Recently, I acquired this fine damascus BLE by J&W Tolley, Ltd. see: http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=265536
for some photos.

The gun is in wonderful condition, and has some mysterious features that pique my curiosity:

- there are pins on the upper rear action sides indicating intercepting sears, but disassembly of the action reveals no actual intercepting sears inside.

- proof marks date to 1896-1904, but the gun has an address on the rib at: 5 Regent Place Regent St London, which Tolley apparently did not occupy until after 1909.

- the gun has Westley Richards type ejectors, and the top-lever is of the Westley Richards dolls-head type, although the lever is much slimmer than typically found.

- the gun was proofed for 1 1/4 ounces - does this indicate 2 3/4" chambers despite the 12/C mark?

Anyone out there have a similar gun, or care to comment on the mysteries of this lovely piece?

Thanks,

Mark Batten
Vancouver Island

I have a similar Tolley with 30" Damascus barrels. Mine is in less than perfect condition because the stock has been over sanded near the receiver and only one ejector functioned sporadically so after spending $300 to repair them I decided that it was fine as an extractor gun so I had the ejector springs removed. I kept the springs should a future owner wish to spend more money than me to fix them I have about $1000 total in the gun and shoot it occasionally, including last Saturday.

This gun also has the "Westley Richards" type cam top lever but, in addition to being narrower, their is no "slide" visible when the top lever is pushed to the right so the design is somewhat different. It does have an Anson & Deeley patent use number. The ejectors are "J. Dallaways Patent Ejectors". I spoke with Westley Richards and they told me that they have no records on guns sold in the white so there is no way to know if they build it.

My serial number is 68XX and dates between 1887 and 1894; it's marked "choke" which began in 1887 and the rib is engraved "1 Conduit St - Regent St London" an address they left about 1894. The gun is Birmingham proofed so there is no doubt that it was Birmingham made.

The 9100 on your gun is the serial number.

I read the thread you linked to on shotgunworld. Here is something to consider....you sound like you intend to sell the gun and are trying to ascertain value. One poster on the other thread gave an estimate in Britain of $2000 USD, and suggested that the retail price in the US might be double that.

Canada, GB and the US are all distinct markets. There are legal barriers to the free movement of firearms between them, the result being that they stay distinct. The Canadian market for firearms such as yours is significantly smaller and less vibrant than the US market, resulting in significantly lower realized prices.

If you want decent advice from participants in the Canadian marketplace join Canadian Gunnutz and start a similar thread in the sporting and hunting shotgun thread. You'll get good, local advice about the real value of your gun in the market you live in. A significant draw for membership at gunnutz is an buy and sell section called the EE. With 150,000 gun owning members, it gets the item in front of the potential market quickly.

BTW, I own a lovely J & W Tolley. I think very highly of them. But the market for English boxlocks with Damascus barrels is pretty weak. Were I to guess, I think you would do very well to realize an amount over $1500 Cdn. But that's just my thoughts....post on gunnutz and get 10 others' opinions.

Mine doesn't have ejectors, but the wood, engraving and damascus look similar (to be clear, not a Tolley just a trade made gun):


I would say if it fits you and you shoot it well and that is something you see yourself doing for the foreseeable future, unequivocally hold on to it. If none of that applies, send it to the auctions and take what you can get although the market on these IMHO doesn't seem to reflect their true value.

Your best bet, in order to ascertain it's actual condition, and thus shootability (and subsequent value), is to have a gunsmith who is familiar with English doubles inspect it. We are fortunate in that there is such a gunsmith not far away, in Halfmoon Bay, on the Sunshine Coast, "S.J. Newby Gunsmiths Ltd.". Stuart is a proper Birmingham trained gunsmith, and an excellent craftsman.

It's very likely, with 1 1/4 oz proof, that your gun came from the maker with 2 3/4" chambers. There are too many exceptions, I think, to state there's no chance it had 2 1/2" chambers--but highly unlikely. The Brits finally solved that problem in 1925 by adding chamber length as a proofmark, thus removing all doubt. As for the 12 over C, that is correct for a gun with chambers shorter than 3". 12 over LC was for guns with chambers 3" or longer.

Roalco, thanks for posting Newby's name. That's good advice and Newby and his proximity to the OP completely slipped my mind.

Thanks for the replies, gentlemen. I must clarify that the "Shotgun World" link was only to show pictures of the gun that were posted by a previous owner (I should learn how to post my own photos on this forum). They were trying to ascertain an approximate value.
I'm the lucky guy who now owns it, and I don't plan to sell!

Anyone come across other boxlocks showing intercepting sear pins, but without actual interceptors inside the action like this one?

Looking at the marks it was originally black powder proofed then re-proofed for nitro under the 1896 1904 Rules at 2 3/4". No reason why they did not have it proofed and in stock for some time before they moved it on through their London outlet. Not unusual for action for guns to be traded between different firms or built under a Royalty system. At that time Tolley were more famous for big bore and wildfowling guns they were later bought out by Skimmin & Wood who made a lot of the little 2" chambered boxlocks you will find with a host of other names on. I have a 2/3" chambered Tolley wildfowl gun made in the early part of the last century with the Birmingham address on and a latter Tolley 2" guns made when they were owned by Skimmin & Wood who would have been entitled to use the Tolley name on their guns. It's an interesting company and guns they sold were generally of a good well made type. Lagopus.....

Another Tolley. This is their "Altro" model which was marketed as a combination waterfowl and live pigeon gun. A 3" BLE circa
1905-10 which is proofed for 4 Tons /in sq.It is alive and well and yesterday afternoon I took it out for some fresh air and it accounted for 8 snow geese.I hope yours gives you similar pleasure.

Lovely gun - thanks for the photos!

What species of ejectors on this model? I don't see any pins in the fore-end iron indicating Southgates.

Cheers!

I recall reading that at one time in a part of this country, Tolley was synonymous with any shotgun, much the same as Hoover is for a vacuum cleaner. For interest, this is what IGC have on Tolley:

Name J & W Tolley
Other Names J & W Tolley Ltd
Address1 22 St Mary's Row 12 & 14 Vesey Street
Address2 19 Loveday Street (Pioneer Works)
Address3 Pioneer Works, 18 Loveday Street
Address4 10 Vesey Street
Address5 10, 12 & 14 Vesey Street
Address6 10 Vesey Street
City/Town Birmingham
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gun, rifle & pistol makers
Other Address London addresses: 1 Conduit Street, Regent Street; 59 New Bond Street; 5 Regent Place, Regent Street.
Dates 1858-1950

Notes

James William Tolley was born in 1832, possibly in Birmingham but he gave his place of birth in the 1871 census as Wednesbury, Staffordshire. William Tolley was his younger brother, he was born in 1834 and always gave his place of birth as Birmingham.
No entries for either of the brothers has been found in the 1841 and 1851 censuses. In 1858 they established a gun making partnership at 22 St Mary's Row, Birmingham. Undoubtedly, they both served apprenticeships with large gun makers, and then, aged 26 and 24, they started in business by making large quantities of cheap guns, mainly for the African market, but were soon producing higher quality guns. The 1861 census records James Tolley as a 29 year old gun maker living at 22 St Mary's Row with his wife, Sarah Ann (b.1829 in Birmingham) and and their children, Arthur James (b.1857) and William Henry (b.1860).
An 1862 advertisement stated "Gun rifle and pistol manufacturers, Contractor for Military Arms, Breech Loading Guns, Pistols, also all guns suitable for the African markets". In 1866 they entered a gun in the Field Gun Trials but came 32 out of 32.

The 1871 census records James and Sarah living at 47 Hywick Lane, Bordesley, with Arthur James who was described as an office boy, and three more sons, Henry J (b.1862), Edgar L (b.1863) and James R (b.1865). James described himself as a master gun maker. William was also recorded in the 1871 census. He was living in Tower Road with his wife, Mary Ann (nee Hughes b.1841 in Birmingham) and their children, Clara Isabelle (b.1861), Kate Evelyn (b.1864), Mary Ann I (b.1866), Minnie M (b.1868), William H (b.1869) and Nelly L (b.1870). In the early 1870s the firm moved to 19 Loveday Street. From the late 1870s the building was named Pioneer Works. By this time the partnership was a considerable success. In 1871 James Tolley became a shareholder in Braendlin Armoury Co Ltd (see Braendlin Armoury Co Ltd). By 1879 the firm started to acquire a reputation for large bore guns and rifles. James' son Henry had, on 3 February 1877 when he was only 15 years old, filed a patent (No. 461) for a drop-down barrel cocking action with a top rib extension and hook. This was his "Giant Grip" which had a hook on the top lever which fitted into a slot in the top rib extension. This was often used by J & W Tolley (see Henry Tolley of the Times Works, 65-66 Weaman Street).

On 6 December 1879 provisional patent No. 5002 was filed for a barrel locking bolt and hammer cocking action and grip safety. The description of the invention was unclear, it was not registered or used to any great extent. Tolley "Perfection" models may have used the patent. No record has been found of James or Henry Tolley in the 1881 census, they may have been in London or out of the country, but William was recorded living at 127 Albert Road, Aston Manor, he described himself as a gun manufacturer. Mary Ann was living with him as were Kate, Mary Ann, Minnie, William and Nelly L, but two more children were recorded, Ernest (b.1873), Percy J (b.1876) and possibly a third named Hilda (no birth date). Clara was not recorded in this or later censuses. In about 1883, or perhaps 1881, the firm opened a shop in London at 1 Conduit Street. George Bayliss (of the large Birmingham family) was the manager from 1883 to 1903 (when he established his own firm). At this time the firm introduced their "Altro" 12 bore side-lock or box-lock gun, about which the firm said "This new weapon is equally suitable for ordinary game, as well as for duck or for pigeon shooting. This gun will be most useful for sportsmen who do not wish to keep more than one gun for all purposes." It weighed 7 1/2 lbs and was chambered for a 3 inch cartridge. The same gun without recessed choked barrels for shooting ball ammunition was similar to the Fosbery / Holland "Paradox" and was named the "Ubique" or, when sold by other retailers such as Army & Navy, the "Jungle Gun". This had multi-grooved very shallow straight rifling which was twisted and slightly deeper at the muzzle. Neither gun proved very popular, but a version of the Altro was produced with slight choke in the right barrel which could be used with spherical ball ammunition for which a mould was provided (probably about 16 bore for a 12 bore gun).

In 1891 James, Sarah and Henry were recorded living at 25 Leigham Court Road, Streatham, London. James described himself as a gun manufacturer and Henry as a gun maker's assistant. William and Mary A were recorded living at Hazelclose, Warwick Road, Solihull. William described himself as a gun manufacturer and his daughter Minnie (or Clemmie) M, and son William H as gun maker's clerks. Ernest was described as a bicycle apprentice. In 1894 the London shop moved to 59 New Bond Street. By this time the firm's reputation as makers of wildfowling guns was well established, and the firm were appointed gun makers to the King of Portugal. At about this time they were also appointed gun makers to the Persian Royal family. It was probably at this time they opened a shop in New York. In 1901 they became a limited liability company. The 1901 census James as a 69 year old widower living with a nurse / housekeeper. He was managing director of the company. Henry was married Annie M and they lived with a son, Herbert G H, at 48 Fulham Park Gardens, London. William and Mary Ann were living in Church Road, Solihull with some of their children and grandchildren. Between 1904 and 1909 no London shop was recorded, but it certainly existed and the company was recorded from 1909 to 1915 at 5 Regent Place, Regent Street. James Tolley died in 1916, and the company was bought by Holloway & Naughton. In 1919 they were recorded at 10 Vesey Street, Holloway & Naughton occupied 10, 12 and 14 Vesey Street at that time.

From 1924 to 1927 the firm's address was 10, 12 and 14 Vesey Street but in 1928, and again from 1947 to 1955, it was 10 Vesey Street. In 1929 Holloway & Naughton (and J & W Tolley) were taken over by Skimmin & Wood who moved into their premises at 10, 12 and 14 Vesey Street (from 1932 to 1939 10 Vesey Street was occupied by R B Rodda & Co). In 1955 guns ceased to be produced under the J & W Tolley name. In 1964 the firm of Skimmin & Wood was bought by F J Wiseman & Co Ltd of Cannock, Staffordshire. See Tolley (Henry) who was probably the son of J or W Tolley.

Other Info

J & W Tolley became a major manufacturer (and one of the largest trade manufacturers) of sporting guns and rifles. In order to understand the type, quality, model, and style of guns made in the nineteenth century, one has to realise that this was a period of invention and perfection far surpassing anything seen either before or during the next 100 years. Shooting men were more knowledgeable about their guns and the "latest principles" on which they were made than they are today, and both the medium sized gunmaker and the major manufacturer could be much more flexible in terms of what they produced. Whether ordering a gun or buying it off-the-shelf, the customer usually had his own ideas about what he wanted but, in the main, he was advised by his gunmaker. Thus, the specification would list every required detail including any patent numbers for bolting mechanism, safety, triggers and ejectors etc. Although the retailer or "gunmaker" would advise the customer, his advice would depend on what he could produce himself or, more likely, by what was available at the time from the actual manufacturer of the parts or the complete gun. Manufacturers often supplied retailers with complete guns which bore the manufacturer's name and serial number on the barrels and action, but a "trade" manufacturer would usually put the retailer's name and serial number on the barrels and the action. The trade manufacturer's initials or trade mark might be put somewhere inside the action, under the barrels or on the fore-end. If a "gunmaker" had a workshop or factory, it was not necessarily an indication that he actually "made" his guns himself. Most of the medium sized firms bought guns "in the white" and stocked, engraved and fitted the "furniture" themselves. Alternatively, the so-called factory might have just "finished" guns or it could simply have been a buying, storage and transhipment office. In any event, to the customer, the retailer or "gunmaker" usually appeared to be the actual maker of every part of the gun.

This last para is perhaps rather better known to this audience, but I include it for completeness.

Tim

Very nice gun.

One comment concerning the "tons" proofmarks: They refer to the service pressure of the load to be used in the gun, not the proof pressure. It wasn't until the British switched to metric proofmarks in the 1980's (850 bar etc) that there was a proofmark that actually indicated proof pressure rather than referring to the service load appropriate for the gun, either in terms of "tons per square inch" or actual shot charge.

Guys, having acquired a .577/.500 3-1/8" magnum, I am curious what moulds reloaders here use. The gun came with two old Lyman grease groove moulds, casting 450-grain grease grooves, but I would like to try the original 440-grin smooth paper patch bullets in it. Any suggestions, help, divine intervention most welcome, thanks!
PA