I've been photographing all my guns to catalogue them properly for appraisal and dug out my Savage 311 which I purchased new in 1973. It was my only shotgun for 16 years and I still use it occasionally. I used it hard in its early days and I'm now on my third butt stock having split the others. Threw it in the trunk, shot ducks before school in the morning and then headed out right after school ended in the afternoon, often with a teacher/hunter. It hung on a gun rack in the mud room in exposed daylight and in those days I don't remember cleaning it very often. Those were different days but I digress.

What I noticed is the cyanide case colouring on the 311 remains very strong and vibrant on all exposed surfaces showing very little wear. I have not had a charcoal/bone case hardened gun for anywhere near the time I've had the 311 and it got me wondering if one method is more durable than the other?

I think durability of case colours is entirely in the lacquer used to protect them.

agreed, chemically applied colors seem to stay longer and brighter...plus, lots of exposure to direct sunlight helps case colors to fad and eventually disappear, except in hidden areas...

I beleive that Cyanide colors are not as durable (generally speaking) as bone charcoal. But, specifics of the process and the type of steel can influence this i am sure.

I've never seen a Cyanide colored gun I thought was as attractive as a Bone/Charcoal one. Plus my understanding is the Bone/Charcoal gives a deeper case to the hardening itself than does the Cyanide process. My personal preference is for the old standard bone/charcoal, regardless of longevity.

I don't know the process used by Folsom on the Baker guns from 1919-1929, but their colors did not look like the earlier Baker Gun and Forging Co. bone/charcoal case colors. The Folsom colors were darker and unusually durable . I see a high percentage of the Folsom made Batavia Leaders with still dark and bright colors.

I've noticed that a lot of the cheaper Hunter Arms Fulton and Fulton Special guns with their cyanide colors retain more vibrant colors than their better quality L.C. Smith cousins which had bone charcoal case colors. I am, of course, taking overall condition of the guns into consideration here. I also think Daryl is right about the Folsom Bakers vs. the earlier Baker guns. I still have my first shotgun, a Stevens model 220 single shot 20 gauge which has cyanide case colors that are quite strong and vibrant despite the gun having seen a lot of use.

But I agree with Miller that bone charcoal colors are much more attractive, even when somewhat worn. I don't think it takes a great deal of care to maintain case colors though, and I feel that somewhat acidic or salty perspiration from your hands probably does more damage than sunlight ever could. Because of this, a wax or clear lacquer coating is probably helpful as long as the wax used does not contain abrasives. A Thompson/Center Hawkin flintlock I own is over 40 years old, and despite a lot of usage and carry, the colors are very strong with no more care than the usual hot water cleaning and oiling after the gun is dried. This includes the areas around the pan and frizzen that get coated with corrosive black powder fouling.

Not arguing with your experience, but, mine is the exact opposite on Darne shotguns. I have handled few (none, truth be known) from the pre war era of bone pack hardening that retain a lot of color. The cyanide finished guns that came post war are often in great shape:










This photo doesn't actually do justice to how rich the colors are on this example. Late 1940s vintage R10 20 gauge.

I wouldn't want to see cyanide case colors on a big three English gun. But, I wouldn't want to see St. Ledger colors on a post war Darne, either.

Some guns look perfect with cyanide. Some, don't.

Best,
Ted

Surely this site's readers have read anxieties about Parker Repro colors rubbing off prematurely, No?

Or actually flaking off.

Sunlight has nothing to do with case color fading. Abrading them does remove them. Repro Parkers are hard to color because the lump the floor plate attaches to is braised on and not forged. The copper, tin, zinc contaminates the heat treating furnace and spoils results. This info was provided to me by Oscar. He had to redo his home made furnace to get rid of the bronze alloy that contaminated his fire brick.
bill

Parker Repros are not Cyanide colored. In fact they are not color hardened at all. They are made of modern steel, not requiring case hardening. The colors on them is actually a sort of stain applied to the metal to replicate the look of case coloring. The color will come right off easily with chemical stripper.

I have had a few Repros bone charcoal colored (by Turnbull) and the results were excellent. Just like any original parker.

The tang screw bridge on Repro trigger plates is a separate piece that is soft solderded in, not brazed. All you have to do is tack weld the four corners of it down before coloring and it will stay put through the process.

My query was to try and ascertain which of the two methods might be more durable. I am not interested in which might be more attractive although I do have my preferences.

Whether sunlight has nothing to do with fading is an interesting question as others on this forum and the Parker forum might disagree. I'll defer to their experience.

Whether salt, perspiration or other, fade the colouring, I have not experienced it on my 311.

I have had both processes done on custom guns that I have made and the cyanide colors have always been Much more durable than pack hardened colors. Some of the cyanide colors have been equally attractive,just as hard and corrosion resistant as well. The decision which process to use was based on the steel parts to be hardened.

Does anyone know if Heinzelman & Sons is still in business or offering to cyanide color firearms? With all the hazards of cyanide and the advent of more modern heat treating processes I can't imagine many shops still mess with real cyanide salt color case hardening.

Not double guns but at about the 2:20 mark the Uberti SAA clone salt bath hardening process is shown - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qYOJa8ZNxmE

They are not in business any longer. I tried for two years to reach them to no avail, and I finally called the local post office who told me the address for Heinzelman & Sons is no longer a good address.

Ron's Gunshop still does cyanide case hardening.

http://www.ronsgunshop.com

SRH

Beauty is of course as they say "In The Eye of the Beholder". Do note that I added "Personally" I have never seen a cyanide job that to me was as attractive as the bone charcoal colors.
As to hardness, note also I did not say the bone colored jobs were harder than the Cyanide, what I said was they normally have a deeper depth of case. The term "Case Hardening" comes from the fact one puts a hard shell/case around a soft core. According to Machinery's Handbook most cyanide hardened parts receive a depth of case of as I recall of .001"-.003" while pack hardened parts can be much deeper than this. In either case the depth of the Color is microscopic being only on the surface. The color being worn away is no indication at all that the hardness of the case is gone, its still right there doing its job.

WAY beyond my knowledge, but as SDH explained, the steel may determine the color case hardening method.
We know prior to WWII U.S. maker's actions were AISI 1020, which with 1018 is easily pack hardened.

Hopefully Bro. Tom will elaborate as I couldn't find my reference, but Hunter Arms was using cyanide for some parts. I believe Charles Jerred was briefly blinded by an accident in the Heat Treating Dept.

8620 seems to be the modern choice
http://www.suppliersonline.com/propertypages/8620.asp

4140 can be color cased but apparently with more difficulty, and requires an oil rather than water quench with careful attention to the temperature used.

What appears to be a 2-fer; cyanide + torch?

A friend has a Beretta SxS and the colors on the sidelocks look just awful - like someone used a torch. There's just two blue streaks going vertical, kind of like Drews' picture, but not as many.

Some modern guns made of alloy steels have been chemically colored, "From the Factory". Note that this is just colored, Not Color Case Hardened. Part is heated to around 200°F & the chemicals painted/daubed on. This can be done with Cold Blue.
Note also this is not the same process as "Torch Coloring" where the torch is held on one spot long enough to produce the color desired & Also Destroy the previous hardening. The Chemical coloring does not affect the integrity of the metal but of course will never look as well as a bone charcoal job, though can look as well as a lot of cyanide ones. I have no idea how well it holds up, but at least is easy to do again.

My Perazzi MX8 was done this way. I have worn it off the bottom corners of the receiver, but the flat areas have help up very well for several years of regular clays shooting. I don't pamper it either.

SRH

Hi Stan;
Where I first learned of this process was from an Ithaca service manual printed back in the early 1980's. I don't recall the exact dates nowe but they either were or recently had been importing some Perazzi guns. They gave full instructions for refinishing one of these by this method. There recommended Cold Blue was the old formula 44-40, but at the time I tried some Brownell's Oxpho & could see little if any difference. I didn't do any high dollar guns this way but tried it on a few cheap Stevens etc, mostly single barrels.
Ithaca recommended heating "Uniformly" with a propane torch until a drop of water would sizzle then daubing or painting the cold blue on with a Q-tip. With a bit of practise a rather nice finish could be produced.
As I said earlier even though a torch can be used for the heating this is not to be confused with the "Torch Coloring" process, which in my opinion is nothing short of a Crime.

piper: what exactly is the torch coloring process, as you under stand it?

Ed;
The Torch Coloring I am referring to is where one takes an acetylene torch adjusted to a hot flame & holds it in one spot on the metal until it changes color.
This will of course produce mottled Temper colors, but it also will destroy/draw the hardness of the original case hardening & in my opinion should never be done.

Even though a torch can be used in the chemical method I described it is not held in a manner to concentrate the heat to heat a spot enough to change the color of the metal. In fact no "Tempering" is done, the metal is simply warmed uniformly until it attains an all over temp of around 200°F. This does absolutely no damage to the original heat-treatment of the part.
I would think the part could just as easily be heated in an oven, I just described the way Ithaca wrote it up in their Service Manual, & they suggested a propane torch for the heating.

piper: agreed, one should avoid destroying original factory heat treatment...

Why are you acting like you don't know about the destructive torch coloring process Ed? Surely you remember selling many psychedelic beauties like this Sterlingworth you sold on Gunbroker:



In my opinion, you are just doing more of your Trolling again, and attempting to run away from your past history here when you used Ed1 as your user name. Don't you remember telling us in Misfires how you loved the smell of burning steel and urine? Don't you recall how you used to tell us that it was some gunsmith named old Ed Lander who did your dirty work on the torched guns you sold?

Since your memory seems to be failing you, here's some links to several old threads where people "admired" your barbequed guns:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=53571&page=1

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=30933&page=1

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=130206&page=7

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=130454&page=4

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=128706&page=6

I especially enjoyed the second one because that ended up with you getting banned for a spell. Of course, there is something more destructive than torch coloring... and that's when anti-gunners like you make calls for disarming the U.S., as you did right here in your post #407727



Or here in your post #407863:



Happy New Year Ed. Same as the old year Ed.

yawn...