I want to explore shell options for use in 2 1/2" chamber guns.

Yes I know I can purchase 2 1/2" shells from RST which I've done in the past. They are very good. But they are quite expensive for me. I could reload the same but I'd have to start from scratch buying a dedicated reloader and supplies.

I see that Herters (Cabelas) sells a a low recoil, low velocity shell (1080) made with Cheddite hulls, but it's 2 3/4" long.

What are the opinions about using these shells for occasional SC, skeet an trap? My 2 1/2" chamber guns all have sufficient measured wall thickness.

Could you post the link for the Herters low recoil shotshell at Cabelas?

Scroll down to the bottom here for a few modern load pressures
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview

Herters for Cabela’s are by Cheddite and pressures are not reported
http://www.chedditeitaly.com/en/index.php

Scroll down about 1/3 here regarding Bell's long shells in short chambers study
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/edit

Skeetx:
Here is the link:
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Herters-reg-Target-Loads-Per-Case/1545677.uts?searchPath=%2Fbrowse.cmd%3FCQ_page%3D0%26CQ_search%3Dherters%252bshot%252bshells%26CQ_st%3Db%26categoryId%3D734095080

They are the 1 oz. LR target loads. No details beyond LR (low recoil?) and velocity of 1060 is given.

RST @ $10
B&P @ $8

and then Herter's Low recoil at $6

I find the Herter's to have a much sharper recoil than the B&P.
RST has some models that I question their usefulness.

I shoot equal numbers of both Herter's and B&P each year.
I'd say the B&P F2 7/8oz 12ga is about as good a shell as there is for practice. Low recoil, low pressure, good patterns, etc.

I shoot Caledonion shotshells in either 7/8 or 3/4 ounce in all my English sidelocks. They are available here in the US.
Last qoute I got was $55 plus shippimg.

Clapper,
Which RST shells do you find questionable? Although I don't use them for target shooting, using Estates and AA's, I haven't been disappointed in the RST's for bird hunting.
I ask in case there is something I'm missing.
Karl

Karl, I've shot a pile of their lightest loads and they were marginal at best. As I recall they were Falcon lites and Ultra lights in 2.5in But hey, it's also market driven.

When you start lowering the payload and the speed to too low a level, you reach a point of diminishing returns.

To bad more manufacturers don't publish their pressure data. But probably not enough shooters care. I am hoping that lower recoil and slower speed might equate to lower pressure, but maybe not.

If they did, it would only be good for a week at a time. Powder mixes change, and as long as they meet SAAMI, the manufacturers of "generic" target loads move around I'm told. Most people don't care.
You could always send some to Tom Armbrust. Someone may have already.

I too find RST's too expensive - that's why I shoot Polywad Vintagers.

http://www.polywad.com/vintager.html

Not sure why more on here don't use or recommend them.

Clapper,
The RST's that I use are the 2 1/2 papers in the 1150 fps speed range. I wasn't aware of the problem with the Falcons and the ultras, thanks for the tip.
Karl

Don't take my word for it.
Buy $20 bucks worth and decide for yourself.

It's kinda like shooting #10's at woodcock. Some people like that.

Clapper,
Your advice does sound correct, as you have used them. As far as 10's for woodcock, I used to use 5 & 8 1/2's but after taking a couple of long pokes at them this season, 7's seem like a good idea!
Karl

I was surprised in Cabelas yesterday to see 2.5 inch shells by Herters, but the only load appeared to be OO Buck!

I use 7/8's oz #7.5, just because I use that load all the time. Safe to use in every 12 I own.
This year's prospect. My Shadow Oak Bo grandson.

I need to have a certain confidence in the loads I shoot, and, they have to be safe for all my damascus shotguns.
But not 20 different flavors.

When I test patterns and observe my breaks, and then shoot some libbies, I get a pretty good feeling on what works for me. Some of the vintage loads are pretty anemic, even with 7.5's.

Everyone else's mileage may vary of course.

Mark, you've seen me shoot an awful lot. All of my guns are short chambered and I always reload 2 3/4" hulls. Never shorter. And these are in guns from 1869 to between the wars. So far I've still got all my pinkies. Need I say more?

Thanks Joe, and I've seen you break more than a few targets too! 👍

Thank you, have been looking for some inexpensive 12 gauge 7/8 ounce light loads
Mike

I have one of Bo's Grand daughter's:



That Bo pooch gets around, no?

I'm surprised nobody mentioned that 2 3/4" shells loaded to specs that fall below the service proof for the gun are fine to use. I did run the Winchester low noise low recoil 7 1/2 loads in my MacNaughten, with good results on grouse and woodcock, back in the day. That tip came from Kirk Merrington, but, it would be wise to find a stouter load, or, gun, or, both for pursuing ditch parrots when it is really cold.
I don't think Kirk ever hunted pheasants in late December in MN, or, the Dakotas.

The older I get, the less tolerant I am of going on Easter egg hunts for ammunition.
French triple proof, at 70 or 75, or anything else out of Europe at 2 3/4", or 3" is my friend.

My 2 1/2" chamber guns are all gone.

Best,
Ted

I used to buy B&P 1 oz High Pheasant 6's for hunting and the 7's for target but supply was spotty so invested in a reloader. If your handy you can just about adapt any old 12ga 2 3/4" loader to load 2.5" shells. My last reloader was an old MEC 600 for $25 at a yard sale and MEC makes a short shell adaptor the just pops in and out. Hulls are free at the trap range, BPI has components and data and you never have to worry about finding shells. I don't even bother with 2 3/4" shells any longer, shooting 2.5" in everything.

The OP specifically said he didn't want to get involved in reloading. I take his word for that.
I offered 3 price pts for MKT purchase.

I looked at the Caledonians, and they are $4/cs less than the B&P's which I KNOW, from having shot thousands of them,
are low pressure, and low recoil.

I've shot thousands of the Herter's L/R cartridges, and they are absolutely low recoil, but I cannot say they are low pressure. Since the payload is light, and the speed is lowish, I would guess there isn't any reason for them to exceed 7500psi, but as I said, I don't know.

And RST's products make me feel good when I look at their packaging. It shows I am a discerning shooter.
But ALSO, they're of consistently high quality, their pressures are known, and they work hard to support vintage shooters.
That's worth an extra couple hundred bucks a year to me. I absolutely love their 1oz #5's for pheasants.

I don't shoot many heavy loads in old guns. It's not that they weren't designed for it, it's just that I focus on my shooting, and not breaking my vintage toys.
So, I pound out a flat (or more) a week of the Herter's, and then move into the B&P's as a shoot approaches, and then into the RST's for game when fall arrives.

Using a low recoil light load is a great way to work out shooting problems.

I do occasionally envy the breaks that 1300fps cartridges provide. They obviously hit much harder. But hey, dead is dead. And I don't want my game all shot to pieces.

I also use the RST 1 oz # 5-6 when hunting pheasants and they work just fine. I wont ever scrimp on ammunition when going afield. I was just looking for less a expensive alternative for casual clay shooting so I'll give the Herters LR shells a try.

RST is highly recommended. B&P have become scarce.

If you'd like to try something different:

http://www.classicshooting.com/collections/holland-holland-sporting-cartridges

PolyWads are plentiful.

SRH

Does anyone know the pressure data for the H&H and/or PolyWad loads?

RST will gladly share their pressure data and because of that I shoot their shells.

Polywad

Give Jay a call, if you need to know pressures.

478-836-4932

SRH

H&H, or any other CIP-approved 2 1/2" load, will have a maximum service pressure of 10,730 psi. But they'll very likely be well under that. Brit shells are a good choice, but most of those you see in the States are field loads rather than target loads. Thus heavier than you might want for target shooting, as well as faster. But they'd be OK in terms of pressure.

RST, Holland & Holland and Polywad shells are all good, I'm sure. I just wanted to stay away from $10 to $11 per box shells.

Reload, Mark. So simple and flexible. Be happy to share tried and true data with you.

YUP and you can trust JOE, he has been there, done that in
low pressure loads.

Mike

Mark, I had three flats of B&P Comp 1 shells arrive yesterday. They're not a lot cheaper (especially through the new importer), but they are awesome shells. Published pressures on the 1 oz. load is 6300 and velocity is 1140 I think. Natchez Shooters Supply had them at old pricing and delivered to the doorstep, they were $95 per flat. They used to be cheaper, but they have a new importer and pricing has jumped. They also have a 7/8 oz. load that's even lower pressure.

I'm interested in finding low pressure 16ga 2 1/2" formulas. Currently reloading to Hodgdon spec about 7100 psi. My old shotgun is proofed to handle this psi but I would like to go lower to be more on the safe side. Thanks!

A used 12ga Mec single stage can be bought quite cheap. Then buy a " short kit " from Mec, or make your own. Then you can make about any low pressure/recoil load there is. It's fun shooting your own loads and the Mec with a short kit should be under $150. I've been reloading and shooting my old SxS's for about 20 years and have always used 2 3/4" shells, but I know they're all low pressure, so I don't worry about it. Good luck.

I sent a PM to you on data.

Note the lower the pressure the tendency is for dirtier the load. Depending on your gun you may not need to go lower than 7100 PSI.

Roll crimping 2 3/4 loads into 2 1/2 shell is a viable option given the load fits.

I'm having difficulty visualizing a 16 that's safe to shoot with anything, but in which you need to use sub-7K psi loads. You go too low in pressure and you start having problems with reliable performance if it gets very cold.

Larry are you in jest on your difficult visualization?

He's in Alabama, Larry, Alabama. Same latitude as me roughly. No problems with loads as low as 5100 psi, even with IMR 7625, here, winter or not. Doesn't get "very" cold down here.

SRH

If it's for a 12 ga, you could try a published load I use to save on shot and recoil:
7/8 oz lead
Federal 12S0
Remington hull (STS)
Win 209
about 15 grains of Clays (I don't have my book handy to give you an exact number, but it is a published load).

It comes in well under 8000 psi (close to 6000, IIRC) and there should be plenty of room for you to roll crimp it down to 2 1/2. It's a nice, easy-shooting load.

Here's some low pressure 12 gauge loads for vintage guns published by NSSA. They are silent as to hull length, I assume 2 3/4", but if 2.5" hulls are what you want, they could be used with 2.5" hulls by roll crimping or a Hartin crimp on a press.
https://www.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/ceretto.pdf

Note that I said " . . . NEED to use sub-7K psi loads . . . " Pressure isn't directly related to recoil, so you aren't going to reduce recoil by reducing pressure (unless you also reduce velocity and/or shot charge). The danger from pressure is either catastrophic failure (blown barrel, cracked frame, etc) or maybe, over a long period of time, causing the gun to shoot loose sooner than it would with lower pressure loads. But please identify for me, with reference to proof or service pressure standards, any gun in which a load developing 7K psi isn't well under its service pressure limit. I note that a 7,000 psi load is already almost 4,000 psi under the service pressure standard for CIP "standard proof" shotguns. Drew Hause has pointed out, with reference to contemporary data, that vintage guns didn't have service pressure limits significantly lower than modern guns--which means that 7,000 psi already provides a very significant "safety cushion". Looking for a lower pressure load to give you even more of a safety cushion, you might well end up with a load that's not as satisfactory as the one you've been using.

In summary:
1. The "standard" U.S. turn-of-the-century 16 gauge load was 2 1/2 dram Bulk Smokeless with 1 oz. shot; "standard" British was 2 3/4 dram.
2. Service Pressure for 16g 1 oz. 2 1/2 Dr. Eq. (1165 fps) BULK Smokeless was about 7000 psi; 2 3/4 Dr. Eq. (1220 fps) Bulk Smokeless about 8500 psi. The gun was likely PROVED at 13,000 - 14,500 psi.
3. Only in the last few years did shell makers provide fps rather than expecting the shooter to translate Dr. Eq.
4. Few shell makers willingly provide the pressure of the load.
5. It was easier for clubhouse experts to simply say "use low pressure loads in your vintage double".
6. Desiring lower RECOIL is reasonable with 100 year old wood and lock up. And lower shot weight and lower fps = lower recoil and usually also = lower pressure.
7. With adequate wall thickness (and we now have no excuse for not knowing the wall thickness from breech to muzzle) there is no rationale for advocating "low pressure" loads; we should suggest "loads for which the gun was designed".
8. I shot 2 rounds of low gun recreational skeet at Ben Avery this morning with my 1906 16g Damascus OE. I know the right barrel wall thickness to be borderline. I therefore chose to use 2 1/2" RST 3/4 oz. at 1100 fps loads with a pressure of 4,600 psi, and have a steel and leather hand guard at the thin area. I also know the barrels previously survived 250 2 1/2” 7/8 oz. Polywad Spred-R shells and 100 2 1/2” 7/8 oz. at 1145 fps. (about 8000 psi) loads without dimensional change, so I'm not too worried.

BTW with the winter rains the desert is a riot of yellow and gold

Skeettx said he was looking for lighter 7/8 ounce loads. Fiocchi makes a "trainer" 12 gauge 2-3/4" load that is 7/8 ounce of shot (7-1/2 or 8) at 1200 FPS. According to the distributor in the US they are between 6500 and 7500 psi. I called them twice before they would tell me the pressure range. These are not as cheap as Herters or Estates. I have used them a lot in a 12 ga damascus gun with 2-5/8" chambers and long forcing cones, and other 12 gauges.

Another possibility for 2-1/2" fans is at William Larkin Moore. They have custom loads made and sell them in 7/8 ounce 16 and 20 gauge. I have used them in #7 and #7-1/2". WM Larkin Moore's shop is in Scottsdale, AZ. I think they are about $10 a box.

About shooting in cold weather. My experience in Alaska is that ALL loads, including factory, lose energy and shoot dirtier when temperatures fall much below 40 degrees. I don't shoot when it gets into the single digit temps or lower, but there are clay shooter leagues here that shoot at 12 below zero! Many of these folks handload. I generally avoid shooting loads down below 5000 psi in the depths of winter.

Prior to 1924, the Belgian and British Service (using) maximum load for 12g 2 1/2” and 2 5/8” shells was 1 1/4 oz. / 3 1/4 Dram Eq. (1220 fps). The pressure of that load would have been about 8500 psi with BULK smokeless powder; with DENSE smokeless 9,500 - 10,500 psi.
The standard 2 1/2” shells were usually loaded with 1 1/8 oz. shot and 3 Dr. Eq. of BULK Smokeless with a pressure of 6500 - 7500 psi; DENSE Smokeless was 9000 - 10,000 psi.

A lot of the older reloading manuals will note that the lower pressure formulas they provide are not good cold weather loads. I don't know what the low noise-low recoil factory loads generate for pressure, but I do know that I've heard very "poofy" reports (not just less noise) on days when it's freezing or a little below.