I was wondering how the first trap shooters with their sxs guns actually shot them. Did they select one barrel and continue to use it or did they alternate on every shot? I suppose it would largely depend on the chokes. But what if the gun had both chokes the same?
Are you asking about live bird shooters or clay target shooters?
Two vastly different games back then and two shells could be fired at a target if necessary. With live bird shooting it was customary and good insurance to shoot both barrels at the bird thus guaranteeing the bird would fall dead.
Can't speak to the past, but, my trap gun that I shoot when I'm involved in a league isn't a SXS.
I shoot those for fun, not for score. I wish it was different.
Best,
Ted
I suspect they would use one barrel like most O/U shooters do today. If you had two different chokes you would not use the tighter one if the more open one was working for you.
I shoot a big 'ole Ithaca NID trap model choked full and mod. I shoot the most suitable choke - mod at 16 yd to full at 27 yd. Works as good as any other gun I've ever shot.
DDA
I never shot competitively, but I switched barrels with each shot. I remember being surprised that full or modified, it made no difference. I don't know what the old timers did, but some of their guns were choke full in both barrels. They might as well used them both.
Many SxS guns were choked with very little difference right to left barrel. Even so I think having two chokes to chose from is a advantage as you move back from the 16 yard line.
Top grade trap guns were mostly choked to order by the shooter so it depended on his preference
Boats
I just picked up a Simson 12ga, 29 1/2". F/F. I seldom shoot trap, but I shot a round with that gun a few weeks ago. Shooting with guys with funny high ribs and that sort of thing. I was high gun for the round with a 24. Smoked everything I hit. Figured I'd better not push my luck. Someone might have asked me to shoot in a trap league!
I'll bet you, knowing how tedious serious trap shooters are, that the top shooters of the day used only one barrel. Not only did that give them the exact same POI every shot, but the same hand position on the grip and the same familiar feel on the trigger.
Consistency is the name of the game in competitive shooting, of any "race, creed or color". Thus, the reason most serious competitive shooters of double guns use a single trigger. It's not that a double trigger slows you down on quick second shots ........ it doesn't. Rather, it's the familiarity of doing the exact same thing every shot that most want.
SRH
Never really thought about it....mount pull bang
I think we have to take into account the big disconnect between the way trap was shot a hundred years ago and the way it is today.
Yesterday's ammo was inferior - softer shot, no shot wrappers, and I suspect the payload was slower. To add some parity, ounce and a quarter loads were legal. Targets were faster, lower, wider, and not as stable in flight. All of this would have favored a full-choked barrel(s).
Judging from the breech faces of the three SxS trapguns I own, it looks as if both barrels were used more or less equally, which I suspect was not because of all the double targets that were shot, but rather a deliberate act on the part of the shooter in order to distribute the work.
Back to the chokes. Of the pre-war double trap guns I have seen, only one had something other than F&F or M&F, and that was 0.013" and 0.027", making it an obvious dedicated doubles gun for a fast shooter. However, I don't think those chokes would have been feasible back in the day before shot collars, and my suspicion is that the barrels were opened long after the gun was made.
Do doubles work at the traps? Hall of Famers John Sternberger and Hiram Bradley were using M21s through the sixties and into the early seventies. Maybe they didn't know any better.
The standard turn-of-the-century inanimate target load was 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/4 Dr. Eq. (1220 fps) but many of the "Top Guns" used 3 1/2 to 3 3/4 Dr. Eq. for Live Birds. 1 1/8 oz. 3 Dr. Eq. became increasingly popular for Targets after 1900 however.
GAH Live Bird competitions were handicapped back to 31 yds; at the 1899 (won by Tom Marshall) 6 shooters were at 31 (including J.A.R. Elliott with a Winchester Repeating Shotgun) and 11 at 31 yds (including E.D. Fulford winner in 1898 with a Remington Hammerless)
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1899/VOL_33_NO_05/SL3305011.pdf1901 GAH at Live Birds shooters were handicapped from 25 to 33 yards: W.R. Crosby, J.A.R. Elliott and Fred Gilbert shot from 32 yards. Thomas A. Marshall & Jack Fanning at 31 yds. E.D. Fulford & Rolla Heikes at 30yds. Charley “Sparrow” Young at 29 yds.
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1901/VOL_37_NO_04/SL3704018.pdf The first GAH at Targets in 1900 shooters were handicapped 14-25 yds.
http://library.la84.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1900/VOL_35_NO_14/SL3514012.pdf Most of the doubles were ordered full and a little fuller, and single barrel repeaters full; "Choke Bore" or as a pattern %.
Courtesy of Kenny Ray Estes
The old-time shooters shot targets from 50-60+ yards distance and any target within a 130 degree area was legal. (45 degrees + 20 degrees each side of the center stake)
At some point the rules were amended to throw a softer target, ie: the legal target area diminished to 22 degrees + 25 degrees outside of the extreme angle) or a total area of 94 degrees for legal targets.
(Since 1997) targets are illegal if they are outside of a total area of just 54 degrees; (17 degrees + 10 degrees outside); or 27 degrees each side of the center stake.
I suppose the next obvious question is how are today's shooters doing it at the classic Sxs shoots?
I suppose the next obvious question is how are today's shooters doing it at the classic Sxs shoots?
Many bring an old SBT.
I shoot an Ithaca double w/ 3" drop. FxF
So, shoot what you have.
Remember, for MANY people (and I fully understand this cannot be comprehended or accepted as a natural act by some) attending and shooting at a vintage firearm shoot is about playing with old toys.
NOT about taking home a trophy.
I liken it to Vintage car racing. You kinda want to win, but you aren't willing to wreck or blow up the Maserati Birdcage.
OK, so I'm a closet snob. Though I have never shot a registered target and really get bored with trap, on occasion I find myself on the line among all those modern zip guns. And all I have is my 120 year old Parker DH with 32" damascus barrels shooting my favorite load of 7/8 oz of #8 at 16 yards. I have to restrain my grin as we walk off the field and I've beaten half or more of the line. For the life of me I cannot see the perceived advantages these new fangled zip guns have other than worry the shooter to death over that last one degree twist in the stock or rib height. To me it just takes the spontaneity out of the sport and makes robots of normally interesting people. There is one feller I see ever so often at our gun club who marches right up to the line with his bird gun and from a low gun position turns in a very respectable performance. Though he is half my age my hat is off to him. There I see real skill to admire.
Our flyer club does not allow any guns other then break open guns. Side by sides compete "side by side" with Perazzis and Krieghoffs as well as Fabbris and side lock Berettas. The side by sides win more than a fair share of the money. Don't know why, just know that's the way it is.
I've shot Remington SxS's for years and always thought their 1894 F Grade trap guns were nothing more than a B Grade with a straight stock. Well, I'm not the brightest light bulb in the package. After about 10 years I was looking at one of my F Grades and noticed the solid rib was higher at the breech than the muzzle[ and it was swamped, not flat ]. All my F Grades were like that. Now I see it wasn't just an advertising ploy to sell more guns, but they really did do a little something to make them trap guns. Now I fell like a real trap shooter - my scores should improve.
To me it just takes the spontaneity out of the sport and makes robots of normally interesting people.
Are we still speaking of trap shooters???? LOL!!!!!
Not bad
Mark Arie was the first shooter to run 100 straight doubles from scratch when he broke the first 163 in a 200-bird race at the Great Western Handicap at the Denver Municipal TC on July 18, 1926.
Re: vintage SBTs with those old soft pellet no shot cup shells
In 1917, Fred Gilbert took delivery of a Parker SBT SN 180116. He continued to compete thereafter, but at a gradually slower pace, troubled by high blood pressure and arthritis. In 1919 at age 54 he made a straight run of 589.
I think one thing missing here is trap shooting stated with live pigeons. Two shots were permitted. When all the pigeons in the country were killed off, substitute targets were used and evolved into the clay targets we now have. I believe when the rare live pigeon shoots are held two shots are not only allowed but are required regardless of the first shot result. Probably a safety requirement to be sure the gun is empty.
I think the original poster was questioning if a shooter of that day used both barrels in part to keep just one from heating up. Most of the top shots seem to have beaver tail or large splinter fore ends and those who don't can often clearly be seen to be wearing a leather glove on the hand which comes into contact with the metal of the barrels.
If those shooters were anything like those of today you might find some very interesting habits. One major Skeet shooter loads AA shells so the AA on the shell is horizontal. Another has lucky shoes. A trap shooter I know always goes out with 28 shells in his bag. No more, no less. Or the Sporting clay champion who I watched blink nine times on every station to "clear his eyes". Methodical and obsessive are terms which comes to mind when I think of most top shooters. Doing it exactly the same way over and over again.
At most SxS shoots, unless there's a provision for guns other than sxs, you wouldn't be able to use a SBT, even a vintage one.
For the most part, I use trap only to warm up for the Great Northern (mid-June), which has a simulated pigeon ring. Something close to a trap gun, or choked like one, works best.
Re barrels heating up--I always wear a thin leather glove on my left (leading) hand anyhow. And the barrels will warm up enough, especially on a hot summer day, that you may want something that gives your hand more protection--especially if you have a gun with a splinter FE. Like my trap/pigeon ring gun. But I've found they don't get all that hot unless maybe you're shooting a short squad, like 3 guys. Then they will. A full squad, moving after every 5 targets . . . they'll get warm, but I don't need anything more than my thin leather glove.
Back when we used to shoot a flurry event as part of the UP/Great Northern--70-some targets in 2 1/2 minutes, and you could use someone to load for you--then you definitely needed a padded glove if you were using just one gun.
I would think most shooters would use their more open barrel at the 16-yard events and the tighter barrel at handicap events.
Nothing bothers me more then over-under skeet shooters, with skeet chokes in both barrels, that wear out one lock mechanism by loading one shell at a time for singles at stations one through seven!! Lost bird, delay of the squad!!
I would think most shooters would use their more open barrel at the 16-yard events and the tighter barrel at handicap events.
Nothing bothers me more then over-under skeet shooters, with skeet chokes in both barrels, that wear out one lock mechanism by loading one shell at a time for singles at stations one through seven!! Lost bird, delay of the squad!!
Might as well get used to it....that's what is being taught in youth shooting.
I only ask the question because I took out my Remington F fully restored to shoot some trap the other day and had forgotten the choke measurements and wondered which barrel I should be using. It got me wondering if there was a 'proper' way to use it. It didn't seem to make a difference at 16 yds using 3 drams FF black powder and 1 1/8oz #8.
Based on grip alone, with the straight stock of the F Grade is there an advantage to using the rear or the front trigger first when shooting doubles?
Bit of thread drift perhaps, but shooting trap successfully or flyers for that matter has to do with total concentration on the BIRD. I've a friend who shoots bunker trap low gun, willing and able to use both bbl.'s, but never remotely bringing the gun into play until the target has been loosed and is visible, uses a high grade Franchi SxS for the most part. Its his 'practice' for grouse hunting in the UP, shared w/his dog alone. He breaks scores in the low 20's w/great frequency & never discusses bags, but sometimes makes a passing remark on the quality of the season past. I doubt he puts but a couple in the bag per day or ever had any interest in doing much more that that, but he eats both when fortunate in that way, w/an old friend he stays with up there during season.. and its enough.
Don't let Joe fool ya either, he can bring those bbl.'s on guns stocked w/so much drop you'd think they were made for cranes to to shoot, rather than peoples, to the target w/alacrity & drop birds where a dog, if it was paying attention, can find it w//o much effort, stone dead or winged hard enough that an old dog can walk toit.
If you can really tell the dif. when shooting a SxS vs. an O/U or even a semi-auto, I'd guess you are <100% focused where you need to be. Joe once told me that having a gun w/o hammers is like having a dog w/o ears. I dunno, all my dogs have had 'em and paid reasonable attention. "Whoa! Whoa, you $%&#@!, Whoa!" Mine generally have, but I've seen others where that phrase is about all they ever heard, best I could tell.. and it didn't carry much weight whether their owner was using a quality SxS or not, seeing as how they seldom got to shoot anyway.
Drew,
Do any of those early trap shooters go into any more detail on how they used their guns when shooting clay targets?
Then, as now, no shortage of opinions...some contradictory
Lots here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/17__6nT2u4mP22we08yCBThQ_a-VtmOueW5CisK3c2To/previewAlready reviewed looking for specific advice regarding which barrel if shooting once (U.S. style) at inanimate targets and couldn't find anything. I do recall John Olin liked the left barrel first on skeet doubles as the recoil was into the face.
BTW: this thread has some neat vintage videos of live action target and pigeon shooting. Despite the vintage mount mythology, most of shooters look like they could have been at the 2016 Southern
http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/vintage-live-action-trap-and-live-bird-shooting.514889/ It is clearly shown that recoil from the first shot lifts the heads of several shooters well off of the stock
E.D. Fulford, winner of the 1898 GAH at Live Birds, and obvious Remington rep
A gun with two sets of barrels, both the same length and weight, is to be recommended. Have trap set bored to shoot 70 per cent, of load in a 30-inch circle, at 40 yards. Have field set with right barrel cylinder and left barrel modified choke.
Get a gun with drop and cast-off that fits you, and one that you can hit the objects with. The average man needs about 2 3/4 inches drop at butt, 1 1/2 inches drop at comb, 14 1/4 inches long, full pistol grip, weight 7 1/2 to 8 pounds. The Remington Arms Company without doubt or question produce the best and strongest gun for the money made in the world to-day.
I consider the U.M.C. shell the best. I know nothing about any powder but “Schultze” and believe it the best nitro powder made. For a target load use 2 3/4 to 3 drams, wadded with a split salmon No. 11 two pink-edge. No. 11 and 1 1/4 ounces No. 7 chilled shot, in 2 3/4 inch Trap or Smokeless case. For live birds use 45 to 50 grains (3 1/4 to 3 1/2 Dram Eq.) wadded with one split salmon No. 11. two pink-edge. No. 11, 1 1/4 ounces No. 7 and 1 3/16 ounces No. 6 chilled shot, in 2 3/4 inch case. You can make no mistake in using the above loads for trap shooting of the present clay.
Maybe you gotta wear your pants like that Tamid.
O.M
Maybe you gotta wear your pants like that Tamid.
O.M
???
I would think most shooters would use their more open barrel at the 16-yard events and the tighter barrel at handicap events.
Nothing bothers me more then over-under skeet shooters, with skeet chokes in both barrels, that wear out one lock mechanism by loading one shell at a time for singles at stations one through seven!! Lost bird, delay of the squad!!
That one made me grin; you might could suggest they at least consider loading the other bbl. first, if they have a selector, on alternating boxes. Skeet, for me anymore is about shooting w/friends. Some of mine are intense and insanely good at it as well. Me(?), nacho much, not that I don't try to hit 'em all, I do. It simply doesn't work all the time and its not related to which bbl., even when choked the same, is utilized. Following that same thot pattern one might worry about the same thing happening on a two-triggered double on the rt. hand lock, regardless of its chokes. Perhaps it does, if used for skeet often enough. Never really thot about it before. Now I have one more thing to use as a distraction rather than looking at the target & just shooting it as I did before I knew better.
Joke Tamid.
If you watched the vintage live bird & trap video you will see the 3/4 pants on them.
I don't think the pants help the shooting but they always make me smile.
O.M
I only ask the question because I took out my Remington F fully restored to shoot some trap the other day and had forgotten the choke measurements and wondered which barrel I should be using. It got me wondering if there was a 'proper' way to use it. It didn't seem to make a difference at 16 yds using 3 drams FF black powder and 1 1/8oz #8.
Based on grip alone, with the straight stock of the F Grade is there an advantage to using the rear or the front trigger first when shooting doubles?
You are shooting a Remington double trap with black powder?
Moses,
I have't watched that video yet. Oh yes the jodhpurs. I haven't worn pair of those since I was a teenager trying to emulate the european telemark skiers.
eeb,
Yes I use Pyrodex Select FFg in all my vintage guns. But you seem surprised. Isn't that what was originally used?
Bulk Smokeless powder was in widespread use after about 1895 in the U.S.; Dense Smokeless shortly thereafter.
Pressures of turn-of-the-century loads are here
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1F2sQuPm05IE4VWYYnCkvuXmYEzQoWd_SQgaAfUOZEFU/preview The Remington Model of 1894 Hammerless Grade “F.E.” Trap Gun was introduced in 1906 with decarbonized steel barrels; similar to Marlin “Special Rolled Steel” and Winchester “Rolled Steel”. Certainly no Live Bird or Inanimate Target competitor was using black powder in 1906.
One more interesting factoid about those early trap shooters: Some of them shot 2 3/4" shells in short-chambered guns. (Would have been 2 5/8" if 12ga.) They found that they got better patterns. The theory was that those old paper cases, opening slightly into the forcing cone, gave the shot a bit of additional protection on its initial contact with the barrels.
On SxS, recoil from the right barrel pulls the gun away from your face. The left barrel pushes the stock into your face, reducing in hiver felt recoil. That's why most guns which have different chokes have the right barrel more open.
Drew
I do believe black powder shells were used for trap in the most early days of the sport and my statement was meant to be generic. Not specific to the Remington FE. I have never loaded shells with smokeless powder for my vintage guns Standard is 3 drams and 1 1/8 oz. the only change is the pellet size depending on what I am shooting and bismuth for waterfowl
Yes, that's all they had, in great and cleverly named variety, and they used some boomer loads
https://books.google.com/books?id=AEM9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PR9&lpg#v=onepage&q&f=false Outing: Sport, Adventure, Travel, Fiction, 1889
Al Bandle, of Cincinnati, on Christmas Day defeated the famous shot, Captain A. H. Bogardus, by killing 100 live birds straight to the Captain's equally remarkable record of 95.
Bogardus shot a 12-gauge L.C. Smith gun, hammerless, 7 lbs. 12 oz. weight and shot
4 drams American Wood powder in his first barrel, 1 1/4 oz. No. 8 shot in first and 1 1/4 oz. No. 7 in second, backed up with 3 1/4 drams Laflin and Rand Orange Lightning powder.
Bandle shot the same make of gun, 10 gauge, and used, first barrel,
4 drams Wood powder, second, 4 drams Laflin and Rand “F.F.F. extra” powder, No. 7 shot.
DuPont purchased Laflin & Rand in 1902. L&R “Orange Extra” Black Powder was still offered in the 1927 Hercules Sporting Powders booklet.
Hmmm, thanks Doc Drew. So, Bogardus had a preferred first barrel. Noted, that it's live bird and he likely discharged both barrels, but I think Stan was spot on way back in the beginning.
I'd think the best didn't randomly switch barrels to compensate for wear or equipment compromises. I think they shot cutting edge of the day, and practiced and competed for consistency. Though it can be serious today, the stakes seemed much higher at the time when the events and accomplishments were covered by national and local media.
As early as 1891, Union Metallic Cartridge Co. was offering shot gun shells loaded with smokeless powders. Winchester provided smokeless powder shotgun shells to "selected shooters" in 1893 and to the general public in 1894. From the first Grand American Handicap at live birds in 1893 on through the last GAH at live birds in 1902, virtually all the contestants were using smokeless powder shells.
From the introduction of the Remington Hammerless Doubles in the October 1894 Remington Arms Co. catalog, they were said to be "adapted to all nitro powders." By the November 1895 Remington Arms Co. catalog they state "Guaranteed for Nitro Powders."
Surviving Remington Arms Co. hang-tags I've seen show that in 1900 a 12-gauge K-Grade gun, 303821, was targeted with 3 1/2 drachms of FG black powder pushing 1 1/4 ounce of #8 shot. By 1902, a 12-gauge No. 1 Hammer Gun was targeted with a UMC 2 5/8 inch "SMOKELESS" shell loaded with 3 drams of DuPont Bulk Smokeless Powder pushing 1 1/4 ounce of #8 chilled shot. All the later hang-tags I've seen show the guns targeted with a UMC NITRO CLUB shell loaded with either three drams of bulk smokeless powder or 24 grains of dense smokeless powder, such as Infallible or Ballistite, pushing that 1 1/4 ounce of #8 chilled shot. One is over typed 7 1/2 and has a 7. stamped on the barrel lug next to the pellet counts.
Here's how,
1931 Winchester Model 21, 32" Vent Rib Trap, Full/Full.
90% Original Condition
Tamid - I am surprised you use black in your Remington trap. I dare say it never saw black powder shells until you used them in it. Nothing wrong with that, but that gun will work fine with modern loads or your smokeless hand loads
One day I may get around to experimenting with smokeless powder loads. In the meantime my BP loads cause a lot of comments and for a few minutes I get to extol the virtues of using vintage Sxs on the uninitiated.
Here's how,
1931 Winchester Model 21, 32" Vent Rib Trap, Full/Full.
90% Original Condition
Hey, Bob. Did you use photobucket to post that pic?
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