Back in February, about the time of my knee replacement, I was invited on a Pheasant hunt in South Dakota in November. (Seemed like a good idea at the time) Had not considered that I would have to fly with my gun. Turns out the outfitter provides all the shells, 2 ¾ inch 3 ¾ dram 1 ¼ oz. Rios with #6 shot. I am considering three options: 1. BPS 12 ga, which I can remove the stock and it will fit in Ziegel take down case. 2. 686 Beretta Black Onyx, (two triggers but weighs 8# or more.) 3. LC Smith, Ideal, straight grip, double trigger ejector gun choked I/C I/M. It is a lightweight model and only weighs 6 ½ pounds. The BPS, the most practical, the 686 a bit heavy, and the LC Smith should be just right. I doubt with a three bird limit I will shoot enough for recoil to be an issue since it has a thick orange red pad on it. (Silvers?) My question, will say a box or so of these shells be an issue for the gun?

Tyler,
I, like you would want to shoot the LC Smith. Sounds like a nice gun.

There is no way I'd shoot that load if it were mine.
Recoil on you may not be a problem. Recoil on the stock would be a real concern for me. 1-1/4oz @ 1250 or 1330 and 6.5lbs?

Is it mandatory that you use their shells? Can you contact the guide and suggest a substitute that you are comfortable with and explain the situation? Maybe it is the perfect occasion/excuse for another SXS.

When I had a 1921 LC Smith featherweight, it did not like over the counter target loads. I think I used Federals a couple of times, but it would hang up on them after firing making the gun difficult to open. If that is the only gun you decide to bring, just make sure it is alright with whatever loads you are going to use before you get out there. That gun was always fine with Polywads. Perhaps you could just ship him some low pressure loads purchased directly?

My 7 lb 30 inch 1 Frame GH Parker 7/8 oz at 1150 for clays most of the time. Little bit of hunting I do with it 1 oz 1150 feet. Lightest published Alliant 1 oz load. Extra 1/8 oz is noticeable but no problems. It's digested thousands of mild loads, heavy fast Rios, too heavy for my SxS guns.

Get RST to ship some reasonable loads directly to the outfitter.

Boats

I wouldn't use the LC - they like to crack behind the locks and IMHO you'd be inviting that with those loads. That, and I don't like recoil. If yours has a lot of drop to the stock, say 2 3/4 or 3" DAH, your nose or cheek will let you know in a hurry. All my SxS's have about 3" DAH and I only shoot 7/8oz or less. Good luck on your hunt.

+1

Since you have plenty of time before your hunt why not order some RST light loads and have RST ship them to your outfitters address?

If it is of help, I hunt pheasant in SD every year. Pretty much all you can buy at Cabelas is geared to heavy fast loads like your outfitter is providing. Last year I shot Herter's 1 ounce of 6's at about 1100'/ second in a 16 gauge, mod & full and found it was deadly on them. Don't fall for the hype. If you miss the bird an extra 1/4 ounce won't help.

builder had a good idea. You also have time to let a good gun smith that knows L.C. Smiths to glas-bed the stock.

You can bet your Dixie ass they will- L.C. Smiths, whether R framed or FW, pre-1913 or post 1913 mfg. go with heavy loads that belong in a Model 12 Winchester like STP goes with George Dickel. Ask any good LC Smith gunsmith, like my friend Buck Hamlin, what he thinks- the heavy recoil pad on your Smith may save your shoulder, but not the fragile wood inlettd into the locks and tang areas. Bad idea, Suh!!

If it was my gun I wouldn't have a care in the world shooting those loads out of a LC Smith. I would be more worried about the airline screwing it up or outright losing it.

But it ain't my gun.

Runs, this is what Buck shoots out of his L.C. Smith's for turkeys.
http://www.lcsmith.org/albums/hunting/index0.html
Especially look about the 16th one down. Looks lite to me!!!!!!!!!!

Running those kind of loads thru a vintage L C Smith would IMO be equivalent to installing a modern V8 Chevy into a 40 Ford with the original closed driveline. You would be asking for a disaster. The 40 Ford conversion? Ask me how I know this!
Jim

Yup- but two factors enter the picture. Buck is a snipr- "One shot-One kill" the Dixie dude is talking multiple shots for pheasants- also, Buck has glass bedded the stocks on his Smiths and LeFevers in the same manner in which Antonio Stradavari built his fiddles-- Good foto of Buck, by the way.

29 grains of Blue Dot under 1 5/8 oz of shot is a lite powder charge. Most listed loads with this shot charge in a 3" hull using Blue Dot are around 38-40 grains depending on exact hull, wad, primer etc. Sounds as if Buck may be following the old W Greener axiom, Little Powder, Lot of Lead, Shoots Far, Kills Dead. It certainly doesn't appear though that Buck is Babying his Smiths. Was this gun originally chambered for 3" shells??
I do recall reading an account once of Buck taking an old beat up Hammer Smith, rechambering it for 3½" shells. He began with maximum loads using Blue Dot & went up from there. He quit when the gun began opening itself with every shot but did not succeed in breaking anything. Most of these old American doubles are pretty Tough old Girls, with the biggest concern usually being the Wood.

Buck Hamlin’s Lefever destructive testing, courtesy of Tom Archer
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=422672&page=2

Buck Hamlin was given an extremely well-used damascus barrel Lefever with a burst right barrel just past the forend tip. The barrel wall thickness at the rupture point was .010”, and the chamber was 2 5/8”.
With the intent to rupture the left barrel, Buck measured the bore diameter and started his effort with a box of 2 3/4” 1 5/8 oz. short magnums. After 25 shells the left barrel had no change in bore diameter. He then lengthened the chamber to 3”, and following 25 1 7/8 oz. magnums (lead #2 and BB) there was still no change in bore diameter.
Buck then lengthened the chamber to 3 1/2” and used 3 1/2” 2 1/4 oz. lead turkey loads. The left barrel blew after only a few shots. The wall thickness at the rupture point, which was almost aligned with the bursting point of the right side tube, also measured .010”.

A steady diet, no. But, for that hunt, I'd take the Smith. Or have RST ship the loads. Like I said I would be more worried about the airlines.

Please don't think those Smith stocks aren't fragile. I have a 1928 vintage 16 gauge Featherweight that split the stock at the head while sitting in my gun cabinet. I now shoot Foxes, Lefevers and Model 12s for the heavy work.

Why don't you just drive yourself, save the airline headaches, and use whatever ammunition you bring with you?
I'd be willing to bet you $50 an LC Smith wouldn't survive the airline handling.


Best,
Ted

The tensile strength of the barrels is irrelevant in this discussion. We should be concerned with the ability of what is probably pushing a 100 year old stock to absorb recoil. My vote is to err on the conservative side by a wide margin.
Jim

Yes, drive and bring the Smith and your own loadings with you. It would be worth the effort knowing that the Smith is not in the hands of a bunch of airline baggage handlers. I drove it from Pennsylvania and while not a high grade LC Smith my barn gun grade Ithaca was safely tucked away with my RST (Nice shot) nontoxic loads I brought.

The comments about the stock are spot on, and glass bedding is probably a good idea. As far as what that Elsie was built for . . . if it dates from later than 1925, the advent of the Super-X--and that 3 3/4 DE, 1 1/4 oz load is the original Super-X load--means that your gun should have been built to take it. Although, as noted previously, not necessarily the wood. That load, by the way, is considered "light" these days by some pheasant hunters, who seem to think they need to push 1 1/4 oz at 1500 fps, or go to 3" mags, to kill pheasants. That particular load, in either 5 or 6 shot, has probably accounted for more dead ringnecks than any other single load on the market. If I'm going to shoot 1 1/4 oz, which I don't use very often, I look for something like the old Super Pigeon formula, which is 3 1/4 DE vs 3 3/4. Drops the velocity to about 1220 fps. RST offers a nice 1 1/4 oz load at 1200 fps, with which I've had good results. But I'm shooting it through a modern SKB sxs. And most of the time, if I'm shooting a 12, I'm more likely to use a 1 1/16 oz Kent load, maybe with a 1 1/8 oz low pressure and moderate velocity reload in the tight barrel.

"if it dates from later than 1925, the advent of the Super-X--and that 3 3/4 DE, 1 1/4 oz load is the original Super-X load--means that your gun should have been built to take it."

Certainly the top rib extension and rotary locking bolt designed by Alexander Brown in 1883 & 1886 (hammerless) could take it, but as Bro. Larry said, not the wood.
http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/rotarylocking.html

1925 Hang Tag; patterned with 1 1/4 oz. and 3 Dr. Eq. The "standard" Field and Inanimate Target Load from c. 1895 until WWI was 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq., in a 2 5/8" or 2 3/4" case. Of course the Live Bird fellas used some boomers, and destroyed some Smiths. And I believe that explains the shift from Smiths to Parkers and Repeaters by the "Top Guns" by about 1900.
See https://docs.google.com/document/d/1D8QkBDo-KIQYk2G8lkE-kHLUybB5NJzBahX_eFKEyuY/preview



The Long Range Wild Fowl WAS designed for Western Cartridge Co. 12g 'Super-X Field' 2 3/4 inch 1 1/4 oz. 3 3/4 dram equiv. shell introduced in 1922. It was NOT designed for the Winchester/Western 1 5/8 oz. 12 gauge 3" magnum introduced in 1935.



I'll freely admit it was a design flaw that Hunter Arms tried to correct

Pre-1913 12g Reg. Frame oil soaked and cracked head of the stock



1936 12g Reg. Frame clearly with more wood

This is why I love my old British 12g live pigeon guns.
A bit heavy to carry but with 1 1/2oz proof, I can feed them any 2 3/4 cartridge.
Still a wand to a big fella like me.
O.M

1921 Trap Grade patterned with 1 1/8 oz. and 3 Dr. Eq.



1939 DeLuxe still patterned with 1 1/4 oz. and 3 Dr. Eq.

Last time I was in South Dakota I saw people who had drove all the way from New Jersey and New York just to go fishing. I really felt sorry for these people however, and I couldn't look them directly in the eye feeling so bad for them thinking how pathetic and empty their lives must be to drive all that way just to fish.

I hope they found some sort of professional help when they got home.

Why not take a few boxes of RST's with you?

Thanks for all the input. I have a "low pressure" one ounce load I worked up a few years ago when I shot the Smith at doves and clays for a couple of years. (Had one of my best averages on doves and one of my worst!) I will either 1. Shoot the Smith with hand rolled one ounce loads of 6s (may have a few 5s from my old duck days) or 2. Buy a long screwdriver so I can take the stock off the BPS so it will still fit in the Ziegel takedown vase. Or 3. Buy one of those leather "gun butt gadgets" to wear on my belt and carry the 686 Baretta. Not going for meat,onlyfor fun, but hesitant to show up with decent SXS with custom loaded shells that were designed to.baby the gun with killing birds a distant second. Especially with the way I have been shooting lately!!!

Drewbie- Trap Grade 6 & 1/4 lbs. FWE and heavy loads. What kinda doobie and you smoking?? Crazy-- RST lite 1 ounce loads in any FW or FWE 12 smith, no matter when it was mfg..

If you're going to fly take some other gun that can easily be replaced like the BSS or your other contraption. They can be readily replaced. Your Smith cannot.

But, to tell you the truth, I don't know how you can leave that Smith at home.

Treb,
Interesting comment.
Do you hear horror stories about guns and flying? Would one be better off shipping say USPS, to themselves? I'm in the same boat next month and really want to take the WC Scott.

Not really Bill. Just there may be that one time and for his Smith or your W. & C. Scott, that one time may be one to many.

Maybe I need to regroup and take the SKB.

I guess driving is out of the question?

TX to NH is a loong way.
I may drive next year if I can convince my wife we need another pointer though. 2 Shepherds in the house now so it's a hard sell.

Holy smokes!! That is too far of a drive.

I've had good luck flying overseas with a gun, including multiple plane changes. The problem is, before you fly, you need to read the fine print of your airline's rules and regulations on firearms. I'm OK flying United, but I need to make darned sure that, while looking for the best fare, I don't switch to some regional carrier which, even if it has a cooperative arrangement with United, may have different firearms rules. That can be a pain. And you'll certainly want to insure your gun.

I put my gun on a plane in Cedar Rapids; never see it again (after two plane changes) until I arrive in Glasgow or Edinburgh. And I make sure that I have the proper US documentation (customs form) and UK documentation (Visitors Shot Gun Permit, mailed to me in advance by the shoot where we'll be staying) all taken care of. One copy of both with the gun; one copy of both with me.