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Posted By: LGF Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/24/16 08:39 PM
I am tempted to try BP for ducks this season, using brass shells in a Damascus hammer ten. Nice Shot appears to be unavailable, leaving bismuth or ITX-10.

Any advice from those with experience?
Posted By: oskar Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/24/16 09:05 PM
ITX 10 has worked well for me in my old 2.5" guns, 7/8 oz of 6's. It should work just as well in your BP shotgun. There is American E shot available also, much like bismuth but cheaper.





American E shot link

http://www.reloadingspecialtiesinc.com/Reloading_Specialties_Inc/New!_American_Shot.html
Posted By: skeettx Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/24/16 09:28 PM
Call me odd
I got a well used L.C. Smith 10 gauge hammerless Syracuse.
Alcan all brass hulls
Remington *57 primers
Single F Black powder
MEC 10 gauge steel shot wad trimmed to fit
MEC #3 steel shot
Over shot card
Elmer's glue
Does fine
Mike
Posted By: docbill Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/24/16 09:29 PM
What sort of prices are we talking about? There none quoted on their site.
Posted By: Flintfan Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/25/16 12:28 AM
If you plan on using only card wads (no plastic shot cups) with your black powder loads, I highly recommend using only bismuth. All other non-toxic shot, other than steel, contains tungsten in some form. Even if the pellet is claimed to be soft, i.e. it can be crushed, the tungsten that it contains will be abrasive to your barrel.

If you don't plan on shooting more than a hand full of rounds during a hunting season, this is probably a so what. If you plan on shooting hundreds or thousands of rounds, there is potential for erosion of your chamber and chokes.
Posted By: Demonwolf444 Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/25/16 09:00 AM
I plan on experimenting with black powder and pure copper shot for this season in the UK
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/25/16 11:49 AM
The problem with copper is that it is between Bismuth and Steel on the low end of density. Plus it must be annealed to be soft enough not to score barrels. Then the price is a little high at $2.00 a pound. It might work as a lead shot replacement but I'd rather use Bismuth if you can get it.
Posted By: randy Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/25/16 03:30 PM
I have two recipes that I use for a couple of old Parkers:

12g. Federal paper 2 3/4, 17g Red Dot, CB 1100 wad, 1oz lead. ~5000 psi

16g Cheddite 2 3/4 plastic, 19g Solo 1250, SG16 wad, 1 oz lead. ~7100 psi

Could bismuth be substituted (volume due to weighing a little less than lead) directly?
Posted By: TwiceBarrel Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/25/16 03:43 PM
Originally Posted By: randy
I have two recipes that I use for a couple of old Parkers:

12g. Federal paper 2 3/4, 17g Red Dot, CB 1100 wad, 1oz lead. ~5000 psi

16g Cheddite 2 3/4 plastic, 19g Solo 1250, SG16 wad, 1 oz lead. ~7100 psi

Could bismuth be substituted (volume due to weighing a little less than lead) directly?


As long as you keep the shot charge at or less than 1 ounce you will be OK. If your shot charge is less than 1 ounce due to volume difference your chamber pressure will be slightly less and your MV will be slightly higher.

By the way where are you finding Solo 1250. I haven't seen any available for a couple of years?
Posted By: randy Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/25/16 03:48 PM
That is good, I can run the bismuth through the same charge bar, without changing anything. Would I have to be concerned about a "squib" round?
Posted By: TwiceBarrel Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/25/16 04:00 PM
Originally Posted By: randy
That is good, I can run the bismuth through the same charge bar, without changing anything. Would I have to be concerned about a "squib" round?


I would recommend weighing your shot charge and removing only enough shot to get a good crimp or changing wad to a Gualandi 1618 wad for your 16 gauge to accommodate the increased volume and not rely on volume measurement alone. Squib loads are usually attributed to reduced powder drops not lighter shot charge weight.
Posted By: Paul Harm Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/25/16 04:08 PM
Maybe you already know but Damascus barrel guns can be shot with nitro loads. I have three 10ga Damascus guns and shoot modern 3 1/2" shells cut to 2 7/8, or whatever you want. The brass shells and BP does sound really nice if that's what you like. I'm a old BP shooter and keep a couple of boxes loaded up for fun.
Posted By: randy Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/25/16 04:23 PM
I agree with you Paul, I am usually more concerned with recoil and cracking the wrist of the stock of the 110 to 120 year old doubles!
Unfortunately, I have had that experience
Posted By: LGF Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/26/16 01:11 AM
Thanks to all for the input. Flintfan, thanks for confirming what I had read about tungsten-based shot. Paul, I am familiar with nitro for black loads but would like to use BP.

Should buffer be used in BP bismuth loads?
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/26/16 01:57 AM
Only if you want to really tighten up the patterns. But, know that the addition of buffer will raise your chamber pressures.

SRH
Posted By: Demonwolf444 Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/26/16 01:29 PM
Originally Posted By: KY Jon
The problem with copper is that it is between Bismuth and Steel on the low end of density. Plus it must be annealed to be soft enough not to score barrels. Then the price is a little high at $2.00 a pound. It might work as a lead shot replacement but I'd rather use Bismuth if you can get it.


Copper shot is softer than TMX and TM, steel and hevi shot, your only other options are niceshot or bismuth,



Nice shot is about 80 / KG here. - Each cartridge has 2.40 worth of shot in it assuming 30 gram loads.

Busmith is running at 61 / KG - each cartridge has 1.80 worth of shot.

ITX is harder than copper and thats 50/ KG - which mean a 30 gram cartridge is 1.51 worth of shot.

Copper is 18.40 / KG - making each cartridge cost 0.55 pence next to steel copper is the most cost effective - Im going to experiment with a card shot cup - im not convinced there will be any scoring to barrels - iron is much harder than copper surely?

brinell hardness scale below shows different hardness's of shot materials - if anyone knows what the hardness of your average Damascus barrel is that would be helpful but its very clear why hevishot - steel and tungsten iron are unsuitable.

Edit - Apparently cast iron has a brinell of about ~ 220..

Copper per cartridge is nearly 1/3rd the cost of bismuth - i am sure i could cope with annealing enough for 10 - 15 cartridges if its saving me over 1 per cartridge to do so.



The real answer is to get a gun that shoots steel.

Steel shot can be at at 2.50 /kg - Each cartridge has 0.07 pence of shot in it.

( Graphs from the following link: http://pointingdogblog.blogspot.co.uk/2015/05/pure-copper-shot.html )
Posted By: randy Re: Black powder and nontoxic shot - 08/26/16 05:15 PM
The Solo 1250 is a couple of years old, when it is used up I will be looking for another recipe. I have not seen it, nor SR7625, nor PB in quite a while. I have buddies who go to a lot of gun shows but do not reload looking for me. Sometimes I get lucky


I did find two 1 pound containers of SR7625 at a small gun show this afternoon in Columbia.
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