I'd like to start him on a break-action gun for all the usual reasons, and a side by side would be great but....he's a typical 13-year old. Anything good or even interesting is going to get used pretty hard. I'd hate to do that because I won't be able to ignore it and I want this to be fun for him. O/Us are clearly more available and accordingly cheaper, but...is there a downside to starting with a single trigger O/U? After much consideration, I thinking 20-gauge (I know 12s are more available and cheaper) because this is for purely upland use. Any ideas from this wise & venerable crowd?
Oh....my default position is a pumpgun.
You mentioned he's getting bigger, I'd go with a twelve. He can become a discriminating sportsman later, for now maybe he'd like what he thinks is a grown up gun better. I wouldn't stick him with a pump action unless he wants to use it because he'll be looking around at what others are carrying, and you can decide what shells he stuffs in it. I vote, if you're thinking about buying anyway, take him looking and steer him towards choosing 'his' O/U gun.
Single shot shotgun. There are enough of them to be found (Winchester Model 37, Savage, Stevens, H&R, etc.). It is what I learned when my dad was teaching me back in the early 60s. I learned the value of my shots. I graduated to a side by when I got older, but I never forgot how much I learned shooting that used Stevens. I had to pull the hammer back every time I loaded a new shell.
A used Citori in whatever gauge, good guns that don't break the bank.
I would suggest a SKB 20 ga. with IC/Mod chokes. An inexpensive gun that will last his life time.
New England single shot, Stevens or a model B
Lloyd,
DO NOT set him up with the little "Youth" version of the Mossberg 500, the one with two stocks and an 18" barrel.
I have one here, and can report that I believe the gun was designed by activist PETA members, in hopes of discouraging youth from pursuing hunting.
The smaller of the two stocks is a torture device, that fits no-one. The 18" barrel lets a whole bunch of "Real Loud" out the end at the shot, and if shooting near dawn or dust, about a foot of flame.
I have one, that I put the longer of the two stocks on, and found a used 26" non vent rib barrel for, from a much older 500 20 gauge. The lug needs to be relocated, and when that has been done, I will have an actual "Youth" Mossberg that will be a far better first time gun.
CB posted a fine gun, but, I believe the Remington model 17 to be a superior choice to a model 12, in any kid catagory one might think of-size, weight, cost, anything.
Should I bring my model 17 and tell him you had one just like it, and that it would have been dandy for him, but, HIS DAD SOLD IT?
Not even I am that big a dink.
Good luck, in any case.
Best,
Ted
How about a Spanish SXS? Many are light, and the field grade boxlocks are incredibly cheap right now. You have a huge choice on the Simpson web site now, you can find one for around $200 easy.
I grew up with a Model 17, my grandfathers gun. It had no vent rib, full choke, and layers of leather for a recoil pad. I murdered game with it when I was 10 years old, full choke, no rib (I'm 59 mow, so 49 years ago). Good guns, but now, there are better, by far....and no more expensive. A 17 is pretty old fashioned....can't see where a kid would be enthralled! Browning Citori for a kid is my bet!
I would suggest a SKB 20 ga. with IC/Mod chokes. An inexpensive gun that will last his life time.
+1
Lots of good input, thank you all! A plain boxlock would be perfect, especially a light 12. I just haven't found it yet. Ted: I know where there is a decent 17 for sale. I see it almost every week. My fallback is a M31L in 20.
James: he out-grew his Model 12 (1913 20 bore). Too short now.
Mr. Snyder: the SKB is great suggestion.
How about a 20 gauge Stevens 5100 or 312? Inexpensive and sturdy, although they are double trigger. Light enough for a youngster and the double trigger makes them think before the second shot.
My 14yr old son and I are going through this excersize right now. Years ago I bought him a Remington 1100 special field 20 - nothing on earth as easy on a new shooter than a gas operated 20ga. He shot it a few times, but knew I prefer a double and I guess felt slighted by shooting the repeater. Right now he's shooting a 20ga sxs in the 6# range with a leather covered pad. It's more brisk than the 1100, but manageable and he hits clays in the back yard with it. I woulld hesitate to put a 12 in his hands too soon. Especially a light one. Most young men won't dare say it kicks too much and are more likely to lose interest or, almost as bad, develop bad habits.
This is the rationale that has lead us to a fairly interested young teenager asking to shoot clay pigeons every chance we get.
My 13 year old grandson just started his first hunting season. We started him out a few months ago at our club shooting Wobble Trap with the machine set to throw high. I had him start with my Browning Citori 16 gauge and he did well by the third and fourth round. We usually shoot two rounds a session, once a week. He's tried a few other guns- a Hunter Arms Fulton 20 Gauge , an H&R Hammerless Single Shot 12 gauge and my Browning Superposed 12 gauge. He did well with the 12 gauges , but I think the 16 gauge has been a perfect fit for him. Just a little heavy for him , throwing an ounce of number 8 shot in the Herters Dove/Target loads enables him to get good hits on the clays. Tonight he hit 20 out of 25 in his second round. We're looking forward to the Youth Duck Season this Saturday. It looks like I've lost my main bird gun, but gained a hunting/shooting partner.
I'd agree with looking for a good used Citori or Beretta if possible. I was initially going to buy him one of the new Savage O/Us, but one of my fellow club members had his Savage double on him on the line the week before my grandson started.
This older single shot Savage is hammerless with a tang safety and if you can use Winlites or load your own it may be what you want.
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/694749370Depending on the size of the young person, (if small) I alway thought a gas operated semi plugged to only hold the one in the chamber might be a more comfortable choice. But that moves you away from your original request.
The Weatherby SA-20? I don't own one of these but I've read good reviews.
Single shot shotgun. There are enough of them to be found (Winchester Model 37, Savage, Stevens, H&R, etc.). It is what I learned when my dad was teaching me back in the early 60s. I learned the value of my shots. I graduated to a side by when I got older, but I never forgot how much I learned shooting that used Stevens. I had to pull the hammer back every time I loaded a new shell.
There's no better shot than the man who only has 1.
SKB is a good option. Also a Ruger Red Label in 20 ga. If looking for a auto a Standard Weight 20 ga which is built on a 12 ga frame works well. Put a over length plug into it so it holds only one-off shell in the magazine. Two total. In fact I started my son out with a 1100 loading only one shell with none in the magazine. I would be more inclined to go with a 12 ga and reload shells for a boy from 7/8 to 1 1/8 ounce in a semi. Recoil is a real problem in light guns. And never give a kid a 20 ga then drop a couple of 3" shells in it. Those kick like a mule in a 20, kind of kill on both ends.
I'm also very much in favor of starting a kid out with single shot rifles and shotguns. They are a great choice from the standpoints of learning proper gun handling and safety, and learning there is more to good shooting than flinging the maximum amount of lead. I started out with the 20 gauge version of the aforementioned Savage model 220 hammerless which I bought with my paper route money. I still have it, and still have the Winchester Model 67A single shot .22 that Santa Claus left under the tree when I was 10. They both provide a lot of memories, and I can't imagine ever selling them.
James: he out-grew his Model 12 (1913 20 bore). Too short now.
.
But since the genie is already out of the bottle, and your son has been using a shortened 20 ga. Model 12, the most cost effective solution might be to simply buy a longer buttstock to get a few more years out of his present shotgun. You could hang on to the shortened butt to make it suitable for another kid in the future... maybe your grandson.
My son is pretty big for his age, but at about 12 years old he was tall enough to use my over and under with the recoil pad removed. I made a thin rubber pad to replace it. I figure if I need an "in between" I will buy a 1/2 pad and fit it until he grows into the full pad.
If you get a gun that is short enough with just the wood, but long enough with the recoil pad on he may be able to use the gun indefinitely.
CHAZ
I like the idea of a single shot starter gun, but somehow or another it might help if it seems a little 'cool'. If he already has his own smart phone, I doubt the ole I walked five miles barefoot to school in any weather and gramps taught me not to waste the bones and feathers will fly. If it's a good idea, a kid can always carry their gun empty and get handed just one shell at a time when it's right. I'm glad I didn't have to, but I would've got a semi auto plastic rifle for burning up rounds at the range if I thought it would have gotten one of the kids started off enough to keep interested.
Pretty insightful crowd here, not that I'm surprised. This is something that I've been noodling-over for some time as I've watched him grow up. His world and mine (at his age) were very different. I was chomping at the bit to go hunting when I was 12 (not 13!) and I lived for every moment of it. We didn't have many distractions then in rural Pennsylvania. I believe we had three TV channels to choose from (in black & white, of course), a party line phone, and a daily trip to the Post Office (our only real interaction with any form of the Federal Government). Almost all recreation took place outside unless it wasn't safe (ie. either too-cold or too-wet, or both). Contrast that with today's potpourri of distractions for younger folks and I understand why he hasn't truly felt the need until fairly recently. He still doesn't have a cellphone (Catholic School has helped with this somewhat) but I suppose that is coming shortly as he will be 14 this Christmas.
The idea of a single shot is very appealing for all the reasons already discussed, but the really good ones aren't inexpensive. What I want for him is what I discovered when I picked up my first real bird-gun. I was probably 18 when my father came home with a featherweight LC Smith 16 (that a friend had recently inherited, and since he didn't hunt....) and it was like the light coming on for the first time. That gun has cost me plenty of time and money over the years (hmmm...) but it has also has given me many gifts. I'd like his first hunting experience to have at-least a component of that "a-hah" moment. I had to carry a lot of real dogs before that time, and if I hadn't gotten to handle a real birdgun, even that late, I might have never gone down the path that I ultimately did.
I'm also very much in favor of starting a kid out with single shot rifles and shotguns. They are a great choice from the standpoints of learning proper gun handling and safety, and learning there is more to good shooting than flinging the maximum amount of lead. I started out with the 20 gauge version of the aforementioned Savage model 220 hammerless which I bought with my paper route money. I still have it, and still have the Winchester Model 67A single shot .22 that Santa Claus left under the tree when I was 10. They both provide a lot of memories, and I can't imagine ever selling them.
James: he out-grew his Model 12 (1913 20 bore). Too short now.
.
But since the genie is already out of the bottle, and your son has been using a shortened 20 ga. Model 12, the most cost effective solution might be to simply buy a longer buttstock to get a few more years out of his present shotgun. You could hang on to the shortened butt to make it suitable for another kid in the future... maybe your grandson.
I recommend nice vintage 1100 20ga with 26" barrel Mod choke or less. Those from 70s with mahogany stocks are particularly nice. There is no point in getting something where one has to work the slide when the gun mechanism can do that for you and reduce felt recoil through impulse redistribution ("splitting"). If one wants less cleaning/maintenance and more trouble free service than I guess Beretta 300 or 400 20ga would be the way to go.
Hey Lloyd, get him a cell phone before hunting season. Even for school and at the park, you never know if some little emergency comes up that he needs to get a hold of someone. Back when they were smaller, my wife just put blocks to limit the numbers a kid could send or receive calls from and no texting at the time. You never know, he might need it to get you out of a jam.
Get him out hunting before you lose him to high school. No regrets, but my boy was so involved in fall sports that no one got as much hunting in as we would've liked by the time he was maybe eleven or twelve.
Hey Lloyd, get him a cell phone before hunting season. Even for school and at the park, you never know if some little emergency comes up that he needs to get a hold of someone.
^^^ plus nice gas-operated self-loader preferably from Italy or USA. Gucci hikers from Italy superior to hikers from Cabela's Fabrique en Chine. Pride of ownership, prestige and good sense of self-worth matters regardless of age.
If he has a pump with but one round chambered, and none in the magazine, he has a single shot. I don't know why the single shot guys don't get that.
First thing any of us boys did, was ditch our single shots, and pony up for a pumpgun, usually with money we earned over the summer after we got the single shot. Some kids made enough they could swing an autoloader, but, it took me a few years to do that. Plus, I was happy with the 17 for a few short years. I didn't live on the high rent side of the tracks. I've seen more than one kid's thumb slip off the exposed trigger of an old single shot, which, never resulted in the gun going off, but, screwed the pooch on the shot the kid was attempting to make.
The model 17 might be old, but, the design is as fresh as the next model 37 gun built in the Upper Sandusky Ithaca plant at the start of the work day, tomorrow. If a kid is successful with a gun, he won't likely be thinking too much about some other design, and I haven't met anyone who started out with a 17 or a 37 that wasn't successful with it.
Most of the single shots you have the option of buying aren't high quality guns.
I'm blessed to have a safe full of stuff for the kid to try, but, he is left eye dominant, and I'll bet he ends up using one of my left handed guns, shooting left handed, in the end. There are worse places for them to go, I imagine.
Good luck, Lloyd. Working on logistics, but, I should see you there.
Best,
Ted
A lightweight 20ga sxs stocked correctly firing 3/4 oz load. I will use a 24 SxS when the time is right.
I can understand why many might recommend a auto because of recoil, but if properly fitted with a light load the side by side will work well.
I am not a fan of single shots, though my Father did start me on one and the world changed positively when I got to use a two barrel gun. What we learn can affect us later and many can't make the transition mentally to the SxS once they get used to the single barrel sighting plain.
Surprised how many recommended a pump, but to each his own
Maybe you are right, Ted. I 'loaned' my Model 17 to my vet for his grandson to learn to shoot, the gun with the leather layered recoil pad, and short. I've yet to get the gun returned....the kid may have fallen in love?? Mind you, this was about 5 years ago. The vet is my friend and has done me lots of vet favors. I'm thinking the kid believes it is his gun, and I'm ok with that, even though it was my grandfathers gun. I don't suffer from that sentimental stuff when it comes to guns. I'd rather hunt with an English SLE SxS anyway. So, no biggie. I hope the kid enjoys it as much as I did when I was his age.....I'm guessing he likely does.
Maybe you are right, Ted.
You have got to be getting tired of typing that, Buzz.
At any rate, and, all kidding aside, very good on you for setting a kid up with one of the perfect kid guns out there. I have my Remington 17 to this day, purchased from my Dad's deer hunting partner on September 17th, of 1977. I spent $50 whole dollars for it. I recently converted it to a lefty safety, and just recently discovered my Son is cross eye dominant, and I expect he will be shooting left handed.
I could have sold it a dozen times over the years, and, today, I am glad I didn't.
Again, good work, Buzz. I love a kid gets a gun story.
Best,
Ted
Well Ted, we've sparred a bit.....I just want to make amends and give credit where credit is due. The Model 17, I will likely not see again, and I'm ok with that. One thing I remember about that gun, it had an exceptionally good trigger. I've seen many competition guns whose triggers were no way as good. They are very good guns. If I found a cherry down the road, I might go for it, but to be frank, I've got enough shotguns to get me through the long haul. But, you never know with us shotgun guys. Hehe.
I just bought a pristine 20ga Miroku Daly O/U for my 14 year old grand daughter to get started. Great gun and will probably suit her for life. Had the stock shortened to fit (she is only 5'2" and done growing). These are one of the best guns in that price range and I could be happy shooting one as my only gun. Grandson already has a Miroku Daly SxS 20 and that is his pride. Looking forward to end of his enlistment in another couple years so he can take me bird hunting before I am too darned old for it. Started on a single shot Iver Johnson myself but used my dad's Springfield 16 ga SxS most of the time. I don't see any particular benefit to single shot that can't be accomplished by limiting the kids to only having one barrel loaded. Double triggers won't be an issue. I still prefer my Parker's double triggers to the single triggers on my other guns.
The Mirokus are alot of gun for the money. Thank you Mr. Lape for reminding me of that option.
Miroku also made a double trigger, extractor sxs that is quite similar to the Browning BSS. The 12s go for 400-600. Not sure about the pricing on the 20s. Not a bad choice for a kid if you want a sxs that will last him a lifetime.
I would go with a break open single shot 20 gauge.
I would go with a break open single shot 20 gauge.
I'd agree with that. Two shots is one too many for a 13 yr. old beginner. If it is a single 20ga, then make it a model 220 so he'll get used to the tang safety and by-pass the hammer problems...Geo
then on to a sxs; even an up and down one!
I would go with a break open single shot 20 gauge.
I'd agree with that. Two shots is one too many for a 13 yr. old beginner. If it is a single 20ga, then make it a model 220 so he'll get used to the tang safety and by-pass the hammer problems...Geo
then on to a sxs; even an up and down one!
The 220 was only made in full though so you would need to open it probably if it wasn't already. Recently ran across a 220A in 28ga, really like that gun!
I have to provide my viewpoint since it is so fresh in my mind.
My oldest, Paul, is 11 1/2. I have contemplated for a long time what to do for his first gun. I had a Beretta 686 20ga with 30 inch barrels. We tried that first and I found for his size the barrels were just too long. His arm strength was not there.
So I chose a Savage/Stevens 220 in 20ga hoping once he got good he could switch back to the Beretta. I chose this particular gun because I don't like hammered single shots. I found them hard to cock and they are dangerous for young kids who don't have the strength to cock them. One slip and the gun goes bang, usually in a direction that is not so great. The 220 cocks on opening and its tougher to open than a normal O/U, but Paul can do it. It has a normal top slide safety.
I found one that someone had tried to checker on for a good deal. I spend the better part of early 2017 sanding off the checkering and finishing the stock. I built my own adjustable butt plate, which in my opinion is key for young kids. I shortened the LOP to ~12 inches. I opened up the full to modified first. I got one forearm panel checkered before we started shooting. The other item I would recommend is getting a Bear Tooth Products neoprene stock cover. Adds about 1/8 of an inch of cloth and foam rubber to the comb of the stock. Makes those first recoils easier for young kids.
I also used the 16ga.com reloads info to find a suitable low pressure 20ga 3/4oz load for Paul. That was another huge help.
I made a pact with Paul. Once school finished he had to shoot with me at least once a week till dove season. He held up his bargain first by shooting trap at the local range here in Denver at the state park. Once I felt he had that down I knew he needed to learn swing so off to the skeet range we went. I tried the modified but I did not feel he was getting the full advantage, so I opened up to IC. He really loves that game better than trap and boy am I glad. I love skeet more than trap too. Along with all of that he made it through a firearms safety course earlier in the year and then did his hunter safety course this summer.
Toward the late end of August I brought out the Miroku 20ga O/U I have had in the closet for almost 20 years and he fell in love.
Although he begged me to let him shoot it for dove season I kept to my original intentions and he shot the single shot. My 9 year old went with us as bird boy for the first time and I really needed Paul to be safe. I chose not to hunt but sat on a bucket in the field right behind Paul and gave him advice, encouraged him and helped him spot birds.
It took most of the morning but he got his first dove on a great crossing shot. He was so excited. I can't wait for pheasant season. I think we will quickly move to the Miroku. By dove season 2018 he will be onto either the Miroku or the Beretta. The Miroku is better for him as he is right handed but left eye dominant and the gun has had the stock modified for a left handed shooter, which his how I made him shoot from the start.
If Skeetx comes along and sees this he might be able to vouch for the gun as he saw it this summer at an event we both visited down at the Whittington center. Paul and I enjoyed a couple rounds of skeet at the Whittington center too.
Just my two cents.
Great post and fantastic pictures there JLN! Your story of preparing your son for hunting should be in a textbook for parents. Well thought out gun arrangements as well...Geo
I picked my son up a CZ reduced length o/u a couple of years ago. He will be 12 in december and I think he will be able to carry it this year. It has 24" barrels and 13" lop. I just wish the weight was about 6oz lighter for him to carry through the woodcock woods.
Weight is a significant consideration for any upland gun. Young men can, of course, easily handle 7 or 8-pound guns but....some of the magic gets lost when a gun is unnecessarily heavy. "Six pounds in the uplands..." has been something I've read and heard several times over the years and it is now my mantra. A 12-gauge that fits well and is close to 6 1/2 pounds is a very good compromise in my book. Keep the loads lighter and a bit slower (RST 1-ounce?) and it should serve admirably.
Lloyd,
Don't know if it's of interest to you but there's a 24" Citori Upland Special 12ga for sale on the Upland Journal.
Hard to read it all and drive, but I agree with most of the sentiment but little of the suggestions. I don't think the specific gun matters so long as it fits the purpose or need and is clean enough to be proud of.
I got a 20 ga 1200 for Christmas at 13 yrs old and didn't wish for anything different. And I read every gun and outdoor mag cover to cover. The safety was worse than an 870 or moss 500 or Ithaca 37 for a lefty and the 28 in barrel made the whole thing a little long for a smaller kid but it was perfect in every way. No amount More money or prestige would have improved the situation. More practice could have helped. But none the less I remain a fanatic about hunting and the outdoors today.
On my only trip to South Dakota for pheasants I alternated days with that pump and my best sxs.
Does that make the 1200 perfect ? No. I'd say any gift from dad with good intent and the oppurtunity to use it is the key.