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Posted By: gold40 SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/01/16 07:53 PM
Like many of you, I enjoy hunting and shooting with 100 year old classic American SxS's, mostly 12 gauge.

For whatever reason, these barrels seem to require more cleaning efforts than modern shotguns, even when they appear to have bright shiny bores. It takes many more passes to get really clean barrels. Often it requires a wire brush, steel wool, and 30+ patches to finally run a clean patch out the muzzle. Hoppes #9 is my norm.

And then if I wait a day or two, another oiled patch will still show more dirt.

The first 4 or 5 patches after firing show the black, sooty, carbon that one expects. Sometimes also a few tiny lead flakes from the shot pellets. Then the next 10 to 20 patches display a brownish color. I'm not sure if that is from the recently fired gunpowder, or some minute unseen rust in the pores of the barrel interior.

Anyone else experiencing similar results? Any theories? Why would older barrels be different?

gold40
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/01/16 08:04 PM
I don't think older barrels are different at all unless there is pitting present in an old barrel or chrome lining in a newer one. My cleaning routine is to spray bore cleaner in the bores and on a copper brush and swab once or twice.

Then allow to dry and run a tight cleaner soaked swab through a few times and let dry again. The final swab is with Rem-oil and usually results in a little more color until it runs clean; then a dry patch. Nothing like 30 swabs though...Geo

on the other hnd you may have cleaner bores that I do?
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/01/16 08:07 PM
Different micro finish, or chrome plated, is all.

It's not a rifle.

I doubt you'll hurt it any, but that is a great deal of scrubbing. I mean, they did make it this long, Right?
Posted By: bbman3 Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/01/16 08:18 PM
Seems to me a cheap say a 311 bores will not rust if never cleaned but find a high grade double and bores are pitted sometimes. Bobby
Posted By: KY Jon Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/01/16 08:32 PM
100 year old guns do not have mirror smooth bores and tend to collect more minor crud like things in their bore surface. It does not matter. Clean it, dry it and use a good oil to cover the surface to protect the bores. That's all that is required. Working to remove 100% of everything is a lot of extra work. Look at it this way the gun lasted 100 years with that crud in/on the bores it should last another with it in there.
Posted By: LeFusil Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/01/16 08:47 PM
All that crud is just seasoning. You know..like a good cast iron skillet. :-)
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/01/16 08:52 PM
Long version
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dnRLZgcuHfx7uFOHvHCUGnGFiLiset-DTTEK8OtPYVA/edit

Short version; turn-of-the-century barrels did not have the corrosion resistance of chrome moly 4140 which was developed in the 20s for automotive axles.
The vast majority of utility grade single and double barrels were likely Decarbonized Steel, possibly rephosphorized and “cold rolled” for greater strength. “Mild” Low Carbon and Low Alloy “Plain” Steels were in general industrial use by the 1870s. Barrels, and especially frames were also AISI 1018 or 1020, both of which are easily “Carburized” or Color Case Hardened.

Actual barrel analysis:
1. 1898 Hunter Arms “Armor Steel” was similar to AISI 1211 Rephosphorized Resulfurized Low Alloy Steel / 1045 Carbon Steel.
2. c. 1900 Crescent “Wilson’s Welded Steel” = Bessemer Rephosphorized Carbon Steel similar to AISI 1017
3. c. 1910 Meriden Fire Arms “Armory Steel” was Bessemer Rephosphorized Carbon Steel similar to AISI 1211 / 1016 Steel.
4. A pre - WWI Parker “Titanic” barrel (courtesy of Dave Suponski) was AISI 1030 with low concentrations of nickel and chromium.
5. A pre - WWI Parker “Trojan” barrel (courtesy of Dave Suponski) was AISI 1035.
6. A pre - WWI Parker “Vulcan” (courtesy of Ron Graham) was AISI 1015.
Higher grade guns had higher grade steel; AISI 1030 - 1045 (possibly rephosphorized), Nickel Steel, Vickers, Delcour-Dupont, Cockerill Acier Universel or Acier Special, Siemens-Martin, Krupp Fluss Stahl, Wittener Excelsior Stahl.

Immediately post-WWI “Fluid Steel” barrels appear to be primarily AISI 1030 or 1040 Carbon Steel, possibly rephosphorized, with alloy steels appearing on higher grade guns; Krupp and Winchester Nickel Steel, Poldi Antikorro, Böhler Antinit.

Posted By: Bibbyman Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/01/16 09:55 PM
After shooting black powder or sub;

Hot water, brush, paper kitchen towels, Thompson Bore Butter.
Posted By: old colonel Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/01/16 10:25 PM
Long ago I adopted a cleaning regime which require and exterior oil cloth wipe down in the field.

When home or to the hotel room Followed by scrubbing with a stiff bore brush with hoppes and then patching with hoppes until clean, lastly then patched with eesox and an exterior wipe down.

I then patch again with hoppes until clean then eesox for the next two days.

It is probably over kill but I am paranoid and most of my old guns have some pitting that sweats carbon.

I store all my guns barrels down because I am generous with oil coating the bore

I find that even after my cleaning is complete a month later there is often a little crud in the barrels under the oil.
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/01/16 10:39 PM
Barrel before



After scrubbing with a piece of Big 45 Frontier Metal Cleaner on the end of a cleaning rod chucked into a cordless drill, then soaked with KleenBore Formula 3 Gun Conditioner

Posted By: Joe Wood Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/02/16 04:29 PM
Wow! That's quite a difference, Drew.

My routine is very simple, but effective:

Two wet patches wrapped around a bronze bristle brush run through a couple times.

One dry patch.

Electric drill with bristle brush wrapped with Big 45 Frontier Metal Cleaner run back and forth a couple times with special attention to first 12" and chokes.

One wet patch.

Dry with one patch.

Finished!

Total time 5 minutes.
Posted By: James M Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/02/16 05:57 PM
I have a Sterlingworth Fox from the 20s that I've used and cleaned for 50+ years in the following manner:

* Multiple passes with a 12ga bore brush soaked in Hoppe's.
* Scrub each barrel with patches again soaked in Hoppe's until clean.
* Wipe the residue out of each barrel with dry patches.
* Run a patch with gun oil down each barrel.

These barrel look no different to me then they did when I acquired the gun over 50 years ago. The barrels still look brand new.

Jim
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/02/16 06:05 PM
I should have included “Sterlingworth Fluid Compressed Steel” in the list of higher quality pre-WWI steels. A Sterlingworth brochure in 1911 mentioned “chrome-nickel and vanadium steel” barrels. “Chromox High Pressure Fluid Steel” was introduced in 1912
https://books.google.com/books?id=eGvdCgAAQBAJ&pg=PA137&lpg

Fred Herbert Colvin, Kristian A. Juthe, The Working of Steel, Annealing, Heat Treating, and Hardening of Carbon and Alloy Steel, 1922
https://books.google.com/books?id=jWNJAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA28&lpg
“Vanadium itself, when combined with steel very low in carbon, is not so noticeably beneficial as in the same carbon steel higher in manganese, but if a small quantity of chromium is added, then the vanadium has a very marked effect in increasing the impact strength of the alloy.....Chrome-vanadium steels also are highly favored for case hardening. When used under alternating stresses it appears to have superior endurance.”
Posted By: Ghostrider Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/02/16 06:09 PM
I follow the same cleaning procedure as Joe Wood, except I do not always use the Frontier pad. Works great.
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/02/16 09:56 PM
Every now n again I use the drill method, to really shine em up.
It still freaks me out a little, lol...but it is so fast n does a hell of a good job
I do like to get the bores well wetted with solvent n leave for a bit, wet again n leave (not dripping wet of course), then have at it.
It sure is a beautiful sight, to look down a freshly cleaned, oiled & shiny, mirror like set of bores, eh?
franc
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/02/16 11:12 PM
That's an interesting 1922 snippet Drew.

It's my understanding that Vanadium makes steel more hardenable by virtue of forming Vanadium carbides. Same with both Chromium and Tungsten.

Curious why this would be sought after in a case hardened application.

Seems like the idea would be to through harden it thus taking full advantage of the alloy.

Remember, Vanadium steel was all the rage after Ford popularized it back then. I bet the Vanadium barrel ad was more fluff than actual content.
Posted By: gold40 Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/03/16 03:04 PM
Thanks for all the info and response. As a non-technical person, I have remaining questions:

1. Do these different barrel materials have differences in the "surface texture" (or pores?) that would make some harder to thoroughly clean?

2. Do some barrels "retain crud" more than others due to metal composition?

3. Is the amount of barrel interior polishing done by the manufacturer a significant factor affecting cleaning time?

gold40

Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/03/16 03:52 PM
Jerry,
1. Yes, at an almost microscopic level.
You can polish sections and see the crumbs that make the cake.
Carbon specs, silica, what not.
2. Yes.
3. Yes. Absolutely.
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/03/16 03:58 PM
Gold,
I would imagine a a new perfectly polished bore would be much easier to keep clean,as long as it was kept in that condition.
A rough new bore with tool marks etc would have places ready n waiting for nasty things to grow n erode.
franc
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/03/16 04:02 PM
They sell bullets impregnated with grit specifically to address the surface finish problem with some manufacturers.

David Tubb's "Final Finish"
It took a rifle I have and made it shootable AND (finally) Cleanable.

Shotguns I don't worry too much, other than as a demonstration of care.
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/03/16 04:53 PM
'Zapper
I remember reading an article by Ross Seyfried about something similar.Though thought is some kinda abrasive paste on bullets to smooth out bores/rifling...I thought he called it fire lapping?
Is your clapper zapper to do with clapper rails?...do you eat em?
cheers
franc
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/03/16 05:05 PM
Yes, Clapper Rails.
I went 50 straight the year of Katrina, on Assateague Island.
Hence the nickname I was bestowed.
They are a waste of shells.

As tablefare, like any shallow, warm, muddy, saltwater marsh dwelling critter, they, ahem, "Taste like the sea".

If you ever get a chance to be polled around near Morristown, NJ, take it. It's very pleasant. Very old timey. Perfect for small bore shooting.
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/03/16 05:10 PM
Cleveland's Claude Cooper copped the clean copper clappers kept in a closet...
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/03/16 05:10 PM
I haven't shot marsh hens (clapper, sora, king rails) in years. Lots of them on the GA coast. Too old to pole and too scared to run'em up with the motor. I thought they were alright for eating though. About like snipe...Geo
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/03/16 05:20 PM
It could have been the post shot care I suppose.
A Soft shelled blue crab sandwich, with remoulade sauce, was my preferred lunch over there. Then grilled scallops, and deep fried crab cakes. And beer. Lots of beer.

You'd find an oyster bar that the tide was swallowing, and you might have 25 of them standing there.

It is about pageantry, and the start of the fall's shooting season.
Posted By: Nick. C Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/05/16 05:20 PM
Drew, do you find that barrel is a bit noisier than the other when you fire it ? wink
Posted By: Paul Harm Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/05/16 10:54 PM
I normally just run a fuzzy rod down the barrels, a oil soaked patch in the chambers and outside, and put it in the gun room. It's a shotgun, so I don't get too carried away.
Posted By: builder Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/05/16 11:07 PM
I agree with you Paul. I do the same but do clean the action and grease it up. No deterioration of the insides of the barrels in ten years. They are kept in a safe with a golden rod.

I have told the story here before but I knew a female skeet champion with walls of trophies and her attitude is why clean the barrels, they just get dirty the next time. I did see some of her guns including a Krieghoff and a bunch of her 1100's from her earlier years and the barrels were fine after many years. i did not ask her if she cleaned the actions. Sorry I did not.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/06/16 11:41 AM

There's big difference between what you can get by with, as far as cleaning barrels goes, with vintage guns and with chrome lined modern made double guns. I pay more attention to the bores of my oldies than I do my modern-made chrome-lined ones. And no, I have no problem paying closer attention to one than I do the other. Some kids just need a little extra attention.

SRH
Posted By: Paul Harm Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/06/16 01:09 PM
Builder, I do take the barrels off occasional and clean and oil the breech and wrist pins. My wife has a ported barrel O/U that seems to collect plastic, but not so my old SxS's without choke tubes.
Posted By: builder Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 11/06/16 01:26 PM
Paul, just a little tongue in cheek. I am sure you have been cleaning the "insides".

I have never had a problem with plastic residue but never say it out loud. I have purchased guns with plastic residue though.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/13/19 12:49 PM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
......
Immediately post-WWI “Fluid Steel” barrels appear to be primarily AISI 1030 or 1040 Carbon Steel, possibly rephosphorized, with alloy steels appearing on higher grade guns; Krupp and Winchester Nickel Steel, Poldi Antikorro, Böhler Antinit.


Hause:

I may have missed it, but have you tested any of the above? I was interested in Poldi Antikorro and recently read of the following values, which may be old hat:

"Poldi-Anti-Corro" patented in 1910:
....contained 0.145% Carbon, 0.45% Silicon, 0.50% Manganese and 9.78% Nickel - cited under -C. C. Leidedera-1915?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: 2-piper Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/13/19 01:37 PM
That 9.78% nickel content is what gave it its Anti-Corro monicker.
Offhand I do not know if there is a corresponding ANSI number, but should be something close. Even in 1910, I would have figured the carbon content would have been higher than that 0.145%, more on the order of 0.45%, but that was just a guess.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/13/19 01:39 PM
Miller:

I'm not at all positive of those unconfirmed values. I just wanted a little more ground truth.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Ken Nelson Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/13/19 08:07 PM
I can't dilly dally long in cleaning my old SuperP's. The darn chambers start to rust on the way home from the range to the house. And that ain't far!
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/13/19 09:37 PM
Henry Ford, on his 1906 visit to France, visited several steel mills, first to employ electric melt furnaces, and first to use Vanadium to alloy steels--believe he used those alloys in the crankshaft rods and the actual crankshaft in the 4-banger engines his Rouge plants produced, and later in the flathead V-8 that came out in 1932-- L.C. Smith may have also used a vanadium alloyed steel for their cocking rods-- very seldom hear of one fracturing--RWTF
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/13/19 09:42 PM
Ken- what is a "Super P" shotgun> Not familiar with that model, is it a competition clays gun perhaps?? RWTF
Posted By: Karl Graebner Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/13/19 11:30 PM
Fox,
I believe he is referring to a Browning Superposed. Their chambers were known to rust easily.
Karl
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/13/19 11:36 PM
Thanks, Karl.. Does that include the Superposed series made in Belgium, as well as the later Japanese Citori series? My Doctor was telling me recently that he believes some of the higher end Browning Competition Over and Blunders run up to $7500- Wowie, waaaaay outta my reach, even if I liked O/U's (which I don't)--
Posted By: Karl Graebner Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/14/19 12:47 AM
Fox,
I believe it was just the Belgium ones that were prone to the chamber problem. The Citori series had chromed chambers I think, as I never had any problems with mine. I sold all my Citoris after discovering the pleasure of SxS's!
Karl
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/14/19 12:05 PM
Perhaps another "gremlin" in the works with Browning, like the "salt wood" scenario in past years. Can't tell you why, but even in his "Shotgunner's Notebook" where he discusses the pros and cons of each version of the double barreled shotgun- Every o/u i have ever held and mounted felt like a 2x4 on edge- but I have never handled a Boss or a Woodward- most likely never will-
All my side-by-sides ( 5 L.C. Smiths, 1 M21 and 1 Fox Sterly have splinter forearms- and although I also shoot M12's, the 'single sighting plane theory doesn't apply to my field shooting. RWTF
Posted By: Ken Nelson Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/14/19 12:19 PM
Quote:
Every o/u i have ever held and mounted felt like a 2x4 on edge-


Fox.....I'd say you've had a very limited exposure to OU's....
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/14/19 02:14 PM
Check out the last page (14) of the Superposed Owner's Manual; No. 8 regarding chamber cleaning
https://www.browning.com/content/dam/browning/support/owners-manuals/superposedmanual.pdf

Some Browning patent Fabrique-Nationale-Herstal very early versions of the A5 shipped to the U.S. between 1903 and 1909 are marked Cockerill Steel. “Special Steel” began to appear on A5 barrels in the mid-1930s; the Sweet Sixteen, introduced in 1937, barrels were so marked. The Superposed, introduced in 1928 had “Special Steel” starting about 1948.
I have no information as to the composition of "Special Steel", but it was likely non-alloy AISI 1040.
Posted By: King Brown Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/14/19 02:21 PM
Fox, it wouldn't have to be a Boss or Woodward to feel right. I bought new a SKB Model 500 50 years years ago and later a Beretta 686. In 20 and 12, I use them from grouse to geese as pleasurably as my American double classics.
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: SxS Barrel Cleaning - 06/14/19 09:52 PM
You, Sir, have the correct windage on that. Probably because I'm not a serious clays shooter or competitor-- I also am a big fan of the late Gene Hill- and he shot Trap with M21's, and also Rem 32"s and then Kreighoff O/U's-- I'm too old to switch from my M12's and older side-by-sides, I'd have to sell some of them to afford even a used but in vg condition O/U, and that ain't gonna happen- RWTF
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