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Posted By: bladeswitcher How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 10:57 AM
So, imagine you came into possession of a very nice old shotgun. In this case a high condition, top-level model British BSA shotgun with factory 2-3/4 chambers (engraved, ejector model). The gun is factory choked open on the right and a tight full on the left.

How big of a sin is it to have a qualified professional open the tight barrel to a choke constriction more appropriate for the owner's use (say light-mod or mod)? Does this ruin the value of the gun forever? Is it better to maintain originality, knowing the gun will likely collect dust in the back of the safe or adopt the gun to modern shells and uses and give the old gal a new lease on life?

BTW, I've had chokes opened on a number of guns in the past. This one just seems a bit more sacred somehow. Should some guns simply not be altered? (ETA: If it makes any difference, the barrel is marked simply "CHOKE".)
Posted By: canvasback Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 11:18 AM
BSA is a working gun. Open the chokes so the gun gets used.
Posted By: old colonel Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 11:24 AM
I do not believe it is a sin to make a gun more useful for your purpose.

Altering choke is ok.

The word "choke" merely means the barrel had some choke at proof, it does not refer to any specific degree of choke like some Belgian guns do when they are stamped with bore and choke size markings.

I caveat that with an exception, a highly collectable, and valuable gun in pristine condition should be left alone if your purpose is collecting investment as any alterations affect value. If it is a shooter a not some unique gun have at it
Posted By: moses Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 11:27 AM
That is my thoughts as well canvasback. It's only a BSA
It is possibly a nice upper grade BSA because it is an engraved ejector model, so depending on the value of the gun now & as it is not suitable to you like it is; can you afford to mess with it ?
I like the combination as it is, but then my use may be different to yours.
O.M
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 12:02 PM
having the chokes changed on a BSA field grade gun is like Dolly Parton having a boob job--having the chokes or chamber length changed on a Boss is like welding arms back on to the Mona Lisa in the Louvre--

I prefer to use RST spreader loads, and leave my Model 12's and LC Smith chokes unsullied. I like ist tight pattersm as I love to see birds crumple in air like they just ran into the vault at Fort Knox. If I were a grouse and woodcock and quail hunter today, that would be different, but 90% of my shotgunning today s pass shooting, or laying in wait like a sniper and be-heading a Tom turkey with a fist-tight pattern at distance- Win M1897--
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 12:09 PM
All British guns were built to be used and used hard. Open the choke and use it.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 12:14 PM
The BSA high grade ejector gun is pretty rare, but not much collector interest as far as I know. Western hunters and sporting clays guys want more choke than us eastern hunters do. Opening may reduce value in some circles.

Does your BSA look like this one?...Geo

Posted By: GLS Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 12:33 PM
Geo, now you're just showing-off. wink Gil
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 12:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern


Does your BSA look like this one?...Geo


similar, without the coin finish. I'll try to get some photos shot and post.


Part of me says leave it alone. You can't UNDO the change. I can always open it later. Learn to shoot it. The other part of me says, we're not shooting the same ammo they had when the gun was made. If the gun were built for today's plastic wads, the bore probably wouldn't be so tight.

Discretion says wait and think. Soliciting opinions here is just part of that process.
Posted By: ithaca1 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 01:04 PM
If you reload, I would leave it alone and adjust the pattern with spreaders. Its EZ to remove material but hard to replace. There may come a day when you want that full left barrel.

Bladeswitcher's comment works for me. Wait and think.
Posted By: King Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 01:04 PM
Leave as is, if you bought it to own an untouched gun, as a collector. If you bought it to shoot, open it to your preference.

A gun accommodates hunting and shooting, a tool. The notion of assigning it to sacred ground, a gender, to "fondle," puts my teeth on edge.

Not to say a gun can't be admired for its simplicity or consummate craftsmanship but it's still only a thing performing an action.
Posted By: ithaca1 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 01:04 PM
If you reload, I would leave it alone and adjust the pattern with spreaders. Its EZ to remove material but hard to replace. There may come a day when you want that full left barrel.

Bladeswitcher's comment works for me. Wait and think.
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 01:20 PM
Posted By: John Roberts Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 01:46 PM
Originally Posted By: bladeswitcher
The gun is factory choked open on the right and a tight full on the left.


Measure, or have measured, the existing chokes. You don't really know exactly what you have currently. If it's like .005/.045, then open the left to something like .020 and have fun. It's a BSA, not an untouched 95% Parker AAHE.

No sin involved, your absolved.
JR
Posted By: SKB Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 02:10 PM
depends upon your shooting...I love that combo for roosters over my flushers.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 02:26 PM
That gun is a looker. Not many English boxlocks around with 2 3/4" chambers, that high condition, and ejectors.
I'd say just get the bird with the first shot. Failing that, load a spreader in the second tube. You can have your cake and eat it, that way.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 02:27 PM
From that picture?

HELL NO!

SKB is right.
If you want something for close work, buy another gun that's already been reamed.

That gun has a nice combo for sporting clays shooting as well.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 02:38 PM
Bladeswitcher, I believe you have the same gun as mine. I wouldn't change the choke if it were mine. Too many easy solutions that do not require choke changing. JMHO...Geo

While researching my gun I found that BSA only made doubles from 1921 to 1939. The records were destroyed in WW-2. Most were plain guns which I've always thought of as the Stevens 311 of the British gun trade. Very few of the "Director Model" quality you have were produced. There is a good article in Shooting Sportsman a few months back on BSA...Geo
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 03:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
Bladeswitcher, I believe you have the same gun as mine. I wouldn't change the choke if it were mine. Too many easy solutions that do not require choke changing. JMHO...Geo

While researching my gun I found that BSA only made doubles from 1921 to 1939. The records were destroyed in WW-2. Most were plain guns which I've always thought of as the Stevens 311 of the British gun trade. Very few of the "Director Model" quality you have were produced. There is a good article in Shooting Sportsman a few months back on BSA...Geo



I have that copy of the Shooting Sportsman. In fact, that's what got me looking at BSA. I bought one a year or so ago that is plain Jane with the exception of the buttplate option. It's a 2-1/2 gun, choked just like this one. It's a really nice handling, sweet shooting gun. I picked this one up a week or so ago on Gunbroker. Somehow it slipped through the cracks and I got a good deal.

I'm not a hunter (yet), just a skeet shooter/sporting clays neophyte. I like side by sides, though, and have several. I'm also a pawnbroker/FFL so I'm somewhat attuned to resale considerations.

My inclination is to leave this one alone but the thought did cross my mind . . . worst thing that would happen if I leave it the way it is would be that I'd miss some clay birds.
Posted By: gold40 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 03:15 PM
I have a quality 1920's engraved English boxlock ejector (12 ga.) made by Edwinson Green that is factory choked as CYLINDER and FULL. While it seems an usual choice, I decided to leave it as-is. If I miss with the right barrel on a flushing bird, I need to remember to pause a bit before firing the left barrel. On the other hand, the left barrel is good on passing shots.

However, I see no sin in opening chokes. I have had several opened on classic American "using SxS's", and been pleased with the results.

gold40
Posted By: KY Jon Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 03:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
having the chokes changed on a BSA field grade gun is like Dolly Parton having a boob job--having the chokes or chamber length changed on a Boss is like welding arms back on to the Mona Lisa in the Louvre--



You must be watching too much TV. Mona Lisa is a oil painting not a statue. The statue that you were thinking of is this:

Aphrodite of Milos (Greek: Αφροδίτη της Μήλου, Aphroditi tis Milou), better known as the Venus de Milo, is an ancient Greek statue and one of the most famous works of ancient Greek sculpture. ... The statue is named after the Greek island of Milos, where it was discovered.





To the original question. Use the gun and enjoy it. If you want some of the PC post spreader wads I have a very good supply and am grown up enough to share with my friends. They open the choke up fairly well, without the need to alter chokes. If the gun can not be used, for what you want, it just will sit in a safe or closet and get older. It was built to be used and enjoyed. So if you reload you can load up a couple boxes of spreader load and shoot them in the left barrel. They seem to open a choke up about one step, that is full to IM or Mod. You don't get full to cylinder as some think.

I used them a few weeks ago with a Lefever which is choked extra full in both barrels. They worked well but I learned that birds withing 15 yards were best not shot at. Open, is not Skeet more like IM or Mod in this case. Still much better than a dinner plate size pattern at 25 yards with the extra full chokes.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 03:41 PM
He was a bit more disjointed than is normal, no?

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Little Creek Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 04:06 PM
I agree that changing the choke to match the range you want to shoot is appropriate.

My experience with spreaders is that it is easy to go from Full to cylinder, but not easy to come up with a good reliable 30-35 yard load.
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 05:01 PM
Likewise. I'd take it to .015 and use the thing.

Obviously, you want to hire a good guy.

.015 is a 35 yard gun with modern ammo using hard shot and a shotcup. Plated and buffered high density low velocity handloads can even stretch this out if desired.

There are different grades of spreaders you can load too.

1. Hard shot, remove the shotcup.
2. Chilled shot, remove the shotcup.
3. Hard shot, use an X wad.
4. Chilled shot, remove the shotcup, use an X wad.

That way, .015 is almost like having screw chokes and all you need to do is fish in a different pocket for shells.

I color code things with STS green and gold, gun clubs and black beauties. Same hulls, different loads.

Yes, it's a lot of fiddling but this is a hobby and if the load changes don't actually do much you can at least delude yourself. Confidence is half of shooting!
Posted By: Boats Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 07:14 PM
I visit a gun shop with a large inventory of SxS guns often. You can walk down the row and spot the muzzles of poor open jobs right away. Not concentric, rough finish etc. Want to see how to ruin one look at Midways video on Ytube. Opening a Parker choke with a reamer and tap wrench hand held, chance of it turning out right less than 20 %. Guns poorly opened are not going to sell except to somebody who can't tell good from bad

If the job is done by a competent gunsmith and you are not worried about value, it's your gun. I prefer to buy one that's suitable for my use, not risking bad alteration, not to mention cost of the job and reduced value if re-sold.

Spreaders don't make a Grouse gun out of a Duck Gun, but are viable options for crazy close targets on Sporting Clays ranges. Way back some boxes of Skeet loads included 2 spreader shells for Station 8. Break the target about half of 21 yards, very useful to have a spreader shell in your pocket. If scores are being recorded I always have some spreaders with me. Pratice round don't use them.

Boats
Posted By: Researcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 07:57 PM
Fifty years ago, when I got my 1914-vintage Ansley H. Fox straight grip, A-Grade, 28-inch Krupp barrel, 12-gauge, it was improved modified in both barrels. I had the gunsmiths at Warshal's Sporting Goods, 1st & Madison in Seattle, open that right barrel to improved cylinder. Has been my go to bird gun for fifty seasons and is nicknamed Meat in the Pot --



December 2014 --



I have certainly never missed that extra choke in the right barrel.

The BSA isn't the "Sultan of Turkey Colt"!!! Make it useful to you.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 08:05 PM
If you go with opening the choke, Mike Orlen won't ruin it and he won't take forever to do it...Geo

<michael.orlen@verizon.net>
Posted By: GLS Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 08:15 PM
Geo, Mike has opened chokes or other barrel work on several of my guns. The longest turnaround time out and back to me has been 8 days. Gil
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 08:33 PM
Don't know the part of the country you're in but if it's west of the big river I'd suggest Dean Harris of Skeet's Gun Shop in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. He is exclusively barrel work and choke opening is precise and perfect.
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/03/16 08:38 PM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
If you go with opening the choke, Mike Orlen won't ruin it and he won't take forever to do it...Geo

<michael.orlen@verizon.net>


I've lost track of how many barrels Mike has done for me. He's definitely who I'd send it to if I decide to do that. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
Posted By: Ducks Rx Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/04/16 01:01 AM
Had chokes opened on 2 LC Smiths and Fox SW all in 16 ga by M Orlen and Dean Evans. Orlen does good work and Dean does Great job (my preference). Both are very reasonable with price.
Posted By: Jagermeister Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/04/16 01:19 AM
Originally Posted By: bladeswitcher
So, imagine you came into possession of a very nice old shotgun. In this case a high condition, top-level model British BSA shotgun with factory 2-3/4 chambers (engraved, ejector model). The gun is factory choked open on the right and a tight full on the left.

How big of a sin is it to have a qualified professional open the tight barrel to a choke constriction more appropriate for the owner's use (say light-mod or mod)? Does this ruin the value of the gun forever? Is it better to maintain originality, knowing the gun will likely collect dust in the back of the safe or adopt the gun to modern shells and uses and give the old gal a new lease on life?

BTW, I've had chokes opened on a number of guns in the past. This one just seems a bit more sacred somehow. Should some guns simply not be altered? (ETA: If it makes any difference, the barrel is marked simply "CHOKE".)


To my thinking on old English doubles it hurts in two instances were guns are in very nice original condition. Long range fowler or trap/pigeon guns. There won't be many takers for those if barrels are lightly choked.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 12:05 AM
I just picked up a 32" Ithaca with F and F chokes. Now I have to figure out your question for myself. I don't need a gun choked that tightly but it is too nice to make into a shooter by altering the chokes. So I am going to try PC spreader post wads to see if I can get a more useful combinations of chokes. If I can just get a Mod and Full combination I would be extremely happy but even IM would help. It might be the perfect 30-50 yard Dove gun. Might get to try it out on late season birds in a few weeks.
Posted By: John Roberts Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 12:54 AM
Originally Posted By: Joe Wood
Don't know the part of the country you're in but if it's west of the big river I'd suggest Dean Harris of Skeet's Gun Shop in Tahlequah, Oklahoma. He is exclusively barrel work and choke opening is precise and perfect.


Best in the business.
JR
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 01:19 AM
I'd still leave it be...


Best,
Ted
Posted By: gold40 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 01:48 AM

How about this for a guideline on "opening chokes" :

If you could easily sell the shotgun tomorrow for at least $3k, leave it alone...otherwise, open it if you want to use it.

gold40
Posted By: old colonel Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 02:42 AM
Like many things about doubleguns, many of us are quite passionate, and that is probably a good thing.

It is your gun, your property and I strongly believe in property rights. Do what you think best and enjoy the gun as you want.

Understand the collector vs shooter trade offs and make the call.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 10:52 AM
Originally Posted By: gold40

How about this for a guideline on "opening chokes" :

If you could easily sell the shotgun tomorrow for at least $3k, leave it alone...otherwise, open it if you want to use it.

gold40



Probably need more caveats than price. I bought a lightly used Perazzi MX 8 trap gun about 10 years ago. It was choked F and F. I did not want to screw choke it, as I had another like it with thin wall Brileys. I had the chokes opened to .020" and 020". It is my go to sporting clays gun when I want to shoot the best score I possibly can. Point? It was easily worth over $3K.

I would tend towards rarity as being a greater consideration than price. Another example. I have a couple Iver Johnson Special Trap single barrel trap guns. They will not bring over $500 each on a good day. I paid way less than that for them. They are both choked around .040". I wouldn't open their chokes for anything.

SRH
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 11:34 AM
Should there be some consideration for the fact that modern, plastic wad shells shoot differently than old paper/fiber wad shells? If the newer ammunition inherently produces tighter patterns isn't it reasonable to modify the older guns to accommodate that change? Or would the purist say that only period-correct ammunition should be used in a vintage gun?
Posted By: John Roberts Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 01:03 PM
It's a dang BSA guys. Nobody cares if the chokes are opened.
JR
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 01:08 PM
Originally Posted By: John Roberts
It's a dang BSA guys. Nobody cares if the chokes are opened.
JR


But it's a really NICE BSA . . .
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 01:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
That gun is a looker. Not many English boxlocks around with 2 3/4" chambers, that high condition, and ejectors.
I'd say just get the bird with the first shot. Failing that, load a spreader in the second tube. You can have your cake and eat it, that way.


Best,
Ted


Ted, most of the Webley & Scott 700 series guns (including 701 and 702) are 2 3/4". All have ejectors. And they are, without doubt, the most commonly encountered Brit sxs in this country. And in terms of price, the 700's are probably similar to a top grade BSA.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 02:11 PM
I haven't noticed them getting any cheaper, Larry, especially when they approach the condition of this BSA. A lot of the 700s I've seen don't look as nice as this one, either.
We have guys here who wouldn't clean the metal shavings out of a model 21 action if they thought they were original, who will tell you to alter a high condition Brit gun and who should do it for you.
The spreader load is the simplest, cheapest, and easiest solution to whatever the "problem" with this gun might be.
Really, I'd use it for at least a year before I did anything to the chokes. Maybe two years. Once you get out of the forrest, and onto the plains, that is a sweet choke combination. Not a horrible sporting clays combination, but, you will have to do your part.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 05:46 PM
That is a nice looking BSA. Probably nicer than most. Ted makes a good argument for shooting it for a bit to see how you will use it before you change anything. If you hand-load or have good access to spreader loads then you certainly have that option. I, however, find that if I have to make too-many special efforts to use a gun, it doesn't get used very often. I appreciate original to the point where I've sold very nice older guns because I didn't feel good about altering them to fit my needs. But...if you're looking for that one good gun, your own "meat-in-the-pot" example, then I'd make it fit your circumstances. With the advent of shot cups in the early 60's, choke arguably became superfluous in 12-bores anyway. I keep a bit of choke in my 12s, but not much and they seem to work just fine without it.
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 08:06 PM
Today's "gotta have it wand, that just needs some reaming," is tomorrow's trade bait.
Posted By: Wild Skies Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 09:52 PM
Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
Today's "gotta have it wand, that just needs some reaming," is tomorrow's trade bait.


BINGO!
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 11:20 PM
"With the advent of shot cups in the early 60's, choke arguably became superfluous in 12-bores anyway."

You and M. McIntosh ............ but he actually used the term "obsolete" where you said "superfluous". It always makes me smile, how hunters from some parts of the country, mostly grouse and woodcock hunters, think choke is superfluous in a 12 ga. They don't consider turkey hunters, or pigeon shooters, or duck hunters, or goose hunters, or crow shooters, or ....... ad infinitum.

SRH
Posted By: Walter C. Snyder Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 11:36 PM
OK, I tried to stay off this post but can't any longer. I abhor choke tubes and all that goes with that discussion. This is my take and doesn't matter if any agree. My bucket list sporting clays gun happens to have right barrel full choke and left barrel mod or even maybe IM. Any way tight. I started with a big pocket full of spreader loads but have found that when I put the barrels in the correct place, bingo! I am down to only using 5 or 6 spreaders(close rabbits mostly) and enjoying the guns choke configuration.
Bottom line for me is--learn to shoot the gun! Some one wiser then I once said chokes are for inches--lead is for feet.
I am still learning BUT having a great time doing it.
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/05/16 11:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Walter C. Snyder
. . . This is my take and doesn't matter if any agree . . .


Regardless of what, if anything, I decide to do with the gun, I'm enjoying the discussion and reading the different points of view. Every viewpoint is appreciated and respected.

BTW, Walter, I truly enjoy your Ithaca 37 book and refer to it often.
Posted By: Karl Graebner Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 12:03 AM
I've always felt that an open choke at distance will hurt you more than a tight choke will at a closer range. Back in my choke tube days,I would often forget to put in the more open choke on close shots, only to do just fine. I find that medium distance breaks are easier to read with the tight chokes.
Karl
Posted By: John Roberts Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 01:24 AM
Measure the chokes and see what you got.
JR
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 01:49 AM
Originally Posted By: Walter C. Snyder
OK, I tried to stay off this post but can't any longer. I abhor choke tubes and all that goes with that discussion. This is my take and doesn't matter if any agree. My bucket list sporting clays gun happens to have right barrel full choke and left barrel mod or even maybe IM. Any way tight. I started with a big pocket full of spreader loads but have found that when I put the barrels in the correct place, bingo! I am down to only using 5 or 6 spreaders(close rabbits mostly) and enjoying the guns choke configuration.
Bottom line for me is--learn to shoot the gun! Some one wiser then I once said chokes are for inches--lead is for feet.
I am still learning BUT having a great time doing it.


Preach on, brother! SRH
Posted By: VictoryXC Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 01:21 PM
What is the estimated value of this gun? How much would the value change if the chokes were opened?
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 01:51 PM
Originally Posted By: VictoryXC
What is the estimated value of this gun? How much would the value change if the chokes were opened?


Not sure who you're asking but since it's my gun, I'll take a stab at part of your question. Given the overall quality and condition of the gun I would think it should be worth somewhere between $900 to $1,500 to the right buyer*. The gun would be a tough sell, though. It's not a brand that collectors generally seek and it's not the type of gun that would appeal to modern shooters.

There's a very limited market for this gun. I suspect the question isn't really how much would changing the choke lower the value. The question is whether changing the choke would make the gun more or less saleable. Would potential buyers walk away simply because of the choke change? Does changing the choke severely limit its appeal to vintage double gun enthusiasts? Or, given that this is a gun that might appeal to hunters/shooters would a different choke configuration make it MORE marketable?

* If you accept the premise that the value of anything is what buyers are willing to pay then the lack of bidders in the auction I won suggests the value of this gun is quite a bit less.
Posted By: KY Jon Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 03:32 PM
Bladeswitcher has a point. If your gun is not a collectors gun then altering it will have very little impact on the final value. I would not worry that much about altering the chokes on a Sterlingworth and to some extent this gun is in that class. A not so rare gun, that has very little cult collectors following. A Parker, Browning or Winchester gun, in same condition, would have ten times the potential buyers group. 99% of buyers never heard of BSA or don't care about BSA. BSA is going to be bought by the next shooter not the next collector. So make it what you want if you wish. But I still have some of those post spreader wads to try if you want.
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 04:11 PM
Originally Posted By: KY Jon
I would not worry that much about altering the chokes on a Sterlingworth and to some extent this gun is in that class. A not so rare gun, that has very little cult collectors following.


In terms of numbers produced, this gun is MUCH rarer than a Sterlingworth. The market for Sterlingworths is surely a lot stronger, though. FWIW, I didn't think twice about having the chokes opened on my Sterlingworth (with reblued barrels).


Originally Posted By: KY Jon
But I still have some of those post spreader wads to try if you want.


Wow. Thanks for reminding me. I got your IM and I should have responded but I got distracted. I appreciate your kind offer. Right or wrong, I don't really like the spreader shell idea much. First, I don't reload 12 gauge because I see so little economic reason to do so (I do reload 28 gauge and intend to start reloading 2.5" 12 gauge shells). Also, I'm basically lazy and I prefer to simply dump shells in my pouch and shoot. I don't want to mess with two piles of shells.
Posted By: canvasback Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 04:25 PM
Originally Posted By: bladeswitcher
Originally Posted By: VictoryXC
What is the estimated value of this gun? How much would the value change if the chokes were opened?


* If you accept the premise that the value of anything is what buyers are willing to pay then the lack of bidders in the auction I won suggests the value of this gun is quite a bit less.


It's not a "premise". That's what the market value of anything is. I can have some view of what my guns are worth, but the real value is determined in a free and open market when others can accurately assess what is on offer and make their choice about what it is worth in competition with others of like mind.

Auctions are a relatively good way of determining value. See Rocketman's pricing charts.
Posted By: kirkp Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 04:41 PM
Canvasback, you mention a chart by rocketman. Did a search but couldn't find it. You wouldn't be able to post a link to it would you?
Thanks
Kirk
Posted By: Bob Blair Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 05:02 PM
If you don't open that choke then I'm subtracting about $200 from the price I'm going to be paying you so I can send it off immediately to Kirk Merrington and have it opened myself. Just do it!
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 05:38 PM
Originally Posted By: canvasback


It's not a "premise". That's what the market value of anything is. I can have some view of what my guns are worth, but the real value is determined in a free and open market when others can accurately assess what is on offer and make their choice about what it is worth in competition with others of like mind.

Auctions are a relatively good way of determining value. See Rocketman's pricing charts.


Absolutely true. But auction results are often influenced by the quality of the presentation. I have little doubt that if I wrote the description and provided the photos, I could double the final selling price of this gun. The seller definitely hurt himself by not doing is homework and not presenting the gun in its best light.

That said, price discovery is a lot easier for common items. There are dozens of Sterlingworths on Gunbroker every day so it's a simple matter to look at completed auctions and get a good sense of value. When only one or two examples of a particular item come up every year, it's much harder to gleen much accuracy from auction results.
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 05:53 PM
Lots of things go into "value" and price. Rarity, condition, popularity, usefulness and available alternatives all weigh heavily. Sometimes price makes sense. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it's just the right item at the wrong time.

Yes, the BSA is a machine made gun. But it is a true British/Birmingham gun. They only made about 40,000 guns and the vast majority were plain workingman grade guns. Very few had any embellishment at all. This one was clearly not a run of the mill gun from the BSA factory. There may not be much collector interest but it is certainly unique.

Anyway, here's a few pictures:













Posted By: John Roberts Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 07:22 PM
That gun is worth quite a lot more than the "$900-$1500" that you mentioned in a previous post. With that engraving and condition, along with its quality and nice configuration, I would venture it to be more like a $3000/$3500 gun any day. Hell, Steve Barnett would put $4500 on it, and Kevin's would put it at $6500.
JR
Posted By: ClapperZapper Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 07:42 PM
Yeah definitely worth reaming.
Make sure you lop a big chunk off the stock before you peddle it as well. It could use a big fat red recoil pad for user comfort.
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 07:44 PM
Blades'
That is a lovely Gun mate.As so many were so plain, this could be worth more than you think.
Its in lovely nic too...I dig that heart/lyre scroll on the side shot.
If it were mine n it fit me, I would take a little choke out,if needed n it would be a great gun to shoot for the rest of my life...(how old are ye?,lol)
I guess its a Best BSA, eh?
I'd love to have one of 'em
cheers
franc
Posted By: John Roberts Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 08:02 PM
Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
Yeah definitely worth reaming.
Make sure you lop a big chunk off the stock before you peddle it as well. It could use a big fat red recoil pad for user comfort.



You forgot the sling swivels and initials scratched into the barrels...
JR
Posted By: VictoryXC Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 08:02 PM
That is a fantastic looking gun and I know I would love to have it! If you plan on keeping it and shooting have the choke changed to your preference and enjoy it. Thanks for sharing the pictures.
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 09:15 PM
And Jack Puglisi, if he was alive, would have listed it a $8500. My late grandather used to say: "No tree can grow up to the sky".. He was talking about the Wall Street idiots.
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 09:57 PM
Originally Posted By: John Roberts
That gun is worth quite a lot more than the "$900-$1500" that you mentioned in a previous post. With that engraving and condition, along with its quality and nice configuration, I would venture it to be more like a $3000/$3500 gun any day. Hell, Steve Barnett would put $4500 on it, and Kevin's would put it at $6500.
JR


"Worth" is one thing. What a gun could sell for is something else. I would like to think you're right that it would sell for $3,000. I believe it "should" but I also know that somebody with $3,000 to spend on a shotgun has a lot to choose from and that a BSA might not top the list when considering his or her options. Also, it's been my experience that the setting of sale makes a huge difference in price. Leather chairs and dusty bookcases can add hundreds, if not thousands to the price.

BTW, I shot two rounds of skeet with it today. First round was a bit of a disaster but I did much better the second round. My first miss was on station 4. I had an unusually bad station 6 and ended up at 21, which is a fairly common score for me. That left barrel sure smokes 'em!
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 10:07 PM
Originally Posted By: ClapperZapper
Yeah definitely worth reaming.
Make sure you lop a big chunk off the stock before you peddle it as well. It could use a big fat red recoil pad for user comfort.



Not nice . . .
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 10:41 PM
Originally Posted By: John Roberts
It's a dang BSA guys. Nobody cares if the chokes are opened.
JR


No, it is a dang NICE BSA. You missed a bit.
Bet if it was your's (or, mine) it would remain untouched.

Best looking Brit boxlock I've seen in some time. He stole it, too.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: GLS Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 10:59 PM
Geo's and Bladeswitcher's two BSAs are embodiment of the old saw about "buying the gun and not the name." Gil
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 11:12 PM
Originally Posted By: GLS
Geo's and Bladeswitcher's two BSAs are embodiment of the old saw about "buying the gun and not the name." Gil



FWIW, I have another BSA. It's as plain as plain can be. No ornament or embellishment at all but it handles and shoots great.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/06/16 11:51 PM
Somebody was proud of that gun when they built it!...Geo
Posted By: John Roberts Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/07/16 02:38 AM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
Originally Posted By: John Roberts
It's a dang BSA guys. Nobody cares if the chokes are opened.
JR


No, it is a dang NICE BSA. You missed a bit.
Bet if it was your's (or, mine) it would remain untouched.

Best looking Brit boxlock I've seen in some time. He stole it, too.


Best,
Ted


I said it was.

Not really.

No, it would not.

I don't doubt that.

Congrats to him.
JR
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/07/16 02:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
I haven't noticed them getting any cheaper, Larry, especially when they approach the condition of this BSA. A lot of the 700s I've seen don't look as nice as this one, either.
We have guys here who wouldn't clean the metal shavings out of a model 21 action if they thought they were original, who will tell you to alter a high condition Brit gun and who should do it for you.
The spreader load is the simplest, cheapest, and easiest solution to whatever the "problem" with this gun might be.
Really, I'd use it for at least a year before I did anything to the chokes. Maybe two years. Once you get out of the forrest, and onto the plains, that is a sweet choke combination. Not a horrible sporting clays combination, but, you will have to do your part.

Best,
Ted


Well Ted, you've hit on one significant difference between THIS particular BSA and a W&S 700: There are enough of the latter out there that you will find them in various conditions. Meanwhile, you don't see nearly as many BSA's period, and most of the ones you see are the very basic ones. In the case of Webley & Scott, the 700 is the basic model.

There are only two reasons not to alter choke: 1. You like them the way they are. 2. The gun is so rare and valuable that altering choke will significantly impact the value. This gun meets the "rare" part . . . but not the "valuable" part. Sure, it's a high grade BSA . . . but it's still a BSA. And the problem with a Brit gun and tight chokes is that, in order to get the most out of a tight choke, you need to use a relatively heavy load. At least 1 1/4 oz. And there aren't many 1 1/4 oz loads out there you'd want to put through a Brit gun, unless it's maybe a heavy wildfowl gun. So I'd say assess your shooting needs and alter that full choke however you want. I had a pair of Army & Navy 12's with one gun that was choked 005/015, which was pretty much perfect for my needs. The other one was .005/.040. I patterned the L barrel at 35 yards, and decided that unless I wanted to shoot turkeys with it, that choke had no use for my purposes. So I had it opened to .025, and used it as my late season pheasant gun. It could still do the job at 40 yards (which is a rare long shot for me on roosters) with my low pressure 1 1/8 oz reloads.
Posted By: Paul Harm Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/07/16 04:26 PM
The gun is yours, do what you want with it. I personally don't believe taking .005 out of a side is going to change the value that much on anything other than a high end gun with documentation of what the gun was originally choked with. How else would anyone know if the chokes were altered ? Maybe a expert - I don't know for sure. JMHO
Posted By: RPr Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/08/16 12:46 AM
A gun that is not being used is just a piece of pipe. Art value aside if it is mine I am going to use it. If it needs proper chokes so be it.
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/08/16 01:07 AM
People buy guns for all sorts of reasons. One of them is to display.

Would you shoot this??

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2011...ice-at-auction/
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/08/16 01:49 AM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
I haven't noticed them getting any cheaper, Larry, especially when they approach the condition of this BSA. A lot of the 700s I've seen don't look as nice as this one, either.
We have guys here who wouldn't clean the metal shavings out of a model 21 action if they thought they were original, who will tell you to alter a high condition Brit gun and who should do it for you.
The spreader load is the simplest, cheapest, and easiest solution to whatever the "problem" with this gun might be.
Really, I'd use it for at least a year before I did anything to the chokes. Maybe two years. Once you get out of the forrest, and onto the plains, that is a sweet choke combination. Not a horrible sporting clays combination, but, you will have to do your part.

Best,
Ted


Well Ted, you've hit on one significant difference between THIS particular BSA and a W&S 700: There are enough of the latter out there that you will find them in various conditions. Meanwhile, you don't see nearly as many BSA's period, and most of the ones you see are the very basic ones. In the case of Webley & Scott, the 700 is the basic model.

There are only two reasons not to alter choke: 1. You like them the way they are. 2. The gun is so rare and valuable that altering choke will significantly impact the value. This gun meets the "rare" part . . . but not the "valuable" part. Sure, it's a high grade BSA . . . but it's still a BSA. And the problem with a Brit gun and tight chokes is that, in order to get the most out of a tight choke, you need to use a relatively heavy load. At least 1 1/4 oz. And there aren't many 1 1/4 oz loads out there you'd want to put through a Brit gun, unless it's maybe a heavy wildfowl gun. So I'd say assess your shooting needs and alter that full choke however you want. I had a pair of Army & Navy 12's with one gun that was choked 005/015, which was pretty much perfect for my needs. The other one was .005/.040. I patterned the L barrel at 35 yards, and decided that unless I wanted to shoot turkeys with it, that choke had no use for my purposes. So I had it opened to .025, and used it as my late season pheasant gun. It could still do the job at 40 yards (which is a rare long shot for me on roosters) with my low pressure 1 1/8 oz reloads.


Larry,
Some people consider themselves caretakers of guns that are no longer available. You don't have to like it, but, they wouldn't think to alter a gun that was produced for a discipline that is outside their own use.
There are more than two reasons not to alter a gun.
This particular gun, with that engraving style, practically screams AA Brown at me, NOT BSA. I may be wrong, but, I'd be willing to bet it was finished by a shop known for better work. So, it may not be just a BSA after the dust settles.
I stand by what I said, earlier-that gun is a better example than what we normally see on this side of the pond, and is in better condition. 2 3/4" with ejectors is the icing on the frosting. I wouldn't be bothered with the guy who paid for the gun doing as he pleased, but, I wouldn't do it. I could make it work, right here in MN. just as it is.
I'm in good company with Mr. Snyder, it would seem.
I wouldn't screw with it. I wouldn't hunt grouse or woodcock with it, either, but, it is a fine pheasant, or prairie grouse gun just the way it is. I'd be willing to bet that 1 1/8th oz of 5s out of that left barrel would be wonderful for any ditch parrots betwixt 35-45 yards I hunt in December.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/08/16 02:45 PM
Given the results I got with my gun, after opening the very tight L barrel from .040 to .025, I had confidence in that gun at those ranges as well . . . even though I don't often find the need to take really long shots at pheasants.

What we need to remember is that .040--typical for full in Brit doubles--is no longer the industry standard. That's because modern shells with plastic wads have tightened patterns quite a bit. The result being more choke than you need, which can be pretty destructive if you do happen to center a bird with a quick 2nd shot. And again, the 2 3/4" chamber/ejector combination just isn't that rare on Brit guns seen in this country. Webley & Scott made about 30,000 guns in the 700 series which came out post-WWII, and most we see in this country were imported by companies like A&F, Harrington & Richardson, Navy Arms, Service Armament, etc. And whatever the engraving may or may not indicate, BSA's were ALWAYS--contrary to the British trade--machine-made guns. That's why they didn't sell for a lot of money. Engraving would certainly add to the cost, but that doesn't change what's inside the gun or how it was made.

And unless one has the factory records on a particular gun, there's no way of knowing--other than if the gun is marked "choke", which means some relatively minimal amount--how it was originally choked. Someone working carefully isn't going to leave any indication of an alteration--especially since someone looking at the gun is going to be comparing to the other barrel. Which, in this case, has no choke and thus offers no comparison of an original choke to a modified one. Maybe an English gunmaker would be able to notice. Otherwise, likely not.
Posted By: GLS Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/08/16 03:28 PM
Machine vs. handmade guns: Where is the line drawn?
What qualifies as handmade versus machine made?

Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/08/16 09:42 PM
Both Webley & Scott and Bonehill used machinery to a greater extent than your average British gunmaker. But there was still a decent amount of handwork involved. BSA, on the other hand, built military arms. So post-WWI, they had idle machinery. Why not turn out a double made much the same way as their military arms? So they did . . . in 1922. Cost difference? Per Doug Tate in "Birmingham Gunmakers", BSA offered " . . . the basic model for 11 guineas, or less than half what a basic handmade gun cost at the time." The Ejector Deluxe went for 19 guineas. And they didn't cut corners on materials. But, says Tate: "The gun appears to have been a modest success in the colonies, but it never really caught on in England." Major Burrard described it as "a clumsy gun". Think a comparison between a Stevens 311 and a Parker Trojan, Fox Sterlingworth, Elsie or Ithaca Field Grade. Except in the case of your typical British double, there was less machine work than on our American classics.
Posted By: Shotgunjones Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/08/16 11:29 PM
GLS, I'd submit that all machines are in fact only tools.

Where is the machine where iron ore, a tree, a bone, and perhaps a horn are inserted and the 'make gun' button pushed?

Purdey must own a mill by now, and certainly drop hammers have been used to make forgings since the village smithy first invented one.

For machines that do the thinking for the operator, and the pitfalls thus encountered, Google 'Airbus accidents'.



Posted By: Ken61 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/08/16 11:43 PM
It's interesting that many Pieper guns around the turn of the century were advertised as being "Machine Made". Now, they're considered JABCs. I read a while back that the " Big Three" in England had all gone to CNC several years ago. It's probably totally eliminated the job title "Action Filer"..
Posted By: wingshooter16 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/09/16 01:36 PM
I was reminded of Mottel Kamzoil in "Fiddler on the Roof" looking up from his new -to- him sewing machine and announcing with glee: "No more hand made clothes!- now all of them shall be made by machine."

Methinks there will always be a market for that which is least removed from the human hand.


Mike
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 12:15 PM
So much for "Tradition"!!
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 02:32 PM
Originally Posted By: Ken61
It's interesting that many Pieper guns around the turn of the century were advertised as being "Machine Made". Now, they're considered JABCs. I read a while back that the " Big Three" in England had all gone to CNC several years ago. It's probably totally eliminated the job title "Action Filer"..


Ken, I visited the H&H factory in 2001. Yes, they had CNC machines. But there was still one heck of a lot of work being done by hand: With files, engraving tools, checkering tools, etc.
Posted By: GLS Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 03:38 PM
Even in the world of handmade split cane fly rods, hobbyists no longer have to depend solely on a hand plane to taper the Tonkin cane strips as machines at home save hours of work by milling a rough taper to where a hand plane is used to finish the job.
Posted By: CitoriFeather16 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 04:22 PM
Originally Posted By: GLS
Even in the world of handmade split cane fly rods, hobbyists no longer have to depend solely on a hand plane to taper the Tonkin cane strips as machines at home save hours of work by milling a rough taper to where a hand plane is used to finish the job.


As someone who builds split bamboo fly rods I would somewhat disagree with this. A beveler can save you some time roughing strips but not hours.

If it were my gun I would leave it as is. But that's just me.

Matt
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 04:35 PM
I'd like to see detailed photos of the gun's barrel flats, so we could confirm as to whether it was procured from a source higher up the food chain than BSA.

I suspect it was.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 05:08 PM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
I'd like to see detailed photos of the gun's barrel flats, so we could confirm as to whether it was procured from a source higher up the food chain than BSA.



Posted By: treblig1958 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 05:09 PM
Probably an AA Brown & Son stamp on the barrel flats or on the action flats someplace.
Posted By: VictoryXC Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 06:10 PM
Take it out to the pattern board with a few different brands of shells and get a good sense of how it currently shoots.
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 06:23 PM
Originally Posted By: VictoryXC
Take it out to the pattern board with a few different brands of shells and get a good sense of how it currently shoots.


Based on my preliminary testing, it appears that the right barrel produces loose patterns and the left barrel produces tight patterns. That general trend has held true with all ammo I've tried.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 06:34 PM
Originally Posted By: bladeswitcher
Based on my preliminary testing, it appears that the right barrel produces loose patterns and the left barrel produces tight patterns. That general trend has held true with all ammo I've tried.


That is just why it has two barrels; one for close, one for far...Geo
Posted By: GLS Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 08:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
So much for "Tradition"!!

And Francis, speaking of tradition, Happy Birthday, USMC. Nov. 10, 1775, Tun Tavern, Philadelphia. Gil
Posted By: canvasback Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 08:24 PM
Originally Posted By: Ken61
It's interesting that many Pieper guns around the turn of the century were advertised as being "Machine Made". Now, they're considered JABCs. I read a while back that the " Big Three" in England had all gone to CNC several years ago. It's probably totally eliminated the job title "Action Filer"..


Ken, not all Piepers are JABC. All three of these are beautiful handling guns and well made. Chopper lump barrels. Interesting action. Nice, nice guns and a steal for the money. Two 16's and a 12 gauge. I just sold the 12 gauge in the bottom pic.





Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/10/16 09:30 PM
Originally Posted By: bladeswitcher
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein
I'd like to see detailed photos of the gun's barrel flats, so we could confirm as to whether it was procured from a source higher up the food chain than BSA.





Looks like pretty standard Birmingham proofs, sometime between 1925-54.
Posted By: redoak Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/11/16 12:59 AM
It looks like it has the standard BSA fluting/sculpting abound the breech and fences. And the top strap is the same shape as photos of other BSA guns that I have looked at.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/12/16 02:42 AM
Originally Posted By: redoak
It looks like it has the standard BSA fluting/sculpting abound the breech and fences. And the top strap is the same shape as photos of other BSA guns that I have looked at.





Agreed, I can't see the tiny AAB stamp or anything else that would point to outwork.

That said, it is a spectacular example of "Buy the gun, not the name" that we hear so often.

Larry, I see few English guns with 2 3/4 chambers proofed at 1 1/4oz. Damn few.

It is better than most of what we see, and would cost a bunch of post Obama deduction wages to replicate today.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/12/16 02:12 PM
Ted, you're looking for proofmarks that existed simultaneously only between 1925-1954. Prior to 1925, shot charge was marked--but chamber length only rarely. That being said, I think you'll find that most pre-1925 guns marked 1 1/4 oz will have 2 3/4" chambers. And after 1954, when the Brits went to the "tons" marks, shot charge was no longer marked. Replaced by the "tons" service pressure mark. And if the post-1954 guns were 2 3/4" (true I think of every W&S 700 I've seen from that period), they were also marked 3 1/4 tons and would have been OK with 1 1/4 oz loads--as opposed to the 2 1/2", 3 ton guns which were basically the equivalent of the 2 1/2", 1 1/8 oz guns from the 1925-54 period.

No question a gun like that would cost a fair piece of change today. But then I expect that's also true of some far more modern guns. The Parker Reproduction would certainly cost a lot more than the $3,000 for which they originally sold.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/12/16 03:37 PM
Larry,
Most of what we see in English game guns in 12 gauge is 2 1/2" 1 1/8th oz proof. Most of the English guns we find here were built prior to WWII. Few were built with 2 3/4" chambers in England, prior to the war.
Production drastically decreased after that. There were other factors involved that sent those older guns to the US, but, my original point stands. It is a nice example of a higher grade English boxlock ejector, in a level of proof, not often seen here, that is very useful to US shooters.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: keith Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/12/16 03:42 PM
You know how I change chokes for different shooting situations?

I just grab a different gun. Simple, easy, and so much more satisfying than limiting myself to owning just one or two guns.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/13/16 12:51 AM
Again, Ted . . . no shortage of W&S 700's--certainly more common than other guns from the post-1954 "tons" era--proofed at 3 1/4 tons. They'll handle 1 1/4 oz, although most people will stick with lighter loads, even when hunting--because of the relatively light weight of most Brit guns. The Brits built more "game guns" than they did waterfowlers or pigeon guns. And in their driven shooting game--assuming you're talking typical driven shooting and not the ultra-high birds--you don't even need 1 1/8 oz.

And yes, the BSA is a "higher grade" than your typical BSA. But it's still a BSA. My Webley & Scott Model 400 is the same model with which Percy Stanbury won many shoots in the UK . . . except mine is the much fancier Grade 1, with lovely full coverage small scroll, deeply chiseled fences, etc. And very nice wood. But it's still a Webley & Scott, an unusually nice one no doubt (built on the "screw grip" action) . . . but that won't make it into a Purdey.
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/13/16 12:53 AM
Originally Posted By: Researcher
Fifty years ago, when I got my 1914-vintage Ansley H. Fox straight grip, A-Grade, 28-inch Krupp barrel, 12-gauge, it was improved modified in both barrels. I had the gunsmiths at Warshal's Sporting Goods, 1st & Madison in Seattle, open that right barrel to improved cylinder. Has been my go to bird gun for fifty seasons and is nicknamed Meat in the Pot --



December 2014 --



I have certainly never missed that extra choke in the right barrel.

The BSA isn't the "Sultan of Turkey Colt"!!! Make it useful to you.




Look at Researchers old Fox, a trusted companion for decades. From the pics you can see how the slip over pad has worn with time. There is something to say about using the one gun that you can absolutely trust. Maybe that BSA will be his.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/13/16 01:00 AM
Looking back at the photos of Blade's gun: Yes, it's a very nice BSA. I have a Jeffery, also in excellent condition, with engraving quite similar to that gun, maybe a touch better. The gun weighs dead on at 6# with 28" barrels (chambers opened and gun reproofed at 2 3/4"). Priced under $4,000 by a well-known sxs dealer--and Jeffery carries a bunch more "brand value" than BSA. Not to mention the lightweight thing, which would likely trip a lot of triggers. (Tripped mine, for sure.)
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/13/16 01:07 AM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Ted, you're looking for proofmarks that existed simultaneously only between 1925-1954 . . .


According to Boothroyd's "Sidelocks & Boxlocks" BSA ceased shotgun production "around 1939".

Originally Posted By: treblig1958
There is something to say about using the one gun that you can absolutely trust. Maybe that BSA will be his.


That's not likely. I own more than a dozen shotguns. I'm primarily a skeet shooter and I have several guns more appropriate for the task.
Posted By: Genelang Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/13/16 02:56 AM
I don't have an opinion as to leaving it as is or boring it out. However, that brings to mind a fine old English gun I saw that had been restored and then slut-slapped. I don't know the maker but it was fine, Damascus barrels and engraved. Beautiful barrels with a great pattern.

The current owner, however, had the barrels threaded and fitted with chokes that extended outside the barrels end. (I don't know the proper term.) It looked awful.

Not being a bird hunter myself, can't afford it and I'm a terrible shot, I see little need to "improve" the pattern from my standpoint. However, I had a Husqvarna reamed as you describe, a good shotgun for shooting but as plain as a mud fence and will never have collector value.

I'm not a collector, on the other hand and have never owned an English shotgun. The great thing about ownership in America is you can do as you please.
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/13/16 03:09 AM
I suppose at some point I should cut the suspense . . .

FWIW, I have no intention of altering the choke of the left barrel any time soon.

I sure have enjoyed the discussion, though.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/13/16 04:28 PM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Again, Ted . . . no shortage of W&S 700's--certainly more common than other guns from the post-1954 "tons" era--proofed at 3 1/4 tons. They'll handle 1 1/4 oz, although most people will stick with lighter loads, even when hunting--because of the relatively light weight of most Brit guns. The Brits built more "game guns" than they did waterfowlers or pigeon guns. And in their driven shooting game--assuming you're talking typical driven shooting and not the ultra-high birds--you don't even need 1 1/8 oz.

And yes, the BSA is a "higher grade" than your typical BSA. But it's still a BSA. My Webley & Scott Model 400 is the same model with which Percy Stanbury won many shoots in the UK . . . except mine is the much fancier Grade 1, with lovely full coverage small scroll, deeply chiseled fences, etc. And very nice wood. But it's still a Webley & Scott, an unusually nice one no doubt (built on the "screw grip" action) . . . but that won't make it into a Purdey.


Larry,
There are 9 model 700s in 12 gauge for sale on guns international, as of right now. There are 3 on Gun Broker. Contrast that with 24 Darnes on GI, and 5 on GB.
You calling Darnes "Common" by the way?
That isn't exactly a bunch, or plenty, Larry, for the English gun. While I can't speak for sure on the 700s, almost every, single, one of the Darnes listed on either sight has significant, expensive, or, both, problems that need to be dealt with. Certainly, you can attest to that, no? We can assume a few of the 700s would have similar issues, I'd bet.
Further, I'm not positive that all 700s had the long chamber, either. Did the home market 700s typically get proofed at 2 3/4"? Bet at least some of the guns we see here came from old Blighty as used guns.
There is a problem with simply paying more for a gun because of the name that is on the rib. Doing that, you will miss guns like this one, which, give up little in quality, and certainly nothing in cost.
The OP certainly has a great gun, at slim money.
Interesting that Boothroyd puts the end of production for BSA guns a long time before those proof marks were hammered into the gun's flats.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/14/16 01:13 PM
Well Ted . . . a lot more Darnes were made than just ONE model Webley & Scott. And those Scotts had an American importer for most of the period following the 1954 proof laws. So certainly the ones coming to this country would have had 2 3/4" chambers. Earlier ones (but they didn't appear until a couple years after the war) did have 2 1/2" chambers. Problems? Never had one with a 700 series gun. They're pretty reliable . . . although, as you've noted, they don't have disc-set strikers. My Model 400 does.

And I'm pretty sure you're mistaken on Boothroyd and the proofmarks. Those are standard proofs under the law of 1925. I've never read anyone who said BSA was out of the gun business prior to 1925.
Posted By: claycrusher1900 Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/14/16 01:59 PM
This has been a very insightful thread... what about the reverse? What about adding choke to a high grade gun that was cut down? As its already been molested, would it have the same affects suggested above? Just throwing the idea out there
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/15/16 03:55 AM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Well Ted . . . a lot more Darnes were made than just ONE model Webley & Scott. And those Scotts had an American importer for most of the period following the 1954 proof laws. So certainly the ones coming to this country would have had 2 3/4" chambers. Earlier ones (but they didn't appear until a couple years after the war) did have 2 1/2" chambers. Problems? Never had one with a 700 series gun. They're pretty reliable . . . although, as you've noted, they don't have disc-set strikers. My Model 400 does.

And I'm pretty sure you're mistaken on Boothroyd and the proofmarks. Those are standard proofs under the law of 1925. I've never read anyone who said BSA was out of the gun business prior to 1925.


Larry,
The OP posted the quote on Boothroyd, I simply repeated it. I read Boothroyd when I was in high school, I think. I don't own the book.

I've seen two 700s with the problem you alluded to. It takes them out of the game for a while. I'm a fan of disc set strikers on boxlocks.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/15/16 12:58 PM
Boothroyd on BSA production dates, in "Sidelocks and Boxlocks": "I would say its production ceased around 1939 . . . " Looks like they first appeared in 1922. Which would seem to mean lots more of them proofed under the 1925 rules (proofmarks like those shown in the photos) than the earlier rules.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/15/16 04:46 PM
Larry,
Darne had importers to the US from 1952 until the original company went bust in 1979. The numbers imported were small in the 50s, but, probably on par with the numbers of 700s during the same era.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/16/16 12:26 PM
I expect that could be true, Ted. And something else that's true of both Darne and Webley & Scott: During the period Darnes and W&S 700 series guns were being imported, they didn't have much competition--in terms of numbers of guns imported--from any other maker in their respective countries. Manufrance doubles were imported for awhile, but they never really caught on in this country.
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/16/16 02:27 PM
Originally Posted By: John Roberts
That gun is worth quite a lot more than the "$900-$1500" that you mentioned in a previous post. With that engraving and condition, along with its quality and nice configuration, I would venture it to be more like a $3000/$3500 gun any day. Hell, Steve Barnett would put $4500 on it, and Kevin's would put it at $6500.
JR


FWIW, there's a very similar gun, albeit with single trigger, that has been listed repeatedly on Gunbroker with little apparent interest. Buy it now is $1,860.

Honestly, the seller does not identify it as a English gun and I assumed it was a Spanish or Turkish copy. Comparing it to my gun, I no longer think that. It appears to be the same gun as mine.

Go to Gunbroker and search for " BSA SXS 12, ejectors, Miller Trigger, 6.6 pounds " if you want to see it. Frankly, the seller's minimal description and not-very-telling photos, along with his optimistic opening bid will probably keep the gun from selling for a long, long, time.

I stand by my view that outside a boutique gun shop that caters specifically to double gun shooters, this gun's market value tops out at around $1,500 (and even that might be optimistic). The gun is WORTH more than that but I doubt it will ever sell for much more. Once you hit $2,000 or more there simply are too many other options that would likely appeal more to buyers.

ETA: I requested more photos from the seller. His is definitely an English BSA and it's gorgeous -- serial number puts it within 20 guns of mine. It has prettier wood than mine, though my engraving is nicer IMO. His gun's condition may not be quite as nice as mine but it's still a fabulous gun. And yet, it remains unsold. Honestly, if he would flesh out the description and include the photos he sent me in his auction listing, I think he'd sell the gun. It's very nice.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/17/16 12:41 PM
I clicked on the "P" logo but no photos come up. Sounds like a good gun, but I think bladeswitcher's estimate of the selling price is pretty much on target. BSA takes a big hit in the "brand value" category. That one also has pretty decent weight for a BSA.
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/17/16 12:53 PM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
I clicked on the "P" logo but no photos come up. Sounds like a good gun, but I think bladeswitcher's estimate of the selling price is pretty much on target. BSA takes a big hit in the "brand value" category. That one also has pretty decent weight for a BSA.


Click on the auction description line.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/17/16 02:25 PM
Some seeking a modest English name boxlock might not be interested in a Miller trigger. I wouldn't be.
They might be the same gun, but, your gun hasn't been messed with. I'd pay more for it, if the choice were up to me.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: redoak Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/17/16 04:31 PM
Bladeswitcher,

I do not know what the market value of your gun is, but it is a beautiful British boxlock with arguably the strongest possible barrel jointing method, vertically dovetailed chopper lumps. I think you have a real sleeper there.
Posted By: bladeswitcher Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/17/16 05:36 PM
Originally Posted By: redoak
Bladeswitcher,

I do not know what the market value of your gun is, but it is a beautiful British boxlock with arguably the strongest possible barrel jointing method, vertically dovetailed chopper lumps. I think you have a real sleeper there.



Yeah, I like it, too.

FWIW, I also like my base-model BSA with 2-1/2 inch chambers and 30" turned-to-brown barrels.
Posted By: L. Brown Re: How despicable is choke change? - 11/17/16 07:46 PM
Originally Posted By: redoak
Bladeswitcher,

I do not know what the market value of your gun is, but it is a beautiful British boxlock with arguably the strongest possible barrel jointing method, vertically dovetailed chopper lumps. I think you have a real sleeper there.


The Brits didn't care for that method much--probably because it didn't make bottom line sense, given their hand-crafted vs machine-made gun trade. Here's Burrard's comment on the BSA dovetail system:

" . . . the cost of cutting out the dovetails to an accurate fit by hand would be altogether excessive. Where mass production is carried out, special machinery can be installed for doing this work, but it would not pay the ordinary gunmaker to set up such costly machines, as he would not turn out enough guns to get back sufficient capital on the machine . . . So, from the point of view of economic manufacture, this method is only suitable for a factory where guns are manufactured in great number."
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