I know, the 20 ga. will do anything the 16 will do, but why did the 16 (and when) did it drop off the market? To me, it's a perfect gauge gun and in a well-made gun, a perfect frame size.

I also realize this has been a field that's pretty well plowed, but then, it's been a slow week.

I say this owning only one 16 gauge gun and realize shells for the guns while not exactly rare are not available as easily as the 12 and 20.

Back when I was in highschool, every young man in my class wanted to own a Browning Sweet 16. What happened? Is there any hope of the 16 making a staggering comeback?

What killed the 16 gauge?

The Gun Makers and Ammunition makers primarily as they were able to consolidate their lines by introducing the ill begotten 20 gauge magnum as a "modern alternative". The gun and ammunition makers had (and still do) had a willing accomplice in the gun writers of the day. Additionally the 16 gauge was not helped by the fact that there was not a separate class in skeet shooting for the 16 gauge although the 16 was acceptable in the 12 gauge class it was generally ignored in favor of the 12.

In this era, in my opinion it is steel shot and the lack of ammunition selection.

If you look at the 12 and 20 gauge, there are lots of choices in type of ammunition and shot sizes. Go into Bass Pro or Gander Mountain or any other "big box" store and you will find 16 gauge, but often it is either good quality #6 or 8, or economy grade. Very few even carry steel in 16 gauge.

The lack of readily available non-steel choices of non-toxic shot also hurts it. Sure you can get Bismuth, but it is a mail order proposition for the most part.

I don't think it is dead, as many have proclaimed over the years. New shooters discover it every day. It is my personal favorite. Browning keeps it alive here in the USA, and RST keeps us stocked with quality ammunition for vintage guns.

I would like to see Remington re-introduce the classic, "Shur-Shot" load in 16 gauge. Most of the loads I find in the stores are high-brass or Federal Magnum loads, which really are not needed for the gauge.

As far as the lack of ammunition goes ....... which came first, the chicken or the egg? IOW, did the lack of ammunition come about because of the decline in popularity of the 16, or did the 16 "fall out of favor" because of a lack of ammunition? IMO, it is the former.

I think gun writers helped the decline along, whether by commiseration or not, I don't know. Today, there are a huge number of hunters who want one gun to do it all, especially younger hunters. It makes no sense to buy a 16 for that. A 12 will do it all, literally. No other gauge is as suited for all types of hunting as the 12. Waterfowl, upland, deer, clays ...... It can handle anything. A 16 is a handicap for a man who wants that. How many 16 Brit guns do you see?, even fewer than American. Is that because of some conspiracy? Of course not. It is simply because the Brits recognized that the lightweight 12 game gun is a superior instrument for upland.

IMO, as much as I enjoy my 16s, they will never return to their former glory.

SRH

You can soup up a 20 or dumb down a 12 to do what a 16 does. You can not soup up a 16 to do what a heavy 12 load can do. I think they missed a marketing opportunity in the 16. They could have defined it's roll, the 16, as "the upland game gun", the 12 as the heavy hitter for wild fowl, geese, turkeys and with the odd deer thrown in. The 20 could have been presented as the charming small gauge for small birds that the 28 now holds. Each with a clear roll and each could be very good at that roll.

But perhaps it is too late for that now. With gun sales heavily skewed for the last fifty years the break down is most likely 70% 12, 20% 20, 1% 16,and 3 % each 28 and .410. So the total market is not there for the sale of 16 ammo to replace the 20 because there are not enough guns waiting for ammo. And ammo makers do look at production numbers to anticipate future sales of ammo needs. Hence not many 16 made in the last 50 years, not much anticipated need for large volumes of ammo.

I just wish Winchester would bring back the compression formed 16 hulls. If they did that they could dominate the 16 market, for new ammo sales, and re-loaders could have a good source of easily reloaded hulls that would last a long time. Having a secure supply line of those hulls would bring a lot of old guns out of hiding.

I have 20-16-12 gauge doubles and enjoy them equally because they all perform satisfactorily, none better than the other, in the blind over decoys. Reloading obviates supply, market and pressure limitations. Each gauge gets its turn to do what they were made for: to bring pleasure to the shooting sports, blinds or afield. I've never felt handicapped with the 16s, Parker hammer 0 grade and elegant Sauer Model 8.

Back when I did a lot of deer hunting, I killed more with a 16 gauge Ithaca 37 than any other gun, gauge or caliber.

All good points brought up. I think it is now somewhat of a novelty or nostalgic piece. It will always have the dedicated following, and the new discovery shooter who inherited one, but it will never re-claim its past. But what does?

The ammo issue is always brought up, and yes- it can be hard to find a box of 16 anything in Wally World, or much of a selection anywhere else. OP I think has been addressed, with lack of a specific skeet class, and many younger hunter/shooters wanting a "one and done" gun. In my younger days, I chased roosters with a 20 gauge Beretta BL4. I shot 1 1/4 oz magnums, and to a degree, perceived recoil was mitigated by the excitement of the flush. As time went by, I learned of patterns, shot columns, and the optimum load for a particular bore. I still vividly recall the first time a 16- a sxs- was put in my hands. I had gone to the old Flatwater for the first time, and had brought a 20 ga Beretta Gold Pigeon, and my turkey/waterfowl gun (the only two smoothbores I owned). Guns were freely passed around at that gathering, and the instant I held that Grulla it was all over. Call me a big Goldilocks, at 6 ft. , 200 lbs, and no gloves on the planet big enough for my hands- the 20 is too small, the 12 too big, the 16 just right.

I have shot London best lightweight short 12's. Nothing feels like a sleek 16 in my hands. Gun sales indicate I am in a small minority. I don't care. I can't easily get the 3/4 oz loads that most often fill the chambers, so I roll my own.

A neighbor is awaiting delivery of a 20 ga that he is going to use to introduce his daughter to hunting/ shooting. The lightest readily available load is 7/8 oz. If he wants lighter loads, he will probably have to reload or pay a premium.

I am with KY Jon, in that where the 16 shines is the uplands, which comprises most of my hunting- carried more than shot. I also shoot targets with it, and find 3/4 oz sufficient to handle most realistic presentations, If of course I do my part.

So do please continue to tout the 12, and bemoan the lack of fare for the deposed queen of the uplands- less competition for her, especially those quirky French round actions with the inferior steel.

Mike

After 30 + years of happily shooting a pair of 20 Ga. BSS SxS’s, I discovered a 16 Ga. #2 AyA. I had mounted the gun and swung it around the store before I discovered that it was the “dreaded” 16 Ga. Prior to that time I had never considered a 16 gauge.

I asked the clerk if they had a 20 and they did. The 16 felt much better whereas the 20 felt whippy. The AyA weighs a full pound less than my beloved 20’s and I believe that an ounce of shot is adequate for most upland bird hunting.

I think that it is the combination of gun and gauge that has caused me to forsake my 20’s and don’t doubt that somewhere there is a 20 Ga. SxS that would feel as good as the AyA. A 16 Ga. built on a 12 Gauge frame is not a gun I would choose.
I use my 16 for all upland bird hunting and shoot reloads with the ejecta ranging from ¾ oz. to 1 1/8 oz.


I discovered that available 16 Ga. ammo was expensive, lacking in load choices and availability when compared to either 20 or 12 gauge ammunition. Not a problem, because I reload.

I stumbled upon all brass hulls from Rocky Mountain Cartridge, which opened up a reloading choice bonanza. One hull suitable for any gauge specific published load for straight walled hulls.

I have ben reloading since I was 19 years old and I have never had better patterns than the RMC hulls and the AyA produce.

During my lifetime of upland bird hunting, I have never been happier with a gun and it’s gauge. Below are my pheasant loads of 1 oz. of #6 shot and 1 1/8 oz. of # 5 1/2 shot. Same approximate pellet count, but the 5 1/2 shot gives a little more down range effectiveness.

I got over the 16 a long time ago. Had plenty of them in various sxs's, one Parker GH that was especially nice. But I don't miss it or any of the others. The few 20 ga. guns I have serve when I want a slimmer, lighter shotgun for doves, which is the only gamebird I pursue anymore.

The 16 ga. has been moribund for many years, yet straggles along because of the few shooters remaining who just like something different, and because there are still some really nice 16 ga. two-row shotguns floating around out there. Also, Browning seems determined not to leave it out of their line, with Winchester family ties for shells a contributing factor on that as well.

Uncle Stan has one I like a lot, a field grade L. C. Smith with 32" tight-choked barrels and ejectors and good dimensions. A genuine long-range puffer.
JR

Tell him about these. they are great, and even with shipping, still reasonable:
http://www.gamaliel.com/pc_product_detail.asp?key=D85561AE98714571B344079757E13965&
JR

I shoot 16ga 90-95% of the time for upland and clays. If I start waterfowl again I will shoot 16 more often than not.

That said 16 has become an affectation. Something that sets some apart from others. Similar to my monolithic love of SxS.

The market forces today guarantee 16 will stay marginalized. It will never "come back." However, it will not disappear either.

I had thought a few years back that non toxic might not do well in the smaller gauges to the extent 16 might get another look. That has not shown to be the case.

It's an affectation to the extent we draw attention from others to ourselves but not consciously contrived behaviour if the shooter see no distinction between gauges for the mission i.e. anything within 25-30 yards or, here or in Kansas, size of hoe for weeding beets. I don't think of discriminating use of the 16 as affectation in that sense. I'm alone most of the time anyway as I imagine you are on the prairies.

Old Colonel wrote, "That said 16 has become an affectation. Something that sets some apart from others. Similar to my monolithic love of SxS."

I certainly have an affection for my AyA and after thinking about it, I have concluded that the reason for my preferences are associated with refining my upland bird hunting.

I shoot my AyA better than I did my BSS's and the differences are the AyA carries better, has been fitted to me and definitely patterns better; therefore I'm happier with the AyA. Happiness is an important part of the equation regardless of gauge or gun.

I got the 16 ga bug about 10 years ago with a Jap made Sweet Sixteen. That gun was so-so in handling and weight.
I graduated to a high end citori and recently added a Merkel SxS.
I shoot both quite well and will be hammering doves with the Merkel, next week.
If I couldn't reload for it, I likely would not keep the guns. Ammo is fairly easy to find, cause I live close to cabelas, but except for light clays loads (herters) its pricey.
Its a fun gauge. Necessary? No, but I enjoy trying different guns and gauges. If I didn't I'd still be shooting that 1968 Winchester 1200, no rib, fixed full choke 12 ga.

Those not wishing to reload for the 16 now have another option: Herters 1 oz loads, available from Cabela's. Usually around $6/box; a little less when Cabela's has them on sale.

I'm currently field testing one of the new A-5 Sweet 16's from Browning. 3 rounds of skeet the other day, with the IC choke tube in place. Shooting low gun: 24-23-24. Mine tips the scale at 5/15. I was a fan of the original Sweet 16, but never carried it afield because a 16 that weighs right around 7# (you're unlikely to find an old one under than unless it has a plain 26" barrel) doesn't make a lot of sense to me. This gun does. Function was perfect . . . once I realized that the through bolt hadn't been properly tightened. Borrowed one for a couple rounds from fellow writer Phil Bourjaily a few weeks ago. Discovered with that one that RST's, either 3/4 or 7/8 oz, wouldn't cycle it. But no worries, because there's no real issue with recoil from the 1 oz loads in that gun. Tomorrow I'm going to try a few 1 1/8 oz loads, just to see how they feel.

The gauge has seen somewhat of a resurgence in popularity. You can get a BPS 16ga as well as the A-5, if you're into magazine guns. And you see a higher % of Spanish 16's these days than 30 years ago. In addition to really light sxs like Merkel's 1620. And looking at data from the Loyal Order of Dedicated Grouse Hunters, 30 years ago vs currently, there's been a bit of an uptick in the gun's popularity.

I'll be doing an article on doing it all with one gun--if by ALL you mean all upland hunting--later this year. It'll be based on my experiences with this A-5, plus my hunting notes from several years ago when I did nearly all my hunting, from woodcock to pheasants, with a Poli sxs I'd had Briley fit with choke tubes. That's one I wish I still had.

I only hunt with 16 ga, not to be "different", but because it suits me best. I almost always use 1 1/8 oz loads with game appropriate shot size. As an exception, I used 1 1/4 oz #2 in a cyl bore o/u in Germany for hare(and if a pheasant flushed). I also started with a Sweet Sixteen(Belgian). No regrets whatsoever.
Mike

Be glad the Poli's gone, Larry. It would be in the shop somewhere awaiting repair.

The new "A5" 16 from Browning is very light, by all accounts, including yours. A 6 lb. gun is difficult for me to shoot well, 6 1/2 being about my lower limit. I suppose some who need three shots and walk with their gun a lot will find it useful enough, though much longer than a sxs or o/u, the price paid for an autoloader's third shot.

Don't really know what the appeal for this gun is other than an oddball grouse/pheasant gun.
JR

When I was a kid starting out with a 16 sxs blne I fell in love with gauge and through more 16's than I now remember I have stuck with it.

I did have a sweet sixteen auto which was not pretty, but I shot it well, a buddy shot it well too and he now has it.

Thanks for that, John. I've forwarded it.

Mike

In my view the key to enjoying the 16GA is a Scaled action. Properly scaled actions are quite rare. Too expensive to produce for the manufacturer. The 16-on-a-12 is a waste in my view. Impossible to enjoy the lithe and nimble handling of a weapon in the ga.

My first and only smoothbore for many years was an 870 in 16 field configuration that belonged to my grandfather. Through the years I have worked up to a Second hand DMB round action in 16. The ga is just a joy to hunt grouse and quail. The quality of workmanship of the arm adds to the enjoyment of the hunt and the ga.

No kidding! LOL. And my Ferrari makes the trip to the grocery store just a little less boring.

16 gauge is an anachronism four times removed or a 4th degree anachronism. The owners are anachronisms more or less. We're either fading boomers or soon to be. Most of us hunt, another waning way of life, vilified by many, enjoyed and pursued by fewer per capita than before. Then there is the doublegun aspect. We treasure and use guns many of which haven't been in production for over a century. Among us who treasure the doublegun are the lovers of 16 gauges. The first gun I bought with earned money was a Sweet 16. I no longer have it, but have a half dozen 16 gauge doubles that were made between 110 and 75 years ago and a handful of pumps in 16 gauge between 67 and 53 years old. I never want for ammo as I have flats of shells and components and tools to reload. I prefer 16, but not for turkeys. For turkeys, I use smaller gauges. Are 16 gauges better than other gauges? I won't say that, but I like it better than other gauges for my purposes.
Gil

Gil when you put it like that, it just makes me want to double down on 16's!

When that 12 comes back from Chris you can just bring it with you in October, and leave it in my care- out of sight and out of mind. In return for storage and handling (probably more of the latter than the former), I will allow you to be tutored by yours truly in the search, acquisition, and inordinate spending associated with the elusive round action French 16.

Your good friend,
Mike

Mike, I thought that tutelage was already underway. I mean the inordinate spending part.

I was a bit naturally gifted in that area, spending far more per gun than will ever be returned but you have opened my eyes to a whole new way to blow money on my guns.....extra barrels sets and all that goes with that!

Gil, please god one of your half dozen is 1889 Parker 0 grade. They come up by themselves. Only need to pull the trigger.

I made a mistake providing it to a son for his first hunt. First shot he killed cleanly a crossing black which I gave a pass as too far.

His hunting instincts went down after that, assuming all sports should include reasonable skills. Disappointing to me.

I'll take a three barrel 16 gauge to the field this fall. It is by Morian of Paris. The three triggers take a bit of concentration, and a triple on Huns or sharpies is yet in my dreams, but it's fun to try. I think it might be a bit difficult to make a light and useable three barrel shotgun in a larger gauge, but I have seen a few.

Daryl, you win. What a cool gun. Weight? Gil

Gil, it's 7# 6 oz, 27 1/2" tubes, and upper tubes are Damascus with the lower tube being fluid steel. Locks are two sidelock with a trigger plate lock for the lower tube.

That's cool X 10, Daryl, and beautiful to boot. How'd you like to show up on a really good dove shoot with one of those, Gil? Wouldn't that be fun?

Thanks for posting that!

SRH

Daryl, wow

You continue to contribute to my sin of envy.

Neat gun

So Daryl, what's the trigger sequence for that beauty? Front-Right, middle-left and rear-bottom, or did they mix things up to help with the confusion?

Cameron, you are correct with the trigger sequence. Somehow, it is just hard to get the third trigger pulled. I had a bit better luck pulling the rear trigger first, then switching to the front.

Looks like the trigger spacing might be a little cramped if one needed to wear gloves on a winter hunt. Otherwise, very neat.

Larry, I don't hunt in the rain, and I don't hunt when it's cold, but the spacing of triggers would be a good excuse for no triples if one wanted to hunt with gloves.

I've got an old Parker with double triggers. Something over 100 years old, Damascus barrels. At the SClays range (now closed) a guest wanted to shoot the gun to day he'd shot a gun over 100 years old.

His guns had single triggers and he couldn't train himself in the few times he shot it to switch triggers.

All my shotguns have twin triggers. I wouldn't have it any other way. Now, three triggers? And three barrels? How much extra weight would that be?

An Extra Trigger shouldn't add much Weight.

What a wonderful shotgun

Daryl--

I am beyond envy--

I will send you very thick gloves and rain gear if you send me the 3-barrel!!!

Lovely


Berrien

I love the three barrel shotgun.

I have an affection for three barrel shotgun/rifle combos and the 16ga is perfect for them.

1926 Wilkes drilling 16ga/16ga/6.5 x58R Sauer, one of my favorite coyote hunting guns. 2.5" handloads with 1 oz of NP BB's or 2's.



I have a Mec 600 16ga set up with a short shell kit. 3/4oz of ITX 6's for waterfowl and 3/4 oz Lead 8's for clays and a good supply of Brenneke 2.5" slugs

I dug out my one and only 16 gauge to show off. A Stevens 235. It's an ugly duckling compared to the beautiful guns pictured. I suspect it put quail, rabbit, squirrel and maybe a duck or two on some family table back in the depression days.

I've not shot it - yet. Having more time, yesterday I bought a box of Magtech brass. I've corrected primer pocket problems with the brass and getting ready to load. The old gun has an easily repairable hair line crack in the buttstock behind the action. I need to get some Acraglas to make that repair before I shoot it.

It feels like a toy compared to my big 10 gauge shotguns.

Oskar, do you use any f these recipes for the ITX?

HULL: FIOCCHI 16-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: IMR 800X 20.0 Grains
WAD: Z16 (Mica dust the wad) +1/8 cork 20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: N716 card on top of shot
Result: PSI 8300 FPS 1270

Load# 110418-2979
HULL: FIOCCHI 16-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: HODGDON INTERNATIONAL CLAYS 18.0 Grains
WAD: Z16 (Mica dust the wad) +1/8 cork 20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: N716 card on top of shot
Result: PSI 8300 FPS 1280

Load# 110418-2980
HULL: FIOCCHI 12-gauge 2.5”
PRIMER: FIO616
PROPELLANT: IMR SR7625 20.0 Grains
WAD: Z16 (Mica dust the wad) +1/8 cork 20 in wad base
SHOT: 3/4 ounce (328 grains) ITX#6/#4
BUFFER: none
ROLL CRIMP: N716 card on top of shot
Result: PSI 6800 FPS 1130

Bibbyman, I would love to own a 16 like that one.

Thank goodness for the lowly stepchild sixteen gauge. It allowed me to pick up a wonderful straight hand, two trigger, SxS for half the price listed for the same gun in the Cabela's gun room.

The fellow bought it new and discovered that the local gun shop would not offer him much when we went to sell it. They simply did not want it sitting on the self for years waiting for the right buyer.

I was in the right place at the right time. I shoot a 1 oz. load for skeet and love it.

I once bought a 16 under similar circumstances, RPr. In college, I happened upon some classmates looking at a shotgun. One guy said it was for sale, but no one there made him an offer. He said he was going to the pawn shop in town to sell it. I asked to ride along, and he agreed. He had no price in mind for the Remington 11-58, and said he would take whatever the pawnbroker offered him for it. It was a clean, little used gun so I "made him an offer he couldn't refuse". "Whatever he offers you for it, say "No", and I'll give you five dollars more". He agreed and the pawnbroker offered him $30. He declined and as we were leaving I told him he had $35 coming for it. The shop owner heard me, cussed us both out and ran us out the door. I called home that afternoon, got Dad to wire me the cash, and I brought it home that Friday afternoon.

Nothing like being in the right place at the right time.

SRH

I sold a gun that didn't fit me that way. Was talking trade at the gun shop when a guy showed up looking for a gun. Asked if he could look at mine. We completed the deal around the corner. Worked out OK for the shop as well, because I used what I got for mine to cover most of the price on the gun I bought from them.

I like L.C. Smiths and have a few 16 gauges. They are all short chambered 2 9/16". A few years ago you could find Kent game loads in 16 ga. 2 1/2" which I bought at Cabela's. I then decided to reload my own but could not find any loads for the pie crimp 2 1/2", so I roll crimped them and just used the 16's for hunting.
Now there are recipes for Cheddite 2 1/2" hulls 6 crimp that are a pleasure to load especially with the new primed hulls you can buy.

About 7 years ago Cabela's near me had a Fabrique Nationale d"Armes 16 ga. 30" Krupp Steel barrels, lt. mod and imp.mod, side clips, greener cross bolt and monte carlo stock. Gun weighs 6 lbs. 2 ozs, Gun was underpriced in my opinion. This became my go to gun for bird hunting.

Thought I would add another gun that I used for bird hunting, a 16 ga. F grade L.C. Smith. This picture was the first time I had used this gun. I received it in parts and put it back together. It needed a stock and I was lucky to find one. So being the first time I shot this, the first bird that my friend's Brittany pointed, I missed it with the first shot and got it with the second. The next bird I got on the first shot, and upon opening it, the left barrel was fired. What the heck, tried it again with an empty and sure enough front trigger fired left barrel. Come to find out when I got home that the left barrel was opened more than the right, hence front trigger left barrel. I wonder if some previous owner was left handed. It is still that way now, left it alone.

The LC Smith 10 gauge I just repaired the buttstock on also, in my limited testing, shoots a much tighter pattern with the right barrel.

The triggers are on the conventional sides. The Cowboy Action Shooters sometimes swap sides with the triggers thinking it makes trigger transportation faster. I use two fingers so I don't have to worry about at split second.

I'm thinking that a David McKay Brown in any gauge would be a joy to hunt with. When you get to that level of quality does it really matter what gauge?

I have a 16 gauge H Grade Lefever with 28" "London Twist" barrels. It is post 1907 as it carries the 1907 patent date on it. Both barrels are full choke so un-cut. Amazing thing is it has 3" chambers by actual measurement.
After discovering this length chamber my first thought was WHY would anyone rechamber a 16 to 3". My 2nd thought after thinking about it a bit was it was far more likely to have been "Ordered" this way when new, t5han to have been rechambered. In spite of being built on the XX frame it has rather heavy barrels & weighs in @ 6 3/4 lbs. As 3" hulls were available to order when this gun was new it was likely ordered this way to give a better wad column with the full ounce load which was commonly the max shot weight for a 16 of that era for use as a waterfowl gun, thus the two full chokes.
The main difference I can see on this XX frame is it has a slightly narrower bar than my non XX frame Lefevers. This gives it a good proportion with the 16ga barrels. It handles very well & would be much more useful for me if not so tightly choked, but I do not want to destroy it's originality by opening them.

Heck Miller just load up some spreader loads and get that old Girl back to doing what she was built for. At first I was skeptical but I'm getting modified choke performance with my tight barreled Fox guns and there have been no indications of blown patterns.