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Posted By: Genelang Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/16/16 11:33 PM
I'm damned if I can find a place to shoot birds that isn't expensive...and then they're planted. I'm not counting doves. So I'm mostly a Not Shooting gun owner.

I sold two shotguns today. I can't remember ever shooting them. They were inexpensive guns and went for a cheap price...a Hunter Fulton (good gun, 16 ga) and a Stevens 12. Utility gun, heavy and wide.

I would like to be a Shooter but I'm not there yet. Maybe I should have titled this thread "Shooting" and "Collecting."
Posted By: gunut Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/16/16 11:56 PM
the 16ga fultons are nice guns.....the earlier ones especially.....I sold a 1936 good condition fulton last fall 4 $280...and a 1920 fulton in v-good condition this spring for $400....probably should of kept the 1920 gun but I also have more guns than I shoot.....
Posted By: tw Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 12:26 AM
You may think I'm daft, but I strongly suggest that you take the time/make the effort to meet and know the local game warden where you might wish to hunt. Most wardens know who the land owners are and where the game is and can possibly put you in touch w/a hunting possibility that proves less than expensive.

FWIW, I think most here either have guns not shot often or at all and for those who may not, I think they would like to, but as Russ used to say, I could be wrong.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 12:32 AM
There are no wild birds (quail) in your part of the world in huntable populations. I came through Watkinsville this afternoon. If you shoot quail they will have to be released birds. If you don't count doves (???), what exactly are you looking for? A place to shoot early released birds that fly well ....... cheap? I understand your frustration, but don't quite understand what you want.

If you don't want to shoot released birds, and I fully understand that, and you don't count doves, you may need to become a clay shooter. It ain't all bad. It lets you shoot all you want, with varying degrees of difficulty, and won't break the bank. They do make thin gravy, tho'.

SRH
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 01:00 AM
My observation has been that once you start counting the pennies in hunting and shooting, it's all over.

I recommend just start budgeting a certain amount every income period, and just stow some money away year round. Store it on a debit account, and when season comes round, use the card until it's all gone.

I know many people that struggle to find time and money at the same time. A year round monthly shooting budget at least solves one of the problems.

If I lived near a quail plantation, I'd budget for once a week.
Posted By: Dan S. W. Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 01:52 AM
Supposedly there are about 6 wild grouse in the Cohutta wildlife area (part of the Chattahoochee national forest).

I am in the same boat. Shoot clays regularly in Atlanta, but can't seem to find any suitable hunting opportunities in reasonable proximity (for a novice such as myself). A buddy and I went to a "plantation" in South Georgia and gunned down a few pen-raised birds. Didn't feel very sporting and haven't done it since.
Posted By: Genelang Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 02:26 AM
I've belonged to two clay bird shooting clubs that folded. I don't mind shooting clay birds, and would prefer that to pen-raised birds.

There's a club fairly nearby. I may take a trip there and see if it's going to fold before I buy in.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 02:54 AM
Buy a dog. Get access to some grown up fields or open woods. A clear-cut will do. Get some training birds and let your new dog find them. Dog needs to know what his name is and to come when you call him. The rest is hard wired into his brain.

Start now and keep going through the winter. You will have a bird dog next fall. You'll feel an obligation to the dog to go out every weekend you can and you will have the best next ten years of your life. Get another pup at five years and repeat for the rest of your life.

You will thank me for this advice one day!...Geo
Posted By: tw Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 03:35 AM
Some years back, a bud & I concluded that it cost $2500 a weekend to hunt quail, if we were honest about the real costs involved w/good dogs, training, dog food, dog trailers, vet. bills, dog tags, micro chips [JIC one cut the wrong scent & made a bad decision] & dog related accoutrements ad infinum, leases that might or might not harbor movable numbers of coveys, guns chosen & bought exclusively to that purpose, clothing &c. Wot had motivated us to even wonder of such things? Dementia? We elected to leave our findings alone, being best disremembered and continue to hunt as long as we were able, which left all of those dogs spoken of to run out their years in bliss, cutting a bird scent when the opportunity arose, honoring one another much of the time, but not always, not buying replacements to be trained, but keeping a coupla working retrievers & constant companions at a minimum and ultimately subsequent disposal of trailers, kennels, Dogtra's and not renewing leases that held native birds no longer due to the changes w/crops & pesticides as much as anything, IMHO. It was regional, not a locally specific phenomena, but it certainly affected the areas we were leasing for a number of good years prior. I'd even lay some of it off to crop dusters which are highly non-selective to where their vapors land and one must remember that a quail's best & primary source of protein is bugs. Sounds dismal I know and it was and remains so for that particular area. Last season we hunted on the last lease kept in that area we took one dove. Excluding everything aside from the lease fees, we had $1200 apiece in that stupid bird! Prolly flew too close to a magnetic field of some sort and lost its built in compass settings as it was clearly lost. Not sure there was another within two counties that year and we never saw or moved the first quail on that place that year either. Hope springs eternal, eh?

On the positive, birds [quail] have undergone a remarkable recovery in parts of W. TX over the last couple of seasons and it was possible to move numbers of covey not seen in the previous twenty years last season, as some members here can attest. My main hunting pard these days & I hunt with friends and/or an outfitter who is also a friend out Joe & Mike's way. Wild birds were prolific last season and the need for flight-pen raised birds was honestly non-existent, but he can supply them as well, when/if needed or desired. Those hunts run roughly $300+ a bit/day [inclusive of tips] over rough terrain w/an opportunity to take a limit over good dogs. Usually limited to four guns alternating opportunities much of the time w/two handlers and from four to six bird dogs [two to three on the ground at any one time] and a retriever. Weather and temps rule how long the dog(s)need to be out hunting. Of course you have to get there, have a gun & ammo, cover hotel & per diem expenses &c. Me? I call it a bargain.. and should Joe be w/us he makes up for my misses w/ease, since Mike has truly trained him very well in the art of shooting guns w/inordinate amounts of drop, hammers & other obstacles that would cause some city slickers to kennel up!

I've yet to see either of them take a dove off a wire from a vehicle moving 50mph. One or both being somewhat disremebersome in the shell game sense of hand eye math & fizziks.. Joe's old truck never had an accurate speedometer to begin with.. and I'm not positive Mike's even has one.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 04:25 AM
Ruffed grouse drumming counts up 19% in the northern part of the state. Pheasants are going to be good, too, and better in South Dakota.
My club is going strong, even if we did just lose Loren Hentges, the founder, Daughter Rita and Son-In-Law rick see it is well run. I bought my house because of it's proximity to the gun range, well, that, and work, and the liquor store.
Might be time to move, Gene.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: David Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 04:43 AM
Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
I recommend just start budgeting a certain amount every income period, and just stow some money away year round.


I have a friend and colleague, a Brooks Institute educated photographer, who says that a man is entitled to a couple of vices. Some men, he says, smoke expensive cigars and some men drink expensive single malt scotch. If you don't, you're entitled to put that much money away for hunting and fishing. It might add up to quite a bit. We both had studio space in the same building and I would have the occasional bamboo fly rod or pair of Gokey boots shipped to the office because I didn't want them delivered to our front porch with no one home. We also would have Christmas parties together. One year after the Christmas party, my wife and I were driving home and she said, "Jack says you smoke a bit. What does he mean by that?"
Posted By: Tamid Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 05:32 AM
Originally Posted By: tw
Some years back, a bud & I concluded that it cost $2500 a weekend to hunt quail, if we were honest about the real costs involved w/good dogs, training, dog food, dog trailers, vet. bills, dog tags, micro chips [JIC one cut the wrong scent & made a bad decision] & dog related accoutrements ad infinum, leases that might or might not harbor movable numbers of coveys, guns chosen & bought exclusively to that purpose, clothing &c. Wot had motivated us to even wonder of such things? Dementia? We elected to leave our findings alone, being best disremembered and continue to hunt as long as we were able, which left all of those dogs spoken of to run out their years in bliss, cutting a bird scent when the opportunity arose, honoring one another much of the time, but not always, not buying replacements to be trained, but keeping a coupla working retrievers & constant companions at a minimum and ultimately subsequent disposal of trailers, kennels, Dogtra's and not renewing leases that held native birds no longer due to the changes w/crops & pesticides as much as anything, IMHO. It was regional, not a locally specific phenomena, but it certainly affected the areas we were leasing for a number of good years prior. I'd even lay some of it off to crop dusters which are highly non-selective to where their vapors land and one must remember that a quail's best & primary source of protein is bugs. Sounds dismal I know and it was and remains so for that particular area. Last season we hunted on the last lease kept in that area we took one dove. Excluding everything aside from the lease fees, we had $1200 apiece in that stupid bird! Prolly flew too close to a magnetic field of some sort and lost its built in compass settings as it was clearly lost. Not sure there was another within two counties that year and we never saw or moved the first quail on that place that year either. Hope springs eternal, eh?

On the positive, birds [quail] have undergone a remarkable recovery in parts of W. TX over the last couple of seasons and it was possible to move numbers of covey not seen in the previous twenty years last season, as some members here can attest. My main hunting pard these days & I hunt with friends and/or an outfitter who is also a friend out Joe & Mike's way. Wild birds were prolific last season and the need for flight-pen raised birds was honestly non-existent, but he can supply them as well, when/if needed or desired. Those hunts run roughly $300+ a bit/day [inclusive of tips] over rough terrain w/an opportunity to take a limit over good dogs. Usually limited to four guns alternating opportunities much of the time w/two handlers and from four to six bird dogs [two to three on the ground at any one time] and a retriever. Weather and temps rule how long the dog(s)need to be out hunting. Of course you have to get there, have a gun & ammo, cover hotel & per diem expenses &c. Me? I call it a bargain.. and should Joe be w/us he makes up for my misses w/ease, since Mike has truly trained him very well in the art of shooting guns w/inordinate amounts of drop, hammers & other obstacles that would cause some city slickers to kennel up!

I've yet to see either of them take a dove off a wire from a vehicle moving 50mph. One or both being somewhat disremebersome in the shell game sense of hand eye math & fizziks.. Joe's old truck never had an accurate speedometer to begin with.. and I'm not positive Mike's even has one.



Thank 'god' I am a Canadian living in western Canada. Except for the almost discontinued pheasant release by the provincial government other upland continues to be strong in certain sectors of the province. I don't pay to play and my overall gross cost per bird really depends on the expense of the gun and how much I put into my dogs. I think it is far less than many of our comrades in the States.
Posted By: Genelang Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 05:52 AM
Used to be wild quail around here, but between fire ants killing the birds who roost on the ground and coyotes, they don't exist any more.

I've never shot planted birds before. Is that fun?

I could go to South America and shoot doves if I want to kill a couple of hundred birds a day with two guns, but that doesn't move me, either. And I do have vises...bamboo fly rods and single malt Scotch.
Posted By: DLA Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 10:20 AM
I bird hunt a minimum of four days per week during our local seasons. I hunt a couple other states on a regular basis. Hunt Canada and Argentina a bit. Yes, it is expensive if you add it all up. But what are the options?

If you make bird hunting a priority in life it's surprising what a guy of modest means can do.

Dennis
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 11:05 AM
Genelang,

I shot the sporting course at Etowah Valley last weekend. Nice place with some challenging presentations. It's a hard hour drive from you, I expect, but might be worth looking into for a clay venue. And I mean, lots of clay. Man, what some hills. Never hunted chukar, but this place ought to be good practice.

And, compared to properly planting and tending your own sunflower field, a trip to Argentina is a heckuva good deal.

SRH
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 11:43 AM
Genelang, forget wild quail. The point of my suggestion was the relationship with one dog you can rescue from the local pound. May be the truest friend you'll ever have.

It costs $50 to buy 10 flight conditioned bobwhite quail from a local supplier. You can make a morning in the woods with that many birds. Train with the put out birds and then enjoy a family dinner with the eight or so birds you and your dog will recover.

Is it the same as wild bird hunting? No it isn't, but is it fun and good for you? Sho is!...Geo
Posted By: tut Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 11:59 AM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
Genelang, forget wild quail. The point of my suggestion was the relationship with one dog you can rescue from the local pound. May be the truest friend you'll ever have.

It costs $50 to buy 10 flight conditioned bobwhite quail from a local supplier. You can make a morning in the woods with that many birds. Train with the put out birds and then enjoy a family dinner with the eight or so birds you and your dog will recover.

Is it the same as wild bird hunting? No it isn't, but is it fun and good for you? Sho is!...Geo


I have a 19 month old bird dog. Dog needs birds to become a decent bird dog. Putting out ten quail and watching a dog lock up and do its thing makes it all worth it to me. Is it hard? Nope. Is it fun? Sorta. Does the dog really enjoy it? Absolutely. It is certainly not the real thing nor even close. It is a wonderful way to get out and take a walk carrying a decent gun and following a dog bred to do this sport. I miss the days of wild covies and grouse within an hour of me. They won't be back I'm sure. This is the best I can do given where I live and its not awful.
Posted By: GLS Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 12:43 PM
I second the recommendation of Geo. There are a couple of Brittany breeders within a couple of hours of where you live. You have lots of National Forest and WMA's a rock throw from The Classic City. These areas have dependable woodcock flights during the season. I've hunted my Brittanys in the first year of their birth and if you have good lines of dogs, they are just about plug and play on woodcock once you teach them to come to you on command and "whoa", the most important command in my book. That and "stop eating the bird." wink Gil
Posted By: Last Dollar Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 12:52 PM
I am a VERY lucky man...Actually I planned it that way..
Posted By: Genelang Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 01:04 PM
I wish I loved dogs enough to own one, but I don't. I like to watch people who DO love dogs, though. I don't have the real estate for caring for a dog. So my birds will be made of clay.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 01:30 PM
Condolences...Geo
Posted By: craigd Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 03:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
Condolences...Geo

Cracked a little smile here Geo.

If it's just about the cost, I doubt the price per pound of trout caught with bamboo would turn out to be much of a bargain.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 03:55 PM
Originally Posted By: craigd

If it's just about the cost, I doubt the price per pound of trout caught with bamboo would turn out to be much of a bargain.


I dunno. A cane pole and a can of worms is pretty cheap, and effective. Maybe we've gotten too far from our "barefoot boy with cheek of tan" roots.

SRH
Posted By: Genelang Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 04:58 PM
Oh, it's not all about the cost. Nor is it about effectiveness. It's about choices. I don't quite understand why some people want to put a dollar return on a hobby, especially one that costs a lot of money.

I've never, ever had a hobby that was cost effective. Which is why they call them "hobbies" instead of "businesses." If one insists on a cash return, he's going to be disappointed.

At some point, you have to decide (or I have to decide) how far I want to pursue a new hobby (bird dogs) in the December of my life. I'm 71 years old, have never owned a bird dog in my life, and the pleasure of training and watching one find quail I planted isn't (to me) worth the effort...and I'm not counting the money. Like I said, it's hobby money.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 05:27 PM
Genelang,I see your point perfectly. Choices are individual and personal. I've hunted birds and owned bird dogs practically all my life. I started my "last" one 10 years ago and I expected Willy the Wirehair to be the end of the line. She's getting old now and so am I, but I'll probably get another after all...Geo
Posted By: GLS Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/17/16 08:17 PM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
. She's getting old now and so am I, but I'll probably get another after all...Geo
Someone here thought I was crazy training a bird dog at my age and that was 4-5 years ago. Wait a minute, it was you. And you were right! It is good to be nuts. smile Gil
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/18/16 03:36 PM
Back when Iowa was the #1 pheasant state in the nation (which it was for most of the 90's), a partner and I started a very small guiding business. Wild roosters only, over pointing dogs, private property. The guys we guided--all of whom were from somewhere east of Iowa--remarked on how lucky we were to have such great bird hunting. Over a beer or two one evening, my partner and I decided that it might have been part luck, but also part desire to live in a place where the bird hunting was that good.

Any of you guys in GA ever hunt woodcock? I'd imagine there must be some down that way in the winter.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/18/16 03:42 PM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Any of you guys in GA ever hunt woodcock? I'd imagine there must be some down that way in the winter.


Oh Lord. Now you are going to get GLS started. He is the only dedicated WC hunter I know in GA. He will cut his way into cane-breaks I would not allow my worst dog to get into; he even has armour plated vests for the dogs...Geo
Posted By: GLS Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/18/16 04:19 PM
Did I hear someone say woodcock in Georgia? wink Gil
Posted By: moses Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/18/16 09:05 PM
I get to shoot wild plenty.
It did once cost me $140 to shoot a frozen chicken.
That was a prize at a Christmas shoot at the clay club.
He make quite a good thick gravy.
O.M
Posted By: tw Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/19/16 04:59 AM
Gosh, some of you gentlemen are sure quick to turn a corner and take a remark down some unintended path.. or perhaps I was a dismal failure at a bit of truth based mirth, not that there were any real deviances excepting the part about birds off wires a from moving vehicle. Neither of the parties mentioned ever said they had done it, rather it was based on a remark one of them had made some years prior regarding difficulty levels.

Too, I hear and see all sorts of unending remarks about wild birds vs. pen raised. The ONLY real question once 'birds' or roosters are mentioned is how long until it goes off on some wild vs. penned tangent.

I'll be first to say that some pen raised birds had just as well have their necks wrung, get cleaned and packaged for consumption w/o bothering to try and get them to fly at all. Had a neighbor down the road many years ago who did just that; he liked to eat them, he'd loved to hunt them; he got old, he still liked to eat them.. so he got into the bird raising business, buying eggs and hatching them in incubators & raising them to the age of entre'. He never sold any, aside to some restaurants from time to time. No, I don't know the details, just that it happened. I even had a covey of sorts in the back on and off that were escapees from his activities and all I had in those days was a broke down barb wire back fence and hearing the birds call in his pens was a nice addition to bird noises and bird song in general for several years. If any of those birds even knew how to fly, they kept it a secret.

OTOH, I've shot flight-pen raised birds that were easily as good as any and indistinguishable from 'wild' birds and there have been occasions where we shot both. Before you ask, it is very easy to distinguish between them when the released or 'planted' birds are banded as required by law. Its much more than terrain & weather for strong pen raised birds in the field and a real flight pen is not small nor inexpensive; aside from sufficient footprint space [figure inside dimensions as 100'x300' minimum], it requires a great deal of netting and polled elevators, so the net may be lowered for both repairs and collection of birds to be utilized w/o hurting them. Too there is vermin and varmint control, need for daily fresh water, sometimes big vet bills, sometimes die-offs w/o warning that instantly accelerates the cost per/huntable bird, constant feeding expense until they are utilized &c. You'll not find many people today willing to go to the expense, let alone the daily upkeep necessary for strong flying fully developed birds & w/Pheasant you best get rid of the last of them prior to about late Feb. Because their sexual trigger is pulled by the amount [# of hours] of daylight their eyes are exposed to. That usually happens in early March and if allowed to happen prior to the roosters being used, they will fight & kill each other off until one last rooster is standing, blinders or not. So where am I going w/all this? Not far.

Wildlife is a precious commodity and virtually none of it remains w/o multiple persons and entities having invested time, sweat and monies to have wot we have today. It will require even more in the future. At the end of any day afield and on a very personal basis, it mostly gets down to, "Didja have fun?" Didja enjoy it?" Aside from wot silly stuff that happened w/dogs, friends & equipt... can you laugh at yourself?

How much did it cost? Common gentlemen(!),for many of us our real goal in life has never been much more complicated than as adults, we would like to be able to afford that same kinda enjoyment [real or imagined] that we had as kids for nothing. That shoe fits me perfectly. You may have dif. feats Likely why some scissor holes to accommodate carbuncles and where their frustration originates when they are discovered to be over two stories. Limits, ya know [math and I'll avoid it here].


Wanna talk cost? How about the first fish from a new boat? Wanna talk about reducing it? How about catching a cubic yard of minnows? Wanna talk about little expenditure for a few fish? How about a tin of sardines? If you had a new boat and had to buy a tin of sardines on the way back home after the fourth outing to say that you had any fish at all; could you laugh or would you start claiming it was a pleasure boat and too, there was the rather sensitive matter of which gender it identified with!? A placard near the head had been posted bearing the requisite wording plus "We draw the line w/mollusks; don't even think of using the poop deck!"
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/19/16 01:23 PM
Wingshooting is a lifestyle. It is an anachronism in this day and age.

If someone doesn't like dogs, and is in their 70's, Well, I never have seen a leopard change their spots. So, I respect a person's decision to not get involved with them.

I can't shoot pen raised quail for less than $6.00/bird. So, for $100.00 EVERY COUPLE WEEKS, I can whack away at a good pile of them. I can't speak for the day rate along the GA/FL line.

I can speak to the enormous amount of fun that can be had for a hundred bucks. Teaching a kid, working with someone else's dog, laughing about hits and misses,
and then of course
Pan fried quail, biscuits, and gravy.

I don't ever want to equate any of that with dollars and cents. But I respect that people do.
Like I said initially, as soon as a person does, they are all done with it.

When dinner and two drinks at Applebee's costs about $45.00, I don't think going to a preserve every so often is really all that expensive.

I suppose it's all relative though.

I offered a simple means by which to cloud over a modest wingshooting budget. A prepaid debit card can be filled with little indulgences. And as the card is being filled in the off season, every deposit signifies future possibilities of fun.

But overall, I can stand by my observation and belief, that when the cost of shooting worries a man, He quits doing it.
Posted By: GLS Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/19/16 01:27 PM
Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
Wingshooting is a lifestyle. It is an anachronism in this day and age.

If someone doesn't like dogs, and is in their 70's, Well, I never have seen a leopard change their spots. So, I respect a person's decision to not get involved with them.


.


"Outside a dog, man's best friend is a book. Inside a dog, it's too dark to read." Groucho. wink
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: Shooting and Not Shooting - 08/19/16 01:39 PM
Dogs are wonderful companions.
But, they don't always fit in. I've had quite a few that were re-homed because of fit problems. That's the nature of having animals.
Heck, Goldfish are a headache.

But the money anxiety isn't a problem that re-homing can fix.
It's best to not think about it too much.
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