I was saddened to read in today's SSM that Arrieta declared Bankruptcy in November, 2016. I don't think anyone has posted about this here. Sounds like from the article that a reorganization might permit operations to continue in a more limited fashion. There was also a reference to reviving the collective they had years ago. I sure hope that doesn't happen and they can maintain semi-independence.

Owen,
Were they purchased by another manufacturer? I had heard about the reorganization but didn't know when it might occur.
Karl

They built some beautiful guns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5HoKCDwmD8

treblig,
You're absolutely correct. I've been eyeballing a 578 20 ga. round body at Fieldsport for several weeks. Been thinking of getting a spanish gun and I think Arrieta would be a good maker to consider. That's why I was sad to hear of their trouble.
Karl

The article stated that they simply didn't have enough orders to maintain solvency. I didn't realize that they purchased Arrizabalaga in 2012. The article further stated that they hoped to emerge from bankruptcy in May 2017 and begin taking orders again.

Owen,
That's very good news if they can.
Karl

See here:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=126&t=450835

This is not completely true. They have just send a couple of guns to the US that were ordered. They are in a financial mess and trying to reorganize so that they can stay in business. If this happens, which this is their hopes, it will be a much smaller firm. Probably ending up like some of the very small Italian, obscure makers that product only a handful of guns each year.

John Boyd
Quality Arms

Sad to hear. I love my 16 Gauge Model 578 and I have a friend who has a much higher grade 16 Gauge two barrel set. Both were bought used and they were very nice guns for the money spent.

After leaving the lower end market look at who they had to compete against. The lower priced doubles market now belong to the Turks that provide a good solid double for not much money.

I, myself would pay three times more for a Spanish gun then a Turk. But, the lower priced Spanish gun doesn't exist anymore.

They've priced themselves upward and bumped right into the Italian guns. The same Italian guns whose names are plastered all over the shooting sports. Names like Perazzi and Beretta just to name a few and even people who are not involved in the shotgun shooting sports have heard those names.

They had no place to go. I expect more trouble down the road.

But, I hope I'm full of crap on this one because I really like Spanish guns.

Speaking of "low end" Spanish guns, the market is saturated right now, if you check Simpson's inventory. Lot's of pre-DIARM medium weight game guns, mainly boxlocks. Their prices have dropped 30% over the last year or two. Same with Field Grade German guns. Now would be the time to buy any Grandkids their first Starter Double.

Regards
Ken

The Simpson Ltd. is good place to go if one wants HVA Mauser sporter or inexpensive SxS. I see they sold decent East German Merkel Modell 8 or $695. These were not inexpensive shotguns costing about $1300 in early 90s. Few years back someone imported bunch of sporting rifles and SxSs from Europe most likely Sweden or another Scandinavian country. I say Scandinavian because there were many HVA rifles and shotguns plus some German and Spanish stuff. I agree the prices are significantly down for now.

Didn't Arrieta build guns for Orvis?

Yes in 80s, 90s and perhaps later. Beretta, SKB and early on Ruger made some O/Us for them. The Rugers had blackened receivers.

I had always thought Arrieta would be one of the survivors. Which of the Spanish gun builders are still making guns?

pooch,
I'm certain that AYA is for sure. I think that Grulla is out. I agree, I too thought Arrieta would survive. Now I'm going to look deeper into that one I've had my eyes on at Fieldsport.
Karl

Their buyer works out of Sweden. He travels all around Europe collecting guns, and when he has enough for a shipment he sends it over. Since many countries tax each gun, the older or lower condition ones often come over. Many were originally retailed in Sweden. Quite a few come from Spain. A popular rifle is the Remington rolling block that was sold to the Swedish Army, but is finding its way back here via Simpson. They also usually have quite a few Lugers.

Bob took me down to the basement once, literally racks and racks of doubles..

Regards
Ken

Dan Moore, of William Larkin Moore, in the SSM article credited the demise of Arrieta with the economic collapse worldwide. I have a bit different take, for what it is worth. Arrieta, like many Spanish makers who are in financial straits, were makers of S x S guns only. When the favor of S x S guns waned, as it certainly has worldwide, their market began to dry up.

In contrast, look at makers like Beretta, who began building O/U guns many, many years ago, as the market demanded. Many Italian makers have done so, and are doing quite well. Not as well as they'd like, certainly, but well enough that they have survived the economic hard times and are positioned to grow their market share as things improve.

Some would applaud Arrieta for sticking to their game plan of building only fine S x S guns, mostly those enthusiasts of S x S guns who would never own an O/U gun. But, now another builder of S x S guns is likely gone. OTOH, had they diversified their line to include O/U guns, caught their share of that market, they might well still be around to build the fine Arrieta S x Ss so many admire and enjoy. So, ...... was it not a mistake, in hindsight, to continue to build only S x S doubleguns, and "go down swinging"?

I am a row crop farmer, and have been so all my adult life. I have to diversify to meet the demands of the market, in order to remain solvent. Had I decided to grow only cotton all my life I would have been broke and out of business so long ago it would be just a distant memory. Diversification is just good business. To those who espouse the mantra "Do only one thing and do it well" I say, fine .......... until you go broke. Then, you can take hollow pride in the fact that you "did it your way". But, there is absolutely no reason that a company, big or small, cannot do two things as similar as building the two predominant types of doubleguns well, under the same roof. Too many others have proven that it can be done successfully.

SRH

For an example of a SxS maker who diversified and survived successfully in the lower high-end market, consider David McKay Brown. In 1992, he realized that the market for his round action SxS was dwindling. He needed a second offering to remain viable. He borrowed £150,000 and created an O/U prototype. The new model took off and now represents the majority of his production. His vision was rewarded as he remains in business to this day, quite successfully.

Excellent example, Mr. Owen.

SRH

Sorry, but no.

Ugartechea made a full line of over/under shotguns (box lock and side lock) for decades and failed before Arrieta.

Dan Moore is partially correct, in that the banking crisis of 2008 – 2010 was a large stressor on the Spanish shotgun trade. But what killed Arrieta, (Pedro) Arrizabalaga, Ugartechea, Laurona, and Zabala Hermanos, and is killing AyA, Garbi, Grulla, and the rest of the Spanish artisanal shotgun makers is the political actions of the Spanish government (and to a lesser degree the EU and its regulation of firearm cross border movement).

This isn’t a market problem; it’s a result of poor government policies.

I do not discount your contention about the Spanish governmental policies, Kyrie. But, I'm not convinced that the Ugartechea O/Us were what the market wanted, or that the one example you put forth proves my point wrong. Perhaps they did a poor job of marketing them ....... perhaps they were ungainly. For some reason they did not sell. If they had, the results may well have been different.

SRH

Perhaps one of the major reasons is that few of the younger shooters seem to want ANY SxS.

At the shotgun ranges I visit, the shooters under 40 seem to favor O/U's and semi-auto's, all with choke tubes. A very few will ask to see my SXS.

They typically consider a SxS to be "GRANDPA'S GUN."

One factor which is not to be underestimated is that modern agriculture practices has destroyed wild game all over Europe.
Large fields (>200 Acres), the destruction of hedges, fungicide application, pesticide, mechanized harvest etc has played havoc on partridges, hares, etc.
The population collapsed from the 1970s on.
What's good for yield is not good for birds.
In essence, this has annihilated the traditional hunting market.
Best regards,
WC-

The Spanish are most definitely artisans. Give them an H&H or a London spring-opener and they can reproduce them faithfully down to the Self opening mechanism (e.g. The Senior model). It is in the innovation department where they come up short.

As for their inability to produce a viable O/U, it may have come down to economics. The patents were long expired, so they could have easily cribbed a Woodward O/U. They must have tried. I think they could not deliver the equivalent O/U product at a significantly lower cost than the genuine article with the manufacturing methods available to them.

H&H, a venerable SxS manufacturer, was unable to deliver a truly successful O/U design until the 1990's. If they can survive, perhaps the Spanish can repeat the feat.

I think the example of Ugartechea's O/Us is a bad example as they were copies of Merkels.... Not exactly the hottest selling design today. And I don't think they've even been offered for many years (though I may be wrong on that part). Had a more popular design and style been offered, who knows what could have happened.

And the problem does not lie entirely with government policies. There are market/demand issues... If you want proof, take a look at the used SXS market.

Actually I think it is all down to marketing !
Holland & Holland could not actually make a decent O/U thirty years ago so they commissioned David Dryhurst and Richard Tandy of W W Greener to make a number of prototypes , then they got Perazzi to do something similar before they went into production with their modern day O/U which in my opinion at the beginning was frankly a disaster.
We the shooters and our sporting magazines promote the O/U and popularise them , but frankly there is nothing better or finer than a nice SxS but unfortunately we do not promote them.
Put on a serious SxS competition with good prize money and watch the SxS flourish.
Without doubt Arrieta make fabulous products , but without demand and promotion we have no market.
IF sporting writers were to promote the use of SxS and extolled the virtues of SxS's there could be a rush to bring them back.
Sadly most writers are now wet behind the ears young knowalls with no original ideas and only prepared to play to the piper's tune for a free day shooting or an all expenses paid bribe.
All this may sound like vitriolic rhetoric but I can assure you corruption is alive and well in journalism.

The Spanish are past masters at copying someone else's designs. It's telling that they are known for that and not for their own designs. I did not know that the Uggie O/U was a copy of the Merkel, Adam. Small wonder it didn't sell. Didn't someone say "ungainly" in an earlier post?

Maybe the lack of vision and ability to come up with innovative designs of their own is finally catching up with them. No way do I believe it all can be laid at the feet of "poor governmental policies". And the argument that EU policies have partially caused the demise is curious, at best. The EU was formed in 1958, with Italy as one of it's founding members. Spain did not join until the late '80s as I recall. Italy's gun making industry is very healthy, Spain's is dying. How could you blame the EU policies which apply to both?

SRH

Stan,
I don't think the Italian Gun Making Industry is all that healthy.
Many of the smaller makers have liquidated exactly like Arrieta dfor exactly the same reasons.
Indeed Perazzi have been on the brink a number of times.
As I have always said poor marketing is largely to blame .
Kemen & Grulla have both made and still do make quality products , bot who has heard of them and who actually buys them nowadays , and why?

I would disagree with your contention that Italian gunmakers are not doing well, overall as an industry.

Would you share with us the names of the "many" that have closed, salopian? And, evidence that Perazzi has been on the brink of going broke "a number of times", too, please.



Thanks you, SRH

Stan;

I am not "Salopian" however, I will pass on the following that is relevant to your question.

As a firearm engraver, of sorts, I try to keep up with the engraving situation in the world. Just a bit more than a year ago there were discussions among engravers that scores of firearm engravers in Val Trompia area of Italy were without work, where they had been very busy in the past engraving for various gunmaking firms.

I will allow you to decide what relevance this may have to the health of the firearms business there.

Re McKay Brown, it's my understanding they've recently closed shop. Along with Dickson. I haven't seen that verified, so it may not be accurate.

Re Merkel OU's, I'd say they're only "ungainly" if you prefer shallower and wider to deeper and skinnier. There are many companies making OU's that can't match a Merkel for weight, gauge for gauge and barrel length for barrel length. That is, unless they use an alloy receiver. With their slender forends, Merkel OU's handle a bit more like sxs (and lots of used ones out there with double triggers) than do most other OU's. Nice to have those options in the OU world.

You are quite right in this - they handle superbly and despite looking a little heavy - in fact the reverse is true and they are relatively light.

Larry;

I hope that you are highly inaccurate in your comment about David McKay Brown, as it would be terrible if they closed. I am going to run this to "ground" and see what I can learn about Brown's.

Regards;
Bv

Larry;

I have learned that David McKay Brown Company is active and well and the business is still making guns as we speak.

I spoke with David's wife, Alexe, in January as I had a gun in for service and they are quoting 18 months for a new commission.

The combined effect of EU firearms, environmental and agricultural regulations have shrunk the gun trade and are in part responsible for failures such as that of Arrieta.

In their antigun fervour the EU legislators did not notice that one (among many other) effect of their regulation was to deny gun owners even elementary consumer protection.

Sending an unaccompanied gun across EU borders, even for judicially endorsed warranty work, is so hard as to be practically impossible. The situation is symptomatic of regulations in other areas, ie establishing a shooting range, dog tail docking, consumption of game meat, the list is endless.

The end result is a poacher's paradise and a buraucrat's dream.

Don't know who convinced the Spanish that anybody wanted a Merkel OU copy. Weight doesn't cover up ugly. Fiber glass bodies wouldn't have sold any more K-cars or Pacers.

They just don't have the innovation and vision that the Italians do. They're content to copy. That can only last so long.

SRH

Stan,
If you compare a Beretta S series from the 1950s to a Silver Pig, about the only inovation you will clearly see is that far fewer human hands built the pig, and they were less skilled hands, at that. If you try to compare an ASEL from the 1950s, you will find that Beretta doesn't build anything that compares to it, and hasn't for some time. Internally, there hasn't been any revolution in Beretta boxlock O/Us that I am aware of.
The Spanish built copies of A&D boxlocks and Holland pattern sidelocks that ranged from middling to spectacular. I'm going to guess that the average buyer for a type of gun like that isn't looking for a bunch of "innovation" but, wants a sound copy of the same tried and true English versions of either of those guns. If I could afford to place an order at Purdeys or Hollands (I can't) I wouldn't be looking for any innovation. I want it to look pretty much like they did from between the wars.
How many people, at this late date, are actually in the market for either a new Spanish or English pattern boxlock, or sidelock? It is a diminishing number.
I think it a bit unfair to say it is simple lack of innovation that doomed the Spanish gun. There are many factors involved, and I seriously doubt many of their clients from the past expected innovation from the standard pattern copies of the English SXS guns they had produced for so long. Some may have asked for (and, got) choke tubes or steel shot proof, but, there isn't much that can be improved on either design of SXS gun, assuming it is a well built copy.

Best,
Ted

Fewer and fewer users. To add insult to injury the prices for their new guns are same on used prices for very good Italian guns and English guns. It's tough to compete with "English speakers and mafia movies plus spaggetti & meatballs". While I do not many appreciate fine Spanish wine, olives, red oranges, and aged cheeses.

Slowly but surely they're winning. It might take years or even decades, but they'll win.

Lack of orders, more like lack of enthusiasm, more like, 'Why bother."

But I'm not only blaming Europe, look at our creeping in gun laws in more and more States.

Stan,
For your information in 1988 Beretta were a major shareholder in Perazzi that saved them from going broke , plus they have had a number of hiccoughs since 1988 'skin of the teeth ' comes to mind.
Anglo Spanish Imports (ASI) UK was founded by two wealthy farming brothers who wanted a Holland & Holland Royal , but didn't like the price or the delivery / build time , so they took one to Spain to AyA and their new gun was delivered 5 weeks later. Since then the AyA No1 & No2 have been stalwarts of British shooting community.EJ Churchill, William Evans , William Powell old name famous English gunmakers are now having guns made in Spain.

"there isn't much that can be improved on either design of SXS gun, assuming it is a well built copy."

I will mention a few things that could have been introduced to improve the two basic designs, the boxlock and sidelock SXS:

Replaceable hook and bite "shoes" to bring the barrels back on face when they inevitably shake loose. They would also facilitate extra barrel fitting.

Easily replaceable barrel tubes in properly dimensioned monoblocs to avoid the sleeving or rebarreling dilemma.

Stock bolting to facilitate servicing and restocking the boxlock.

Reinventing the ribs for less weight and unseen rust.

Doing away with V springs.

All are innovations that would not change the "character" of the SXS. They would make owning a SXS so much easier, and cheaper. No maker could overcome the inertia of simple and inexpensive copycatting, now they are reaping the results of that inertia. The Arrieta situation is a symptom.

When I said innovation and vision I meant as opposed to copying designs of others. Which of Beretta guns are direct copies of other companies' guns? I do not know of any. As to the 1950s guns being the same design as today, nothing wrong with staying with a design that works great and that lasts. The opposite of that is Ford. Though I run Ford trucks on the farm, it infuriates me how they constantly change things on their trucks instead of sticking with something tried and true.

Lack of innovation and vision isn't the only thing that is causing the demise of the great Spanish unmaking industry, but I believe it was a large part of it. Changing with the times and using technology instead of man hours to build guns was not a bad thing for the industry in general. To those who had rather lay claim to a hand built gun, I can see that it is an anathema. Hand built guns are fine, if that's what you want, but they come at a cost most of the world will never pay. I'd rather see a company change with the times, as many such as Beretta has, than become insolvent because they can't sell their products for what they need to, to make a profit. As long as the Italians turn out O/U guns as good as most of them are, more power to the CNC machines. Take a look in the English gunmakers' shops and you'll see more and more machines replacing action filers, barrel borers, etc. There is really no other sensible choice for them.

SRH

One needs to look at typical modern gun buyer to see the situation. Most modern shooters come from "blue collar" backgrounds far removed from fancy custom grade SxS stuff. When it comes to more expensive guns to them pinnacle of form and function are represented by either O/U or self-loading shotgun. I have joned them by buying my first semi-auto. While most would pick 12ga or 20ga I went for grandpas 16ga. While not as versatile as 12ga it is kind of kool like old cars with glorious sounding horns and chromed bumpers. When I asked Englishman shopping at US gun store about English game guns. Those made are just for the wealthy classes. For me end of what we used to love as old USA ended when Walmart came to every small town. I have now re-institued by New Years resolution not to shop at Walmart.

Although some might consider it heresy, my opinion is that the Spaniards should have added factory choke tubes 15-20 years ago, when the rest of the world did so...

gold40

They did in late 80s in certain models (most game guns had fixed chokes) of Ugartechea made for Parker Hale. I have seen two samples. One 12ga game gun with straight grip w/checkered butt plus choke tubes second was 10ga PG rubber recoil pad choke tubes. Some Zabalas for American Arms? also came with choke tubes.