well into the '60's and early '70's.

About then there emerged a resurgence of interest in the classic sxs's that spurred the Win. 23, the SKB's, the BSS from Browning, along with the many Parkers, Foxes, L C Smiths, Ithacas, etc that we still see, along with the British and Continental guns thrown in.

There is still a significant market of well-to-do shooters who want these guns in their battery.
JR

My kids, grand kid, and hopefully great grand kids are going to inherit the gamut from hammer shotguns and single rifles to the latest in modern arms.

One thing I have noticed, is at about age 35 they develope a greater appreciation for walnut and steel. Or at least my tribe has.

Santa wasn't a peddler. My first was under a Christmas tree. After that mostly from dealers and friends. I never thought of the transactions as business or investments, more like welcoming another treasure in our home as that first one 75 years ago--- which I still have, a Mossberg.22 bolt 46B.

Unfortunately I must agree with KY's thesis and others that the next generation is moving away from old SXS guns.

Demographics,driven by falling bird populations save turkey and geese, and the push to non toxic will eventually devalue the market more.

I think the high end stuff will still be high end, but field grade stuff is doomed.

Indicators like the number of field grade guns making ot out of Europe is an indicator of what is coming to take plaace here.

I hate to but it is coming anyway.

As for the initial question on investing in guns, I have seen few people really make money on guns. 100% of them did it on the purchase price. If you don't get a good, very good, deal up front when the cost of your capital is considered you simply don't make money.

I look upon my gun dealing as rentals, the loss on each gun was rent to hold it awhile.

I believe Run with the Fox is right in his Curtis reference that guns are tools. I try to buy the most satisfying ones that I can. I do not use the level of common sense he does as I am a 16 gauge nut and all my double rifles are in archaic cartridges (then again I could not have afforded them if they were not).

Sense long ago told me I needed one good shotgun, likely a 12 ga O/U with ckoke tubes and it could do everything. It is true today, except desire puts far more than that in the safe.

Thank you, Sir, for the kind remarks. All my male mentors shot 12 gauge shotguns- 16 and 20 gauges were reserved for ladies and children in my upbringing years (1940's-1950's). Just re-read the 25th Anniv. edition of SS magazine, the writer's favorite shotguns- Two interesting ones, from the fotos and details, and the 2 I would pick as well- A Francotte 16 "funeral model" sidelock, and a Winchester Model 1897 Trap Grade, by pal Silvio.

Although I love the muzzle fore ward feel of a pre-1964 Model 12, I can also shoot a Model 97 equally as well.

The status quo in EU countries where people hunt will become the status quo here. Shotgun wise my advice would be to buy second-hand 20ga or 12ga PB Whitewing or Blackwing and do more hunting. The possibility of non-tox shot mandate and inability to order shells to the doorstep will spell doom for old double gun users. Blackwing shooter will have no problems as Winchester Xpert steel is <$10 per box at Walmart. If one wants classic rifle old Model 70 Featherweight in .270 or .30-06 will do nicely. Modern stocks for old M70 are offered by Mcmillan.

When my kids were pre-teen, and teenagers, they loved to shoot. They also worked as the target crew for local rifle matches at my gun club. Then I sent them to "good" universities, and they returned home liberal, with no more interest in guns or shooting.

As adults they have zero interest in inheriting any firearms. So, at age 75, I'm gradually selling off the collection and putting the proceeds into the grandkids' 529 college tuition funds.

Contrary to some of the earlier comments about guns not being good investments, my experience differs. I recently sold a Colt Diamondback for 5 times the amount I paid for it 30 years ago. The same was true of an S&W revolver I bought new in 1964, and sold last year. Many other items in the collection are worth several times what I paid for them -- albeit that I have owned (and used) them for 30+ years. Even calculating an "alternate cost of funds" I've made a profit on most guns I've sold.

The other open question is whether or not our grandkids will even be allowed in 2040 to keep any guns they inherited from Grandpa.

gold40

How you vote in November might have some relevance to the question you pose. I know my single vote doesn't amount to anything but at least I have the satisfaction of knowing I'm cancelling out my liberal neighbor's vote...Geo

Colonel, your last sentence describes my situation exactly except I have no wish to add another gun---any gun:

"Sense long ago told me I needed one good shotgun, likely a 12 ga O/U with ckoke tubes and it could do everything. It is true today, except desire puts far more than that in the safe."

I bought a 12ga Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon o/u with choke tubes. It will do everything on ducks and geese from the blind. For less serious afield, I fall back on old American and European classics with handloads.

Field grade is doomed, as you say, from what I see around here. A new generation wouldn't use a double if given to them. There isn't one on the racks of two nearby gun stores. Mostly semis and a few pumps.

I like your notion of rentals although I've never sold one. I was careful in selecting doubles and have never had a hankering for higher grades of cosmetics. A good gun is a good gun.

I have two nephews.....22 and 27. Their dad, my brother, doesn't hunt or shoot. Or he doesn't unless my other brother and I take him.

Their mother didn't like guns when they were growing up. They have lived 2500 miles away for a very long time....long enough that I could have no influence on their thinking about guns, hunting and shooting.

Of their own accord, they have gone through the bureaucratic hell required up here to be able to acquire and own guns. They have taken their hunter safety courses. They are now waiting for their PAL (Canadian possession and acquisition license) to show up in the mail. And they are strongly urging me to come those 2500 miles this fall and show them how to hunt. Which I will do.

My point? Unlike a few doomsdayers here, I don't think all is lost. Not everyone wants semi autos only, black guns only, cheap guns only. Maybe the collectible market may contract but the shooting and hunting market doesn't have to.

I think the rise of the semi autos is related to it being the gun of choice for waterfowlers. And having done both kinds, I'd say there is a lot of gear that can be advertised for duck hunters. And those advertising dollars pay for more screen time, magazine pages, websites, than I think the upland hunters get pushed at them.

King, the issue isn't doubles vs semis. It is one of price. That's all. You can get as good a semi as can be had for the opening price point of one of the B guns. And pumps are way less.

I'm on a gun forum with 150,000 members. Thread after thread after thread is about what is a good gun to buy for under $500 (Up here in Canada). Hunting is expensive and until you know you like it, and even some time after, it's hard for a lot of young people to get that kind of scratch together.

Oh, and my nephews.....they really want me to bring some of my SxS's with me.

Sounds exactly like what a socialist would say about gun ownership. One is enough, and a proletariat version at that. All for the common good.
JR

This is a very interesting thread and the responses are all excellent. Thank You! I hope it continues a little longer. I might also clear up my reason for asking what I did. I was not asking for the purpose of collecting for profit. I probably didn't make myself clear, but I was trying to get a feel for whether prices are high now so I could theoretically put off acquiring certain inflated price models until later [when I am out of University and prices have hopefully stabilized]. Especially if the prices are unusually high now. I know the timing and buying of specific models is almost impossible. My father has always said "You make any money on a gun when you buy it at a good price". I appreciate and respect all your opinions and will consider them carefully.

H

last good year for sxs gun sales was 2007...

Wrong guy, John. One isn't enough for a serious hunter, evidenced by my post and gunroom. Buying carefully doesn't infer proletarian tastes. I don't subscribe to a consumerism of we are what we own. I believe possessions are a burden and in a common good.

Gunluvr, the time to buy a gun is when you have the money. If you are starting out keep it simple. Decide what you are likely to use the gun for, it can narrow your choices down. If I had to start out slow I'd buy a Sterlingworth 12 ga., 28" or 30", Mod and Full and a second gun would be a Ithaca NID 20ga., 26" or 28" barrels in IC/MOD or MOD/Full. With just those two you could shoot just about anything that walks, flies upland or waterfowl. From dove, quail size, rabbits to big honking geese. Plus 12 and 20 ammo is very easy to find at reasonable prices.

Here is my rational for the Sterlingworth. I can find a very decent shape Sterlingworth gun in the $600-800.00 price range with no problem. It will handle just about anything I want to shoot in it and the gun will last me a lifetime. The choice of a Ithaca NID 20 is based in large part in the fact that NIDs were all modern guns, modern steels, with 2 3/4" chambers and decent stock dimensions. I can find a Ithaca NID for several hundred less than either a Serlingworth or LC Smith. And there is no way I can afford a Parker 20 on a limited budget.

Best of all even after I have those two I can always find a reason that I just need one more gun, well more than one to be honest. And shopping is most of the real fun anyways.

Between 1990 and about 2010 I beefed up my gun collection. Among them I purchased 11 Model 21s. I would just buy one and stick it in the safe as an investment. About 5 years ago I sold several of them including 9 of the 21s, Browning Supperposed, and many others.

I wanted to travel which was something I had never done. And travel in style. So I paid cash for a C6 Corvette and never looked back. I more than doubled my money on the guns that I had sold.

I have been happy ever since. I still shoot once in a while and have several nice guns left. But at closed to 70 years old, I have a hard time getting out in the field like I used to.

I saw the day coming when all these young peckerwoods would want their Tom Knapp 10 shot guns and their AK47s. So I got rid of a lot of my guns. I got tired of seeing them sit in the safe.

I'm glad to see you guys keeping up the tradition. So forget about value and resale. Those days are probably gone. Remember the feeling of being out in the wild with a beautiful gun and caressing it like it was a beautiful woman. And pass along those feelings to your kids and your grandkids. That's the return you'll get on your investment. It's worth a lot more than the money you'll get out of them.

And hello to all you old timers who I haven't talked to for a while.

God Bless.

Hi Jimmy,

Good to hear from you again. It's been awhile. Hope you're enjoying your traveling, and travel you can, in a C6.

Your comment about caressing a gun like a beautiful woman reminds me of something from years ago. In a trade, I acquired a high condition 16 ga. L.C. Smith with very long legs, 32" inseams, in fact. Quite a beauty. I was at a three day S x S shoot, and staying in a cottage house on the range property. I carried the gun around some that afternoon with me, shot her a little, and dubbed her "Susie". I fell asleep with Susie in my arms that night, and awoke with her right beside me. We "bonded".

As to the OP's question, some are priced low, some are priced high, and some are "normal". If you want the low priced ones, it is a good time to buy. If you want the high priced ones, it is a bad time to buy. There will always be anomalies in the pricing of any gun type and make/model. It is those anomalies that you look for when buying ........ guns that are worth far more than the asking price. They don't come along everyday, but someone finds one every day, somewhere. Patience is the key ........ that, and knowing the market. It takes time to learn the market on specific guns. Always remember to try to isolate your decision, to purchase, from emotion. If you're like most of us, you won't be able to, but it's still something to aspire to. If you can do so, you will save lots of money, and have a better chance of not getting upside down on a gun.

SRH (student of the School Of Hard Knocks)

I have several points to make, a couple on this post. #1, follow your stockbroker's advice and buy in all markets, up and down. #2, knowledge is king. People who know a lot about guns and collecting make the best buys, in fact, the only good buys. There is no point in keeping your nose to the ground if you don't know what a good gun smells like.

Follow your stockbroker's advice, hey. You know why Old Joseph Kennedy bailed out of the market in September 1929-and went into liquid assets (the Scotch he smuggled was part of them)? Because he heard his shoeshine boy that morning say- "Mista Kennedy, I's gonna invest in de stock market"_-Kennedy figured that there was something way wrong with the market then if his shoeshine boy could afford to play in it, on margin.

My wise Irish Grandfather, who never trusted bankers or the market, answered very wisely for me many of my boyhood questions- simple and direct answers- no "beatin' around the bush"- so to speak. We were holding his Model 12 12 gauge one night, after a big shoot- cleaning it- and I asked him about stockbrokers-

So he used the M-12 broken down as an example, long before the USMC taught me that "field stripping" does NOT involve Gypsy Rose Lee- Son, you strip down that big word into its component parts, and what do you get? Stock and broker, right? So- you buy the stock he is touting, and when it goes into the crapper, as they all do sooner or later, which one of you goes "broke-er" first". He would have seen Bernie Madoff coming ten miles away on a cloudy day.

He also taught me two other valuable concepts, almost akin to Mario Puzo's great character based on real life, Don Vito Corleone. (1) If you want to know what is going on inside any business, make friends with the janitor- (2) Always go out of your way to befriend what the late Leona Helmsley called "the little people" If you are ever hauled into a court of law, there will be more of them in the jury pool than the Koch brothers..

What you say, Fox, jibes perfectly with my experience. I made money listening to my mother: Buy land, only land if you want to profit while living on it.

Your mother must have been a serious student of the late mark Twain- Land is always the best investment, as God only made just so much of it to go around. My mantra 100%.