To all of you who own Dickinson .410s, may I ask how they are choked? I know some are screw choked and some are not. I was given the choice when I ordered mine, and chose fixed chokes. They are .008" and .008".

Please tell us if yours has interchangeable choke tubes, or fixed. And if fixed, do you know what they measure?

Thanks. No deep research going on here, just curious.

SRH

8&8 Wow. I used tighter chokes than that when I was shooting registered Skeet. I did have a Skeetmaster tubes back in the 70's which were 7&7. I know you can shoot 3" .410 Roman Candles but what is you effective range 25-30 yards?

Or have you been getting lessons from one or more of our Texas shooting instructors? The ones who teach you the secret of killing birds without even the need of shot in your shells. Very impressive are their teaching skills I am told. If only they had a corespondents course I could take.

.008" patterns pretty snug in most .410s I've used. It worked very well last year on doves, even late season ones, with 11/16 oz. loads. I don't shoot at them out past 30 yds., with any .410, and I prefer 20 or less.

SRH

Fixed chokes on mine. I can't get my equipment into a ,410 bore but....I believe mine is I/M & Full.

Not a Dickinson, but I'm shooting .011" and .017" in my AOC/SG Uggie, and I wish they were a little tighter.

Stan I know constrictions do not directly translate into patterns but that is IC type chokes in a .410. I could see them being a light modified in use, but not much tighter than that.

The old double .410 I use, that was my late uncles, is choked .005, skeet and .030+ laser beam XXF. Worse it has trigger pulls of about 8 pounds and 3 1/2 pounds. It was choked that way and triggers altered that way by my late uncle. I suspect he never put the safety on when hunting alone and would rest his finger on the heavy first trigger but this is just a guess. I do remember him shooting the oddest triple one morning. A double on a covey flush, then as fast as he could reload he shot a cotton tail that made a dash for it.

Thanks, Lloyd. I bought one of these, but for much less money (I think it was around $40) to measure the .410s. It will reach in far enough to get past the choke so you can get a pretty accurate measurement of the constriction.

https://www.amazon.com/Internal-Dial-Caliper-1-375-Range/dp/B001CTJOJ6

I agree with that , KY Jon, and it seems to be tight enough for me on doves and quail if I watch my range closely, like you said your Dad used to do. My Yildiz .410 S X S is tighter, at .011" and .015". I have a Verona that I use for tournament sub gauge events that is choked .004" btm and .011" top. That works good for these events because there is invariably a bird that can be taken inside of 15 yards on nearly every station.

SRH

I highly suspect that .008" choke in a 4.410 would pattern more like a modified than I/C. Choke will I bel;ieve perform more according to % of reduction of the more than on actual Thousandths of an inch reduction. Based on percentage of reduction .008" in a .410 is equivalent to .015" in a 12ga. With modern day plastic wadding that is consider modified range.

I haven't taken the course for birds, but have seen this phenomenon 1st hand while deer hunting in TX. A friend was given a long sleek Weatherby rifle in .240 with a 20X plus power European scope. It was kept in a custom hand tooled leather slip with a retaining flap and strap. He had to keep it COMPLETELY covered, or the rifles mystical effect would take place. As the rifle was slid from its sheath, most deer in sight would fall over dead. Some of the younger deer would just get on their knees and beg for their lives. He had to be careful how many were in the group and their sex. The limit is 5.

Deer hunting isn't about a taught skill, it is about the equipment and how much you spend. Oh, and tactical equipment kills them deader. This year I'm using a Steyr SSGP4 with a detachable mag, suppressor and S&B with mil-dots.

Well, at least the last sentence is true.

Rule number one with a .410 is to never pattern it. If you do the magic will be gone forever and you will be forced to buy another one. Odd thing is that you can check it for POI but never notice the pattern. A very fine line.

Stan I know that .410 has been a lot of fun for you. I doubt a few thousands more constriction would make very much difference. If you limit your range as you do it will be like lighting to those poor dove.

We are about to get a cool spell here with lows down to 60 at night. I hope they don't drop much below that or we will get a lot of Doves migrating out of our area. Had this happen last year and a third to half our birds left a week before the season. Fun for those South of us but not for us.

I use .002 in Briley light weights for skeet. The patter is great at skeet range (22 yards), 30 inches and uniform and full!
bill

My Dickinson Estate .410 has factory marked M/M fixed chokes that measure .009/.009 with a dial caliper.

Interpretations of .410 full choke constriction seem to vary widely. Winchester had .017 in my M42s. My Ithaca ICD has .020. My Ugartechea had .025. A friend's 2 Perazzi guns had .036-.037.

I have a gun a previous owner opened the chokes to .000 and .010. I shot a lot of birds out pretty far with that cylinder bore. I believe the fact that I have very long forcing cones in that gun contributes greatly to the tight patterns.

Less choke = better patterns. The less crush inflicted on the shot string the fewer flyers, we polished forceing cones on 410 tubes and increased the BB count in a 30 inch circle by 25 and the percent by 15%

bill

Where on the gun are they marked, WS? I've never seen choke markings on mine.

SRH

Stan mine is fixed mod/mod as indicated by the 3 stars on each barrel forward of the flats. Works well for me.




Adam

Hi Adam,

I was wondering where you had been. Thanks, I hadn't read the manual and had not noticed the stars. I'll see what mine has, but I'll bet it's got three stars, too.

SRH

Chuck and Bill,

I have two guns on which I'd like to lengthen the cones and polish them, but they are both chrome lined, and I just hate messing with them. Have either of you ever cut any that were chrome lined?

SRH

Stan, I have not. But a high speed steel reamer will get trashed cutting it. A sharp HSS reamer that has been TiN coated should cut it. TiN is harder than chrome.

My 3" forcing cone reamer is simply a regular #8, 1/4" per ft taper pin reamer, with the forward chamber diameter O.D. ground (no clearance) on it. Something like this.
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/02402089


A custom cutter grinder should have a source ti TiN coat. Carbide would just be expensive as hell.

Chuck,

I just emailed Mike Orlen with that question. I will post his reply when I receive it.

Thanks, SRH

Updated my post with reamer specs above

Stan, mine are marked with 3 stars (Mod) just ahead of the barrel flats as shown by Adam. Is yours not stamped similarly?

For reference....

Just looked at mine in between hauling loads of corn to the bins. It has the three stars, too. Never noticed before. Thanks.

SRH

No .410 but I have a Dickinson, although it's a 12ga, and I still can't pull the triggers. Gotta get that fixed one day.

I do have a couple of .410 shotguns; an original Marlin Four-tenner that only shoots 2.5" shells and a Nitro Special. Full choke all around.

No doubt I could take a limit with one of them on opening day in a sunflower patch. However I just can't justify shooting wild game birds with what I consider to be less than adequate loads. I deem that to be 1oz. of shot. It is just a personal thing with me and I do not judge others for their choice of gun.

I've followed Stan's and others' results with their .410 and know better than to say it can't be effective. Still, I think I would cripple too many to suit my sensibilities...Geo

3 types of fluting common on taper pin reamers: Straight, Reverse Twist, Reverse Spiral. I've been using the reverse twist (middle) style to prevent chatter when hand reaming a forcing cone.





Example of plain HSS vs. TiN coated

It's not the total amount of shot that counts, Geo., it's the density at whatever range you limit yourself to. I can have greater density with a 11/16 oz. load at 25 yds. than some have with 1 oz. at 35-40 yds. Not being argumentative. I respect anyone who "errs on the side of caution".

All my best, SRH

Dang! Now I've got to count the stars on mine. If 3 is mod, what would full be, 5?

Probably goes the other direction...Geo

OK, exact opposite of Browning?

Thanks, Chuck. Haven't heard back from Orlen, yet.

SRH

Using a rudimentary choke gauge inserted into the muzzles, I determined that the right side is too-tight for Mod but less than full, so IM?. Left tube is clearly full choke. Not sure what the three stars are meant to designate but on my gun they are definitely not modified.

Do you have any idea what constriction they are in thousandths of an inch?

SRH

I wish I could, but I have no way to measure constriction as my equipment will not fit in a .410 bore.

.410 tubeset on the bottom, 28 on the top. No stars on the 28 gage set (choketubes). .410 forend is about 1/4-inch longer than the 28 forend. Proportioning is slightly different as well.

Interesting letter about the repair PISCO just did for me.



As I mentioned in another post, the triggers had devolved to approximately 6 1/2 lbs and 5 3/4 lbs of pull. I asked for 3 and 3 1/2. What I got back is pretty close to 3 3/4 lbs and 4 1/4. I can live with that.

The bores in my Dickinson are nowhere near .410. In fact, they measure .399" right and .398" left. So, just using a caliper to measure the muzzle I.D., then subtracting that from .410" won't tell you anything (unless your bores really are .410"). My other .410s are all over the place in bore diameters. The Yildiz is .400" and .399", and the Verona is .410" and .410". It seems the Turks aren't satisfied with building a "little gun", they want them to have undersized bores. If there was ever a gun that would be helped by overboring it would be the .410, IMO.

SRH

The Germans do the same thing, Stan.

Krieghoff = .4015 bore.

A call to them asking why resulted in no answer.

As for the chrome cutting... I once saw what Briley did to a perfectly good Ithaca/SKB extending the forcing cones. I'd skip that.

I can tell you one reason for the small bores.
When machining a bore, it is common practice to shoot for a dimension on the lower side of the tolerance. What that does is allows for maximum material to be left in case rework is necessary from a broken tool. AKA reduces scrap.

Say your machining a 20ga bore of .615 nominal with a tolerance of +/-.015. Most machinists would use the tolerance to their benefit, and shoot for .605. That leave .025 for any problems to be corrected yet still makes a good part.

Just the opposite on an OD. Leave it big yet still in tolerance.

By the way, you don't need a fancy dial bore gizmo to measure a 410.

A serviceable Chinese telescoping gauge set is about $20.

Mind you, this is not LS Starrett quality but it works just fine for this. Mine says $19.95 and I'm pretty sure it came outta Harbor Freight.

The trick is to measure the bore just behind the choke (or just before the recess if it's screw choked), torque it down and let it slide back down and out the breech (only necessary if there's choke, obviously). All the .410's I've measured (and admittedly it's only a handful) allowed the gauge to slide all the way back down and out the breech.

When evaluating the actual constriction of a screw choked barrel, don't forget the 'jug' effect of the necessary choke inlet. They all have this to some extent, and it's not a trivial factor. Thus, we find interchangeable chokes systems that shoot tighter than marked. A .020 12ga for instance after the jug effect is considered becomes a .025 or tighter. It's not just the modern wadding that makes new guns shoot tighter than the old timers.

Stan,
That may be your path to remove the chrome. Just backbore it to .410 or larger. I have one gun that is .420. Be sure to use a piloted reamer. A standard carbide chucking reamer of the desired bore diameter can be piloted to your current bore diameter easily by a cutter grinder, and an extension made to drive the reamer.

That is exactly what I was thinking Chuck. Still waiting to hear what Mike Orlen thinks about it.

SRH

Pretty sure Skeet's can ream chrome lined forcing cones. Great craftsmen there.

I've had 2 guns "honed" at Skeets. Both were full/Mod when they went in. They both came back with effectively no choke in one side and very little in the other barrel. Just my experience.

My apologies, Chuck. Just realized I forgot to thank you for the diagrams and photos of the reamers.

All my best, SRH

Could you post a link to yours ?A good-or good enough,bore gauge,especially small bore, should be in every gun buyers tool set.

My quick search found these-not small enough for 410

Inside Dial guage

and this one-looks close enough to the other.

AMZN Chinese Gauge

It's not a dial gauge, Dave.

Just a set of el-cheapo telescoping gauges that you lock, and then measure with a standard micrometer.

You gotta get them out of the bore to measure.

They work 'most' of the time. A recess choke would be a problem, and possibly require a dial gauge.

I can't justify a dial gauge in 410.

http://www.harborfreight.com/6-piece-telescoping-gauge-set-5649.html

Thanks, yours have the advantage of going deeper in the bore then the dial gauge I linked to.

I promised to report back after I got in touch with M. Orlen, and we talked this morning about lengthening the forcing cones on chrome lined barrels. He, at first, didn't understand my concern until I explained my question about whether or not the chrome plating would ever begin to peel after cutting through it in order to lengthen the cones. He explained that when naked steel is chromed it will never peel, if it is cut through or not. He said that car bumpers were not chromed directly to the steel itself, but that there were layers of nickel and copper between the steel and the chrome, thus the peeling you sometimes see with age.

He can't do any .410s for 5 weeks. He has sent his .410 tooling somewhere to be reconditioned, or something, and it won't be back for that long. I told him that would work out great, that I would shoot mine during the early and mid dove seasons and then send it to him to have the cones lengthened. I will also shoot some patterns on paper during that time and send them with the Dickinson, so that he can see what it is doing now, and we can compare the results after the cones are done.

I also questioned him about the .390" bores and he said not to be too concerned about that if the patterns are fairly decent now. The only patterns I have shot with it are on doves, so it will be interesting to see how it looks on paper.

All my best, SRH

Stan,
You need to get this book.

http://www.anglebooks.com/climbing-the-north-face-of-the-410-by-tim-woodhouse.html

The author is a .410 fanatic from England and he's done all kinds of work on ballistics/barrel geometry. It's not very polished, but it is interesting. I'm on the verge of selling everything .410 that I have including reloaders, components, ammo and guns. I already shoot 12, 16, 20 & 28 gauge and the little gun just doesn't entertain me enough. Maybe I should give it another chance.
Jeff

Contact me if you decide to do that, Jeff. I could always use some more .410 "stuff". Thanks for the info on the book, I'll look into it. Will be weilding the Dickinson .410 tomorrow afternoon. Both grandsons will be using 20s. Reports to come tomorrow evening.

All my best, SRH

Just a quick field report on a DT Dickinson Estate .410 28" purchased from a local gun club member "who did not like the heavy triggers" ( purchased from Cabelas originally ). Sent it off to Glenn Baker @ Woodcock Hill and recv'd it back with nice crisp 3.5# +/- pulls that were wonderful in the dove field yesterday. Planning on using it later this month for a rail hunt in South Jersey. Purchased as a beater, but I never thought a Turkish gun would deliver this kind of value for price.

Okay, Geo. There is your man for getting your trigger issues resolved.

SRH