I have dabbled in collectable guns for about 10 years and have even acquired some worthwhile unmolested doubles (Winchester, Ithaca, Iver Johnson and Baker) at what seemed to be market prices.

However, the market for guns by Parker and A.H. Fox is to me an impenetrable morass. How does a know nothing blind pig not get taken when foraging for an unmolested Parker or A.H. Fox

Haven't tried Fox but did make an effort on Parkers. Bought a couple molested ones but not what I wanted. Finally found a Parker collector who took pity on me and sent me to a collector who was disposing of part of his assets. Found the 20ga VHE I wanted at a reasonable price. However both Parker and Fox are just too well known names and their collector value is far above their mechanical value in the lower grades. There are a lot of better quality guns for the price of a Parker VHE or DHE. Besides I am a shooter not a collector. My 20ga has seen a lot of miles in the desert hunting quail;a trip to South Dakota for pheasant, Idaho for Huns and a few sporting clays venues too. Of course dove frequently as well. So I suggest you figure out how to meet collectors of such guns and develop a relationship or two. Those selling their Parkers are more like the adoption agency for kids in my experience.

A "blind pig" has no such assurances. Even experienced collectors can get taken if they aren't careful. Especially when it comes to higher value graded guns, some of the restorations can absolutely approach or equal original finishes. But work like that doesn't come cheap either, so is less likely in lesser value guns. And there are guns that have been sold as restorations by the better restoration smiths such as Dewey Vicknair or Doug Turnbull that later get passed off as closet queen originals. You simply have to learn to spot the subtle and not so subtle signs of restorations or refreshing. I certainly have been burned by excessive exuberance and rushing into a purchase without doing all of my homework. It is part of the game, and part of the challenge of gun collecting.

Parkers and Foxes are obviously more tempting for unscrupulous sellers to restore or refresh in order to maximize their profits because of the greater value and demand for them. Refreshing is more common than restoration because a lot of that is done by amateurs and hobbyists. Just look at the number of photos of re-blued barrels you see on this one website in a year. Does anyone think for a moment that some of them aren't getting back into circulation? Look at the long discussions there have been here simply recounting how to verify if barrels have been cut, or had chokes honed, or chambers altered. How about the many discussions of what type of case colors are proper for this gun or that? All of those little details go into defining "unmolested" original collector condition. But if you can detect "unmolested" condition in the other brands you mentioned, there is no difference with a Parker or Fox. A good place to start with the Parkers is to get a copy of the Parker Shotgun Identification and Serialization book so you can at least verify original configuration.

Other than that, there is only verifiable provenance such as absolutely knowing that a very nice or pristine specimen was in the same family, lightly used, and well cared for, from the time it was brand new. As time passes, that gets harder and harder too. Just look at some of the dishonesty you see even when there is no money involved.

We've all been burned a time or two in 'gun collecting'. I believe there is no substitute for experience, examining the more guns the better (hundreds to thousands being best). Even then, it's likely best to get expert opinion before jumping in if a high dollar piece. I recently purchased a Westley Richards droplock from the '30's in original condition in 16 bore. It helped knowing I was dealing with an honest dealer, but even with that I had a couple guys here take a look...Joe Wood and Amarillo Mike, 2 men who know guns. I ended up paying a pretty penny for this gun, but I'm relatively sure of its originality and am ultimately happy with the deal. Good luck in your quest and don't forget, the hunt for a fine piece is much of the fun.

Learn the subtle differences in case color between the brands. For example, IMO there is no one alive that reproduces the "oil on water" colors of original A H Fox guns. The only way to learn what that looks like is looking at some in person, holding them in your hands and studying the subtleties in natural light. There is a distinctive color and finish to an original Fox barrel blue, as well. I believe L C Smiths can be restored to much nearer exact original case colors than can a Fox. I cannot say for certain about Parkers, as I have purposely stayed away from them for all these years. The higher the market for a particular brand, the more likely you are to run into fakes, or restored guns. And, they are badly overpriced IMO, much more so than Foxes.

If you really want an unmolested Parker I would keep asking for information on guns for sale by old collectors, or that might be for sale in the future. Hang around people that have been collecting that particular brand for a long time. Ask questions. Sometimes you just have to wait. I know of a high condition, graded 32" Parker near me that is original, bought from old man Odum in S. GA many years ago. I was allowed to shoot it a couple years ago. I have finally gotten a promise from the owner that if he ever sells it he will give me first shot. Sometimes that's as good as you can do. If and when the time comes, I may or may not buy ............ all according to the price.

Whatever you do, don't get in too big a hurry. The only thing worse than not finding what you want is buying it and then finding out it isn't what you thought.

Good hunting, SRH

I agree with Stan for the most part in terms of not rushing into anything; however, there are times when one must act expeditiously, else the jewel will be gone.

I recall reading a while back that Turnbull would occasionally receive guns for restoration that the owner thought were in original condition. A records check would show that in fact, Turnbull had restored them in the past. I suspect that the same thing happens with Del Grego.

This begs two questions. One, is it possible to inquire to both firms as to if the gun was restored in the past? And two, if a credible restoration was done, certainly possible by others than just those two firms, why should it dramatically alter the gun's value?

A hundred years can obviously age a gun, especially barrel finish and case coloring, as well as the condition of the wood finish. In guns with no significant historical provenance, a credible restoration should improve value, rather than detract from it. How many rusty weapons or pieces of armor have you seen in museums? Sure, there are plenty, but also many that were restored, as long as the piece was in good enough condition to warrant restoration.

Once again, it's the Original vs Restored condition "Kettle of Worms"....

Regards
Ken

I've on occasion found sellers at a show who were offering highly molested Parkers I was attracted to, struck up conversation, and then asked about what they hadn't brought to the show. Nobody can own just one Parker!
Sometimes it took years, but eventually I've come to see and own a few of the better specimens, and know some really great guys.

If you are not into small bores or higher grades there are still good buys out there. Clean 12 gauges in grades no higher than DH are great guns. And their values hold together. Best of all, there are parts available and great workmen who know every minute detail about them, such as our own Brian Dudley. There is just something special about using one of our great American guns, be it Fox, Smith, Ithaca, or Old Reliable.

there is no substitute for experience...however, good pictures can be educational...many can be found via a google search for parker shotguns...and then there are books, such as those by ed muderlak and the parker story, by cote, etc...

Joe Wood;
You left out the best of the Lot, LEFEVER.

It helps to attend double gun event like the Southern Side by Side and the Northeast shoot. There are hundreds of Parkers displayed at these shoots. The big auction houses are also disposing of Parker collections at a great rate. It would help us to know where you live and what configuration of Parker you are looking for.

Whisper: "you are absolutely right but I don't want the word to get out any sooner than possible. I 'need' another Lefever!"

Too late. Even garden variety Twist barreled H grades with excessive drop and no case colors are selling for nearly double what you could snag them for 10 years ago. And this in spite of the supposed drop in demand for double shotguns. This one also had a profit making $50.00 shipping charge on top of the transfer fees the buyer will pay.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/642188375

Glad I stocked up when they were cheap! I was buying higher grade 20's and 16's in equal or better condition for this price before the word got out. The good old days have ended.

Oh crap... now I'm going to get attacked for a thread diversion. Must get back on topic... one of the guns I got burned (or lightly singed) on was a 16 gauge GE Lefever that was priced low enough that I didn't think to run home to grab my Stan Baker bore gauge. It looked unmolested and all original, but the bores turned out to be about .008" over nominal .662" 16 ga. bore size. It was still a good deal and was still very sound and shootable. But had I been armed with the information that it was apparently honed about .004", I might have negotiated an even better price. It's a sweet little bird gun regardless. Perfect mirror bores in 100+ year old shotguns should always be viewed with some caution. Lesson learned, but hardly the last lesson.

Selby Lowndes

Stan I agree Fox case colors are like fine water colors but my favorite are the colors found in Remington 1894's. I was looking at a EE last week which had great engraving and great color. It did have the common stock split which does not bother me at all because the repair is highly predictable and seems to last a lifetime. I liked it so much I am thinking about going back with a few grand in my pocket to see if we can come to a better price and bring it home with me.

Had it been a straight grip I would have been forced to buy it on the first visit. But my rule of thumb now is to buy no guns much over two grand at first examination. Saves a lot of impulse buying. I might miss a few guns that sell before I get back to them but I just can't buy them all it seems. Such a sad state of affairs.

Keith, I have a number of Lefevers in 12, 16, and 20 gauge and all have original bores as far as I can tell and all are overbored.

Ky Jon, I have an almost firm policy to walk away for awhile from a gun I like and let the emotions cool off. Though I've lost a few it has also saved me from a number of bad deals. If on the second or third pass the urge is still there I'll sucker.

Lets get back to the original poster's inquiry, unmolested Parkers and Foxes. This isn't a hard question. We all know where they are. By the way, today, at 71 years old, I sold my Harley, so Parkers should be a piece of cake.

Ken, just have a look at collector cars. While there is the glimmer of the beginnings of an "unrestored" market, the big money is for cars that have been taken down and put back together, bolt by bolt. And the money those guys spend make gun collectors looking like pikers.

I doubt any gun that was restored by Delgrego has been mistaken as original by anyone.

The subject of this thread is something that does concern a good amount of people. All the time i get people contacting me asking my thoughts on Parkers they are considering purchase of. Some are pretty pesty, but it is what it is. They are very concerned about being burned.
I never comment on the price of a gun, i only advise on my thoughts on condition and what i see that is right or not right in a gun. The last time someone went ahead and still bought a gun that i raised a lot of red flags on, the gun ended up turning into a nightmare of a money pit for the buyer.

Very interesting, Brian. It upholds what I said earlier, that IMO the more a brand is overpriced the more fakes and misrepresented restorations there will be with that brand.

SRH

Canvasback and Stan,

I'm in agreement with your points. Restoration of both cars and guns should be viewed the same. Due to age and use, there are relatively few in pristine, original condition. Bringing an old car back to original type condition via restoration is admired and valued. The same thing should be true with doubles, as long as the work is credible. That's one area that the Europeans are more sensible, understanding that there is nothing wrong with periodic work to bring a gun back to high condition, thus allowing it to be used and enjoyed by future generations for many years to come.

Regards
Ken

I agree, Ken, on the comparison of guns to cars. To me, re-casehardening a gun with resulting wrong colors is like painting a '69 Camaro SS with the wrong kind of paint and then clear coating it.

SRH

That's one touchy subject. It appears there is one company out there doing a lot of it. They do nice work, but in many cases they are not historically correct.

What, no flames on the hood?

Regards
Ken

Stan to me wrong colors is like putting a Ford color on a Chevy. It fools no one but the fools. Those in the know will spot the "mistake" in a second. I see too much case coloring jobs which do not come close to being like the original colors. Shiny and bright are not the words I want to use to describe new case colors because they always look too gaudy. I like subtle colors with a lot of the water color blues in the background. The ones with yellow grape clusters you see on too many Smith recase jobs is just too bad. Just not right at all.

I'm with Ken on sensible restoration.

It would help if people would stop using terms like 'unmolested' and 'tampered with'.

These terms are rather disrespectful of what others choose to do with their personal property.

I support the quest to find an original condition gun if that's what someone wants, but don't be critical of my nickel plated A1 Special with the porting and GraCoil stock.

To the OP - if you want one find a reputable seller and pay the price. TabA/SlotB Or not. You decide.

It is really amusing to me when folks get the panty twist syndrome going on restored or modified guns. I mean, there are thousands of them out there. Who GAF what some meathead does to his special gun? Don't buy it - pretty easy, eh?

And is that electroless nickel? That's really the best, innit?


And I like flames


and white-line pads

I like "Tarted Up" women. The more I drink, the better they get.

It's tough to find women in original, 20 year old condition. Well, except for display models.

I might add that it really depends on your definition of unmolested. If it is unused, good luck. I consider a tight, operating double with : uncut barrels and stock, all matching numbers, no dents in barrels and a shiney bores, to be unmolested even if it has 100 yrs of use showing. I even prefer the charactor of the used appearance.

Parkers and Fox guns are high priced no matter the condition.

John