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Posted By: Yogi 000 Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/05/06 08:25 PM
I am getting into finishing and REfinishing stocks. I like the reddish and glossy look and feel of many older stocks. Older Merkels I think have a terrific look.

Recently I bought a new gun and before I even shot it I stripped the matte finish and experimented with many trials of mixes before I got something that worked close to my satisfaction although the finish was more brown and not as red as I wanted. The gun now however looks like it is worth $100 to $250 MORE now after the REfinish.

However after doing some research I learned that Alkanet Root was used to impart that reddish coloration used by many manufacturers up until recently when the process turned to faster and cheaper and I think not as refined looking. I just ordred some Alkanet Root to try on my next stock finishing project.

Bascially I am thinking of using the following approach.

Put Alkanet Root in small jar of Mineral Spirits and let root dye
the Mineral Spirits (2 weeks). Use this tinted Mineral Spirits throughout.

Fill: Mineral Spirits 4 parts and Linseed Oil 1 part. Wet sand and fill pores with this. 2-3 applications.

Seal & Color: Mineral Spirits 1 part and Linseed Oil 1 Part and Spar Varnish 1 part. Apply very thin coats. Sand lightly in between. 600 X grit paper. 4 -5 coats.

Apply Linseed Oil / Spar Varnish 1 to 1 as final coat.

Anyone have any input or insight on this???? Anyone have any experience using Alkanet or any RED dye to get that "look"???
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/05/06 09:00 PM
Yogi,
I'll be watching this thread for info from the old hands...but in the meantime I've been using Art's French Red (stain only, not the filler, from Brownells) and/or Minwax Sedona Red stain to get the red base color.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/05/06 09:04 PM
The "look" of the Winchester red oil finish is well replicated in the oil finish available from http://www.winrest.com. It is a subtle red, not anything garish as some reds can be.

Brent
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/05/06 09:20 PM
I tried to get alkanet root to color min. spiritts for about three week ---- nothing happened at all. When I tried it with alcohol it wirked great. I also tried a long soak of root & turp. -- turp took the stain nicely but I couldn't get a finish to ever truly dry even after setting for two weeks. This was the first finish coat & wasn't a thick coat either. I now use a redish finish I'm really happy with. It is furnished by Jim Chambers of Candler, N.C. Ken
Posted By: ChiefShotguns Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/05/06 09:20 PM
Lot of restorers and "refinishers" use alkanet root. It is the authentic red look. I mix a handful of the ground root into a 1.5 litre wine bottle full of tung oil/urethane mix and just leave it there soaking, refilling the tung oil mix as needed. I have a bottle I have used at least 6 or 7 years like that. The red color "just keeps going and going." I agree that the older Merkels and Sauers look great, and this finish emulates that look very well and wears great, and touches up easily. Be sure you label the wine bottle properly as to what is inside. It looks very much like a good rich Burgandy.
Posted By: yobyllib Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/05/06 09:23 PM
Try "Chestnut Ridge" military stain.
Posted By: PineKnot Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/05/06 10:12 PM
You are making all this unnecessarily complicated, unless that's what you want to do for the fun of it.
Any of the suggestions above, or consider Pilkington's spirit stains (Brownell's).
Forget the linseed and varnish home brew, and try one of the prepared polymerizing oil stock finishes which are really "light varnishes" (personally, I don't like Tru-oil, dries too fast), or use Minwax Antique oil or the similar product from Deft. They dry hard overnight (sandable) and cure completely in a week. They handle well in the process and give a true "oil" finish which is also tough and hard with only as much buildup as you care to allow.
There, the deep dark secret is out. That's a better magic witches brew than you could ever mix up yourself by the light of a full moon with human sacrifices and dinosaur blood. Put it up in a funky old bottle and act secretive about it and you will achieve master status before you know it.
Posted By: katienjessie Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/05/06 10:28 PM
I agree with Pineknot. The Minwax Antique Oil finish works very well. I havent seen it in a long time though at the local Home Depot. I have about half a can left.

Pineknot, What is the name of the Deft Product. I used to use their finish a long time ago on furniture but haven's seen much of their stuff in the Dallas area.
Regards, Gordon
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/06/06 05:09 AM
Pineknot,
It is people like you who put people like me on the breadline.Giving all my 'secrets' away for free.
All this new technology and products are a buggerance.
I may have to update my Model 'T' and get one of them there new fangled fridge things to chill my hooch.
Posted By: Dig Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/06/06 09:10 AM
I used to use 'Warthog Purdey's alkanet root oil' which is not bad. That is until I was given a jar of the real thing, mixed by hand by my gunsmith (ex-Purdey finisher). He leaves the alkanet root in the oil for months, the latest stuff he gave me was labelled 'March 2003' and looks like blood.

This really does give both the colour you want and it really brings out the figure - black lines, highlights etc will stand proud as colour variations once the oil finish is complete, you wont see it properly until towards the end.

Don't be afraid of applying alkanet root oil - it darkens (reddens) as much as the wood will take it. Sometimes you have to apply many coats and it takes days to soak up and darken the wood, other wood will absorb oil very fast and darken with two or three light coats.

Long after I learned to get the rubbed oil finish right and the results very good, I had to learn to really appreciate the correct colour development for each gunstock.

A 'wrong colour' stock shows the hand of the amateur -even through a shiny, smooth finish.

For the oil finish, I don't hold with many of these recipes - rubbed English oil is the way to go. Once you have learned how to work it, it gives exactly the right finish, as originally applied. It takes a while but not so long as to worry or need to approximate the finish by other means in my opinion.

The more stocks I finish, the more critical I become of my own work- and that of others. Gunmakers did not spend 7 years learning their trade for nothing. I am fortunate in having a very patient and skilled finisher, who is generous with his time and even his hard-learned trade secrets.

Many a time I have taken him a stock I have finished for his appraisal and gently been told to look at this corner or that knot or a colour variation, a dull patch or a lack of depth. This has often been on work that ordinary shooters have been very pleased with and been unable to see any imperfection in.

I've been re-finishing gunstocks using the traditional methods for almost six years and I still think my work is amateurish when I REALLY compare it with the work of a London apprenticed professional.

Interestingly, many people who see my work don't see anything to critcise - they think it is A1. But I know, and a real finisher knows, that it is probably only approaching A2 to a properly educated eye.

Each new stock is a learning process for me - that is why I enjoy doing it. It is also why I have a lot of ordinary guns with very carefully finished woodwork - practice is the key and there are no real shortcuts.
Posted By: jjwag69 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/06/06 12:37 PM
Not long ag someone posted a site in Canada where Alkanet root could be bought rather inexpensively. If anyone has that info, please repost. Thanks,

Jim
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/06/06 01:18 PM
Here's a site that's selling alkanet root. From the Garden State though, not Canada.
http://www.kalyx.com/store/proddetail.cfm/ItemID/317369.0/CategoryID/1000.0/SubCatID/25.0/file.htm
Posted By: jjwag69 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/06/06 02:13 PM
Thanks Yeti. I also found the Canadian site: http://www.wellnaturally.ca/herba-b.html
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/06/06 02:44 PM
and one more place:

http://www.zooscape.com/cgi-bin/maitred/GreenCanyon/questc101264/r07

Hey Dig, can you give us the recipe for the "real thing"? I'm always interested in such concotions, and I have a stock to finish in the not so distant future.

Brent
Posted By: PineKnot Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/06/06 08:24 PM
Gordon, the Deft product I referred to is identified as DEFTOIL, and "danish oil finish" on the quart can. The Minwax antique oil is usually available around here. Suggest trying woodworker's specialty stores or catalogs if you're having trouble finding either one.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/07/06 05:54 AM
Dig,
What do YOU call a 'rubbed ENGLISH oil finish'
bear in mind it seems to vary dependant on drying time!!!!!
Your interpretation would be valued, as BrentD said, please do share your knowledge with us and let us move away from Tru-oil and Tung oil finishes.
Posted By: Dig Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/07/06 10:16 AM
The oil is sometimes known in the trade as 'slacum' and it is a mixture of a number of ingrdients, recipes vary a little but it is basically turpentine and linseed oil.

Here is one recipe if you want to make it yourself:

Boiled linseed oil – 16 oz
Spirits of turpentine – 2 oz
Carnauba wax – 200 gr
Venice turpentine - 2 teaspoonfuls
Mix together and heat until it simmers. Simmer for ten minutes then allow to cool.
Be careful it does not catch fire -!!!!


However, Napier produces a ready-mixed formula in a neat little box with all the odds and ends to get you started. These kits are available at gun shops and save a lot of mess and smell. I find the Napier bottled oil works very well if used properly.

First prepare the wood - as with any job, the preparation will govern the finished result, so go back to the bare wood, restore the shapes and angles if need be and raise or fill any dents or gouges.

Apply red-oil (turpentine & bolied linseed oil in which alkanet root has been steeped.

When the colour is right, it depends on the wood how many coats this will take.Apply two coats of finishing oil with the palm of the hand sparingly – it will be absorbed. Remove any excess gently with fine wire wool, buff with a lint-free cloth (not a woven one) and then leave for two days before you apply a clear grain-filler, allow it to dry thoroughly and then rub it gently with fine wire wool.

Now begin the finish – this must be built up gradually in VERY thin layers. Rub the finishing oil in with the palm; use half as much as the minimum you think necessary. Do not leave any sticky residue on the wood, rub the oil into the wood until you feel it get hot in your hand. Leave a day between each coat and expect the process to take four or five weeks before it is finished. The results are surprising and pleasing, making all that work worthwhile.

Don't be afraid to cut the finish back with a little oil on a pad of fine wire woolwhen necessary - even half way throuh the process. This will ensure that the finish is smooth and it flattens out any indents where the grain may show. You want the finish to be smooth, flat and even.
Posted By: gunny Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/07/06 05:21 PM
I Googled and found the Napier kit at Cheaper Than Dirt for $29 for anyone thats interested
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/07/06 05:23 PM
Thanks Gunny, that was going to be my next question. I know my gun shops don't carry anything other than the commonest stuff.

And I forgot to add, THANKS a bunch for your follow up post Dig.

Brent
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/07/06 07:52 PM
Caveot Emptor,Napier whilst being an EXCELLANT product, I believe, is NOT a traditional oil finish.What it is, is a modified finish that dries very quickly and gives as standard a very high gloss finish.The kit that Dig mentions contains most of the items required to do a good refinish.
Remember, as I have said many times before on this subject.It is very hard to bottle 100 years of TLC, sweat and care for your piece of wood, which is exactly what as been lavished on the Purdey you are trying to copy.
Alkanet (anchusa officinalis, anchusa tincturia) a European weed. Take about 70grms of beaten / crushed root, immerse in 100ml of pure turpentine for about 4 weeks in a sealed jar then add 100ml of linseed oil and reseal leave for another 3 / 4 weeks and then use as required.
You could also use a potassium permanganate solution of water which will soak much deeper into the wood (and of course raise the grain. AGAIN )this will impart a nice colour which you do have some control over, but remember the addition of successive oil coats will darken the wood progressively so do beware.
Have a snigger at my expense over the following anecdote.
About 10 years ago I had to refinish 10 of No4 Enfield rifles, I lavished about 3 coats of colour to the beautiful smooth wood and then numerous coats of linseed end result = fantastic dark mahogany coloured woodwork FAR too dark to conform with MILSPEC, a BIG NO NO. Result = A very very happy Colonel who's 'Boys' had better rifles than the rest, my boss received a letter of commendation and I got all the Officers shotguns to refurbish and I got paid to do it fulltime rather than as 'just a little favour'
I had plenty of driven days for about 3 years until the Colonel got a posting.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/07/06 08:38 PM
Wow. I didn't expect so many responses to this original "alkanet" post.... but then again this is the best gun site on the web; with purists and people who care deeply about the appearance of their stocks...soooooo.... I am really NOT THAT surprised.

Great info, too! Thanks to all who posted. I am cutting and paste-ing the formulas.

By the way, I am far far far from an expert but I tried some of the DEFT products and pemixed stuff and well, I am not pleased with the results and I am hardly an expert or have an expert eye as was posted above... (which was a great post by the way).

I guess I will "brew up" my alkanet potion and label it with x's and be sure not to mistake it for burgandy and while some may think it is a horrible waste of time I will WAIT to see how well it actually works before I put it down or taut it as the best thing since sliced bread. I do have the alkanet root ordered and on its way. I am psyched to read all the posts that confirm that it was the stuff used by the old (and many new) stock finishers.
Posted By: PineKnot Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/07/06 09:57 PM
Yogi, I think it is worth remembering here that this is not, or doesn't have to be, an either or question. Some of us here have been doing this for a long time and have used the old traditional methods and materials as well as the "newer" options, which themselves are hardly new.
Some diehards may disagree, but we're all headed in the same direction and the desired result is the same. It is just a fact that there are several ways to get there. As in most things that are not simple or obvious, technique and process are really as or more important than the materials.
Excellent results can be achieved with all the materials mentioned in this thread. The traditional materials touted yield an excellent result which I think of as an exhibition finish because it is somewhat fragile and extremely vulnerable to water spotting. The new boys on the block get you a more durable finish of equal quality and color that does not waterspot nearly as badly, and get you there a lot faster. Time is still money.
Since that is the case, some would be surprised to learn what stock finishing materials actually reside on (or under?) upscale benches both here and across the pond.
Posted By: HIGH$TRAP Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/08/06 12:43 AM
Another source:
http://www.villagespinweave.com/IBS/SimpleCat/Product/asp/hierarchy/0B/product-id/374585.html
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/09/06 05:27 AM
Yogi,
I have just re-read your original post,in it you mention how you would prefer an original oil finish, but then describe how you intended to finally use an oil / varnish mix.
This got me thinking, what do people REALLY want.
Is it a traditional oil finish? A high gloss French Polished finish? A hard wearing Urethane finish? Varnish?.
What is the preferable finish Guys?
I think each one mentioned has its usages but whenever we get down to the nitty gritty of a hand rubbed traditional oil finish the information available to do it is often contradictory or even unavailable.
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/09/06 01:51 PM
Salopian,
I think your basic question is excellent. I want a finish inbetween traditional oil and urethane-modified oil.
I prefer the look of linseed oil but desire more protection than plain oil but straight Tru-Oil is too glossy. So I mix the two.
  • Sealer coat; TO and turp about 50/50, the mix is meant to penetrate.
  • Filler coats are wet-sanded TO and Linseed about 30/70, too much TO in this step can make the filled pores glossier than the wood.
  • Working coats are about 40/40/20 TO, Oil, and turp.
  • Top coats are pure linseed.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/09/06 03:24 PM
I've always used the wet sand and fill method for filling the open grain. Can anyone suggest a clear filler with no shrinkage that would lessen the dark pore look?
Posted By: John Mc Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/09/06 07:50 PM
A pint jar with a tight lid full of the root and then add boiled linseed oil to the top and let it sit. The better the longer or vice versa. this what the mix is the english stockers use. We all have pet formulas but this is simple and works! The KISS method forever.
John Mc
Posted By: John Mc Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/09/06 07:52 PM
A pint jar with a tight lid full of the root and then add boiled linseed oil to the top and let it sit. The better the longer or vice versa. this what the mix is the english stockers use. We all have pet formulas but this is simple and works! The KISS method forever.
John Mc
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/10/06 06:17 AM
Hansli,
Years ago I used the white of an egg (albumin) then I used egg gloss which you could by in tins from the chemist (builders used it to seal concrete swim / fish pools) then I used sanding sealer,then I used multiple coats of spar varnish each one cut back when dry.Wet sanding with stock oil always works.
BUT nothing really works like rubbed in oil and time and patience.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/10/06 01:12 PM
Salopian,
Thanks. Typically, the masters have already factored all the methods to prime. There is ultimately a best single method for a best single result. Shortcuts have been devised but never quite give the same result. What you're saying is there's no substitute for time and elbow grease.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/10/06 01:21 PM
Hansli, the stuff used as a cement sealer years ago is called "water glass". It is sodium silicate and can be found in drug stores by the quart for some reason. I use it to seal brass shotgun cartridges.

If you used albumin to seal anything, it would rot with moisture.

Brent
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/10/06 03:19 PM
Pineknot and sal and others---Yes, fully agreed: there are two or more ways to get "there" and yes everyone has different preferences / tastes.

I really agree with the posts that describe blending TWO elements. This is what I discovered accidentally: I wanted some attributes of oil and some attributes of varnish / urethane, and the way to get there seemed to me was to combine.

As a past epoxy formulator I am keen to blends and also as a past epoxy formulator I am very alert to incompatiability issues or chemical reactions when TWO or more ingredients are combined that should not be combined...

And that was part of the reason for laying out the original post. My formula combined oil and spar varnish and I was looking to get others people's experience with such an "un-orthodox" combining and even combining of methods. (turns out of coarse it was not really unorthodox and others have been there before me... no surprise there ...

Great info so far and thanks to all. I guess what I was looking for too was how to use the linseed oil to get it to 'dry' even a bit faster so I could go over it with a spar varnish (or other glossier finish) most likely a combination of some sort. Also, I wanted to get the forum's take on the use of ALKANET and the best carrier for it.
Posted By: Jagermeister Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/10/06 03:46 PM
All a Merkel Freres needs is qy-biy application of Scherell's Schaftol of appropriate shade!
Why, you boys are like native medicine men with all them 'roots 'n spirits'.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/10/06 05:14 PM
Jagermeteister---It may be easy for you... but I did a google search for Scherell's Schaftol and all I get are websites NOT in English. Hence I am having a difficult time even locating this stuff.

I would like to find a finish product that would get me the look and feel of the wood on an older Merkel and not require seven weeks of multisteps. So I am most interested in this Scherell's Schaftol but I need a source that speaks English.

Posted By: PineKnot Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/10/06 05:20 PM
Yogi, At the risk of beating a dead or dying horse, I would suggest that the Minwax Antique Oil, the product I have most personal experience with, is indeed linseed based and in fact is the exact combination of components and finishing qualities you seek to achieve with your field expedient mixture. I suppose the question then becomes whether experienced paint chemists can do a better job of compounding than I can by winging it. Personal experience and common sense suggests a clear answer for me. Your view may be different, but it will be an interesting journey in any case.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/10/06 06:14 PM
BrentD,
Albumin was used for many years as a sealant, perhaps because it was sealed in by oils in hopefully dry conditions originally, moisture was not too much of a problem in reality. Pineknot,
Most Antique Oils to my knowledge may also be called Danish Oil which just happens to be formulated from Tung and Linseed oil.
Many of my old recipes include the ingredient Vinegar.
Why? what properties does Vinegar have?
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/10/06 06:18 PM
Thanks, BrentD.
Posted By: BrentD, Prof Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/10/06 06:27 PM
Salopian, I can see where it was sealed in oil, it might last longer. I think it might have been an ingredient in artists' paints as well.

Vinegar might be there for it's acidic properties?

Brent
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/10/06 07:22 PM
Pineknot-- Minwax Antique Oil sounds like good medicine. I have used Minwax products 'red mahogony' blended with mineral spirits and linseed oil with good success... So after your last post I called the local paint and stain company and they did not have the antique oil, nor did Home Depot / Lowes. So, where do you get Minwax Antique Oil..

And regarding the vinegar... yes it is acidic but what does THAT do in the formulations? Why is more acid needed? Does it help catalyze or retard the polymers?

Great info! Thanks!
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/11/06 05:13 AM
Yogi 000,
Your last post, second paragraph is spot on.I could not have said it better myself.
Surely we have a Chemist, or paint Technician who could give us an answer as to why Vinegar is used.According to Sir Peter Hawker, Joe Manton used vinegar in his stock finishing oil. Vinegar is also used in most Furniture reviving polishes.
Can you get Liberon products over there?
if so you could try Liberon Finishing Oil a very good finishing oil indeed.
Posted By: Dig Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/11/06 09:30 AM
One small point that I found interesting - my friend the Purdey finisher told me one of the reasons he believes that oil finishes now are not as good as they once were is that lead used to be added to the mix and this enhanced the shine of the finish.

Clearly now this is excluded on health and safety reasons, as the finish is applied with the palm and rubbed repeatedly.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/11/06 01:03 PM
Note: North American source for Schaftol:www.bitsofpieces.com
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/11/06 02:42 PM
Dig--- Interesting. The Purdey finisher gave you info that doesn't quite jive with what I know about lead though. Here is a quote from a scientist---

"Paints used to contain lead because lead oxide is a white pigment with very good "hiding" properties. Paint contained lead years ago because lead oxide was one of the few pigments available. Lead, in the form of lead chromate, was, and still is, used in some specialty paints such as primers for steel bridges and ships because it has good anti-corrosion properties. It is also still used in yellow highway paints, because no substitute has been found that works
nearly as well. Today, lead is not used in paints for domestic uses."---Vince Calder

Hence, there would be no reason to put lead in a essentially clear (certainly not white) oil that is used to seal and /or protect wood. It would pigment it white.

However, he may know something I don't know. However, I would ask him what properties this lead was supposed to provide to the oils used on gunstocks?
Posted By: Rockdoc Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/11/06 02:54 PM
The kind of lead compound that was formerly used as an anti-knock compound in gasoline over time would leave a dark red deposit on your carburator and even gave gasoline a somewhat reddish color, particularly hi-octane gas. Maybe that's what they used.
Steve
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/11/06 05:55 PM
It is correct that lead was used in finishing oils years ago, this could possibly have been a carry over from the paint industry, as many finishing oils started life in the laboratories of paint companies.
I would dispute that modern finishing oils are inferior, in fact I would think the opposite is true.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/11/06 08:12 PM
Sal---I agree that the modern finishing oils are or can be quite beautiful and in many ways superior.

I think the look most manufacturers have gone to recently is more a function of the style or the fad if you will. Matte is in style for many wood guns or the gloss on the laminate stock (which I do not like at all but many seem to like it).

Simply stated: Matte is "in vogue" for many nonlaminate guns and then you also have the high gloss urethane 870 BDL look. Both are FAST to achieve, as well.

However, in restoring a fine shotgun or double gun, or even the finish that some of us would put on a new gun would be one that looks much more like the finish on old guns. (Which is quite different from the TWO popular current directions in finishes on new guns).

I saw some very expensive double rifles newly made, and quite frankly I did NOT like the look of the finish at all. It looked like decoupage...
over a nice piece of wood.
Posted By: PineKnot Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/11/06 08:28 PM
Yogi, To answer your question about Minwax Antique Oil availability, try specialty paint stores or any store catering to woodworkers. I also find it in really good hardware store paint departments. It's not everywhere, but it is out there. Look for a red rectangular quart can.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/11/06 08:46 PM
Cool! I will!
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/12/06 05:45 PM
Vinegar?
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/12/06 06:25 PM
By the way, I share the view of many others that it seems the beauty of the wood is being covered up or at least not enhanced by some of the "modern approaches". Just for my education, I bought a modern new replica----A Stevens Favorite Model 30, single shot, 22 magnum, octagon barrel, rolling block-type action, and straight stock cut like they did in 1870's. Before I fired a round through it I had it apart and was stripping the finish. (The finish was horrible by the way. Matte finish, bumpy, no fill of the pits and grains. Not that I expected great from such a cheapy gun. The wood looked boring too). But after playing around with the stock since NOVEMBER, trying different oils, varnishes etc and then stripping them off I finally found something I liked: linseed oil, red mahogony MINWAX, spar varnish. The wood is truly beautiful! This piece of wood does NOT look like the same wood of the gun I bought. Guys who have seen it say it does look darn good and they could not believe it was a new replica; they thought it was an old gun in part because the finish looked like the sort of finish they did when they put time and effort into them. I can't wait to get my new "project gun".
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/13/06 05:15 AM
Yogi 000,
Interesting you have found and liked mahogany colour.This is the colour I use for restoring No8 Enfields and it is always pleasing to the eye.
I spoke to a longtime retired stocker (96 years old) yesterday who told me he used to use vinegar to clean off the sweat,dirt and natural oils that stocks accumulate during normal usage before he did a renovation finish.
Posted By: Dig Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/13/06 08:38 AM
Malt, wine or balsamic?

BTW - the missing secret ingredient is terebine!
Posted By: builder Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/13/06 11:32 AM
Could the vinegar be used to be sure there is no alkali in the presence of alkanet to make sure it remains red and does not turn blue in the alkali?
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/15/06 03:22 AM
Today I was amazed to find out that the local importer of Minwax products has quite the assortment. Have yet to find out they carry Antique Oil, but I did see a list that included TUNG OIL. I remember reading about it here, but cannot say what. Any comments?

They do have the Red Mahogany BTW.

JC(AL)
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/15/06 04:52 AM
What is Tru - oil?
The reason I ask will be fully explained if someone out there can tell me what Birchwood Casey's Tru -oil really is.
Maybe with a brand name like that it may not be what the label says?
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/15/06 08:33 PM
salopian,
What it really is I don't know, but I've been operating for years under the assumption that it's mixture of boiled linseed oil, urethane and a bit of japan drier.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/15/06 08:52 PM
Tung Oil anyone?

JC(AL)
Posted By: PineKnot Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/15/06 08:57 PM
As far as I know, Truoil is a polymerized oil/resin varnish, much like the other products discussed here. These thinned light varnishes, sometimes described as danish oils, are usually combinations of either polymerized linseed or tung oil, and resins. The resins can be alkyd, phenolic, or urethane. Presumably combinations of all of these would be possible, but I think usually either linseed or tung oil and one of the resins would be used. I think Truoil is linseed based, but I have no direct knowledge. For my purposes, it is too thick, builds up too much, and dries too quickly to handle properly in the finishing process.
These products, depending on their formulation, can have very different handling qualities and final results, and therein lies the rub (sorry). Remember, the finishes we're talking about here (I think), are more in the wood than on it, with very little surface buildup.
Incidentally, polymerized oil is oil (tung or linseed) that has been heated in an oxygen free environment to somewhere around 500F, which apparently modifies its molecular structure significantly for the better. Commercial "boiled" linseed is nothing but raw linseed to which metallic dryers have been added, and is an inferior product for any wood finishing purpose.
Posted By: PineKnot Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/15/06 09:08 PM
JayCee, I'm not sure what your question is, but tung oil is produced from the nuts of the tung tree (China, South America). By itself, it is as useless a wood finish as raw linseed. As a finish component it has great value and apparently some advantages over linseed, such as better moisture resistance and less of the warm amber color of linseed. Personally, I don't see this as any advantage where gunstocks are concerned, but on very light colored woods it is.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/16/06 04:46 AM
PK, you have answered my question.

Thank you.

JC(AL)
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/16/06 04:55 AM
Pineknot,
Thank you for your answer,I also find that Truoil is too thick and goes onto the wood rather than into it. It is also a devil to remove if you are refinishing.
I strive for a finish that is always allowed to penetrate the pores and gets into the wood even though if you cut a stock to repad you will be amazed how little that penetration is.But in the end it is really all about what pleases the eye of the beholder.
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/16/06 03:14 PM
My favorite stock finish to date is plain old bees wax. I've used it on maple and it penetrates deep, looks great,is easily repaired and seems to be reasonably weather resistant.Im not sure how it would work on an open grained wood like walnut but I'm quite pleased with the results on maple.

Cody
I've used Minwax Red Mahogany oil finish (by multiple gallons) for sealing treated lumber on a three story wood porch. That was in addition to roofing tar adhesive and topcoating. Messy but fits my 19th century and earlier wooden man-o-war ship building mind for heavy outdoor lumber.

On exposure to normal weather it will turn brownish. I am sure it is a good penetrating material based on my observations and expereince and if the color holds (it does, indoors) as a reddish brown, it would be a useful stock coloring. However my applications are heavy.

I have Tru Oil and Brownells' tung oil and found both to be worth experimentation on English walnut. However the blank I was working with is solid but undistinguished quarter-grain. Solid and stable but minimal figure on the Butt and only some interesting slavage grain on the front part which would be made into a forend.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/18/06 05:05 AM
Sheraton, the furniture maker used 'red oil' to colour mahogany.Here is a modified version of his 'red oil' recipe.
Take 4oz of alkanet root, broken into short strips,as much opened with the hand as possible, so that the bark of the root which tinges the oil may fly off, steep in 1pint of raw linseed oil to which you have added 1 tablespoon of the oil of the spruce, steep for a week and strain it through a cloth.
This makes a strong colour, you may have to dilute the colour with more linseed oil to suit your need.Oil of the spruce I believe is turpentine.
Should you require other traditional recipes I may be able to help.
Salopian
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/18/06 01:16 PM
Dig wrote:
Quote:
Here is one recipe if you want to make it yourself:

Boiled linseed oil – 16 oz
Spirits of turpentine – 2 oz
Carnauba wax – 200 gr
Venice turpentine - 2 teaspoonfuls
I cooked a batch exactly as written but instead of an oil, mine cooled to a wax paste solid. I must have done something wrong or 200 grams of carnauba is the wrong proportion. I might heat it to 110-120 degrees and work with it warm on a test piece but I'm not sure that's the ticket either. Dig or anyone care to speculate?
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/18/06 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Hansli:
Dig wrote:
Quote:
Here is one recipe if you want to make it yourself:

Boiled linseed oil – 16 oz
Spirits of turpentine – 2 oz
Carnauba wax – 200 gr
Venice turpentine - 2 teaspoonfuls
I cooked a batch exactly as written but instead of an oil, mine cooled to a wax paste solid. I must have done something wrong or 200 grams of carnauba is the wrong proportion. I might heat it to 110-120 degrees and work with it warm on a test piece but I'm not sure that's the ticket either. Dig or anyone care to speculate?
Maybe it's supposed to be 200 GRAINS of wax .

Cody
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/18/06 02:56 PM
D'oh, that would make sense. Any idiot should know gram is abbreviated 'g', not 'gr'. I don't think in grains except for powder and shot. I think I'll take my brain out and wash it tonight. Straightened out by a Canadian, no less. Thanks, Cody.
Posted By: Dig Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/18/06 03:37 PM
Sorry for the delayed response - just got back from a very hot wedding in rome (not mine!)

Well spotted Cody! Old recipe, old measures - I should have translated to modern proportions!

let me know how you get on with it - I'm also trialling a mix with the same make up but a small measure of modern Terebine (unfortunately we can't get the old version as it is carcinogenic and banned in the UK).

My brother (a research chemist) suggested I try a third world country (Cody?) as it is still probably produced somewhere, but he warns against it as he said it was banned for a good reason. Still, the old Terebine drier was Harry Lawrence's 'secret ingredient' and is apparently the key to the hardest wearing, shinyest finish.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/18/06 08:52 PM
Yes, it should have been grains. 218gr = 1/2 oz or 1 tablespoon and even that amount will be on the thick side with 16oz of linseed.
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/18/06 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by salopian:
Yes, it should have been grains. 218gr = 1/2 oz or 1 tablespoon and even that amount will be on the thick side with 16oz of linseed.
Don't think so. You must be refering to FLUID ounces. Grains is a measure of weight, (one grain of wheat). If the creator of the recipe intended to have the wax measured in liquid form I suspect it would be listed in oz like the other fluid ingridients. Therefore, if the wax is to be measured as a solid (which to my way of thinkin makes sence), it would be 200 grains which would convert to 15.4 grams. or .457 oz. Are we sufficiently confused yet

Cody
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/19/06 12:35 AM
Mass and volume of solids...pound of feathers, pound of lead. 200 grains of carnauba flakes is almost 2 tablespoons.
The new batch with the adjusted wax content is still a liquid, and somewhat viscous as per Salopian. Once I have a chance to use it, I will post my review.
Is there another name for "terebine"? Will do a net search but anything which like mercury and gold for plating old guns and armor, which is deadly and causes all kinds of diseases and tumors, has gotta be good for use on old traditional gunstocks.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/19/06 05:03 AM
It is laughable that we are talking grains, grams, grammes, oz., fl.oz., when what we are trying to replicate was probably measured in cups,mugs,jugs,spoons, splashes & dashes.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/19/06 05:09 AM
F.S.Piekarczyk,
Try Japan Driers or terebin but don,t worry too much because modern BLO or Artist's BLO is far more refined than what Harry had at his disposal, what you can't buy is, time & patience.
Posted By: Dig Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/19/06 09:38 AM
Salopian - are you giong to the CLA GAme Fair? I'm on the Sporting Shooter stand on Gunmakers Row - drop by and have a beer, cup of tea, oggle at the promo girls etc.

I'll have afew intereting guns with me.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/19/06 07:11 PM
Dig, Thanks for the invitation, a beer would be nice.
Posted By: LLemke Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/19/06 10:43 PM
Something that goes on smooth, doesn't dry too fast and makes a good finish is Tru Oil/Artists linseed mixed 50/50%. Any good art store has the linseed and it certainly makes finishing a much easier task than using Tru Oil by itself.

Lenard
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/20/06 05:42 AM
Dig,
Can you get Venetian Turpentine down South?
The artist's supply shops round here do not stock it and do not have it in their catalogues.
Posted By: Dig Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/20/06 07:26 AM
Yes, you should find it on the internet too - quite a few suppliers will send it to you.

Try artmail.co.uk or call 01722 335 928
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/20/06 02:40 PM
Salopian, if it's of any help, I found mine at a equine supply. It's apparently used by farriers to treat and condition hooves. The art supply house only had 'synthetic' Venice @ about 5x the price. I'll send you some as I think a pint will last me the rest of my life. Drop me a PM if interested.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/22/06 03:59 AM
Hansli,
That is a most gracious offer and really appreciated.But I am afraid I will have to pass.The last time I can remember Americans sending oil to the UK was the Torrey Canyon and the Exxon Valdiz, both buggered our beaches for months afterwards.
Dig, thanks for the link, apparently Chester is a bit 'arty' so I may have a ride up there soon.
I look forward to seeing you at Broadlands,we can put the World to right then.
It is quite amazing how this can run to 6 pages and still there is no definition as to what a hand rubbed finish is or desired. Also Truoil always figures highly in the pecking order.Truoil is the Italian guntrade standard oil finish, as Native Americans may have said 'Heap good medicine' or was that firewater?
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/22/06 03:44 PM
The Valdez wrecked in Alaska and much as I'd like to take national credit for the Torrey, alas I find oilmen have no country.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/22/06 07:07 PM
I apologize, a touch of 'Old timers'
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/24/06 06:05 AM
Dig,
Do you reckon Harry used Carnuaba Wax? I think if he used wax at all it was probably beeswax.
Does anyone know what Rose Pink is?
Posted By: Dig Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/24/06 11:03 AM
Carnauba wax is what I was told - and substitute turpentine for Terebine, as mentioned before. Am making a batch of each recipe this week, will test results comparitively on two stocks over the next few weeks.

One of the problems with stock finishes is that every bit of wood behaves differently. Some take loads of coats, some take far fewer before a finish develops. Some react well and respond to the oiling and polishing better than you expect, others disappoint.

However, of the commercially available products, I find Napier the best and personally can't tell much difference between it and a hand-made batch.

It has to go on with the hand and be rubbed in and polished off, allowed to dry overnight and in every other manner is a traditional finish product.

I use Tru-oil for sticks and knife handles (which I make out of old gunstocks) as it dries faster but don't get on with it for guns.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/24/06 08:55 PM
Well, I received my Alkanet herb in the mail last week and added about 4 ounces to about 16 oz of mineral spirits. Been sitting about a week.

The mixture is red now, yet, it goes on wood "pink". I think I need more coming together time.

ugh.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/25/06 03:43 PM
Yogi 000,
Look on page 5, Sheraton recipe really works well.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/26/06 09:04 PM
Salopian---Can I use BOILED linseed oil? I have a ton of that.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/30/06 07:34 PM
Yogi 000,
Yes of course you can substitute boiled for raw.Possibly with better results.Let us know how you get on.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/03/06 06:48 PM
Talking to a 'Best' gun maker the other day and he had the following to say "Show me any written word that tells you about a 'Best' gunmakers stock finishing/polishing procedure? It just never as been done." I think what he means is that no one has ever explained it in depth and written it down.
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/11/06 01:55 AM
has anybody been able to try there concoctions..i sure am interested in how this turns out...i have acquired all the parts and hoping for your replies...thanks in advance bugsy
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/12/06 07:43 PM
Waiting for Dig to update us on his concoctions
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/18/06 01:23 AM
hey dig ...how are you coming along on your mixes..i just mixed three seperate mixes...all simple alk with alcohol..alk with boiled linseed ...alk with mineral spirits..made enough of each to be able to split into seperate batches with additional additives....bugsy
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/18/06 01:27 AM
salopian...what does the venetian turp do...what does it do?? thanks bugsy
Posted By: chopperlump Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/18/06 02:28 AM
Lads, I just picked up some of the Behlen stain in Blood Red. Applied it to a small spot on the stock (finished with True Oil and then rubbed down with rottenstone and linseed oilwith a felt pad to kill the shine) --- and it looked so good and penetrated the True Oil that I stained the whole stock of my Sarasqueta 20 gauge 4E. I am impressed! Rich, deep color that sunk in. Wiped away the excess and the gun looks great! Thanks for the tip. Sure beats making your own dragon blood. Chopper
Posted By: outdoorlvr Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/18/06 05:38 AM
Chopper - Had a similar experience with a Behlen product - - which really might be their analine dye. - - This dye according to my cabinet maker guru is far more finely grained than stain and just does a better coloring job.

This is the stuff also uses a proprietary thinner, much like alcohol. Several years ago, I had what I thought was going to be a real bear of a stock coloring problem when I jumped too quickly from dyeing to oiling. After a couple treatments of Permalin it was obvious that I still had wood portions that were much too light. I thought I was going to have to strip and start over again, but did what you did - - simply applying some of the dye on top of the hardened oil. It went right thru just like your experience. Moreover, as I continued with this stock, I was able to apply the dye to smaller areas a couple of more times right thru the oil. Worked great.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/18/06 03:30 PM
Just ordered my Behlen in Blood Red. I trust the sage advice oft espoused on this forum and generally gain much insight from the positive experiences related, thus I feel no reluctance to pluck down a few dollars to give this Behlen in Blood Red a spin. Thank YOU, gentlemen.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/18/06 03:46 PM
I have started applying the oil/wax /venetian etc brew to my stock. I must say that so far it is a very elegant liquid to work with and leaves a nice patina to the wood. We'll see what it looks like 237 or so thin coats later.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/19/06 10:33 AM
Because we are bridging The World on this site we have to take into account, availability, taste, need to stay original etc.,
I therefore welcome this exchange of methods, skills, thoughts and ideas.
Whilst the original question was about alkanet root oil which is historic and traditional, we must be aware and also embrace modern technology.
Thanks for the insight into Behlen products in the USA.
UK residents may consider Rustins,Coloron,Liberon,Blackfriars products which in my experience are all excellant products, some better than others but that is personal preferance.
Now if only some one could give me a recipe for quick drying stock oil???????
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/19/06 02:06 PM
Quote:
Applied it to a small spot on the stock (finished with True Oil and then rubbed down with rottenstone and linseed oilwith a felt pad to kill the shine) --- and it looked so good and penetrated the True Oil
Just to clarify, are you saying that the stock had been finished with TO some time ago and the dye coloured the wood right through the old TO finish??. If so, how long ago was the finish applied?

Thanks
Cody
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/19/06 02:12 PM
Cody,
Most of these 'spirit based' stains will work through an oil based finish as Yogi said. From the smell I think the spirit is MEK, a non chlorinated solvent.
Posted By: chopperlump Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/19/06 03:27 PM
Cody. the stock on my Sarasqueta had been finished with TO a few months before I tried the stain. Went right through the hardened finish and believe it or not, brought out some hidden fiddlebck grain. I couldn't be happier with the result. Hope this helps you out. To hell with the chemistry of alkanet root. Also, Pilkington's spirit stain stinks. Rubbed right off when I applied the first coat of True Oil. Chopper
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/20/06 03:40 AM
Thanks, I'll have to try to find some of this Behlen stuff and experiment.

Cody
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/20/06 05:03 AM
Behlens Solar-Lux Blood Red
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/20/06 10:50 AM
We have a Woodcraft store where I live and I bought a bottle of the Behlens Blood Red. I am gathering ingredients to make "traditional" red oil and will compare that with Behlens and my old standard-Fiebings Mahogany Leather Dye.

The Fiebings gives a very dark red stain. You can lighten it by wiping down the stock with denatured alcohol on a paper towel. I really like this dye, but am always looking for something better.
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/20/06 12:28 PM
Thanks Yeti.

Marc, I've used fiebings on curly maple and it gives a nice colour but fades real bad.

Cody
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/20/06 01:31 PM
Chopper, how about some pictures?

JC(AL)
Posted By: chopperlump Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/20/06 10:35 PM
Although I claim to have the mind of an eight-year old boy, nonetheless, a calendar reminds me that I am of 7/15/36 vintage, ergo totally out of touch with modern photography. However, my good neighbor whose Rem. 700 .270 on which we will soon refinish the stock, is conversant with modern stuff. In short, I'll have Scott snap a few of my Sarasqueta and he will know how to send tham along. P.S. might even include a few of his 700 after completion. Chopper
Posted By: Dig Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/21/06 01:19 PM
I'll update you when I have a finished stock to report on - Just got back from Norway and too busy at work to do much with guns this month - managing to get my Lee grouse gun prepared but not ready for oil yet. Still raising dents and clewaning out checkering etc.

The redo oil works fine - just did an Edwinson Green - came up very nice. All the black figure darkened well and the red coloured the rest of the wood in fine contrast. The finish i Used was the Napier stock oil. This is good stuff, my only criticism ofit is that it needs alot of drying time between very fine coats if the finished result is to be hard enough.

The finish always shines up well, but the hardness at the end is where the drying is critical.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/22/06 03:36 PM
Linseed Oil and a little Alkanet Root steeped in mineral spirits.... I blend them together to get a nice red colour.

Then I add gloss Spar Varnish 50 / 50 by volume. Gives the shine I like.

But it is slow to dry.

Anyone have any better idea of how to speed it up and give me a nice deep shine?
Going by the book spar varnish never dries. After all it is made for outdoor applications on boats. Maybe reduce the spar varnish or substuitute something else.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/24/06 06:04 AM
This thread as come a long way from the original red oil enquiry.
To keep it on track we really do have to differentiate between oil finishes and lacquer and polyurethane.Spar varnish does dry but is formulated to be flexible to cope with the rigours of a seafaring way of life.The usage your gun is going to be used for can determine the final finish.Is it going to be used for wildfowling, sporting clays or for display in the gun cabinet?
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/24/06 03:31 PM
Indeed. And I think it is fair to say most people have a number of guns so all of us have more than one stock finish direction. Yet the range of things i learn on this thread can be applied to each of my gun finish options.

Personally, most of my guns are field guns and I have no cabinet queens. But I have beaters and I have NICE field guns.

I want finishes that are durable and can be repaired easily. That said, and since I started this alkanet thingy, I do have preferance for red stocks, deep rich red stocks. The older doubles, like merkels, always catch my eye from across the room or at 20 paces in the field and then up close I just like their look and feel even more.

I've been trying to duplicate that "look" with alkanet or at least come up with stock finishes and methods that gets what I call---"a rich oil look with a deep and protective shine"... and yes RED RED is good.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/24/06 06:40 PM
Yogi,'That look' normally comes from an expensive piece of English,French,Claro Walnut sanded and boned to perfection by a Master craftsman and then treated to numerous = many coats of well rubbed in linseed oil over many weeks / months whilst the rest of the gun is being made / tested / blued /finished.
Remember America gave us fast food and Tru-oil.
Great Britain gave you Great Guns, Tradition, and hopefully patience.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/24/06 07:13 PM
Don't forget jeeps and freighters launched in 30 days. Fast is right.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/24/06 07:50 PM
Yea, I here you... Time honored methods. They have a look that cannot be replaced with fast-track methods.

BTW: The Blood Red, Behlen stain just arrived by mail. Oh boy I get to play tonite.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/24/06 08:01 PM
Boyohboyohboy, can't wait to hear your results YOGI. I'll shortly be in the market for some of your SuperRed stain/finish on another project. Ken
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/24/06 08:15 PM
I'm jumping in here late, but I have a gun that a really masterful craftsman from NY did the restoration on. He restocked it as well as any wellknown stockmaker's work and the finish is superb. It has a nice sheen that is a bit on the glossy side but 'in-the-wood'.

The process he outlined to me was that he took Pro-Custom Oil in the aerosol can and sprayed it into a cup and thinned 50% with mineral spirits. Then sanded in half a dozen coats and the usual sanding to smooth. Then sprayed a couple coats and sanded/polished to desired sheen. The PCO dries very quickly and is durable and waterproof.

I almost forgot, since PCO is compatible with mineral spirits, one could take the solution of alkenet root/mineral spirits and blend with the PCO.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/25/06 01:18 AM
Chuck, would this old man be Brian Burgen ? If so, he is closing down the biz. ken
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/25/06 06:18 AM
Hansli,thanks for your response to my tongue in cheek 'pop' you know as well as I that the UK has to be eternally grateful to Alan Ladd & John Wayne.
Chuck H, yes of course modern techniques are very efficient and may well exceed older traditional methods, using less time and making less mess.The difficult decision will always be when to use modern or traditional techniques.
I think traditional 'English' oil rubbed will always be preferred on a quality exhibition or collectors piece, IMHO.
I wonder what the teutonized Purdey would have looked like?
Talk about fast, when the antis started putting pressure on the ol' boys' sport - the English gun came over by the ship load.
We now have more of 'em, than they do!
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/25/06 03:22 PM
And Henry J.Kaiser. salopian, all kidding aside, I'm on about my fourth pass with the stock oil blend you posted when this all started and it is everything I had hoped it would be. I oil wet sanded to 1500 grit, let dry and started application of English finish and the clarity and sheen are breathtaking. As far as protection from the elements...when it's raining I will take a 'rain gun'. Tru Oil is no substitute for what is appearing before my eyes. Thanks for the heads up on the formula.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/25/06 05:33 PM
Hansli, glad your having success, perhaps only another 16 coats to go.But you will see when it is finished,if other people see it you will know it is finished when you hear 'Wow' 'Oooo' & 'Gee'.
Crossedchisels (David) if you see this Reg Wallin says Hi and also 72 year young working stocker Ken Dawson asks to be remembered ex W&C Scott, Westley, Greener.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/26/06 07:10 AM
Bugsy, sorry I missed your question.
Venetian turpentine helps to increase the gloss finish, gives flexability to the surface finish and aids drying.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/28/06 07:23 AM
I went to a Birmingham guntrade re-union last Friday 25th, and got talking to some of my old mates (long retired) after the usual mickey taking about my witches brew and alchomy, black cat and pointy hat we all settled down and chewed over stock finishes.
Now here is the surprise.EVERYONE agreed that they used RAW linseed!!!!! When this point was pursued the general concensus was "it was readily available, cheap, and you are messing with its make up and modifying its drying time with dryers in any case" they also felt it gave a better finish as well.
Posted By: Rockdoc Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/28/06 10:43 AM
I googled flaxseed oil and I was right, linseed seed oil is the same as flaxseed oil, the difference being in the method of extraction. Flaxseed oil is basically extra-virgin linseed oil. When the flax seeds are cold-pressed the first oil drawn is collected and marketed as flaxseed oil (a vegetable oil rich in Omega 3) the remaining oil is then obtained by using solvents to aid extraction and is marketed as linseed oil. So... if only the best quality "extra-virgin" linseed oil is good enough for your gun, head on over to the health food store and buy flaxseed oil.
Steve
BTW I'm a bit of a vitamine suppliment enthusiast and I eat a table spoon of flaxseed oil nearly every day, it has a pleasant nutty taste and doesn't leave you with fish-flavored burps like fish oil does.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/30/06 11:15 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by chopperlump:
Lads, I just picked up some of the Behlen stain in Blood Red. Applied it to a small spot on the stock (finished with True Oil and then rubbed down with rottenstone and linseed oilwith a felt pad to kill the shine) --- and it looked so good and penetrated the True Oil that I stained the whole stock of my Sarasqueta 20 gauge 4E. I am impressed! Rich, deep color that sunk in. Wiped away the excess and the gun looks great! Thanks for the tip. Sure beats making your own dragon blood. Chopper
Post a picture of it Chopper maybe we can get some pictures of the dragon blood finished guns for comparison. I'm not much on the red look myself but I am working up some witches brew with some Grumbachers.
L.F.
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/31/06 12:35 PM
I was wodnering if anyone had aged their new brews enough to start using them. If so, how do they look and which formula did you use? I ordered a lot of ingredients, but none have been delivered yet. Will start mixing as soon as they get here.

Has anyones here used ProCustom oil? I tired it on a couple of "cheap and dirty" jobs for people and actually seemed pretty good. But I have not invested the time to try a top-notch finish with it. Has anyone tried to color the oil?

Also-does anyone use the red all the way through the process, or just in the early stages, to be followed up by straight linseed (or whatever you are using)?

Also-has anyone tried the African Express Old English Stock Finishing Kit?
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 08/31/06 10:57 PM
i have wondered about the african express myself...hope somebody has tried it,and posts there results....
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/01/06 12:42 AM
salopian will japan drier help speed up drying..if so when would you apply it..does it affect the appearance at all...venetian turpentine..do you use this on your last coat mixed or ddo you use it in all coats....i have noticed in other forums{shotgunworld}and this one that this is a REALLY DEBATABLE SUBJECT....i really appreciate EVERYBODYS participation on this subject ..THANKS IN ADVANCE ....BUGSY
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/01/06 07:45 PM
Red oil is just that, a red oil.Not the finishing oil.
Apply Red oil until the colour is rich enough as you would like.Remember subsequent coats of oil may/will darken the colour you now have.
Driers are added when you are making your finishing oil normally about 5% of the total oil, sometimes measured in teaspoons and 2 teaspoons is the normal quote per pint.Venetian turpentine is also added at the brewing stage.
Incidentally I have just uncovered 2 more old recipes and both mention adding vinegar.
Keep on brewing and let us know of successes and importantly your failures.
Incidentally what do the Guilders use for their exhibition pieces?
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/02/06 10:50 AM
Salo-
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/02/06 11:09 AM
Salo-
Are the new formulas for finishing oil or red oil? Are you going to brew up a batch of each?

I know several people in the Guild and they all use a different commercial finish. Velvit Oil, Truoil, Permalyn, ProCustom Oil, and others that don't come to mind right now.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/03/06 06:11 AM
Why do so many people favour Tru-oil?

I think the answer to that is, It gives a pleasing appearance and applied correctly, to the manufacturers instructions it is easy to use.

Why do people have problems with it?

Because they apply it too thick or perhaps more likely, they are too thick.

Why do people use Pro-custom, Permalyn, & Tung oil?

Because they are looking for an alternative and perhaps have had problems with other types of oil finish.

So it is, as always left to personal preference.

I think I have posted the following comment before.

I was finishing a stock for an Italian gunmaker and we were discussing finishes, and he said that the oil finish for the American market that was applied by him as standard was Tru-oil.
'Best' quality was traditional oil finish.

I have one customer who always specifies Tru-oil and another who prefers French polish.
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/04/06 06:09 PM
So, the quest continues. I had ordered so alkanet root from a place that had a $20 minimum order. I ordered 2 pounds of root (for plenty of experimentaion) and had my wife order some herbs of some kind to make up the order. Well, the order arrived..... less the alkanet root with a note "out of stock, please reorder" . Then the sun shone. Someone posted favorable results with Behlen blood red dye AND posted where to get it. How wonderful. I saved the sight and, since I've been working alot asked my wife to order some for me. Well, apperantly, they can't ship it to canada . I do a google search to find a canadian supplier....nothin'. Not surprising since I rarely, if EVER find what I want with a google search. I can usually find 5 billion pages of worthless crap, often with NOTHING in common with the search words I enter but.... Anyway, perhaps I'm just not meant to build english guns

Cody
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/04/06 08:45 PM
Have you guys considered growing your own Alkanet?
The plant Alkana Tinctoria is a roadside weed here in the UK.You could also try Madder root which is very red and was one of the plants brought over to America by the Pilgrim fathers so they could dye cloth red.
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/04/06 09:35 PM
actually, I was just thinking about growing it over here. Saw some places on the net that sells seeds and may give it a whirl!
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/05/06 12:04 AM
marc ..would you post the sight about the seeds..i would really appreciate it...did you check the first couple of pages there was a supplier called i believe ...village spinning and weaving or something like that ...ordered root from them ..got it pretty quick....bugsy
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/05/06 12:06 AM
marc ..would you post the sight about the seeds..i would really appreciate it...did you check the first couple of pages there was a supplier called i believe ...village spinning and weaving or something like that ...ordered root from them ..got it pretty quick....bugsy
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/05/06 12:09 AM
marc sight was listed by highstrap on 7-07-06 try these folks out...bugsy
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/05/06 08:33 PM
Cody---I'm in Upstate NY and got that blood red stain in no problem. Where are you in canada? maybe i could ship you some if you don't have any luck getting it yourself.

Also, on the idea of growing our own alkanet... sounds great. Count me in, too.

I just got back from bizz trip and hope to experiment with the blood red and also the alkanet that has been steeping for another 3 weeks since my last "test". I am going to redo my old remington 870 stock this time.... I want it to look like a fine English stock... No one will ever guess it is just a plane old Remmie 870. Should be fun!
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/08/06 12:11 AM
Yogi, that's a very kind offer. I may just take you up on that. perhaps if you send me an email with name and address I can just order what I want and have it shipped to you and you could forward it and I can send a MO for the postage??

cody
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/11/06 03:04 PM
Guys---

I tried the Behlen stain in Blood Red that was recommended on this thread by someone (i will check who right after I post this).

Wow! It is terrific. It dries very very fast which allowed me to put on about 6 coats in 2 days. It has the deep rich red colour I am after...

Thanks! Great recommendation.

Now I just need to find the right shiny sealer/top coat to look like the old finishes on older Merkels. etc...

But, alas, my deep, rich, RED stain that-looks-like-older-fine-doubles quest appears to be answered! Behlen Blood Red!
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/12/06 12:18 AM
Yogi,
w00t!
(pics?)
And it was Hansli from Texas that tipped us to this good stuff.
Posted By: Dig Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/12/06 02:27 PM
Try Blackley & Son

Telephone 01502 470 047

They will put it in the post - dried and broken up root - comes up very red after 3 months in raw linseed oil.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/12/06 04:16 PM
Pictures Guys, pictures!!!

JC(AL)
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/12/06 06:39 PM
Dig,
Three months???? Remember this is an American Forum.They speak a different language which does not include the word patience.They want it NOW.
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/12/06 06:47 PM
Yeti, do you have an address for this stain you refered to ? not the alkanet but the otherone/ Ken
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/12/06 06:49 PM
Yogi How about an address for that Behlan stain ?? Yeti, sorry similar spellingof name and old guys brain F^*t. Ken
Posted By: Rockdoc Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/12/06 07:55 PM
Ken
Isn't Yogi a bear and a Yeti a semi-mythical high-altitude upright primate? How could you confuse the two .
Steve
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/12/06 08:43 PM
Ken,
Try these guys or google Behlen Solar Lux Stain http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=7234
Posted By: Ken Hurst Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/12/06 09:06 PM
Thanks Hansli, am placing order. Did I understand that this can be applied over a finish already present ? Is anyone using this stain un- thinned ? Ken
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/12/06 11:31 PM
Ken and all,
Yes to both questions. When applying over an existing finish, my attempts have been with oil type finishes vs. paint (varnish, polyurethane)type finishes. However I have had good results with penetration over Tru Oil or Permalyn modified oil.
I have never applied full strength over bare wood as I fear this would leave a mottled mess. The product is quite concentrated and thinning would be the prudent first step for bare wood. For bare wood I tint boiled linseed oil to taste and apply, the coloration is more progressive this way more akin to alkanet with a little help. At present I have an oil with both alkanet and Blood red so I won't miss the stink of the alkanet. Be aware that when using Behlen stain that is dries quite quickly.
When overlaying an existing finish I use a 1" foam brush and keep it moving so there are no drips or lap lines. Let dry and wet sand with oil and 1500 grit wet/dry or lightly steel wool with 0000. This should give you a pretty good idea of where you're at for color. I know it sounds like alot of hoopla but you really can't go too far wrong and you can tune the finish as you go.
Anyone that wants more info can PM me and I will share all I know. Let the Englishmen laugh, in the next thread we can talk about how to put cup holders on your double so you can keep your drink close at hand. It took them close to 2000 years to get where they are, we did it in a tenth the time and we're only short a few nice churches, a couple dozen castles and Shakespeare. I hope I didn't forget anything else, but I'm in a bit of a hurry.
Posted By: crossedchisles Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/13/06 01:38 AM
Gentlemen, and the 2 ladies who have visited my 'Den of antique stuff' I have watched this thread on stock colour. I have Joe Mantons notes on 'Getting the true colour from English Walnut' Iron Filings,Vinegar, and 'time'.. I've had a bottle sitting around on the bench for 'bleedin years' looks great'Purdey Red'Queen Victoria's lips'Donkey bollocks!..... It stinks worse than the NonComs Karsie in Upper Barracks,Winchester, when the whole battalion had been out on the Beer for a week! after spending hours 'Wet&drying' a finished stock, min. of 8 W&Drys. sanding thru to 600 w&d the time had come to put on the colour....Old Joe's Majic red"Wad of 'Tow" ( Now we all have read about the tradition of not using old rags),,see Des Mills book on gun repairs& 'How To" with Mike Barnes.. Carol has a couple of copies at Gunnerman Books) Tow''' Wonderfull stuff, from English Flax! Its the brown hairy stuff thats in Old leather gun cases, all manner of uses,we heard that the Old Gunmakers..Real Old Gunmakers used to take a 'Wad" with them in to the"karsie'..Yuk!!!Back to 'Stock Colour'as you spread the evil smelling liquid on to your beautifully finished stock, that you had spent at least 50hrs bringing from a block of french walnut into a Majical part of the gun that took a barreled action to a shootable shotgun,this stinking vinegar stuff not only raised the dammed grain,again.it left'blotches'I/ve never mastered the use of Vin/iron , but I;ve seen some finished stocks that had the most beautiful colour,but to keep up with the "Times"I've managed to "DUPE" all these colours with a visit to the local boot repair shop!!!(Know what I mean Vern:!)Keep up the good work,crossedchisles...
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/13/06 02:57 AM
don't be a tease, please tell us the Manton Formula!!!
You editors will produce this thread as a hardbound terra-cotta tile bronze trimmed and locked parchment volume, won't you? Or at least 100% heavy cotton and illuminated with maybe a leather binding and cover? Maybe even a bronze-edged original English walnut veneer appropriately stained with the subject material.

There are some Catholic orders of monks who actually support themselves with high end work some of which is of a scientific or medical nature. I am sure some of them can handle this task in the name of the Almighty and Doubledom.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/13/06 09:04 AM
F.S...you been sip'n from the bottle of 'Purdey Red'Queen Victoria's lips'Donkey bollocks. ?
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/13/06 12:49 PM
"I hope I didn't forget anything else, but I'm in a bit of a hurry"

"McFinish"?

I'll take a #3 with Diet Coke.

Thanks Hansli
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/13/06 05:53 PM
This is a great thread. Even the drippage is enlightening!

After I got Hansli's tip I just typed Behlen Stain in google and got a place that sold Behlen Blood Red. I notice Hansli posted a website.

Thanks again Hansli. I owe you a beer or a green tea whatever is your preference.

I do like this Behlen. Dries as fast as pure alcohol. I did use one layer of Behlen and one of my Alkanet brew... ugh... The other day I was putting my bow back up on the wall after doing some target shooting in prep for deer season and I did it in the dark and to my misfortune the tip bumped up against my canning jar of Alkanet & mineral spirits. Dropped to the garage floor and smashed to smithereens. Now all I have is Behlen Blood Red till I brew up another batch of Alkanet.

Sorry I haven't figured out HOW to post pictures here and I do not have the software.

I can't wait to redo my next stock with this Behlen Blood Red... might start stripping an old stock tonite.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/13/06 06:40 PM
Hansli,
Good comments truly appreciated.It may have taken us 2000 years of progress but now thanks to Tony Blair we are the smallest state in the USA due to his alliance with the very reverand Mr Bush. Footnote Blair is an anogram for B***** Liar which our sons and daughters are finding to their cost in Afghanistan & Iraq. The cost of Oil and Heroin have a lot to answer for.
But sod them all let's just keep wet sanding
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/13/06 07:34 PM
Salo, this globalization thing is a bit confusing, I'm pretty sure I live in small European country on the east coast of the United States.
Posted By: crossedchisles Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/14/06 12:39 AM
Talking of Stock Colour....I have at the back of my finishing bench a shelf that has many bottles&jars,there are names that you can just maks out through the layers of "Goop", in fact one says'Mantons stock Goop'It came into my collection of old"Stuff' from my 'Old Gaffer" from my years at'Irongate Wharf Road' Bill O'Brien never let anybody throw anything away!Tom Purdey knew this,as did Harry lawrence! I guess thats where I'Picked up the Habit"I even had all my "Old Stuff" shipped over to Chicago in April 1964. Bottles & Jars,Full of 'Highly Flammable,highly Toxic very Explosive(3 of mypowder-Flasks filled with 3&2'F'Black Powder!!I think the"Old Tub"that floated my "Tea-Chests" crammed with 'Highly Collectable Stuff" had survived many crossings of 'The Pond" during the"BigOne"!!!!Some of these Jars I've not managed to open,several broke when we tried to'Soften' the Goop'Holding the cap or wood plug(stopper)A couple had names of long gone Finishers from Purdeys. There are Photos of several of these'Long forgotten Craftsmen"in Don Dallas's PURDEYS 'Big Red Book",Harry Lawrence gave Myself & Brian Sorrell(Appr. to Harold Delay,Stocker who stocked 99% of all the O/U guns)Gave us the job of sorting out all the Old Stuff from the store room that had been moved to No2 Irongate from the North Row workshops 1899-1900.One of the bottles did have'Dragons Blood" written on its label!!! I used the goop after thinning it quite a lot I had restocked a Parker BHE with a blank from Flaigs,PA. it had the really deep, dark "Red'color. I managed to'Finish' 5-6 stock& forends,1 Purdey,3 Krieghoff PigeonO/U 12b.A 3 bbl Rem mod 32with 3 forends then I knocked the jar on to concrete floor,this was in Melbourne,Fla."All Gone" bye..Never did know what it was made-up with. Have made up Concoctions' since with my good friend Lou Taxiarcus,He made some oil finishes with the stain blended into the oil,very nice colour filled the 'Pores' just like a'New London Gun'Paul Hodgins,Utah,Formerly of Hollands has mastered the art of ;Hand-rubbed oil finishing.My "Bud" in Danbury Conn.See the Latest Shooting Sportsman for a Feature Story:Abe Chaber, Stockmaker, Gunsmith'Extrordinaire' His staining of stocks and oil finishing is of the 'Highest Quality'(BUT donot ask him what he uses for 'Stain'!)I have found this 'thread' very interesting, ..crossedchisles...
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/14/06 01:07 PM
I would like to agree with you Shropshireman, but dissent is now construed as treason here. It's bad enough we're talking about a red dye.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/14/06 06:48 PM
I have always said what I thought, sorry if I have offended anyone.
Back to the original thread, Yogi asked how to make Alkanet root oil.
Then we went to blood red colour and then to Behlen, which sounds good.Then Dave gave us some pearls of wisdom and his comments above made me chuckle.X Chisels do us war babes never throw anything away? It's the rationing that causes it you know.Well I've got gallons of the stuff, litres, pints, gills, quarts, bloody hell if I had a fire I would double global warming overnight.I have used Coloron and Blackfriars stains and they work very well,Ronnie Rustin knows his stuff, but one of the best for colour I used is Punch shoe leather dye.As for how long stains last and work? I have got a gallon of (make not known) mahogany red dated 1964 and used it on Monday September 11th 2006, wood looked pleasing this morning.
Posted By: SDH Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/14/06 06:49 PM
Is this red enough?


Behlen's American walnut stain, Daly's marine finishes, lots of work.
SDH
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/14/06 07:05 PM
Quote:
I have always said what I thought, sorry if I have offended anyone.
You're okay with me, friend, and the knowledge you bring to the board is very much appreciated. That goes for the other English guys as well. I think I need a Crossed Chisels Lexicon, though. Are they in print anywhere?
Posted By: crossedchisles Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/15/06 03:30 AM
NICE PHOTOGRAPH SDH! Is it Digital or 35mm print? Nice balance with your lighting also.Is the Iron work Italian and your Stocking??? I have a Client from France who is Shure eet ees a French built shotgun' That is a nice London Red'you've made the 'Wood'...dt.
Posted By: crossedchisles Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/15/06 05:04 AM
Salopian,I went back to 8/26,Glad to hear that Reg Wallin is well. For the Gent from Anchorage,AK. Yes it was Reg and his late partner Bob Wallin that Re-built both the'Bastardized' Sidlocks on the Purdey I re-stocked for you.WHAAT...1991..Naah me ole cocker,aint that bledin long errgo....Ken Hunt add airr back then!!!Wonder if anyone on this G/S/site Remembers Nubs Fashingbauer,Lac Du Flambau, Wisconsin(Scuse Spellin of Indian Names) Nubs was a Top Notch' Stocker.I worked on several 'Jobs' with him 1967-70.He gave me a little jar of 'RED STUFF"to put into my 'Stock-oil'Really did the 'Trick',so much so I took some back to my Alma Mater on South Audley Street and Harry Lawrence mixed it into some linseed oil, and 'Yes' it was a perfect match to the Alkanet Root colour! Nuff Said!!!!Didnot know just what the 'RedStuff' was till my Friend Lou T. who was reading this thread on alkanet this AM. said the small container he gave me some time ago was OIL RED'O'. A dye used to colour Gasoline in the Military, Years ago!!!And thats whats in the Fahingbauer jar!Deadly stuff to get on the Skin, stays for days..weeks!Looks great on Walnut..I restocked a Shoulder-Stock for a Colt Navy 1851 years ago, Matched the original colt grips colour 100% Since saw the 'All Original Set'go under the scrutiny of a panel of 'Experts' prior to a change of ownership...I dont think any eyebrows were raised at all!!..I was led to belive by a Antique's Expert(now polishing granite from the under-side in a London cemetery)He had done his time as finisher at a couple of the Named Gunmakers' that Both John& Joe Manton used the Filings from old railway'Rails'left in Vinegar for a great period,being agitated often,(Friday was 'Cod& 6 pennyworth day) and after 3 pints of "Best",I'm sure some of the contents from the Jar got sprinkeled over the Cod & Chips!!Xchisel.
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/15/06 01:51 PM
xchisels, while I'm only able to cypher part of your post (I'm fuctionally illiterate), I did see, as in a previous post of yours, referance to the Mantons useing vinegar stain. I find this quite interesting. My understanding is that vinegar stain uses the same basic concept as aquafortis (nitric acid) to color wood. That being, iron is disolved in the acid making the liquid laden with iron molecules. These molecules are carried into the wood with the liquid, the liquid evaporates out leaving the iron in the wood and when the wood is heated, the iron molecules oxidize turning them reddish brown. The only real difference between useing vinegar and nitric is that vinegar is weaker/safer but takes a long time to disolve the iron. Now, the reason I find the refference to the Mantons puzzleing is that aquafortis and vinigar stain are used for maple and not on walnut as the stain will react with the tannin in walnut and turn it black. So, either I'm missing something here (Likely), or the mantons stocked enough guns in maple to warrent mention of the stain they used. OTOH, vinegar is a weaker stain than AF and perhaps it doesn't react to the tannin in walnut as vigorously as AF would and hence the reason for useing vinegar rather than AF in the first place. Hmmmm.

Cody
Posted By: ArnoldB Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/15/06 06:19 PM
The madder root is a pain to get the colour out off though as you need to boil and do other things to it to get colour out off it and in the end it's water stain.No matter how long you leave it in spirits the colour won't come out off it.
The one I've not seen mentioned yet is cochineal the beetle. That gives a very nice red though in my experience. I've only used the food colouring stuff that you buy in the supermarket, yes contains water but mix it in with meths 1/5 ratio.
Posted By: SDH Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/15/06 07:43 PM
Thanks David, the photo is digital, I have a studio set-up in my workshop.
The gun is from original Belgian Britte metalwork made in the 1930's so it is almost French. I imported a few unfinished 12ga. brld action several years ago. This was the gun shown in the arcaded fences column in SSM. There has been a lot of metalwork involved as well as stocking. The engraving is by Larry Peters of WA.
BTW, I'm very familiar with Fashingbauers work, mostly through photos in books. He was quite an artisan who seemed to enjoy single shots.

A pic of the freshly chiseled fences.
SDH
If I recall the cochineal beetle is likley to be found somewhere in Latin America (and regardless of locale of origin) would be an ancient ingredient for fabric use. And therefore the original application would be water based. I may also be thinking of the lac bug. A net search would settle the issue.

It might be possible to import raw materials in some ground and purified consumer-safe form. Or perhaps the Real Thing may be obtained en situ and brought back. Check the fiber and fabric freak sub-culture which usually does a lot of rug and rope work. The Chicago Art Institute would be a source for printed info as would the library.

Fabric and wood dyes are the same thing. My issue is to get a proper walnut underbark concoction for use on my old muskets and maybe even a Catalan style stock I want to fit to a shotgun. This would have an appropriate black finish and be decorated like a caucasian harlot with appropriate inlays of mammoth, ivory, bone, shell, brass, etc, plus red coral and whatever else is in my bins.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/16/06 06:09 AM
You can normally find what you want by researching the fabric, dyes, paints and ink,industries.But frankly you will find Old Codgers like Crossed Chisels & Ken Hurst have done it or know someone who has or can do it.
Me ? I'm far too young and still learning
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/16/06 02:57 PM
Someone should undertake the task of editing this great thread!

Thought I'd share this "before & after" with you lot:




Phots not very "pro" but enough to give you an idea.

JC(AL)

P.S.: Yogi, you can email me pictures and I can post for you. JC
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/16/06 03:20 PM
Jaycee, is that after staining with Behlens blood red through the original finish, or after finish was striped and then stained with alkanet and refinished or exactly what was done?. Whatever you did it looks very nice BTW. Well done.

Cody
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/16/06 03:27 PM
Cody, sorry, neither.

Stripped and re-done using a mixture of water soluble dyes and linseed oil.
Can't wait to get my hands on some Behlens Blood Red though!

JC(AL)
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/16/06 03:38 PM
JAYCEE WENT FROM NICE HO-HUM TO BEAUTIFUL CLASSY LOOK...I LIKE...WELL DONE...
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/16/06 10:38 PM
Thank you Bugsy.

JC(AL)
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/17/06 12:59 AM
JC, Excellent job! The gun's appearance is much warmer with the refinish; If I saw the original in your gun rack I'd appreciate the engraving, 2 barrel sets and 3 piece forends, but I'd want to pick up and swing the final version.

(keep that old pad...in 25 years we'll be putting 'em back on )
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/17/06 04:34 AM
Jaycee, I can appreciate the gun both before and after, but notice how the fancy back inletting to the action stands out and catches the eye more with the darker finish? For my personal taste that gun will look fabulous if you were to build up the finish on it and bring out the richness that appears to be sitting there, shouting out to be released. Well done.
Perhaps a violin finish would be the answer?
The new buttpad changes a lot as well - consider that to be a color/texture point for development. I would also go with additional finish, darker, and relatively glossier or having more semi-sheen. On my screen it looks a bit anemic as if the job were yet to be completed.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/17/06 05:54 PM
F.S., totally agree, the job is yet to be properly completed.

All guidance will be dearly appreciated!

Ingredients aren't that assorted (Minwax Tung Oil, boiled(?) linseed oil, Minwax Stains (Walnut, Mahogany), French polish, red and black shoe stains (water soluble).

JC(AL)
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/17/06 07:08 PM
Jaycee,
Is that a list of what you used? Or are you asking for directions?
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/17/06 08:37 PM
Salopian, its a list of what I have at hand.

I am asking for directions,

JC(AL)
So here is the story on madder dye. I tried assorted net searches and got nowhere as regards local suppliers. This info came from a supplier whose upload inquiry form I was unable to complete for some odd reason. If you think you are going to find "madder sellers" in a net searcdh, don't. Unless, of course, there is time to do a lot of weird reading on yarns, dye history, etc. Ebay had not the dye so much as dyed yarns. Anyway:

"...the root contains rubian, rubiadin, ruberythric acid, purpurin, tannin, sugar and especially alizarin. Pseudopurpurin yields the orange dye and xanthopurpurin the yellow. The astringent taste, slight color and red color, are imparted to water or alcohol.

The most interesting of the coloring substances is the alizarin, and this is now termed dihydroscyanthraquinone. This occurs as orange-red crystals , almost insoluble in water, but readily soluble in alcohol, ether, the fixed oils and alkaline solutions. The alcoholic and aqueous solutions are rose-colored, the ethereal, golden-yellow, the alkaline, violet and blue when concentrated, but violet red when sufficiently diluted. A beautiful rose-colored lake is produced by precipitating a mixture of the solutions of alizarin and alum.

Alazarin was recognized by Graebe and Liebermann, in 1868, as a derivative of anthracene - a hydrocarbon contained in coal tar, and in the same way they elaborated a method for preparing it commercially from anthracene. Upon this arose rapidly a great chemical industry, and the cultivation of madder has, of course, decreased correspondingly until it may be said the coal tar products have entirely displaced the natural ones"

Note that alcohol, oils of an unspecified type, ether or alkaline solutions dissolve alizarin (also known as dihydrocyanthraquinone) which are the red-orange crystals and make them useable for dye purposes in that color range.

I don't know what they mean by alkaline solutions but this might be something from the process of leaching ashes to produce soap ingredients. This is basically lye. Though oils of whatever type in the 19th century are likely to be determined by reading about gunstocks, the readily available solution for alizarin is likely thinned lye. If "alcohol" means the stuff one could drink no proper Englishman would use it for that purpose unless for a special client who would be told of the use of his favorite gin in the mysterious mix.

The main issue is to find madder. A large art school or university or an art museum with classes is likely your best bet as the net offers confusion. This is not exactly a common bulk home maintenence product.
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/18/06 12:00 PM
"well naturally" in British Columbia has a lot of madder's root. If you order today Mary will ship to you by the end of the week here in US.

I read on this post the other day that madder's root would not disolve spirit-based solvents or oil without heat, only water. I have 4 different types of alkanet root oil mixed up and aging roght now. I mixed another batch and substituted madder's root powder for the alkanet root. The color is much different than the alkanet and has an orange tint to it. It also never completely dissolves and the solids settle out even with a lot of agitation. It looks kinda like the water that separates off of ketchup.

I am going to mix up some in water and see how it looks. I don't want a water-based stain, but I do want to see what color I can get.
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/18/06 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Marc Stokeld:
[QB] "well naturally" in British Columbia has a lot of madder's root. If you order today Mary will ship to you by the end of the week here in US
Kinda been there done that. I tried to order alkanet root from "well naturally". They wouldn't take phone orders and told me I had to order online. So I went online and found they have a $20 minimum order. I got my wife to go through all the other stuff they have to see if she could find something of use to bring the order to $20. She found a few things she thought she might be able to use and the order was placed. A week or so later the package arrived, less the alkanet root with a note stating "re-order". So now I have, with shipping, about $20 worth of weeds that we didn't really want and no alkanet which was really all we wanted. In hindsight I should have just ordered enough alkanet to make the minimum order and then I would either get lots and give the surplus to someone else to make stain or I would have got nothing and would have cost me nothing.

Cody
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/18/06 02:16 PM
I would call her and tell her what happened and then ask her to sell and ship you just madder's root, as you already made an order over $20 and did not get what you need. I spoke to her twice and she was very helpful with everything. Wouldn't hurt to try
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/20/06 07:43 PM
I had an enquiry today that got me thinking.How many of you boil your ingredients all together and how many boil the oil and then add the thinners?
Also what percentage of driers have you / do you use?
Finally you do have to leave the root in the oil to get best results and wait a month or two.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/20/06 10:31 PM
I heated it all together, but never to the boiling point. I never considered adding anything later as an option thinking homogenized mix with the heat would be better.
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/21/06 01:59 AM
I heated everything together. Still letting my mixtures "age" and will try them out soon.

I have prepared several pieces of English walnut from the same blank and will compare the colors of the different mixtures. When I get a little more time, I will prepare other test pieces from different English blanks and see how they handle the colored oil.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/21/06 03:18 PM
I have been experiencing long drying times with the salopian finish, upwards of two days per rub in. Temp between 73-95 degrees F and humidity from 28-54%...pretty good conditions. I added some Japan dryer and am now getting dry coats in 12 hours, but am waiting 24 to recoat so all this work doesn't go up the spout. I remember dig or salopian referring to lead based dryers being used in the past. Japan dryer used to have lead 30 or so years ago before lead was banned in paint. 15 coats on two Merkels, looks like at least another 15 to get that damn grain filled. So far the results are worth the effort to me.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/21/06 05:10 PM
I have been playing with the Behlen's blood red and a finish layer on a wooden box before I redo a gun stock with whatever approach I like.

I did about 7 applications of the Blood Red. I had previously filled the grain with mahogony stain and several wet sands.

After the Blood Red it looked so good. Next and so far I am TWO applications of straight linseed oil hand rubbed into the project. I am certainly planning on doing more applications of the oil. I put the box in very warm area to accelerate the drying although I did just use a tiny amount and really hand rub it in. And, before I put on the next layer I wanted it "dry" before I applied any more.

It is looking truly beautiful. My girlfriend saw it last night and said, 'Wow. It doesn't look at all like the box that it was before this re-finish; it looks fantastic!'

I want a nice shine, glossy, on it when I'm finished. Any ideas of waxes? or Polishes? What about beeswax? What about something crazy like Turtle Wax car polish?

I am receptive to experimenting...

As high a gloss oil finish as I can get.... ya know?

Does a buffing wheel work or should I stay with hand rub soft cloth with the grain?
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/21/06 05:41 PM
I don't know a way to make the oil glossy, oils tend to be muted. The oil finish I'm using now has a low lustre attributed to the Venice turpentine as per salopian. It may sound like apostasy but you might try a topcoat of Tru oil cut with linseed. The linseed will retard the Tru oil's quick set time and it will give that gloss you're after. I've cut it with lacquer thinner 50/50 to kill the gloss. It remained shiny but went on beautifully. A failure for what I was after, maybe a success for you Yogi.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/21/06 07:06 PM
Hansli maybe I read your post wrong...

"15 coats on two Merkels, looks like at least another 15 to get that damn grain filled"

Finish alone won't fill the grain.
L.F.
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/21/06 11:23 PM
Yogi,
I use a pure carnuba wax to jack up the gloss on an oil based finish. I use the stuff from R Gale Lock Co but any pure carnuba will do. The modern car finishes might have stuff that can penetrate the oil finish, like silicones and solvents.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/22/06 12:50 AM
You read it right. What do you use besides the sand and slurry method? I'm dying for an unobtrusive filler and will accept any suggestions with gratitude.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/22/06 01:22 AM
Hansli to my little bit of knowledge there is no other way but to sand and slurry to fill the grain.
If you do get the poors filled by finish alone you will have a poor finish.
L.F.
Posted By: Glenn Fewless Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/22/06 04:22 AM
Mr. Yeti:

What is your techinique for applying the Carnuba? That stuff is so hard it is brittle. I'll bet it would give a heck of a durable shine.

Glenn
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/22/06 02:24 PM
From what I've gleaned from this and other finishing threads and my own woodworking experience, you can fill grain with various fillers, use a sand and slurry method, or build up and then level the finish itself (sure works great on checkering if you're not careful). I believe the last method was mentioned by a contributor recently and I have used it on furniture and cabinetry with higher build finishes. So far it is working although time consuming as this is a slow build finish. Sand and slurry fills I've done in the past (to 1500 grit)have not completely filled the grain and what they have filled is dark and pocky looking. When a contributor notes that a particular method is ineffective or wrong, I'd like to know why and have him offer a better plan to remediate the problem. HomelessjOe, I appreciate your observations, but they offer nothing in the way of fresh knowledge or real help. Someone else maybe want to offer some real guidance if it is indeed necessary?
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/22/06 04:29 PM
Glenn, the wax I bought from brownells is called liquid but the consistency is about like peanut butter...and it's not pure according to the label LINK
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/22/06 04:40 PM
The knowledge was posted pages back. Like I said filling the grain with finish alone will give a poor finish at best.
L.F.
Posted By: M.Harney Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/22/06 05:35 PM
Joe,

I simply can't agree with that statement. I've seen many and own several doubles with incredible finishs done by a local smith who uses nothing but a linseed oil based elixer, Period. The finishes on these and many fine doubles are only "Finish" and are truely exceptional. That said it does take a heap of time to complete such a finish.

Cheers,
Michael
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/22/06 06:11 PM
Quote:
The knowledge was posted pages back. Like I said filling the grain with finish alone will give a poor finish at best.
A poor argument. I'll just stay the course with info like that.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/23/06 06:36 AM
I posted earlier that plaster of paris is used as a filler, mixed in with your oil recipe.Also many makers have used spar varnish as a filler but always sand back to bare wood after application, before next coat.
Polish, melt your carnuaba wax and dilute with white spirit until it has the consistency of butter when cold. Remember an application of wax will prevent penetration of further coats of oil.
To polish or buff up for a finish you should use a rubbing block wrapped in lint free cloth (old tee shirt cotton)if you just use oil on your fingers you will be rubbing until you wear down to the elbows.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/23/06 03:57 PM
That's the ticket. Thanks for wading in.
The American address of Well Naturally is Box 5204, Blaine Washington 98231. Ground madder from Morocco (?) is $15.50/lb plus $3.50 postage to Chicago. Their site is a bit hard to figure out if searching for the product as it is hidden under "herbs". You can get into a "Who's on First" routine if you're not careful in making inquiries about it.

I'll get some for eventual use though in the meantime with my stash I can pretend to be knowledgeable in the premises and thus be right in there with the experienced double men. I should also look up the recent Edwardian thread and buy all the baize with in colors and materials thus becoming a Baize MadderMaster. With a couple buttplate screws from Galazan I will be right in there in the esoteric hardware department as well.

On the other hand with one of my vehicles now being worked on and relicensed I should be able to get out to the ranges and do some productive shooting. Big improvement in anyonje's book over collecting inventory.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/24/06 06:14 AM
This thread started with how to obtain a Reddish finish to the woodwork.I think it has been very well received and a lot of good stuff is contained within these pages.
For those of you interested in colour, Roy Dunlap gives some information in his book Gunsmithing.Leather dye is also a usefull source, for the traditionalist, alchemist, we have the natural cloth dye technology,Madder, Alkanet,Iron filings/Nails.Another good donor is Onion skins,you would be amazed how brown a colour you can get.
Oil finish, here is the original Joe Manton oil recipe as recommended by Col. Sir Peter Hawker listed in his book Instructions to Young Sportsmen.
Recipe for keeping the polish on Gunstocks.
Cold drawn linseed oil 1 quart
Gum Arabic (dissolved in warm water) 1/2 ounce
Alkanet root 2 ounces
Rose pink 1/2 ounce
Vinegar 1/2 pint
Boil these together and then let stand for 1 or 2 days. It should then be fit for use.

To apply it, rub a small quantity into the wood, let it stand for a day then rub it off clean.With a few such dressings, you will bring out a superior polish.
Hawker also mentions 'if considered too troublesome to apply to gunstocks, it may still be worth applying to tables, or any kind of furniture'
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/24/06 05:09 PM
Salopian, what is rose pink? Update on the fill advice, used some plaster of Paris I had around and it is indeed a good filler. It's been awhile since I've redone a stock and I completely forgot that when near completion, the rottenstone from a rottenstone and oil polish will take care of all small voids. It is finer than plaster but also darker. The fill is always darker than the wood so I'll live with it. Thanks.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/24/06 06:37 PM
Rose Pink, = whiting mixed with Brazil Logwood a orangey / red colourant.
Modern alternative would be a reddened Plaster of Paris.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/25/06 05:29 PM
Thanks for the Carnuba wax recommendation to get the max shine out of my oil finish.

I still have some alkanet root left over (dropped my XXX Jar of mineral spirits and alkanet root). Thus, for my next batch, I plan on mixing the alkanet root in alcohol (as someone here pointed out as a superior method).

So my next gun stock project will most likely have the following steps:

1) Grain filler/wet sand
2) Multiple layers of Behlen Blood Red
3) Alteranting layers of Alkanet Root in alcohol
4) Multiple layers of hand rubbed in Linseed Oil (most likely, although I may experiment here, too)
4A) Possible 50/50 mixture of tru oil and mineral spirits
5) Carnuba wax - polish polish polish

(Note: I may add some varnish to the linseed oil.)

Thanks for all the good recommendations so far. There is really good info here. For those who appreciate reddish stocks, this thread is very valuable.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/25/06 07:12 PM
Yogi,
You are, I hope joking? If so you have not mentioned using the Chrysler Corporation Electrolytic Chrome deposition.
In my experience this gives a high gloss, mirror like finish, but a little too flash for me.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/25/06 11:43 PM
Yogi,
Take it easy on the red stuff. Mix with oil for your primary applications or any soft spots in the wood will drink that red up like a sailor that just hit port. It will be very difficult to reverse. If after several tinted oil rubs you feel more red is needed you may apply a red wash over. The oil wil not prevent additional coloration but wiil moderate it. I think that's it for now.
Posted By: Dig Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/26/06 08:36 AM
I was swapping notes with acouple of London trained finishers last week and mentioned to one that in the past I have sometimes finsished stocks after filling the grain prior to putting on the oil finish and that sometimes i have not bothered with the initial grain filler but had better results without it.

His reaction was interesting - "Good - so you learned that". He went on to say that when rubbing off the oil with a cloth between coats, because you have to rub hard, a lot of normal grain fillers will be lifted out anyway.

You can fill the grain with oil finish if you are careful to build up very thin coats, alow plenty of drying time and cut back the finish with fine wire wool from time to time. Rotten stone palmed in when the finish is nearing an end result will help.

I find I get better colour from alkanet root steeped in raw linseed for several months - rather than using it in alcohol or turpentine, which dilutes it too much in my experience.

The finish I am using at the moment with best results is with turpentine rather than terebine as a drier and raw rather than boiled linseed oil. I have two other batches a waiting a trial and Salopian has another I made - I'll be interested in the results of that one.

A friend has a field full of bee hives - I have asked her for some pure bees' wax in blocks to try in a recipe for finishing oil.

All good fun.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/26/06 11:06 AM
Dig would you agree that each piece of wood is an individual and has to be treated as such when it comes to grain filling.
Posted By: Dig Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/27/06 07:52 AM
Most certainly.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 09/29/06 03:12 PM
Yes, I appreciate the warnings about too much red stuff and the benefit of oil and stain/dye mixed for initial applications. I effectively did that by accident on purpose with my last project and got---for me---a beautiful end result. I say accident on purpose because I redid the wood so many times and experimented along the way, thus, in hindsight, actually did the stain/oil mixture.

I have an old steven's favorite that my father had found buried in the foundation of our garage. It looked like a rusted rod when he dug it up. I redid the thing years ago (the first time when I was 14 right after he passed away). I will never ever sell the gun and it's collector value has long since been destroyed. But the grain of the wood is SO coarse and it has some gouges from being knocked around for 30 years. I opened my gun cabinet the other night and said----hmmmmm, I think when I redo the 870 stock I am going to redo this one, too. Filling the VERY coarse grain is a major ietm and I agree with what the others said that in the process of staining and sometimes sanding between layers the result is a filling of the open coarse grain. I intend to find out moe about this since this stock will verify the procedures... As some of you may have guessed I do plan on going with Behlen Blood Red and Alkanet in solvent on these stocks... with oil blended in(!) ...And, indeed, I will try NOT to go too red. But I guarantee they will NOT be dark brown
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/01/06 12:36 PM
For UK residents.
Just done a stock with Blackfriars Spanish Mahogany wood stain it turned out very nice.
Posted By: Michael Petrov Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/01/06 08:46 PM
While looking for something else I ran across this and thought you might find it interesting. If it’s too small to read, email me and I’ll send you the file.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/mjpetrov/t3.jpg
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/08/06 02:07 PM
I have had a number of enquiries about the strength of Alkanet oil.
I have had no problems with 4oz of root soaking in 1 pint of oil.
Longer you leave it the better it gets, shake it about once a week.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/08/06 07:37 PM
Michael, I have been experimenting with shellac and would appreciate the file.

JC(AL)
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/08/06 08:18 PM
Salopian, was just looking at James V. Howe's "The Modern Gunsmith" and amongst the formulas he mentions, he mentions this one:

"Formula Nº6

1 pint boiled linseed oil
200 grains gum arabic (dissolved in alcohol)
1 oz. alkanet root
200 grains rose pink
150 cc. vinegar
Heat together for one-half hour, but do not allow the mixture to come to the boiling point; just let it simmer gently. To apply this polish, rub a small quantity on the stock, and let remain for ten hours; then rub it clean with linen cloth. With a few such applications you will bring out a very superior finish."

One can only guess where he got it from,

JC(AL)
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/13/06 12:24 AM
So, thanks to the yogi000's kindness and tenacity, I finally laid my hands on some behlans blood red. I stained my dads walnut stocked fowler that I put together for him a year ago and never did stain. For those wondering what blood red does for walnut, here's a few pics. Two applications over a true oil finish.



Cody
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/13/06 05:34 PM
Cody----Very nice! And over True Oil. Wow. That stuff is amazing.

And you are very welcome. Glad I could help out.
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/14/06 03:22 AM
Yogi, is this similar to the color you are getting?

Cody
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/14/06 08:08 AM
Cody,
Would it be correct to say that your photo's show the finish obtained by 2 coats of Behlan's blood red and then a Tru-oil coat? Surely not Behlans over Tru-oil?
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/15/06 12:33 AM
Salopian, here's the whole story. The gun was made a year ago. No stain applied and finished with true oil. I was told somewhere in this thread that it would stain right through true oil so......... I got the behlans, applied the stain to the stock as is, allowed the stain to dry then applied another coat. I DID give the stock the thinnest coat of TO afterwards. Then when that was dry, I waxed it with rennessance? wax. Then took a picture. I think I would have preffered just a hint darker and it DID come out a bit darker on the raw walnut I sorta practiced on. What are your thoughts on the colour??

Cody
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/15/06 08:08 AM
Cody,
I have to say that the photo's are quite pleasing to the eye.I think the tone of red suits that particular application, perhaps a little loud for a nice SxS for my taste, but I could be pleasantly surprised.
Surprised the Behlans penetrated the Tru-oil which only goes to show that if you do not try you will never know, which is perhaps what this thread is all about,trial & error.
Perhaps the joy of the success of the staining may only be surpassed by shooting the little beasty
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/15/06 03:41 PM
this thread has really been inspiring....i have a question....is madder root a truer color of red? the reason i ask is that i stained my stock with alkanet root and it took on somewhat of a reddish/violet color...i am going to try the behlens red but i would prefer to use a natural color....thanks bugsy
Posted By: Cody Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/15/06 03:52 PM
Quote:
perhaps a little loud for a nice SxS for my taste, [/QB]
It seems a bit "pinkish" rather than the deep blood red I am after. However, the wood I did a test on was english and the colour was darker. I think perhaps, the lighter "pinkinsh" colour may be due to staining over the finish. I'm doing a few more trials and will post the results. I have to keep my trials to a minimum as it was somewhat difficult to get this stuff into Canada, right Yogi . It may have been easier to import weapons grade plutonium packed in heroin but I doubt either one of those would make a suitable stock stain


Cody
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/15/06 04:04 PM
bugsy,
Sometimes alkanet will give other than red undertones such as but not limited to violet, yellow, brown. Once you start applying an oil finish, these will mute and blend, but not always to the red you may desire...depends on the wood. If you look at pictures of old guns, you'll see a range of color. Modern English/Scots as well will show variations on the theme (McKay/Brown comes to mind) Start applying your finish and see how it shakes out, you can always put a blood red wash over it and rub that out to taste.

To answer salopian and cody: any of the Behlen products will penetrate oil type finishes including Tru Oil, Permalyn and the like (not urethanes or varnishes). The penetration will not be 100% and subsequent rubbed oil will remove some of the surface pigment. In cody's case the Tru Oil may have some surface pigment suspended in it. If it is too red you can apply a lttle of the other behlen colors to tune it to your satisfaction. I have local access to the entire Behlen palatte and if anyone needs me to shop for them, drop me a line and I will be happy to help. BTW new 426 stock is coming along nicely and I will post some 'so far, so good' pictures tomorrow a.m. (it's wet now). Good luck y'all.
Posted By: Marc Stokeld Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/15/06 08:54 PM
Bugsy-
I tried I think 4 different formulas with Madder root and never could get one to truly take the color. And the color it did give me was what I would call a shade of orange, not a true red color.

Alkanet on the other hand works fine every time.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/16/06 07:48 PM
Cody-- Regarding taking "the pink out"... My experimenting with Behlen's Blood Red by itself and with a bit of mahogony stain was if it was not red or deep enough i just applied more. I also did a project with Behlen Blood Red but because I wanted it DARKER I first put on a couple of layers of Mahogony Stain with very light sanding in between.

The result: Not pink. Nice and deep; a dark rich red. Thus far I like about 7 layers of the Behlen Blood Red with 2 mahogony stain layers under it. Then 3 layers of Linseed Oil and then high gloss Wax. Buffed up. (Note the Behlen dries within minutes so several layers is NOT as time consumming or labor intensive sounding as several layers of other materials.)
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/05/06 04:30 AM
just a bump....
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/05/06 04:30 AM
just a bump....
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/05/06 11:18 AM
Yogi and Hansli, how about some pictures?

I received some Behlen's Blood Red and I would benefit from your experimenting, as similarly to Cody, it is not as if I can run to the corner hardware store to get more.

BTW I also got some Danish Oil; couldn't find Minwax Antique Oil online.

If help is needed in posting photos, email them to me.

JC(AL)
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/06/06 10:49 PM
JC & co.,
Here are some thumnails(double click for larger picture,then click photo at imageshack for an enlargement... saves Dave some bandwith I think) of a stock that is nearing completion. The wood is Turkish walnut and has been oil sanded with boiled linseed oil with a strong 50/50 blend of tincture of alkanet and Behlen blood red. The 20+ topcoats are salopian's English oil finish. Not as red as I expected but quite pleasing to me nonetheless. The stock is for a 1965 Beretta 426.


[url=]imageshack[/url]
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/07/06 02:44 AM
hansli...nice job...what would you do different to get the more reddish tint that you are looking for?....were you pleased with the salopian finish and did it dry out well to the touch...looking forward to hearing from you....bugsy
Posted By: tudorturtle Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/07/06 01:30 PM
Hansli,
That is beautiful! The coloring looks like the older Winchester/Browning style red-brown. Really fine work, and the shape design is perfect for a rounded frame SxS.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/07/06 02:16 PM
bugsy,
Re: More red:
Perhaps a wash with alkanet tincture(not blood red...too concentrated) prior to oiling but then again, maybe not. I think it relies strongly on the nature of the wood and how it reacts to the finish. This piece is turkish with a yellow brown undercast and it has several other shades in the finish not captured by the photo. As mentioned in a previous post, I've had alkanet bring out yellows and purples in other stocks. I have not used it on english walnut, which is the choice of many gunmakers. I suspect english might reveal more of the red than what I show. Doesn't matter to me, each project is one of a kind and I like what I turn out...mostly.
The salopian finish has far more richness than oil alone. It dries slowly and I use a drying box on cool or humid days although open air is my preferred means for drying. You can generally recoat in 24 hrs. but sometimes it needs 36. I have added about 1/2 oz. of japan drier to a qt. of finish and I think it helps a little. Every application builds on the one before, don't get in a hurry. The luster and depth are gratifying and I've never liked the 'top finishes" despite any acclaims I've heard. Have used Permalyn and Tru Oil(too glossy and unworkable) and always ended up stripping or masking them with oil finishes. Now I use them as end grain sealer only.To each his own I guess. Good luck to you on your project. I'll be starting a 1953 Zoli Vulcano sidelock in a couple of weeks and will post that when it gets further along.
Yeti, I've seen your work and it is top notch, thanks for the compliment.
Posted By: outdoorlvr Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/11/06 05:31 PM
Everybody - great, great thread! Hansli - great, great job on the Berreta 426!

Hansli, I would appreciate it very much if you would describe the exact components, proportions and timing considerations of the "Salipian Finish" you used on the 426. I frankly cannot find the finish described in its entirety within the thread and want as rock solid a reference as possible so I can go about assembling my own batch. If you have suggestions on more modern, or "in-use" names for some of the substances that may be included, that would help a lot, too.

On a different note and, granted, not much work with Bethlen's products has been carried out yet, would you speculate on whether Bethen's Blood Red could be considered a substitute or replacement for Alkanet Root, or whether there are unique properties to each, making for each a a clear-cut niche? (I understand the advantage of Bethlen's analine die and its proprietary carrier penetrating Tru-Oil, etc.)

Next, what advantage did you see in applying two treatments of mehogany first, before applying Blood Red? If you were to come up to this step again, would you consider mixing mahogany and Blood Red together and then simply applying the mix until you achieved your sought color?

Last, how are you going to approach coloring newly cut checkering panels?

Would very much appreciate your help.
Posted By: outdoorlvr Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/11/06 05:50 PM
Have a question regarding stock preparation prior to finishing work. Dig, Salopian, Yeti, Yogi, Hansli and all others, how do you approach cleaning old oil stains up before getting on with the finishing? Do you use acetone bathws? Do any of you use some form of sealer on the cleaned wood before starting the finishing process - - this sealer's (eg. cut shellac), purpose being to block the future intrusion of oil again into the wood?
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/12/06 08:23 AM
I use acetone to cleanse the wood and whitening to 'blot' up the oil.I seal inside the stock and the inletting with spar varnish.
But I think the most important thing to do to get a good finish is to fill the wood pores with you finishing medium/sanding slurry.Once this is done apply your oil a LITTLE but OFTEN.
DO NOT flood the surface with finish and let it sit until it is a gooey mess.No matter how many times I tell people not to do it, they still do.You only need a spot of oil as big as your thumb nail for each side of the stock and then spread it and rub it in.If your thumb nail is as big as a shovel wipe off the excess with paper towel and then burnish the remainder in.Set the stock aside in a warm climate for a day, then re-do.When you feel it is finished, apply a slurry of oil & rottenstone and polish to a finish.Then put it in the gun cabinet and never take it out to shoot because it will be too nice to mark.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/12/06 04:52 PM
1.Salopian's recipe:

16 0z. Boiled Linseed Oil
2 oz. best turpentine or (best you can find)
200 grains carnauba wax (I used flakes)
2 teaspoons of Venice Turpentine. This is available from horse/farrier's supply [url=http://www.farnamhorse.com/100174.html][/url]

Simmer ingredients for 30 minute over low heat. I filter mine through a nylon stocking to remove the carnauba grit.

2. For Alkanet tincture, I soak 4 oz powdered alkanet root (grind it in a blender) and add 12 oz grain alchohol (190 proof). I pour everything in an empty plastic bottle (soda or gatorade) and let stand in the sun for a day or two. Filter and you've got alkanet stain. Let most of the alchohol evaporate and add the concentrate to linseed oil and you have a nice alkanet oil. I prefer the alkanettincture to the blood red but only a little.I use blood red to fortify it or as a wash over the oil coats later, I think the alkanet give a more natural red as a start. You'll have to play around with it but you can't screw anything up too badly so don't worry.

3. Checkering is stained by priming with a coat of linseed. Let dry. Then some color to taste. Use a toothbrush and wipe with a piece of terry cloth between apps.

4. Observe whatever advice Salopian gives especially about finish application. This finish reqire rubbing out with a soft cotton cloth, tedious but it gives the depth and luster you seek.

5. For end grain seal I use polyurethane, tru oil or any stuff I have laying around that keeps water out. If it's raining(rare), I take my 870 and leave the good stuff home.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/12/06 08:02 PM
Salopian, have been working on grain filling with linseed oil and it doesn't seem to work. What grit of sand paper should I use to obtain a "good slurry"? I am now using 280. Is this too fine?

I know it is a basic question, but...

JC(AL)
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/13/06 07:09 AM
Jaycee,
I use 400 grit to sand, but you may well have a very open pored piece of wood.
You could seal the wood using sanding sealer or spar varnish.Which is what I would do if time is of the essence.
You could also sand using oil and whiting (plaster of paris) but beware of using any fillers, they can cause more problems than they cure.Once you have achieved your closed grain proceed upto 600 or 800 grit wet & dry (silicon carbide paper).
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/13/06 10:33 AM
Salopian, thank you.

Time is not of the essence, so I'll change to 400 grit and keep at it.

JC(AL)
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/16/06 07:05 PM
I have been having fUn: I have been playing with the Behlen Blood Red and really like it. To my eye I prefer to fill the wood and get a dark 'base' like mahogony stain or even dark walnut. I must make sure the grain is filled at this point. The wet sanding and filling mnetioned by others is sound advice. And, also, I am looking at darkening the wood and bringing out the natural highlights and lowlights. This step of filling the grain and getting the dark brown/reddish brown BASE colour takes about a week.

Then I have been putting on anywhere from 4 to 8 coats of the Behlen Blood Red. I can get an idea of how it will look when it is 'wet'.

Then to my surprise I have found that Tung Oil, the high gloss grade, is really a nice finish. It gives me the OIL look we all talk about, yet it has a nice sheen. To my eye, I like this look the best so far of everything I have tried... Oh and the Tung Oil actually dries! All those projects I did with Linseed Oil left what I call an endlessly drying but never really dry stock.

The two projects I am nearly done with look like wood that is decades old, and the colour is classic. I want to put two more very thin layers of Tung Oil on. (Maybe more). I am only at 3 applications of the Tung Oil. Very thin each one was too. Although it looks good, I still want it to be a bit deeper on the final 'clear/amberish' final coat.

Also, I sand with 600 to 1000x. I think 280 to 400 is too coarse and you will see scratches, I'm afraid. Even if you use 400 for the hevay work, I recommend a once over with 600-1000, or the finest scotchbrite or even steel wool. Make sure you clean, vacuum, clean white cloth rub the wood off after steel wool. It leaves alot of metal fibers that can ruin a finish.

Wow, I feel like I have gotten to a new level in refinishing the wood. I don't know why I stayed away from Tung Oil all this time. So many Linseed Oil advocates I guess. I just never could get mine to dry as well as the Tung Oil. And the shine, the gloss is rich and not too thick and "cheap" or too modern looking looking like any polyurethane or urethane product that I have tried... so far.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/18/06 01:56 PM
Yogi, I found Minwax Tung Oil locally (also their stains), but I have the impression it is not PURE tung oil and has driers added. Is this the one you are using, or something similar?, and what do you use to apply it?

JC(AL)

P.S.: Considering all the things I don't know I could keep this thread going on forever
[provideed I get the answers, :-)].
Posted By: rabbit Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/18/06 02:25 PM
What does the Venice turps in the Shropshire lad's recipe? Does the carnauba something that beeswax won't?

jack
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/18/06 03:14 PM
Jack, carnauba is among the hardest of natural waxes you can find (in its pure form it is harder than concrete ) so I suppose not only does it impart shine, but also protection. This is why it is a component in the better car polishing compounds.

JC(AL)
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/18/06 03:25 PM
I should mention I have (from a failed business venture) about 18 liters of carbauba wax in liquid form (water soluble) that is very easy to apply and imparts a very nice shine. If anyone wants some let me know.

JC(AL)
Posted By: outdoorlvr Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/18/06 03:58 PM
Yogi

Now let me get this right, what you're doing following basic stock prep is to start with a mahogany stain which you sand in to both fill the grain and achieve the beginning darker color you want - - and then you're moving on to Blood Red?

If so, then your stain has an oil base which permits both coloring and filling? Or, did I miss the correct instruction here?

For what its worth, Bethlen Solar-Lux also comes in a mahogany -B503 3A10 - which readily mixes with oil. Solar Lux products being dyes, penetrate better than stains. What brand of oil stain did you start with?

Regarding the tung oil subject, I'm pleased to hear this. For years and years I've been using little bottles of Formbys Tung Oil Finish for almost all of my oiling work. - So you think that the finish you're getting with your selected brand of tung oil compares well with that provided by Salopian's linseed oil based recipe?

Appreciate your comments.

For another "for-what-its-worth", Formbys and I suspect other tung oil brands have hardeners added to them just like proprietary linseeed oil based finishes. Formbys dries hard and is easy to apply. Its also comparatively cheap.
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/18/06 10:27 PM
JayCee,
I would like some of the wax. PM not working for me so email hanslicharpent@hotmail.com so we can work out details. I might be able to assist you with any shopping that is unavailable in your market. Let me know.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/19/06 01:22 AM
Hansli, just sent you an email.

JC(AL)
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/19/06 06:35 PM
Carnauba wax gives a harder finish than beeswax (most traditionalists still use beeswax)Venetian turpentine also helps the finish to be harder but also gives the oil 'body' and the finish a certain 'depth'.
Tung oil can give some people a rash so take care.
Most 'Antique' oils are Tung oil with driers and may have spar varnish or polyurethane added, that may be why they are harder,shinier and faster drying than Linseed.
To each his, or her, own.
I am proud of what I produce and happy.
Last week a very happy customer showed off his gun I had just refinished for him, to a friend.
Saying the following "look at the finish, wood that beautiful doesn't grow on trees" ???????????????
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/20/06 04:42 PM
The Tung Oil I used was Formby's, too. And yes they have dryers/hardeners in there as well as gloss enhancers. I used to formulate epoxies and I am familier with some additives that can dramatically enhance gloss. (Byk Mallincrot, German company, incredible stuff.) I was very happy with the Formby's Tung Oil in high gloss. I have yet to play with rottenstone to adjust the gloss some. But I will soon.

Salopian---That is one funny line: "wood that beautiful doesn't grow on trees!!!" hahaha! Also, I really like the linseed oil look, I just haven't been able to get it to really "cure" for me. And they mar too easily, the ones I have done. However, I believe you when you say your customers are very happy with your work. Moreover, how many decades has linseed oil been successfully used by the best gun makers?

I have used Minwax stain in Mahogony to fill and darken, very thin applications, depending on the wood, I may cut it with solvent to make it even thinner. Wet sand to help fill. I hear you about it being oil based and maybe I should try another Behlen stain instead to fill and darken the wood then apply the Blood Red.

All good ideas.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/20/06 06:09 PM
Is canuba wax the same as "carnauba" wax, JayCee?

I assume it is. But you know what theys ay about assuming anything....
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/20/06 06:48 PM
From what I could find, it is. It was referred to as the "hardest and most expensive" wax, so...

JC(AL)
Posted By: Steve Lawson Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/20/06 09:02 PM
I have been using Formby's tung oil for years on furiture restos and gunstocks. On some stocks, I have been cutting it a bit with boiled linseed oil ( to get the "sheen" I desire) and applying very sparingly letting dry 24 hours before next coat. After approximately 25 to 30 coats (I lost count) I let dry for three days then applied a couple of coats of Butcher's Bowling Alley wax with my fingers and letting is set up about 15-20 minutes before buffing out with a 100% cotton cloth. (I use diapers)

This is a Carnauba based wax that has some turpentine in the base that is very good for wood of all sorts. It leaves a very nice sheen while giving the surface a nice hard protective finish. I use this same wax as a finish and protectant on all of my guns to include waxing barrels and all the metal bits.

I have just finished an old Army and Navy .410 stock and as soon as I get the butt plate on and totally reassembled I will be happy to post some pics...... But, I will neeed some help cuz I can't walk while you chew gum.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/21/06 03:45 PM
Steve, sent you a PM.

JC(AL)
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/21/06 03:48 PM
Sounds great. I think many would like to see a stock redo on an old Army Navy. The cutting with boilded linseed also makes sense I haven't tried it yet but was thinking of doing that after my last post.

I will look into that Butchers Bowling Alley wax, too.

And also I am intersted in the Carnuaba wax from that 'business venture' that didn't take flight. How can we get some?
Posted By: Steve Lawson Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/21/06 03:59 PM
Well, I got her done last night and assembled. I cound not find a but stock to my liking so I went through my junk drawer and came upon one that was on my Dad's old single 12 gauge. I felt it apropriate and ground, filed and sanded to fit. Looks good on there, I will take some pics tonight.
Posted By: Steve Lawson Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/21/06 04:03 PM
JayCee...... I just checked my PM's and nothing there. If you like send me an e-mail to steveyacht@hotmail.com.

thanks,

steve
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/21/06 07:21 PM
Personally I would avoid waxing a stock unless I never intended re-oiling the finish.
Should you want to use a wax polish you could do a fine job with Bri-wax (excellant)
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/21/06 07:37 PM
Agree with Salopian. The carnauba wax (at least) leaves a very impermeable and
hard surface on the finish.

OTOH it does impart a nice subdued protective shine.

JC(AL)
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/22/06 12:08 AM
I should warn you that removing the carnauba wax is a pain. I had to sand the experimental stock I applied it on. It had three applications of linseed oil and I experimented with my water soluble wax on it. (No, it does not come off with water)

The wax was impervious to acetone and 190º proof alcohol so I ended sanding it away.

JC(AL)
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/22/06 04:39 PM
JayCee---thank you for the wax. I am SIKED to try it... and Steve, where are those pictures of the old Army Navy stock redo? Would like to see it!

I have tried that Behlens Blood Red and the Tung Oil on some nice old wooden boxes I have. They were looking tired and I was never crazy about the colour. WOW, they look terrific now. The colour is red without being too garish and the tung oil 4-6 coats is incredible; it looks like an old finish, not brand new which is what i was seeking.

I am part way through my current redo project. still applying mahogony stain and sanding to fill grain and darken the wood... it is getting there. Soon I'll be in the Behlen Blood Red phase! Then tung oil.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/22/06 05:12 PM
Steve's A&N:







JC(AL)
Posted By: Steve Lawson Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/22/06 05:50 PM
Thanks To Juan Carlos for posting my pics. When I got this A&N you could not even see that there was any grain to thwe wood at all. The area around the loks was totally black with oil, grunge and grime. I was not comfortable using the Acetone and Alchohol baths as recommended, so I just scrubbed the hell out of it with Murphy's Oil Soap and hot water. After which I set the over temp to as low as it would go (approx 190F) and let dry for about an hour, turned off the oven and let it cool in the oven. Next day the oiling began...... Put it back together day before yesterday.
I call this a mantainence re-finish just to clean it up but not make it look too new!
Posted By: outdoorlvr Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/22/06 10:49 PM
Two observations about this thread are that I have learned a great deal as an individual and that stock finishers in general have a near voracious interest in similar learning and problem solving. Stock finishing is by its nature a fairly lonely pursuit - - most often done alone with memory in full play an perhaps a few scribbled or printed instructions. A good deal of trial and error type work is also a part of it, as we all know.

At one time, I was heavily into refurbishing military Curio & Relic type rifles. I can't think of a stock that commands as much restorative attention as a well used military - - steeped in cosmoline and heavy lubricants, stack-stored and often cracked and gouged, and subject to all the heavy use militaries were intended for.

Several years ago, I ran across a little forum (actually, one of many individual forums) focused on militaries. This one bore the modest title of "C&R Riflestock Cleaning and Preservation", moderated by a chap calling himself the "Cabinetman".

The operative line for this present post is - - if you can refurbish military wood successfully, you can probably do a good job on anything - - with a willingness to adapt and discounting checkering. I took this C&R forum's information to heart, read and read, and then applied.

This forum is still alive and well. At its outset there are about 10 brief essays on key stock restoration jobs. I invite you to give them a look. The forum's actual scope notably exceeds its title. Depending on your endurance, there is an incredible amount of stored information there-in. I think you'll cull out some ideas towards refinishing our beloved double gun wood that will make their reading worthwhile. For instance, the Cabinetman was into Behlen analine dyes years ago and there is a great little essay he wrote over there on the differences between dyes and stains. There are other essays on . . . sandpaper (yes, there's a lot to be said about sandpaper), "spitcoating" with shellac, lengthly discussion on BLO, tung and other finishes, and etc. etc. etc. There is also info on stock cleaning, some of it very aggressive and the use of which you'll want to weigh before you proceed.

The site address is: http://www.milsurpshooter.net
It is a part of the larger Parallax Bill's C&R site. You'll need to scroll down throuh a number of individiual forums to reach the one on cleaning and preservation.

So, in the spirit of more stock finishing learning, the above is offered.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/22/06 11:14 PM
ODL, great site!!

Just took a peek and already learned some important stuff concerning sand paper!

Thank you.

JC(AL)
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/29/06 07:12 PM
Can you get Liberon Finishing oil in the U.S.?
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 11/29/06 11:21 PM
Yes, it is available from at least two sources. A tung oil product with dryers, tell us more about its properties/advantages, please.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/10/06 08:33 AM
For those of you interested there is an informative article in the current edition of Sporting Gun by Jason Harris about stock finishing with oil.It is his way of doing it and destroys a few myths.
Dig touched lightly on it a few issues back in Sporting Shooter also.
One thing for sure is that we have come a long way from Harry (Slackum) Lawrence's days.
I have to chuckle at the Linseed haters who mention 'water spotting' we are renowned for our liquid sunshine here and I have NEVER had such a problem.
I guess "you aint doin it right boys"
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/10/06 01:52 PM
Salopian, any possibility of getting the mentioned article? Scan and email for example?

Would really appreciate it.

I should mention that based on your recipe I have been experimenting with a concoction of my own that has proven (at least in my limited experienc) rather good:

100 grams boild linseed oil
15 grams turpentine
5cc carnauba wax solution
The proportions follow the ones in your recipe (after I translated the mix up of grams and grains) except for the carnauba which I doubled considering the one I have is in a water base solution and not pure.

No boiling, just shake vigorously and it becomes homegenized. Applications of very small quantities and hand rubbing them.

Will post picture of stock to show result.

JC(AL)
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/10/06 02:36 PM
Not yet finished and very difficult to show the shine, but it can be appreciated in the
reflection of the jacket label. (Please abstain from commenting on the white line).
No stain, some sanding and "ironing" to lift some dents; not a total refinish
considering the gun is over a hundred years old so I thought it should retain some of its
patina:



JC(AL)
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/10/06 03:08 PM
Maybe here the shine can be better appreciated:



JC(AL)
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/11/06 11:53 AM
I'd appreciate some comments/criticism.

JC(AL)
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/11/06 02:45 PM
JayCee,
Love those French guns. How did the wood look before? Does this formula give 'depth' to the finish? That is something difficult to convey online but I'm interested to know nonetheless. I'm also curious about a water based liqid being blended with an oil. When emulsified does the liquid get cloudy? Esoteric points, but to the finishers in the crowd, germane to the topic.
Posted By: Rockdoc Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/11/06 03:07 PM
JayCee,
Your gun has beautiful wood! Love the depth in the finish and the fact that it doesn't appear to be a hi-gloss look. Could you please post before refinish and during refinish picture of the gun.
Steve
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/11/06 04:25 PM
Hansli, here a couple of old photos I found that can give you an idea of the "before":




When briskly shaken before applying, the concoction does blurr but becomes very well homogenized. I am not entirely sure the carnauba is just water based, what I do know is that it is water soluble.

JC(AL)

Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/11/06 04:27 PM
Sorry Rockdoc, no "during" pictures. My mistake.

JC(AL)
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/11/06 05:10 PM
Quite a transformation considering it's not a refinish.
Posted By: Rockdoc Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/11/06 06:00 PM
Quite a change, a true "diamond in the rough". That's one of the things I've learned to look for in guns is wood that has an old worn out finish. It does such a wonder to the gun to make that old wood look nice again.
Steve
Posted By: Steve Lawson Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/11/06 08:21 PM
JayCee - Very nice! That is what I had in muind when doing my Army & Navy .410 that you were posted the pics of earlier in this thread. When I first got it the wood was nearly black, with the grain totally hidden. While I managed to keep much patina, the wood really looks much better now with a soft shine without being too glossy.
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/14/06 10:05 PM
Jaycee,
Not bad, you have a tidy gun now and only you can choose wether to carry on the oil applications to obtain the depth of finish I personally prefer.
Ken my veteran stockmaking friend gave me a couple of bottles of brew the other day, one of them was Carver's oil and the other was Iron filings in vinegar stock colouring, very nice hazelnut brown.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/14/06 10:50 PM
Salopian, thank you for your words of ecouragement!

I am not done yet. I am still applying minute quatities of the concoction as per your instructions and rubbing them by hand (even wiping my hand on an old t-shirt while I rub so the quantity applied is at a minimum), letting stand for 24 hours between applications.

JC(AL)
Posted By: Rockdoc Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/15/06 12:01 AM
JayCee
Did you recut the checkering or was it just full of dirt originally? It's beautiful!
Steve
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 12/15/06 07:09 AM
Jaycee,
It sounds like at last I have found someone who listens?
That method is the very essence of success.Apply a drop of oil, about as big as a fingernail, and push it around and into the wood until it has gone, set aside for about 40 minutes and then buff the stock with a piece of cotton tee shirt until all residual oil is gone.Then set aside for 24+hours in a warm environment.
Posted By: bugsy Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 02/04/07 05:01 PM
jaycee did you finish your stock and did you do any pictures
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 02/04/07 11:48 PM
Here's the finished product. Still needs a final 5f rubdown. Best of all the gun fits, no more wearing hand me down shoes.
[img]http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p148/HansliCharpent/?action=view&current=DSCF0171.jpg[/img]
[img]http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p148/HansliCharpent/?action=view&current=DSCF0167.jpg[/img]
[img]http://s127.photobucket.com/albums/p148/HansliCharpent/?action=view&current=DSCF0168.jpg[/img]
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 02/05/07 03:58 PM
hansli--- What did you use to get the colour?
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 02/05/07 04:12 PM
Rockdoc, the checkering was recut locally but not by me.

Bugsy, not finished yet, will post end result. A lot of veeeery thin applications are
being needed for this old stock.

Salopian, the (AL) I use after my initials means "Always Learning". What good would it
do if I didn't listen? :-) Thank you for sharing your experience.

JC(AL)
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 02/05/07 04:19 PM
That's alkanet root boiled in alchohol and mixed into linseed oil. About 6 applications wet sanded 600, 800, 1000, 1200, 1500. Top coat is Dig/salopian oil finish, coat a day for a month. Last 4 coats, I added a small amount of pure tung oil to the rub. The wood is one of 3 turkish blanks I bought cheap from Ali Denli in Switzerland.
Posted By: Yogi 000 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 02/05/07 04:47 PM
Very nice.

Also, I assume when you say wet sanded, you mean with "water"... or do you use a different lubricant... I know some guys swear by oil (linseed or such in their wet sanding).

I am also learning how to use sparing applications. I'm also getting the feel for working with Pumice and Rottenstone on the final layers to remove imperfections and knock the gloss down andor prep for the final final coat... Very interesting part of the whole re-finish process this pumice and rottenstone work! learning learning learning...
Posted By: Hansli Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 02/05/07 06:14 PM
No Yogi, wet sanded with the alkanet oil as the wet. Wipe down, let dry, repeat with next grit.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 02/05/07 10:55 PM
Terminology is important. Up to now, in all I have read, whenever anyone has mentioned "wet sanding" it is using the finisher as the wet [as Hansli puts it, :-)]

Water was mentioned only for "whiskering".

JC(AL)
Posted By: Salopian Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 02/07/07 07:31 PM
Does anyone have any experience with 'Melamime or Melamine Oil'? supposedly used by wood turners !!!!
Posted By: bill schodlatz Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/15/15 12:23 AM
The red on many of the old American doubles is simply garnet shelac. Check a LCS or Parker.
bill
Posted By: tut Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/15/15 12:51 AM
8 Years between posts. Kind of amazing
Posted By: KY Jon Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/15/15 02:02 AM
Must be dial up service. smile
Posted By: damascus Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/15/15 06:34 AM
The red colour may also have been Madder Root or Dragons Blood maybe even a mixture of each with shellac?
Posted By: DoubleTake Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/15/15 02:12 PM
8 years....and I remember looking for this thread a couple times whilst attempting stainage.
Ah, I remember this thread, good memories. I remember asking what the thread was all about, since it was 30 some odd pages long. The short answer was,"Alkanet Root turns stock red." 30 pages for that simple answer!
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 07/15/15 10:28 PM
Love Alkanet root, but it's not red enough for some pre-war American guns, like the M-37s.
Posted By: Tinker Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/05/18 03:09 PM
This discussion is worth a visit.
It's unfortunate that the images suffered the Photobucket loss, but the subject matter is the prize.
Posted By: SKB Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/06/18 11:41 AM
I have recently tried Scherell's Schaftoil after seeing it recommended by a finisher I highly respect. Not my cup of tea. I had a hard time getting it to build up or dry properly. It just kept soaking in leaving a smudge on the wood.

I ended up finishing the gun with Daly's Teak oil finish. Alkenet added to BO in the beginning and in the Daly's finish. Came out really nice. I use other finishes but Daly's is my go to.
Posted By: Tinker Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/06/18 03:14 PM
Hi Steve

Do you know the composition of the Scherell's oil?

I have recently set up a bottle of BLO/Turpentine/Alkanet and have been treating a test piece of stock wood.
It's quite nice.

How are you adding Alkanet to the Daly's finish?
Do you steep the pulverized root in alcohol and strain it out to prepare a tincture as noted elsewhere in this thrrad, or do you add the powder directly to the oil finish?
Posted By: SKB Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/06/18 03:22 PM
John,
I do not know what the Scherell's is composed of. I have considered calling the finisher who was using it to see if I may have been applying it wrong but have not as of yet. It comes with no directions.

I use alkenet powder, first in straight BLO for a base back ground color, then add it to the Daly's in the same form. I'm sure it gets darker over time but to be honest, if you mix one day, the next day it is ready to use. The Daly's sealer can be used the same way and it has more solids and fills the pores faster. Duane Wiebe had a nice write up on his web page about the products and process but it appears to no longer be visible. The Daly's is really good stuff.

Steve
Posted By: Tinker Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/11/18 12:55 AM
Steve

Thanks for your comments.
I have a nice solution of boiled linseed oil with Alkanet Root that I have been fiddling with at the shop. Mr Wiebe was my source for this batch of Alkanet Root, from a few years ago. Only recently have I finally set it up as a stock oil. I see what you mean about using it right away. It looked pretty luscious the first day - it's been together for weeks now. I've been treating a slice of an old buttstock from the scrap basket. A little dab each day, rubbed into the surface then later wiped down etc.
This past week I've gone to wet sanding a wee bit with the oil and 400 wet/dry sandpaper.
It's looking quite nice.

In a week or so I'll start on finishing a rifle stock for myself with this potion.

The slackum oil, with the caranuba wax - the recipe calls for a small bit of Venice Turpentine. I looked it up on the web and learned it is a hoof treatment, having antiseptic qualities. Interesting.
Have you used anything similar to this slackum recipe with the caranuba wax?


Again I appreciate your comments
Cheers
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/11/18 01:44 AM
My latest acquisition:



I believe alkanet root was involved here.
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/11/18 02:00 AM
That's pretty, Lloyd. Good lines. I really like iron mounted rifles. Didn't it arrive ahead of schedule?

They may have used alkanet root, but that's not a traditional stain used on American m/ls. It looks a lot like Homer Dangler's stain to me. Photos are hard to go by tho'.

More pics soon?

SRH
Posted By: Tinker Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/11/18 03:08 AM
Neat rifle Lloyd!

Lefty flinter too.
Shot it yet?
Posted By: Lloyd3 Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/11/18 03:33 AM
The rifle arrived in Colorado after I'd left for Minnesota so I've neither seen it nor shot it, sadly. The way the weather is going up here, it's my loss. The photography is what was sent to me before it was shipped. I ordered it last January and sold a number of items (fly rods, reels, pistols, etc.) to finance it so...I'm hoping it was worth it.



I'm hoping for long (14 1/2 LOP, 42 inch barrel), light (#1 profile in .45) and lovely.
Posted By: SKB Re: Alkanet Root - Reddish Stock Look - 10/11/18 10:04 AM
Hi John,
I tried slackum oil with caranuba and Venice terp. I must have not done something right with it. It end up a waxy, oily concoction that smelled great but never really dried. I need to try again. I still have most of the ingredients. My Venice terp went bad. Really interesting stuff.



Nice looking rifle Lloyd. Enjoy it in good health!
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