Gil's photo of his French 16 today and, surprising to me, numerous mentions of the 16 lately on the board has me wondering if there's renewed interest in 16 gauges and why if there is.

My love affair with the 16 began after handling a #2 AyA and subsequently purchasing the the gun. I have used the AyA since 2006 as my primary upland bird gun and that is after a lifetime of shooting 12 and 20 gauge SxS's.
A 16 gauge is more than adequate for upland bird hunting and because of the lack of selection and ejecta options I began loading Rocky Mountain Cartridge all brass hulls and have obtained outstanding patterns with ejecta ranging from 3/4 oz. through 1 1/8 oz.

The 16 gauge always has a soft spot in my heart. The first gun I ever hunted with was an old Stevens SxS with 26"barrels. My father still has it at the farm back home. My 2 16 gauge guns are an L C Smith featherweight field grade with 28" barrels and a VH Parker with 30" barrels. Both guns are choked full/full. Although I would have preferred they had more open chokes, I have restrained from opening up the chokes so far. Below is the pic of the VH Parker cleaned up and barrels re-blued by Brad Bachelder (case color is original). BillK

[URL=http://s167.photobucket.com/user/billk_album/media/Parker%2016GA%20SxS/Parker16Ga4.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s167.photobucket.com/user/billk_album/media/Parker%2016GA%20SxS/Parker16Ga2.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s167.photobucket.com/user/billk_album/media/Parker%2016GA%20SxS/Parker16Ga1.jpg.html]

Cousin King, my interest has been renewed because I've bought a couple over the last few months. Better reloading options these days, and I'm even going to get back into the 16ga reloading business--which I'd sworn off for about 10 years.

...And here is my L C Smith...(I just had the pad added)...

[URL=http://s167.photobucket.com/user/billk_album/media/L%20C%20Smith%2016GA%20SxS/IMG_1583.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s167.photobucket.com/user/billk_album/media/L%20C%20Smith%2016GA%20SxS/IMG_1586.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s167.photobucket.com/user/billk_album/media/L%20C%20Smith%2016GA%20SxS/IMG_1587.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s167.photobucket.com/user/billk_album/media/L%20C%20Smith%2016GA%20SxS/IMG_1584.jpg.html]

I forgot my newest acquisition that is with Gunter Pfrommer currently for restoration.
Ed Kettner (made by Sauer) 16Ga hammer gun. I can't wait to see how it would look after Gunter is done with it.BillK

[URL=http://s167.photobucket.com/user/billk_album/media/Ed%20Kettner%20Hammer%20SxS%2016%20Ga/333a_6.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s167.photobucket.com/user/billk_album/media/Ed%20Kettner%20Hammer%20SxS%2016%20Ga/333a_3%201.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s167.photobucket.com/user/billk_album/media/Ed%20Kettner%20Hammer%20SxS%2016%20Ga/333a.jpg.html]

[URL=http://s167.photobucket.com/user/billk_album/media/Ed%20Kettner%20Hammer%20SxS%2016%20Ga/333a_1.jpg.html]

Among those under 50 there is no revival of the 16.
(I am not under 50... or 60, but I have never been a fan either)
If you like it more power to you. I'm not totally rational either - I like the 28.

I am 49!

Gauge is not the biggest factor when I am buying guns as a collector piece but I have upland hunted almost exclusively with a 16 gauge for the last 10 years. When I find something that I really want if it is a 16 gauge that is a bonus and I will definitely use it the first chance I get.

I recently bought a custom engraved Citori Gran Lightning with Browning Custom shop style D5G deep relief engraving by Ron Reimer with 3X wood. Being a 16 was a closer for me.

It is a 16 gauge and has 28 inch barrels with choke tubes. I like everything about it except the plastic butt plate is kind of cheap compared to the rest of the gun. I'll have to take care of that soon, most likely with a leather covered pad.

Here it is below on its first outing just the other day.



Ron Reimer is exceptionally talented. Here are some close ups:

much, much easier to sell a small bore of any gauge in a SxS. Most everyone who shots doubles already has the 12 bore nitch filled. To sell a 12 bore it has to be cheap or special....not so with any small bore double.

ROMAC, what's the 3rd bird from the right in your tailgate picture?...Geo

king et al: it has been my experience, as a reformed and retired bird hunter, that a 16 gauge gun is a better killer than a 20...12 ga always seemed like it was over kill for grouse and pen raised pheasants...most of my favorite hunting guns were of the light field grade variety, either by ithaca or fox...to sum it up, there used to be some thng sweet about a 16 gauge gun afield in the northern uplands in the fall...combined with good dogs and good company, the experience is one of life's joys...

I've been a 12ga guy since my teens. Never been recoil sensitive until lately. My annual trip to Saskatchewan this Fall shooting high speed steel 3" shells changed that and hurt my shoulder. Yes I can reduce loads, wear my P.A.S.T. recoil brazier etc but why carry the weight of the 12s when I have 16ga guns available?

I won't post pictures of my guns because all my 16s are pretty plain and common. A Parker Trojan, an Elsie pre-'13 gr. 2, an NID, a Fox sterly, a fluesie, and a couple of Britguns, a Greener and a W&S 700 come to mind. Oh, and an M/F Ideal and a Darne. I've been using them this Fall for upland and dove and notice no loss of effectiveness. Ducks still and always require a 12ga, IMHO...Geo

I think that is was a (melanistic) dark phase hen pheasant.

Thanks, you had me mystified on that one...Geo

I am a 16 ga zealot, in that I use the gauge for everything from targets, to preserve birds, through to wild birds

That said, I do not find 16 gauge to possess any unique efficiency over other gauges. I find because I use it most often that picking up a 12 sxs with 30 in barrels feels enormous, but that is more perception than reality. I also find 1 oz works well, but again that is not because 1 oz is somehow magically best, but it is by habit what I use and shoot well.

My most often used guns are both well balanced 6lb 3oz guns with 26in & 27in barrels so my 30 in 7lb gun feels huge, but that does not mean light short barreled guns are best, but simply what I am used to using. (I have to admit better skeet scores come from my heavy long barrel gun than the light short guns)

What I like best is what I like. What I believe is all gauges can do the job and different people and situations simply will like and use different stuff

To be a 16 ga guy is to live with limited ammo availability and reloading. The only thing worse than 16 is 24 gauge which is complete affectaion.

There will always be a limited crew of 16 ga guys who use and like it, but given the challenges of feeding compared to 12 & 20 and even 28, it will always be an odd one out

Great guns, but I especially like Jim's (wyobirds) #2 AYA. His gun is especially striking.

I was bit by the 16 ga bug before I was 50- was handed a 16 ga Grulla at the memorable Flatwater and it was all over. Never looked back, and the reloading is merely a fact of life- no big deal. Haven't bought 16 ga shells in years, and make sure I never have to buy any on the road.

I think may have more 16's than 12s at the moment, they run the gamut from a minty Nitro Special through my late model, cut barrel NID, past several German guns and a LeFahceaux Hammergun to end up with 2 drillings.

Not sure why but I think it's because I never fell in love with the 20's. That may change when my Francotte 20 gets back from restoration..

I hunt upland birds almost exclusively with 16GA guns.Pick up a 16 sterlingworth and then a 12.16 is much better carry gun.Have more 16s than 12s. Ammo is available. Rio's, Herters from Cabelas, Remington,etc. Or hand load.

I know why I started shooting 16's. My dad used a M12 16 every time I ever saw him shoot a gun. So naturally I wanted one.

I have a mix of 12's and 16's. Have no interest in 20's.

For me now, it's about both the quarry and the gun. The quarry (and location) sets some general parameters and then I choose a gun that fits (plus back-up). I have some 12's that are lighter than some of my 16's. And I like shooting most of them.

I have loved the 16 gauge since I was a kid. Started out with an Ithaca Model 37. Plain barrel with Modified choke. I don't know how many ducks I took with it. It was also my deer gun when I pursued them. I have since added two Parkers and a Browning Citori. While I enjoy all of them, and squirrel away quality ammunition when I find it, I find myself using my Superposed 20 gauge more and more for partridge and Woodcock.

My main upland guns were two 16 Sterlingworths for ten years or so. One choked for bobwhites and woodcock and the other for prairie birds and pheasants. A lot of great hunts with those two 16's. Both have been retired now for a good number of years.

Dennis

Did Gene Hill in Shotgunner's Notebook first call the 16 "The Queen of the Uplands"?

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=282649&page=all

My love of the 16 began almost a half century ago with my first shotgun, a Browning A-5 Sweet 16. I recognize others' view of the impracticality of the gauge, but we 16 gauge lovers are unapologetic subsets in an impractical sport, hunting, which is demonstrated every time we drive by a McDonalds or grocery store on the way to a hunt. (with attribution to Chuck H.) Gil

Wingshooter, 16ga lovers are now far better off as far as ammo goes, both in terms of availability and expense, than used to be the case. I just had 3 flats of the Herters 1 oz loads delivered to my house. $6 a box, $5 shipping. For those that don't need low pressure and/or short shells, that's a real plus. And I'm anticipating that the hulls, while not as good as top quality target hulls for 12-20-28, will work OK for reloading.

I got started in the 16ga game in 1974. Had purchased my first sxs (Ithaca SKB 12ga) a couple years earlier. Finished grad school in 74; bought myself 2 graduation presents: 1964 Ford Fairlane stationwagon to haul me, hunting partners, and Brittany bird dog; and a pretty high condition but plain Jane pre-war Sauer 16 I found in a local gun shop. Like just about everyone else back in those days, I had short chambers lengthened to 2 3/4" (and chokes opened), and I was off to the races. I'd have to do a count to determine how many 16's I've owned since. Vic Venters did an article on the 16ga in Shooting Sportsman, and he'd asked previously--I think on the SSM BB--for 16ga owners to report on guns they've owned. Pretty sure I was over 100 at that time (never more than half a dozen or so at a time). In the article, Vic said he wouldn't include my total because it would skew the numbers.

Several years back, I switched to light 12's (reloading issues simplified) and vowed I wouldn't play the reloading game again. I've owned 16's since but haven't shot them as much. Now heading back in that direction, and am looking for simpler reloading solutions with the Herters now readily available along with wads for light (less than 1 oz) reloads not requiring filler etc.

There's nothing like a tidal wave of interest in the 16, but a definite ripple in the water. Grouse hunters belonging to LODGH (the Loyal Order of Dedicated Grouse Hunters) submit an annual survey, and that shows more of them shooting 16's than was the case 30 years ago. Although the Spanish share of the sxs market is declining, you'll see a much higher % of 16's from Spain that was the case 30 years ago. The Turks are following suit. Another special run of Citori 16's. FAIR (I. Rizzini), which imported quite a few 16ga OU's for New England Arms, is now offering sxs as well. Merkel also has both sxs and OU 16ga models available. And then, of course, there's the new Browning Sweet 16.

All in all, I'd say that the "Queen of the Uplands" is in better shape than she has been in quite some time.

From the above, is it safe to say the 16 never fell out of favour for strictly hunting upland or most duck shooting within 30 yards from a blind although shell availability says otherwise?

While I love the 16; it is a marginal gauge in terms of general use.

While members of this board have a strong following for it as I do, it is a small percentage of ammo sales, and even smaller in terms new gun sales.

While 16 will not disappear, nor will it grow significantly

12 & 20 dominate for better or worse. Compared to those gauges the 16 cannot compete with the numbers sold and used.


I own more 16's than any other gauge. I love my 16's Purdey, Greener, Louis Christophe, and Fox Sterlingworth, but I am also a realist.

Yes, it is a good and functional gauge, but it is self deception to see it as more than marginally popular with a small percentage of the overall market for ammo, gun sales.

My personal belief is that the big thing which dropped the popularity of the 16 was Skeet Shooting. A game originally introduced for the benefit of upland gunners as opposed to Trap, yey it by-passed the #1 upland gauge. Skeet was also responsible for the great popularity of the 28 gauge. It was virtually dead prior to Skeet.

In my view, the best looking shotgun profile is that of a straight stocked, splinter gripped, double triggered 16 gauge SxS built on a 16 gauge frame.

I, too, love my 16's. I have more shotguns in 16 gauge than any other gauge, with my very favorite being a pre WWI Merkel, next favorite a Max Fischer (Berlin) hammer gun, then a pre WWII BSW (Simson) over/under. As stated above somewhere, reloading has become simply a way of life with the 16 gauge, but there are indeed FAR more choices available in the market now.

My dad's only shottie was the zoli sixteen, so that's what I started with. I did borrow twelves from fellow hunters, which sealed the deal on making the zoli my first choice as an all-round hunting gun. It's a very nice upland gauge and configuration to carry in the woods, and I've found it will keep up with most guns in the duck and goose blind when shooting bismuth, and do it it style. My M12 sixteen also fits the bill very well, but I mainly use it water fowling, with the odd upland hunt thrown in.

Already started loading up for next season.

One can get extra light 12ga that is as light as 16ga game gun. French doubles w/o bottom rib come to mind. The big upside to 12ga is wide variety of loads including low recoil ones even in BK shot and slugs. The only bright spot for 16ga is that Kent Bismuth 1oz load is less expensive than 12ga counterpart. While 16ga is better than 20ga it isn't better than 12ga.

I would bet dollars to donuts that if equal amounts sixteen guns and ammo were as available as 12ga......sixteens would be just as common, and maybe favored. If I had to have only one gun, a framed (6.5 lbs. + or -) sixteen gauge would do it all.

Not sure what the new sixteen A5 weighs in at, but if it's steel capable and light.....

Hopefully I'll get to shoot one soon.....

I like Browning Arms because they give ole' guys like me hope. Matter of fact I looked at new Browning bolt gun. It was marked .300H&H. I rubbed my eyes and pinched my nose and dang it still was .300H&H.

I completely agree with this. It's the limited ammo that hold most people back.

This too!

I totally agree.



Matt

This raises an interesting question, does ammo availability drive gauge choice or does gauge choice drive ammunition sales?

Which is the dominant factor?

My gut is it is gun use that is more dominant.

GaugeMates or ChamberMates in 20 gauge to fit my 16 gauge just in case I'm out in the boonies in McKean County, Pennsylvania or Chamberlain, South Dakota. Or anywhere in between.

I would suspect that if 16's were as common as 12's, they would be as desirable as 12's. I'd think all the clay target games, not just skeet, influence gauge popularity. Not necessarily gun up, but trap always seemed to me like better prep for the uplands than skeet, though variations like SC probably works out as intended.

To be in realm of possibility we would need fleet of dedicated (proper proportion and weight) 16ga guns plus readily available wide variety of loads like "reduced recoil", non-tox, spreader loads,..... That is less likely than working man being better off economically in four or eight years than they're today.

Since I can"t seem to find a proper Woodward, I guess I'll have to settle for this ugly stepchild:

http://stevebarnettfineguns.com/ww-greener-shotguns-for-sale/wwgreener-premier-sxs-16-gauge

6 lbs. 5 oz. of 16 ga goodness!!
Best regards,
JBP

Very, very nice and with Knights of Templar monogram on the trigger guard, bravo. Previous owner must have been a baron at least. It is strange that "Dukie" would pick W.W.Greener when Holland & Holland or a Purdey would seem much more appropriate.

Nice! I would need to grouse hunt with a small blanket though, just to have something to lay it on when I take a leak!

Lack of ammo v.s guns? If benelli or beretta made a scaled sixteen auto loader....and if ammo (phez, duck, goose and upland loads) were available at most any gun shop......there would be a lot sixteens being shot. The A5 is geared to a specific clientele, being a humpback and all. Bass pro sells 16ga. steel #2 and #4's. I just might need to look into a BPS....if it's not to heavy?

P.S. - I've been spoiled with my new to me BL-4 20ga. weighing in at 5lbs. 6 oz.

Nah, all you would have to do is pass it on to your gun carrier/bodyguard/servant.

You do not want BPS even with shorter barrel and straight grip stock 16ga scales 7lb or more. The best upland pump was sadly long discontinued 6.5lb 12ga Model 12 Featherweight 26" barrel with 1/4 choke standard.

King, it's probably best to look at the 16 as a very versatile UPLAND shotgun. The nontoxic options are very limited for waterfowl, but because you can shoot up to 1 1/4 oz of lead through a 16--or at least through SOME 16's--it will handle any upland needs with no problems.

As noted above, the exclusion of the 16 as an "official" skeet gauge certainly hurt. So did the advent of the 3" 20ga. So did American manufacturers cutting corners and building 16's on 12ga frames. I think it will retain popularity especially among sxs shooters. We're clearly a niche market anyhow. But a properly proportioned 16 is an excellent upland gun.

One factor affecting the desirability of the 16 in a SXS is that typically it is less expensive to acquire than a 20 gauge, but often weighs the same or less than a 20. I have 3 before or between the wars Birmingham boxlocks that weigh between 5 lbs. 12-13 oz that were acquired for slightly more than a 12 gauge,but considerably less than a 20, fit and finish equal.
In the past few years looking at French auction sites, I note far more 16 gauge accessories listed than 12 or 20 gauge. That, to me, is an indication of the popularity of the 16 in France.
While one of the Birmy's was re-proofed for 70mm, I hesitate to shoot the 2 3/4" 1 oz. loads because of the age of the gun and wood. I am content to either handload or shoot Polywads, handloading either 3/4 or 7/8 oz loads. I use the cheaper Herter's 16 gauge 1 oz. loads for dove and snipe shooting them out of my Ithaca 37's or M12.
Gil

Larry;
I think that is a pretty good summation of the falling popularity of the 16. Trap shooting was always primarily a 12 gauge game. The 16 was more popular in the uplands for many years. Those who shot Skeet as well as hunted naturally turned to the 20 for an upland gun for they were most likely set up to load for it. After Skeet was introduced the 20 gradually gained in popularity then with the introduction of the 3" chambering it gained even more. I am fastly approaching 79 years of age & can well remember when one saw more Southern "Bird Hunters" (Quail) carrying far more 16's than 20's & this applied to pumps & the Hump-Back Browning as well. The Browning Sweet 16 was a very popular gun among Bird Hunters.
In my part of the South at least one might go Turkey hunting, Dove Shooting, Duck or Goose Hunting etc, but nobody went Quail Hunting, they went Bird Hunting.

Miller, the 16 was reasonably popular in my part of the country as well, with pheasants and waterfowl being the primary species when I was starting to hunt. Back when we could shoot lead at ducks, a 16 wasn't much of a handicap. And although those Belgian Sweet 16's aren't ultralight by any means, they're one heck of a lot lighter than an A-5 in 12ga. Quite a few 16ga pumps in use back then.

I think that many men switched to 16s in their autumn years because of weight. My Grandaddy shot a 12 ga. S x S until he shot it loose, then bought a 12 ga. 1897, and believe it or not, wore it out on quail, ducks, doves and turkeys. In his later years he bought a Rem. M11 16 ga. which now resides with me. I have to believe it had something to do with weight.

SRH

Stan, I think it had a lot to do with weight. And, for that reason---picking up on your word "men"---a reluctance to advertise the reason.

To our credit, I've noticed during the time I've been here there's been increasing comment about the smaller gauges with no apologies for using them.

It raised the notion in my head that there may have been a lot more 16-gauge going on than we thought. We just didn't want to appear effete!

Maybe that's why they call it the "Queen" of guns.


_____________________________
Me thinks you think too much.

What? Are you guys serious? Not carrying a 16 or 20 because you might appear effete??

Maybe I'm weird but I've never chosen gun gauge to make my dick look bigger or to prove my masculinity to anyone. And I don't know (knowingly) any hunters who do.

James, you're not common. I know lots of guys with magnumitis who believe bigger gauge bigger man. They brag about using 3-inch and more to get the job done. I don't know if it derives from notions of masculinity or knowing better or having the money to buy consumerism's latest gimmick. I do know they look down on smaller gauges in a duck blind. There's as much ignorance afield as anywhere else.

I used the word effete with OED meaning of feeble, exhausted or worn-out, lonesome, not as feminine as so many believe. Good catch, though.

LOL Maybe it's a Maritime thing. Actually King, I would be more impressed by a guy who gets the job done in an effective and humane way BY USING A SMALLER GAUGE. More skill required, in theory. And I'm not too impressed by the trend to 3 1/2" 12 gauge. Seems to me to be a version of blaming your equipment. But that's me. When everyone is doing one thing, I look very closely at doing the opposite. A little contrapuntal by nature.

I think many of us here are that way. Hell, we all use SxS.

The 16ga isn't "Queen" of guns I don't bother with this gauge because I can get 12ga English or Continental double that is very, very light. If I was into American classics I admit buying 16ga A.H.Fox with certain barrel weight or Parker Bros of certain frame size and barrels makes the endeavor vary, very worthwhile.

I went through the 16 gauge thing in the 80's and well into the 90's. Then I got over it. I realized it offers nothing over a 20 gauge in today's loadings, even moreso when you factor in the 3" 20. Maybe 60 years ago, but not today.

Today, the 16 gauge is a purely emotional choice, and I understand that 100%. Sometimes, it is a situation of choosing the gun, not the gauge, where you say "well I love this gun, even though it's a 16, and I'll take it anyway". All things equal otherwise, you would have really preferred a 20. Not necessarily every time, but more than not.

And I would not rule out owning another one. I still have my Dad's 16 ga Model 37 Ithaca that I grew up shooting and haven't shot in 50 years, but I certainly don't want another 16 at this point. Good luck and good shooting to all those who do.
JR

Wow, an actual discussion about guns without politics. I love it.

Another reason weight may be more of a factor these days, in addition to hunters/shooters getting older as a group: what most of us do for a living. There are fewer and fewer of the "strong back/weak mind" jobs (as my dad described his, moving tons of steel around in a John Deere factory) than there used to be. Blue collar factory jobs, mining, farming . . . fewer and fewer people engaged in those professions. And in general, with more machines doing more of the work, even those jobs aren't as physical as they used to be. Let's face it: Comparing to our fathers, uncles, grandfathers etc . . . a lot of us are wimps!

The Boy's first gun of his own was a 16, and he used it for everything from quail to turkey to deer
http://fwp.mt.gov/mtoutdoors/HTML/articles/2007/oldmanandtheboy.htm

I couldn't find the quotation, but I think Ruark observed that a gentleman shot birds with a 20, but only a show-off used a .410.

I remember that story, Drew, from reading it many years ago. Especially the part about him pushing off the safety too soon and the old man taking the gun from him.

Thanks, SRH

An old friend's dad was a quail guide in Emannuel County, Georgia (eastern central Georgia) as a young man in the 1930's. His clientele was from the north who rode the train south and stayed at Coleman's Lake, a resort of sorts on an oxbow of the Ogeechee River. He ran a string of dogs and always hunted with a 16. A successful businessman, once he got his M37 Ithaca in 16 gauge, that's all he ever used. Until he got too old to run his dogs, he always had a pair of older dogs, two younger and two pups, with the pups learning from the older pointers.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but I had always heard it called "Queen of the uplands", not queen of guns. A brief google search even had one writer calling the 20 "Queen of the uplands." I'm no wimp, and have made a living with my hands for 40 years. So call me Goldilocks, 'cuz the 20 feels too small, the 12 too big, but the 16 is just right- for most of my upland. I will still haul out the big gun for crane, waterfowl, and turkey.

"I realized it offers nothing over a 20 gauge in today's loadings, even moreso when you factor in the 3" 20. Maybe 60 years ago, but not today."

Although the twenty can do what a sixteen can do in the uplands, a twenty can not do what a sixteen can do in the duck or goose blind...ergo the sixteen has one over the twenty in my humble opinion. Ergo making the sixteen an 'all-around' great gun.

I've tried a twenty waterfowling....not a pretty sight.

If I could only have ONE gun (upland, waterfowl, deer with slugs, turkey), a sixteen would be the one.

You need to be more specific about the 20 and waterfowling. Teal are waterfowl, and the 20 is plenty gun for teal. Blanket statements like that are misleading at best.

SRH

Geez King, if you had been paying attention to the intended subject matter here instead of posting so much of your anti-gun, anti-NRA, and anti-2nd Amendment rhetoric and support for anti-gun politicians here, perhaps you could see that interest in 16 gauge doubles has been steady and consistent for many years:



But considering your past history here, this feigned interest in the 16 gauge was rather predictable because you have pretended to be a gun guy numerous times in the past whenever a lot of people began to notice your real agenda here.

If you were at all serious about doubles, you would have noted the strong and steady demand for smaller bore doubles by many upland game hunters. You would also notice the premium the 16 gauge guns get on the open market despite the more limited ammunition availability and choices. You and your little brother Larry would also understand that choosing a 16 or smaller bore shotgun is more often simply a choice of using a gun that intentionally handicaps oneself to make hunting and shooting even more sporting. I have one hunting buddy who looks down his nose at me when I bring a 16 gauge for grouse, because he uses a .410 double almost exclusively. I doubt if he'd even hunt with me if I brought a 12, or heaven forbid, my light 10 gauge Syracuse Lefever.

And if you were truly interested in vintage doubles, you certainly wouldn't be making arguments in favor of lead ammunition bans that would place a much greater damper on all vintage doubles and especially the 16 gauge. Here's a quick and concise summation of many of your anti-lead ammunition diatribes:



A couple days ago, you accused me of being malicious in another thread. I wasn't able to respond in a timely manner because I just went without internet access for a couple days while flintlock deer hunting. I can understand why you might say that I am malicious when I replay your own words and give my opinion of your motives and veracity. But don't you think that staunch support for an extreme anti-gunner like Barack Obama like these statements are malicious and trolling when posted on a firearms related forum??? Apparently not:






I guess I could use the words of old colonel and surmise that your intentions here are "specious" at best. In other words, misleading, deceptive, false, spurious, or fallacious. He seems to think that referring to statements by you as "specious" is preferable to calling you dishonest. That's funny. He also apparently is too dense to understand sarcasm, so I've made a mental note to avoid it with him in the future. Specious... hahahaha.... it does have a nice ring to it.... almost like pathological prevaricator, don't you think?

You spoke too soon, Some cannot exercise self control when it comes to staying away from politics and subject diversion of threads.

Agree your opinion of 20 and water fowling, Stan. I had a bad morning 30 years ago on ducks and didn't take my 20 to the blind for 10 years. I wouldn't think twice now about taking it (SKB o/u 3-inch), including on geese, because I wait until they bow their wings and their feet come out. The 20 is a waterfowling specialist's gun as the .410 in all categories.

Sorry, but you're pretty much wrong. Today's 20 ga. loadings, especially in 3" form, are great for waterfowling. There are very few choices in 16 waterfowl loads to equal those in 20 ga.

https://www.midwayusa.com/20-gauge-3/br?cid=21270

https://www.midwayusa.com/16-gauge-2-3-4/br?cid=21271
JR

old colonel, the board is doing commendably well on self-control with politics, particularly during unprecedented current fulminations which make kid's stuff of so much of earlier goings-on here.

We should give credit where it's due, and keep the board free of partisan and personal bickering as it has been doing for the last little while. It's clearly members' conscious effort to do the right thing for the board.

This is a great board.

Back about 10 years ago I guided 5 guy's from Louisiana for 3 consecutive years for ducks and geese, a total of 30 hunts. They all used 20 ga. autos with Kent Tungsten 3 inch. These men could out shoot most anyone using any other gauge. I remember time and again being in and out of the field in 1.5 hours with 40 geese and often as many ducks. They killed the geese as dead as any 12 gauge shell would be expected to do.

Don't think the gauge really matters as much as understanding the limitations of the instrument and shells you are using. Far too many do not take the time or have the inclination to really understand what they have in their hands and what it can and can not do.

Tungsten Matrix--at least until Hevi-Shot came along--was about as good as any nontoxic load out there. Agree that once you go to the 3" 20ga, there are far more choices for waterfowl (and heavier loads) than are available for the 16ga. Now if you can find some of those old Kent 1 1/4 oz TM 16ga loads, they are far killers for sure.

Those are two absolutely true statements. Especially the second one.

SRH

I stand corrected then....possibly the twenty is the best all-around gauge? Luckily I have three of them!

Nonetheless, my twelves rarely get the call.

A 20 gauge or 16 gauge for geese? For ducks, definitely. For geese, never. That's irresponsible in my book and I think some of you guys are getting a little carried away with these smaller gauges.

To easy to miss a shot and we all do and wound a bird that cannot be found.

If I'm going for ducks and geese, I'll take the 12 gauge.

It is irresponsible if hunters don't consider limits of skill, gauge, distance and prey. After 75 years of duck and geese hunting, I've found the knack of responsible shooting from a blind, as you have for yours. The irresponsible part of your post to me is wounding a bird that can't be found. All birds will be found with a dog. I've not retrieved exactly three birds in my life: when my Lab couldn't get a dead one that slid under the ice, another called in because he would have drowned from exhaustion chasing a diving bluebill in white-caps, and one that set its wings a kilometre way and dove into the bay; retrieve impossible.

What too many do not take into consideration, when talking about the use of the sub-gauges, is distance. Density and energy is what kills a bird .... period. IOW, there is no difference in a goose hit with 6 BBs from a 10, 12 or 20. The trick is having enough skill to choose your shots carefully and limiting the range on the smaller gauges so that the density in the pattern is the same. It's not shooting skill as much as it is discipline not to take longer shots that would be okay with a 12.

Explain to me the difference in energy with a #7 1/2 pellet from a 12 ga. and one from a .410. Again, density can be controlled by distance.

SRH

I'm a 12ga believer, but I can't agree that there is no place for a 20 on a goose hunt. My buddy shoots a 20ga with 3" high speed steel twos and they kill even the big Canadas just fine. We hunt from a blind over decoys. Pass shooting might be a whole 'nother story...Geo

I would add that pass-shooting geese is iffy with any gauge.
JR

Hey King, it happens. I know you made comments about safety and exceptions, but when does Joe average get to hunt. Only after one has a finished retriever, nice boat, dedicated guns and exclusive hunting grounds? I've seen easily retrievable game on private property or on a closed wildlife area that would be hugely irresponsible for a legal hunter to attempt to retrieve, ethics aside. Doesn't mean we can't give it our best try.

Absolutely, craig. I felt snobbish to express myself as I did but it's part of me. I posted several times over the years, if I were king I wouldn't permit waterfowling without a dog. There's too much pursuing without respect for wild creatures. I've always responded to buddies' phone calls to bring the dog to "I know where it is but it isn't there." Not as a favour but a duty, pleased to do it.

There was enormous blowback here years ago when I said I had hunted in season with commercial market hunters and poachers who had a higher standard than most when it came to retrieving birds. They would never leave a wounded bird even if it meant putting off the skiff, spending the best gunning of the morning to get it, sometimes stripping off naked to make the retrieve.

These men were recognized as "best gunners" on our Eastern Shore. It was my privilege to deliver the eulogy for one of them, a neighbour. I mentioned the above because in totality of their existence---$2-a-pair for ducks in a fishing village of subsistence living, an orange for Christmas, bare feet to school in summer and gumboots in winter---they found an ethical balance.

Your point is a good one, craig. It's just that I'm disappointed in what I see of legal hunting today.

Truer words never said.

Density of the pattern at greater distances. And few have enough discipline to not shoot when everyone with a 12 gauge is shooting.

Testing of a 16 gauge showed that it will print a denser pattern at 40 yards then a 20 gauge 3 inch at 30 yards. They're not even in the same league as a 12 gauge at distances beyond.

"Testing of a 16 gauge showed that it will print a denser pattern at 40 yards then a 20 gauge 3 inch at 30 yards. They're not even in the same league as a 12 gauge at distances beyond."

You're not providing enough information to make your statement quantifiable.
The same charge with the same size pellets at the same velocity, using the same type hull, wad, primer and powder is theoretically the same whether from a 20, 16 or 12. Pattern may vary as we all know each gun has its own peculiarities.

What testing and by who do you refer to?

My readings in Jones lead me to concur with Tamid in that there are more variables to be accounted for the statement to be considered, must less validated. Shot hardness, velocity, weight of charge, wads, ......... Even if all variables are made even the 2D pattern is far closer than the ten yard difference you note.

Given the same size of shot & charge weight pattern density will be determined by three things. First is pattern percentage. 2nd is pattern distribution. Third is o9f course range. The first is obvious, a gun with an 80% pattern will have more density than one giving a 50% pattern. The 2nd is core thickening, two guns may have the same number of shot in the 30" circle, but one of them due to a higher core thickening may have more in a 20" circle. This gun would have higher density, thus a bit longer range, on a "Centered" shot, but a bit less on a fring hit. All patterns of course get thinner as the range increases. Nuff said on that. First goose I ever killed was a little Blue with a 3" 20ga shooting 1¼oz #4. 2nd was a Canada killed with a 3½" 10 ga firing 2oz of #2, both in lead days.
If either of these could have been called "Irresponsible" it would have been the Canada with the Big Ten. It was a pass shooting situation, my first attempt at it, so I was not truly Proficient on such shots, probably pure Dumb Luck that I hit it. When we dressed there were two shot holes found, one in the wing tip which would not have even slowed it down, the other centered its chest & killed it in air, it just hit the ground & bounced, not a flop.

Why limit the 12 gauge in that way? OK, throw the same exact charge the 12 gauge will through a denser pattern easily over the 20 and 16 gauges, but it doesn't have to as it can throw a far bigger charge.

I'm waiting for someone, anyone to enter their 20 gauge against the 12 gauges in trap. How come we never hear of that?

treblig, you are changing the argument. The issue is DISTANCE ...... DISTANCE. Nobody is saying the sub gauges can compete with the 12 toe to toe, just that they can do the job at lesser distances. You said it was "irresponsible" to use a sub gauge on waterfowl. Hey, there is nothing magic about the number 12.

SRH

Stan, discipline and distance. Few have enough discipline not to shoot and many hunters always have trouble with distance. But not all waterfowl only geese I think that the subgauges should never be used.

I believe the article was in Shooting Sportsmen in either 2004 or 2005.

I can agree with "few", but some do. Those are the ones who get the job done with the sub-gauges ...... like the clients from Louisiana. The few who can prove that the gun can do the job. No?

SRH

Oh yea, there are some highly disciplined hunters that are also great shots out there.

Then, was it right for you to say that it was irresponsible (for anyone) to use a 16 or 20 for geese (note that you didn't specify distance)?

SRH

Late to the party, but here goes...

Very nice Steve. I love pics of flushes.

SRH

Looking good Steve!!

All I'm saying is that the best tool for the job when hunting geese is a 12 gauge and that involves all aspects of hunting including differentiation of load availability, the shell availability in local stores, etc.

When using a subguage the window is just to tight and leads to far to many chances for a cripple and you have to consider overconfidence plays a big part as well. Only when I see an Olympic trap shooter enter a 20 gauge to go up against the 12 gauges will I change my mind. And that, will never happen.

Geese are for the big boys. And big good beats little good all the time. Ask any football coach.

Dead is dead, and a goose killed with a 16 at 25 yds. is just as dead as one killed with a 12 at 30 yds.

Thanks for the discussion.

All my best, SRH

Treblig, you made a specific assertion about pattern density and gauge, you do not support your assertion beyond opinion and vague reference. While I make no arguement that traditional 7/8 20 ga, 1oz 16, and 1-1/8 12 loads yield identical patterns, but if you compare a 1 1/8 - 16ga with a 1 1/8 - 20ga there is not a ten yard difference in pattern densities.

In AC. Jones "Sporting Shotgun Performance" held on p.172 A two yard difference in pattern size between 20 & 12. The pattern density of equal weight loads are not the whopping 10 yards plus you seem to hold.

Yes 12ga loadings offer more heavyweight options, but to the hand loader given equal weight loads you can shot 16 and 3inch 20 much closer than you describe.

While I onceheld the shot stringing yeilded radically different results, Jones and other have shown minor percentage differences.

The challenge of trying to shoot 12 ga heavyweight loads through 16 and 20 sxs guns often goes to the weight and age of the gun with felt recoil and max pressures.

The percentages escape me when they compared similar loadings in the 16 gauge and the 20 gauge. But the differences were impressive. I just can't get any closer than that on the article. Anyone with a collection of Shooting Sportsman Journals?

I'm saying in my experience and what I've personally seen, you hunt more than I do and you're right dead is dead whether at 25 yards or 30 yards.

With all due respect treblig....to follow your logic, no one should hunt geese without using a ten gauge with 3 1/2" 1 3/4 oz. shells....as it would definitely throw out more density then a twelve, and be more responsible. A 12ga. is considered a sub gauge to the ten....is it not?

I've posted many a photo of my sixteen's ability. Not 'much' gets shot within 25 yards fearing destruction of the meat I'm trying to harvest. The deeks are set at 30 yards, and they get taken either just inside the last deek, or as they flare, just outside....most of the time.


Your point is well taken though, as most here will agree....get them within range of your gun and shell's capability. No argument there.

I disagree with king on 'needing' to use a dog. Where I hunt, one can always walk out to the area of a downed bird (which at Long Point can be a few hundred yards or so, or more), or a boat is readily available to chase down any cripple. Since I have never hunted a coastline, I'll take kings word on that.

Queen Blanch 16 SLE 28" Whitworth Steel barrels,2 3/4" nitro
1/4 & 1/2 chokes, 6 lbs even,#2 of a pair.Floats like a butterfly,stings like a bee.

That is an outstanding gun, Terry.

Hi Tamid.I obtained the gun about 9 years ago out of England and with the help of Toby Barclay of Heritage Guns,who has a website devoted to John Blanch guns,I was able to contact the owner of the #1 gun.We carried on an email conversation for quite a while.He obtained gun #1 as a 12th birthday present.Lucky him...Took me a few decades longer to get #2.

I see your point but feel that the 12 gauge throws effective enough killing patterns at distances that the average shot, which most people are, can kill a bird as tough as a geese cleanly. The ten gauge is overkill. Plus shell availability further negates the ten gauge slight pattern advantages. There is just too much chance for error in sight distance, in judgment, in overconfidence, when dedicated goose hunting with the subgauges.

All I'm saying is yes the "Queen" of shotguns is the 16 gauge but the "King" is the 12 gauge.

Stunningly beautiful gun, Terry!

Agreed

The "average" shot, if there is such a person, shoots at the goose ........ the above average shot shoots at the goose's head. This is also consistent with many of the better shots' practice of focusing on the leading edge of clay bird, and watching the quail's head on the flush.

I think I have told this before, but for the sake of making the point I will again. There was an old quail hunter near Athens, GA, back in my college days. A friend of mine hunted with him and said he was the deadliest shot he had ever seen, and asked him how he learned to shoot quail with so few misses. He thought a moment and replied, "Well, I don't know. All I know is that when I see his eye clearly I shoot". Anyone who has ever had a covey of wild bobs take off will understand the discipline required to do this. Kinda like Ted Williams being able to see the seams on a fast ball.

SRH

"Assuming" patters of equal percentage & like distribution the range of different loads are equal to the Sq Root of the charge. Thus 1oz should have 89% the range of 1¼oz. The 1oz would thus be equal at 36yds to the 1¼ oz at 40.
"IF" on the other hand you fired the 1¼oz out of a 12, a sixteen short magnum & a 3" 20 magnum I have grave doubts you find a Yards worth of difference in the three. I think you would find as much difference between any two different guns, even in the same gauge, as you would from gauge to gauge.
As to "Discipline" I believe you will find as many, Probably More, shooters who when they have a "Big" gun feel they can hit anything they can see.
I recall reading a story in a hunting mag years ago where the writer was making the case for a pump gun as the ideal Duck gun. One of his reasoning pints was that the hunter would only shoot twice & reserve the third shot for cripples. "Maybe" he hunted that way, but my thoughts then & still are the "Average" hunter as long as there is a bird in the air & a shell in t5he gun Will Shoot. I have grave & serious doubts that hunters who enjoy & use a double leave any more cripples due to the "Lack" of that reserve shot than do those using pumps or semi-autos. The Discipline to know the limits applies just as much at one end as it does at the other.

The 3" 20 has taken its share of knocks for a long time. But guys I respect--including a writer who's never been a fan of 20ga mags--tell me they're a lot better now than they used to be. And pretty obviously, in the case of steel shot (where there's basically zero pellet deformation), you're guaranteed to get a denser pattern with a 3" 20ga than you are a 16 at any range. Reason: The 3" 20 carries a heavier shot charge.

Slight diversion: In the Army, Infantry is the "Queen of Battle". Artillery is the king. And the Queen tells the King where to put the balls.

OK then...12ga. Barrels on a sixteen gauge frame, that uses 12ga. loads the size of twenty ga. Shells....lol

Mr. Brown with all do respect, when you were in weren't they still using flintlocks?

More on point I've taken geese with a 16 gauge using Kent's Tm but that was when we were out duck hunting and I'm an average to below average shot at best.

I believe these are the loads of which you speak, Larry:



I have a good stock of these laid in, am I to understand they are no longer produced? I haven't hunted waterfowl in thirty years, but, seeing the results on real, wild, pheasants, with these, makes me question how someone could say a 20 gauge load, even a 3" 20 gauge load, could be superior. I don't own a 20 that I would be in a hurry to feed 3" ammunition. A lot of them kill on both ends when loaded like that.

I was checked by a warden at a federal WMA, and I'm sure he thought he had me on a non-toxic shot violation when he saw 16 gauge ammunition.

Best,
Ted

A rattle:

Interesting takes, gentlemen, but in reading the entire thread I see only one ref to the 'size' [frame's circumference] of the gun being of import & to me that is one of the nicer attributes of the 16's, particularly in the SxS iteration(s), a little more bore that carries as well as a twenty. Many 20 gauge guns are built on 16ga. sized frames, making them a bit larger than if built 'to scale'. There are exceptions, of course. Merkel, at the urging of Joe McBride in Austin after some years of discussion finally started building 16/20's, which made a delightfully smaller than normal framed/sized 16. There are others.

I may be mistaken on this, but believe that for many makers, they only had a couple of frame sizes, a 12ga. and a 16 ga. that was also used for making 20 ga. guns. That certainly held true for the Model 12 Winchesters, inclusive of the 28ga. guns. Plenty of folks here that can chime in w/hard fact(s) on specific makers.

From my own limited experiences w/16's that began with an old Stevens 311 type w/two triggers that I didn't have any sense whatsoever about using correctly at the time.. but became a fast learner after shooting it w/two fingers inside the trigger guard, ouch(!), to using some much nicer guns as I was able to afford them; it just seems that many of those guns have had a good 'feel' to them, meaning that esoteric was present in sufficient quantity to make hunting w/them & shooting them pleasant. Only speaking to upland applications as I have no experience using one for waterfowl & I'm not sure it would apply from a blind in any case. I liken some 16ga. SxS's to the 3XX series Beretta gas guns that started w/the AL-1 that so many sporty clays shooters have adopted to good success.. they have a liveliness to them in the hands w/o being cumbersome to bring into play. In the same breath, I'd not wish to shoot significant quantities of 1oz./28gram loads in a lightweight 16 anymore than I would a 20. 7/8's oz. or 25 grams is sufficient for clays, most upland game and enjoyable to shoot.

With the Model 12, there was a 12 gauge frame and a 20 gauge frame. The 16 and 28 were built off the 20 gauge frame.

Ted, I have a pile of the old TM 16's as well. Don't shoot as much waterfowl as I used to...sold off my 12 gauge TM. But I'll be happy to use the 16 gauge stuff.

James

Thank you for that, treblig. I disremembered; its the very reason why those guns are so lively!

I still shoot dove w/one of them most seasons at least once.

Leaving my post unedited, so your correction makes better sense to anyone coming along and reading the thread. Much appreciate the quick correction too.

You're very welcome Sir, I know what you mean about the Model 12, a lot of people love those guns.

No . . . but I did carry an M-1 for a long time. Broke the stock on the one I was issued in Basic . . . overly enthusiastic "butt stroke" on a bayonet assault course. Thought my $78/month pay would disappear for awhile to pay for it. Instead, the drill instructor--who I think was pretty surprised, because M-1's make excellent clubs--got a big smile on his face and said: "By God, that's the spirit of the bayonet!"

No, I was thinking of the Kent 1 1/4 oz TM loads--which they stopped making. But like any 1 1/4 oz load, those could also kill on both ends in a 16ga, if it happened to be a light one.

Larry,
I hardly ever use an 1 1/4 in a 12! My Dad bought a lot of locally produced (Federal, right up the street) 1 1/4oz loads prior to steel becoming the law. If he saw them out of season, on sale at the gas station, he would buy them all.

I have a bunch of 12 gauge lead 4s in that load that are pretty much useless to me.

1 oz loads, in a 16, is about all I can stand. Out of the Nitro, those loads are lively, but, doable. I wouldn't shoot sporting clays with them, but, for mopping up late season roosters, at local WMAs, on birds that have seen some pressure, they are about perfect. More walking than shooting (sometimes, it becomes a bit of a track meet) in that case, and a 16 works well with those loads, even more so if the place is non tox only.

Best,
Ted

Ted, pity demand couldn't keep around Kent's 12ga TM 2 1/2 inch 30 grams fibre wad 7500 psi. A joy to shoot and poison for waterfowl; I used only No. 5s.

I have to brace my feet with current Kent TM 1 1/4 on high-angle shots using Beretta 686. (I gave away a flat for xmas presents for that reason.)

In my opinion a light weight 16 gauge upland bird gun is not a good waterfowl gun and for waterfowl, I use a much heavier 12 gauge. Nor do I want to haul a heavy 16 gauge shotgun around the uplands or any other heavy shotgun regardless of gauge.

My #2 AyA weighs 6 lbs. 2 oz. choked Imp. and Mod. patterns 1 or 1 1/8 oz. loads beautifully from her 2 triggered controlled barrels. For upland birds 1 and 1 1/8 oz. of ejecta is all that I need.

Also, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I think that the slim profile of a sidelock 16 gauge SxS with a straight stock, splinter grip and two triggers is what a Upland Queen should look like.

As a general rule neither the 1¼ oz 16 short magnum nor the 1¼ oz 3" 20mag is loaded to as high a velocity as the 3 3/4-1¼ 12ga load thus can be shot out of a bit lighter gun. I have shot a few 3" 20's from a 6¼ lb gun. You definitely knew it went off & would certainly not desire to shoot a round of clays with it, but under hunting conditions with thick clothes & not a bunch of shots fired in rapid order it wasn't bad. Have also shot a handload oif 1¼oz from a 16 of similar weight @ a lowered velocity & it was even milder. Shooting steel of course you have a lighter charge weight with higher velocity. Space in the shell is really the limiting factor for either a 16 or 3" 20 when it comes to waterfowling. They were both adequate for most of it when Lead was still legal. Non-Tox was their downfall as far as waterfowling goes.

Miller,
True that. While researching a 20 gauge Prandelli & Gasperini (Richland Arms) double I came into a while back, I found an article by Francis E. Sell in the 1977 Gun Digest, titled "The Twenty Comes of Age" detailing his notion of using the 20 with big lead loads for geese and ducks. Within three hunting seasons, most of what he wrote was obsolete with regards to waterfowling and heavy loads of lead shot.
The same issue had an article on the then new Ithaca 3 1/2" Mag 10, an ominus bellwether of things to come.
About 1978, or so, I used a Remington model 17, with 2 3/4" high brass loads of lead 6s, to hunt ducks near Cold Spring, MN., on a small private lake with a maximum depth of about 6 feet or so, and wild rice covering about 80% of it. We had spectacular hunting, and at no time did I feel under gunned. When I did my part, the teal and mallards rained from the sky.
I never hunted ducks with a 20 after that day, and never hunted ducks again after steel became mandatory.


Best,
Ted

Francis Sell was a big proponent of the 20ga 3" mag. That Richland 707 isn't a lightweight 20, and I'm pretty sure I recall that they were offered with 30" barrels. More or less Sell's idea of a "light duck"/moderately heavy (for a 20) upland gun.

A Richland 707 is the 3" 20 of which I spoke, They were available in 30", but mine was 28". As I recall they could also be had in 26". By actual measurement on an accurate scale mine weighed 6¼ lbs. They were as I recall generally advertized @ 6 3/4lbs with the 30" barrels. As I recall I bought this one mail order for $129.95 & it was the last gun I bought that I didn't have to sign a form for. It was of course a long way from a "London Best" but was a lot of gun for the money. Ended up giving it to my Son when he started hunting with me & he still has it. He did kill several ducks with it though the only waterfowl I ever personally shot AT with it was that one Blue Goose. This was all in the days of lead. The use my Son made of it on ducks we were hunting in a swamp & shots were close as far as ducks go. He killed his with 1oz of #6 shot quite dead, as they say you can't get any Deader than Dead.

Miller,
You probably didn't save the box-here is what it looked like:



When I took this gun out of the box, two years or so ago, it was the first time it had been out of it since it was purchased, the same way you got yours. Former owner seemed to think 1965. He has about 15 years on you, and lived to tell about the Battle off Samaar in WWII, but, his memory is a little fuzzy.
Mailman brought him a box with this gun.



The chokes are noted on the box as being Mod and Full. The marks from the proofhouse in VT tell a different story, however. They have the stamp of 2 and 3 stars, proofhouse speak for modified and improve modified. Francis Sell had very clear notions of what the bore of a 20 gauge gun should look like. His 1977 article spells out 1 1/2" forcing cones, 1 1/4" long chokes and .620 bores, about .005 overbore. The choke parallels were 1.110", and he was very specific about that. The barrels on my copy duplicate what he wrote, and are polished exceptionally fine, beautiful work on the interior polish and finish.

A copy of the 1968 Richland Arms catalog, featuring the 707:



The 20s were available with 30" tubes. The barrels on my gun measure
27 3/4", and, like yours, it comes in right around 6 1/4 lbs, not svelt for a 20, but, for one designed to launch 1 1/4 oz loads of bigger lead shot at waterfowl, probably realistic. I think it is just a few ozs heavier than my 16 gauge Nitro Special, but, that gun has 26" tubes. Neither gun is burdensome, IMHO.

By the time of the 1977 article, Mr. Sell had moved onto a Bernardelli two barrel set gun, with 28 and 30" tubes that he had restocked himself. It had a long, capped pistol grip, and a beavertail, very similar to the stocking of the Richland guns he wrote about earlier in his career.

It is common for people to contact me wanting to know more information on a French gun with no makers name on it. What is even a bit more odd is owning this gun, with both an importers name, and a manufacturers name on it, and finding not much about either. I can say for sure that a magazine writer somehow convinced an Italian firearms manufacturer to build 20 gauge 3" guns to his exact thoughts and then lent a hand to the importer handling the guns by doing some of the markerting.

If anyone has anything to add about the Richland Arms guns, I'd love to hear it. The model 200 Richland Arms guns in the same catalog ($50 cheaper than the Italian 707, not an insubstantial sum in the mid 1960s) were indeed available in 16 gauge, and I've never seen one. I have seen a Richland model 200 in 20 gauge with 22" factory barrels, and it was a fairly low quality piece.

Best,
Ted

"The chokes are noted on the box as being Mod and Full. The marks from the proofhouse in VT tell a different story, however. They have the stamp of 2 and 3 stars, proofhouse speak for modified and improve modified."

Ted,
I wasn't aware that Proof Houses marked the actual constriction of choke as proofs. I always thought it was the manufacturer who did that.

Would you please tell me which Proof House you are referring to that stamped the chokes on the gun you are referring to.

Thanks.

Gardone, Val Trompia. Italian guns from the 1960s, for sure, were marked with actual choke constriction.

French guns are not. Just finished bore diameter, 9" from the breech. French guns with choke tighter than about Improved Modified are marked, "Non Pour Le Balle".

Best,
Ted

Ted;
The date stamps on mine said 1967, though as I recall I ordered it just a bit prior to the 1968 GCA putting mail order out of business. I had ordered it From Herter's Inc. Had reqd Francis Sell's articles & had been looking at these guns & then a new catalog came in from Herter's with it priced @ $129.95 or $50.00 off the $179.95 list so ordered one. The next gun I bought was my First Lefever, a 30" 12ga FE damascus for which I had to sign the 4477 form. In 1970 I had it shipped to Italy for a new set of 26" steel barrels, forget exactly what chokes I asked for but they ended up @ .012" & .024". Once I got it back it became my #1 go to gun for near everything I hunted. I was into reloading so just adjusted the loads. As I recall at that point in time I gave $1230.00 for the FE & than around $150.00 for the new barrels. I did keep the original damascus barrels intact though. I could have saved a few dollars by letting them strip them for parts, but wasn't enough to justify losing the originals in my opinion, have never regretted saving them. At the time I was having doubts but was not fully convinced the damascus ones were safe to use. Had I known then what I now know I would not have had the new barrels made.

Ted, I note that on your catalog copy, the 30" 20ga is advertised at 6 3/4#, the 28" gun at 6 1/2. Sounds like you may have won the wood lottery. But in any case, that's not light by 20ga standards. I've seen an Ithaca SKB Model 100 20ga or two with 28" barrels (and all the 20's were 3" guns, except the relatively rare--in sxs--skeet guns) that come in a bit under 6 pounds. Wouldn't like to touch off a 3" mag in any of those . . . and in fact never have. Especially the 30" Richland 707 would probably be OK for no more 3" mags than you'd be likely to use in a day's hunting. Wouldn't want to shoot a round of trap with them, however. But they mostly are--as someone noted--somewhat lower velocity than the 1330fps 12ga 1 1/4 oz load that was the standard for a long time . . . and a whole lot slower than today's 1500 fps 1 1/4 oz 12ga loads.

Donald Trumps snarky and somewhat crude though extremely hot Northern Italian cousin.

Who is Val Trumpia?

________________________________
Double Gun Jeopardy.

Agree Larry 6¼ to 6 3/4 lbs is not particular light for a 20ga. Personally though I would not want one much lighter if chambered for 3" shells I have had a couple of older 20 gauge guns chambered for the shorter shells which weighed a full 7 lbs though. One was a Syracuse Arms A grade with the ejectors which could be turned on or off. It was 28" barreled also. Shot it well enough but sent it down the road, figured if I was going to carry a 7 lb gun it may as well be a 12. ONLY advantage I've ever seen to a Small Bore is if its ultra light to match the bore.
That Richland 707 though at 6¼lbs with capability of the 1¼ oz loads in 3" shells for limited shooting was a pretty versatile gun though. While certainly not fancy it did seem to be a solidly made gun, capable of much hard use. The limiting factor was to the shooter, not the gun I would not have wanted to have shot a round of trap with it with those heavy loads either, but didn't really notice the "Kick" that much under ordinary hunting conditions. For my use though I primarily shot a 12 oz load, as I recall I only bought one box of the 3 inchers, just had to try them out.

Pardon my misque on spelling-if I wrote, spoke and read better in Italian, I'd know more about my old gun. I think Gardone is correct, anyway.

Best,
Ted

______________________________________
Out of production Italian guns for $200.

Shoot, Ted, if I spoke Italian better someone might, if they tried really hard, think it could possibly be some form of vaguely human esque communication. I could write a book about the stories of my "Italian" in Italy.

That Richland looks like it would make a pretty nice squirrel gun.


_______________________________
Today is where your book begins...(the rest is still unwritten) Natasha Bedingfield

I did the vast majority of my Squirrel hunting with a .22 LR, but on occasion I would do a bit of "Meat Hunting" with a shotgun. The 707 was great on the bushytails on the occasions I used it. I loaded a few of those 3" empty hulls with 1 1/8oz of #5 lead & they were sorta like Ma Bell, they'd reach out & touch someone. Most of my squirrel hunting was in the Tennessee Hill country & iot didn't really matter if said squirrel was on the up-hill or down-hill side of me. I usually kept one of those in the full barrel & a load of 1oz #6 in the modified barrel for squirrel. I had mostly greys, only rarely al Foxy.

I fed myself for several years at the end of the Carter presidency with hapless squirrels, a Remington 552 Speedmaster, and garage sale .22 shorts. I don't need a shotgun for squirrels. Those were lean times, and I packed the freezer in the basement that I rented with enough squirrels to last a good long time.

Haven't eaten one since I found full time work in 1982. If I need them again, bless their furry little hearts, they are still there. I haven't forgotten it. Haven't voted left of center for my whole life, since Carter led from behind, so to speak.

The picture doesn't really do the Richland justice. But, Miller has already pointed out, here, and elsewhere (as have I) that the 707 was a hell of a lot of gun for the money.

Better pictures, here:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post449134


Still would love to hear any history of the companies involved with the guns.


___________________________________
No, really-A USMC sniper instructor
taught me how to shoot a .22, when I was a kid.

Ah, the 552 Speedmaster, accurate and reliable, always worth a plug, Ted. I've owned one for 50 years.

552 Speedmaster is about the only .22 semi-auto that still handles shorts. The silent killer with CCI short hv hollow points.
JR

The trick isn't handling shorts, it is handling shorts interchangeably with longs, and long rifles. That is a good trick, and the 552 and earlier 550 did that well.

I have a Glenfield .22 auto, that will shoot shorts, but, won't cycle the action and reload itself. I think my Ruger 10/22 did the same thing, but, that gun had such a lousy trigger, I got rid of it in short order.

I think I answered a question for you about your 552, prior to you buying it, over on the old SS board, John. My bolt action 581 Remington is no more accurate than the 552. Glad you have enjoyed the accuracy.

Winter, 1980, left me a hungry boy, out of full time work, and with a 3 year old 552, and two boxes of shorts. Dinner on Sunday at Mom's, but, the rest of the week I ate squirrels. Some bunnies, but, mostly squirrels.
I had ammunition left in the spring, and a full Montgomery Ward chest freezer, left by a former renter, in the basement.
Life got better, but, not soon enough.

Can't sell that gun.




Best,
Ted

Great story Ted. Reminded me of the one my dad told me. He let us boys shoot his single shot bolt action .22 one weekend in the Santa Cruz mountains above Santa Clara Valley. Would have been the '60s (don't know what happened to it after he died). Driving up into the hills he related how one weekend during the Depression they didn't have anything to eat, and grandpa gave him the .22 with the last 10 rounds they had, and told him to make 'em count. He shot ten squirrels but only came home with nine, as the last one hung up in the tree impossible to retrieve. He said grandma made a big stew out of them, and at least for a while, hunger was but a memory.

Mike

The secret to the Rem feeding the shorts was its, floating chamber. The barrel was bored out at the back to receive this chamber which was about the length of the short case. As it started to recoil the gas pressure hit the end of the chamber as well as the case & thus gave it more surface to push against so the impetus to eject the short. When a LR was fired the case extended beyond the chamber sealing the gap so it only received the thrust from the case head. Ingenious.& no doubt patented though I have never tried to look it up.

Mike,
Really early on in the game, I learned from my Dad NOT to use long rifle rounds for squirrel hunting. The standard and high velocity rounds of long rifle would leave a bushy tail stuck on a branch, where the lowly short would knock his ass down.
I did use LR to dispatch skunks caught in my fox sets, as there seemed to be less drama (and, stench) involved. We also used LR to snipe at raccoons on a friends farm, working a night shift to keep his Dad's sweet corn from being marauded by those wretched beasts. We would park a car with the headlighs on down the road that ran next to his Dad's corn, and have at 'em as they crossed in the middle of the night. It was fun until about midnight, then, it was just another 3rd shift job.
We got paid by the kill.


I have a lot of time involved with .22 rifles, but, not recently. My kid will shoot for about a half hour, then reaches for some electronic device of some sort.
I would have shot (and, did a few times) from sunup to sunset.

Best,
Ted

I was a terror on the squirrel population here too, Ted, as a kid. Was given a .410 J C Higgins double at 8 yrs. old. They thought a .22 was too dangerous to turn me loose with, they said. My family didn't eat squirrel, so I sold them out of my Dad's country store for $.25 each, uncleaned. Shells for the .410 cost me 12 cents apiece, so if I had to shoot twice I broke even on the squirrel. When I finally got my first .22, a Remington Nylon 11, I did the math and decided that within a few seasons I was going to be rich!, one .22 bullet cost waaay less than a 3" .410 load of 6s, and would knock a squirrel out of the very top of those tall virgin yellow pines. I got $.50 for a rabbit and $2.00 for a 'coon. Market hunting at an early age.

SRH

Stan did you ever notice that you couldn't sell a rabbit, squirrel or coon at all without the head attached? Too many guys around here would slip in a cat or a rat shot over the hood of a pick-up for any of us to trusted selling headless game...Geo

Yep. When I started trapping I would catch a lot of 'possums. 'Possums sold good as long as they were alive when the buyer came. I'd come home from running the 'line many mornings with 3 or 4 'possums waddling around in the back of my pickup. They couldn't climb out. They'd all be gone by lunch, usually.

SRH

When I was 12 or so, as soon as leaves fell, after school I would hit the woods down the hill from my house, on the creek that's now dammed into a reservoir, and kill a mess of squirrels with my Dad's 16 ga M37 Ithaca. Got back to the house in time for him to help me clean them, then Mom would fry the young ones and make gravy for supper with biscuits. Dang...
JR

I did most of my squirrel hunting with a lowly Mossberg bolt action with detachable magazine (Clip). Used standard velocity LR's. The Mosssy would feed the shorts, it was a tack driver with the LR's but got about a 50% pattern in the 30" circle with shorts.You just could't hit anything with them, have no idea why. I did not like the sonic Crack of a high velocity round, found it would clear a tree with the first shot, where with the standard velocitry cartrifges they would nearly always go right back to cutting in just a minute or so.
Only ones I ever had any problem getting to the ground after being hit were a few that hit a crotch in a limb on the way down. don't think in that case it would have mattered if you had shot it with a BB Cap or a .30-30.

Assigned to the Charleston South Carolina Naval Base in August back in the 80's and the guys who were stationed there were talking about opening days of their deer season.

Deer? Now? In August?
Yep, a deer a day all the way until December.
I'd ask what they used and they all said shotguns, usually a Ithaca Model 37.
Why a shotgun?
The snakes man, all of the snakes.