A recent thread here caught my eye, it was the buyers market one. I had an idea that the market was down but was surprised to hear a story today. A gunshop owner I know was planning to sell a nice sidelock at auction, the well known auction house gave a valuation without even seeing the gun (which I thought was strange) the price given seemed a bit low so the shop owner questioned it, only to be told....
"English guns don't sell anymore"
A bit scary don't you think, up until recently, given that interest rates are at rock bottom over here, the advice was, buy a quality Brit gun for a sound investment.

Doesn't surprise me since fewer hunters are in the field, preferring the clay games where heavier guns are usually seen. Most of my Brit guns are just mid level boxlocks and I haven't seen those prices increase any in the past decade. (However, quality American guns continue to climb with collector demand.) Oh well, Brit shotguns are still the finest upland guns in the world. Never intended them to yield a return on investment anyhow.

Was just discussing with a friend, lot of very nice sidelocks floating around with good names being sold by dealers in the 6K range. Prices drop any more and I might have to actually buy one and elevate myself from the BLNE camp.

Yeah . . . nice used SLE's out there for less than the price of new ones from Spain.

The small bore market seems fairly good for nice guns to me but the 12 market is differently very soft. Good guns are slow to sell and low level ones very hard to sell around here. A dealer friend has stopped taking doubles into his shop for consignment sales and what he offers for them in trade is almost nothing. At his current sales rate he won't need more inventory for a long time. Dropping prices does nothing to stimulate interest. Low grade gun in anything but mint condition just draw no interest. Maybe closer to hunting season it will pickup but I doubt it.

Non model 12 pumps are slow movers unless set up for urban combat. I just bought a Ithaca solid rib Skeet gun in 20 ga for a song. Better than 95% condition with uncut stock. I haven't seen so many bargains in guns I like since 2008. Now hand guns, black guns and big name collectible guns like Browning, Winchester and Parkers are selling well around here. Cash is king and with it you can improve your collection of shooters very nicely right now.

On the other hand several dealers told me everything with wood and steel vs plastic was selling pretty darn well at Tulsa last weekend.

It hasn't stopped me building my collection but I have to laugh whenever I see guns described as investments.
I strongly suspect that the money I've spent would yield measurably greater returns on more traditional investments like stocks and bonds.
But I can't take my 401K out for a bit of rough shooting.

Jeremy

Guns as "Investments"?

Hypothetical situation:
You bought a decent double gun several years ago for $2000 and sell it for $3000. Do you report the $1000 gain to the IRS as income?

You bought some stock several years ago for $2000 and sell it for $3000. Guess who will be knocking on your door wanting their share of the profit!
Jim

I do. You've got a week to do the right thing.

I guess now (or in the near future) may be the time to buy that SLE you've always hankered for. There is a flip side to every coin. Perhaps it's just a lull, good to hear they were selling well in Tulsa though.
Good point about the tax man too, maybe that was the thinking behind the guns as an investment idea.

After deducting associated proportional cost of storage, cleaning materials, upkeep etc it becomes a tax deductible loss doesn't it?

Jeremy

Especially if you wind up selling it for a loss!
Karl

I can attest to the fact that the British small bore market is healthy. I was looking for a respectable Brit 16 bore sidelock with long barrels. When one hit my dealer's inventory last month, a bidding war broke out for a 110 year old gun. I had to spend more than I wanted to secure it.

It certainly is a quiet time here in the UK.
I was recently offered a very nice Birmingham made SxS 12g that was being Part Exed for a new O/U . The Dealer didn't want to take it for any price , I was offered it for £40 ! But sadly I too didn't want it. SxS's are just not selling. I have numerous guns, many quality makes and I have had to learn that most are only worth about 2/3rds what I paid for them.
I have one gun that was valued at £52,000 in 1988.
Recently I was offered £2,000 for it by a rogue dealer who didn't know its history or model , it looks similar to a current gun that retails at £5,600.

Perhaps the market is self correcting and taking us back to the golden age of shotgunning. Back then a mid ranking officer made about 500 pounds annually and a "best" cost 100 pounds. The same rank officer now makes 55000 pounds and the "best" costs almost twice that, despite the introduction of cost cutting CNC machines. Something ain't right!

Military pay is documented and lots of military ranks appear in the ledger books of top makers, thus giving us an indication of the purchasing power of a large percentage of buyers during the golden age of shotgunning.

Probably worth remembering, re British military officers, that they were often the second (or further down the line) sons of wealthy families. So while they did not inherit, it's probably not wise to assume that their military pay was their only source of income.

I think that one of the problems, certainly in the U.K., is that youngsters are not taking up shooting as they once were. I would have thought I was the bee's knees if I had owned an English boxlock non-ejector when starting out. In fact I was about 21 before I could afford one such gun. Now they can be bought for very little. Most youngsters seem to just want to play with technology instead of getting out into the fresh air; and they wonder about childhood obesity! Any that do want to take up shooting want an over/under for clays and it usually carries the name of some Italian maker. It's the same with fishing. Can't get them outdoors any more. Sad times. Lagopus.....

I look at the equation and think junior officers are obviously underpaid

In all seriousness though I would not be at all surprised if the relative pay of officers has declined relative to the pay of gun trade workers.

Also as someone else pointed out it wasn't until WWII and later that the British officer class ceased to be drawn from the gentry who might have alternative income.

Jeremy

Take a look at this dealer in England. Elderkin.

What must have been a collection of English bests hit the market about 6 weeks ago on this site. There were about 30 listings in all, some singles, some pairs. All guns were visible at one time, and as they sold the pictures were removed. Most appeared to sell within 2 weeks of hitting the market. Now only 5 listings are active. Now, I do not know what the actual selling prices were, but these guns have moved fairly quickly.

L.Brown notes: "it's probably not wise to assume that their military pay was their only source of income."

This seems to reinforce the point that the cost of a "best" in the heyday of english gunmaking was a small fraction of a buyer's annual income.

Considering the great numbers of mid level officers (captains, majors, naval commanders etc)in the ledgers it is unlikely that ALL of them were partly financed by discretionary income sources. Also there are plenty of plain "misters" in the ledger books and they could afford a "best".

Current pricing of "best is even more weird . Per kilogram of weight it is in multiples of a Rolls Royce. No way a 1880 design can rival the costs of development or the overheads etc of a hand built car. Arguably there is more skilled handwork in an exotic car than in a "best" shotgun and infinitely higher development costs.

Our passion often displaces objective thinking, but that is no reason for the makers to overdo it with pricing.

Same as anything. It will sell at the right price.
The right price for some guns is only about 50 cents & that is why they linger so long. Their problems rectified overcome their terminal value. In other words, an insurance write off.
Some others are priced at the very top of the market, ever.
Good guns, yes, but at that price you could buy five or six very nice guns from elsewhere
Recently I saw two guns come up for sale that interested me & in both cases they had sold on the same day they were advertised.
There are plenty of discerning buyers out there.

Some lingerers are a Purdey light game 2/12 chambers @ $52,000.
A Holland & Holland @ $98,000.
A Greener blue rock @ $6,500
An old junky revived from the dead Purdy hammer gun with sleeved barrels @ $10,000.
O.M