Last Fall, after cleaning my JP Sauer 20 gauge shotgun, I inserted 2 plastic Pachmayr snap caps in the shotgun. Last week I removed the gun from its case for a hunt. Upon opening the action, there was no visible snap cap in the right barrel. Fortunately the snap cap in the left barrel was still visible although it too had begun to slide down the barrel. I was able to get both snap caps out of the barrels. The plastic rim on each had disintegrated over the past year, allowing both the caps to slide down the barrels, obstructing the bores.

The snap caps are blue and marked Pachmayr, CAL.20 MADE IN ITALY.

Regarding my post, I have photos but can't figure out how to attach them.

I gave up long ago on plastic snap caps because of the same issues, the rims eventually break off. I use the metal ones with the fleece swabs.

http://www.bigcountrysportinggoods.com/c...XxoCt-cQAvD_BwE

I am sorry to be a SA but this is a good example of why leaving ANYTHING in a gun when put away is a bad idea.
Why would you? I can think of no useful purpose.

It doesn't serve any useful purpose, but some still believe that it helps keep tension of the springs. The best caps are those with hard rubber primers made of thin metal plated with nickel. For practice I use light alloy ones with spring tensioned brass primers because that is all I could find locally in 16 ga.

Toby, it's good point, but there's one case where it might make sense. With a barrel-cocked gun you can chamber snap caps, relieve the springs and then take off the fore end to open the gun and remove the caps without recocking. I haven't been able to figure out how to do that with a lever cocked gun like the MF Ideal. The only alternatives I come up with are leaving the gun cocked or maybe removing th barrels and snapping the strikers into a a piece of wood.

Solution is very simple. Make a couple of brass rods about 2" or 3" long. With the gun pointing upwards drop them down the muzzle. Snap the barrels and slide the rods out. Presto! Springs relieved without straining the firing pins.

Thanks, Joe! That sounds like it would do the trick!

I relieve my gun's springs by using a horn block sold for such a purpose. I like to remove the tension before cleaning so that I don't end up pushing crud into the firing pin holes. After cleaning I reassemble the gun and into the safe it goes.
At one time I used spent shotshells to relieve the spings but that could invite disaster. My nice snap caps stay in the case.
Karl

While I think it unnecessary to uncock a gun for storage, the MF Ideal is easy. Hold the triggers back with the cocking lever depressed. Continue to hold the triggers while lowering the lever. The gun is uncocked.

I suspect the problem with the caps' rims deteriorating is related to the effect of oil on the plastic.

I don't know how I forgot about the uncocking bit with the Ideal. Still makes me nervous to do it for some reason, but yes that's one of the gun's features.

On my J P Clabrough & Bros SLNE the forend cannot be replaced with the hammers down. It has what I would consider conventional cocking levers. On these the lever is hinged in the bar of the frame. The longer rear portion lifts the toes of the manner, while the shorter front portion extends through the knuckle to engage the forend iron. With down the levers are do not ave eniugh clearance to allow the forend to be reassembled without 'un-due" force.
Miller/TN

Dropping the hammers really does relieve the tension on the main springs, and a spring which is left in a compressed state for an extended period will eventually take a set. But you don't even own any double guns Jagermeister. So tell us... since you don't own even one lousy double shotgun...do your snap caps cycle through your Remington autoloader?

I use several different brands and types of snap caps including the plastic ones, but never had a problem with the rims disintegrating or breaking. Some of them are probably 20-25 years old. I wonder if exposure to some specific bore solvent or oil is what caused the plastic cracking problem that some have experienced? Syracuse Lefevers are another gun that can easily be manually de-cocked, eliminating the need for snap caps or dry firing into a wood block or piece of brass.

Is it odd that snap caps would slip down the bore of a 20 ga. even without the rims ? I would think that the snap cap diameter was near the chamber diameter, which should be larger than the bore diameter.

I don't use them in my 16ga gun. The only reason I bought them was to test ejector function and timing on Ugartechea 16ga 25" BLE game gun. They should play a function in practice when lot of dry-firing is done. For that purpose they should be durable and have weight of empties or slightly more. Snappy's clear dud shells (Starline shell) with lead shot removed should work fine.

But Jagermeister, you just told us that you didn't follow through with the sale on that Ugartechea 16 ga. with 25" barrels. You had it on 5 day hold and let it go. Do you have this much trouble making a decision when you buy your toy stuffed animals? You said a friend you work with bought it. Are you going to tell us that the ejectors weren't working properly, but your friend bought it anyway?

25" barrels huh? You sure seem to like those short barreled guns. But then, you did tell us that short barrels on a gun make you look taller.

Now you need to find a gun that won't make you look like a pathetic ass who can't afford even one lousy double, yet acts like he knows more about them than most experts.

Stupid guess or as is now popular fake notion. The 16ga Remington cost me more than the price of Ugartechea BLE. The guy needed game gun more than I. Since the price was very, very good I let him look at it. He liked what he saw, handled and ended buying nice knockabout gun for very little money.

Yeah, we already know that you do not really need a game gun because you got caught in one of your never-ending lies about the fact that you do not hunt. That was kind of like when you told us about your use of Grex polyethylene shot buffer, and then two weeks later told us you never reload ammunition.

Just as well that you let you friend buy the gun because it seems pretty apparent that you would have never followed though with your commitment to buy it. Considering the amount of absolute B.S you post here, I'd be very surprised to find that you actually bought the Remington Model 1100 16 ga. autoloader. I'd have to actually see the Form 4473 and the entry in the FFL's Bound Ledger. Nothing like a series of obvious lies to totally destroy any credibility you nay have once enjoyed.

The Remington 1100 16ga with 26" VR IC choked barrel is the new classic. Showing you pics of the gun and bill of sale would not change anything.

That's right Jagermeister. You have repeatedly lied to us. Anyone can come up with a picture of a Remington Model 1100 and photo-shop a bill of sale. If I made these two posts only a couple weeks apart, would you believe anything I posted afterward?

Post # 472881 on 2/22/17- Thread :" 16 ga loads not filling the hull?"--

Post #475337 on 3/17/17- Thread: "Reloading Herter's 16 Gauge Shells from Cabela's"--

This second statement was also shortly after you told us you no longer hunt. Here's a link to more of your B.S., and attempting to explain away one lie with another. What a jerk:

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=476292&page=11

As best I can recall, I used Hoppe's Elite Gun Cleaner and a 20 gauge bore snake prior to inserting the plastic snap caps for winter storage. Although one would not expect a rimless snap cap to slide down the bore, as noted in my post this in fact did happen in both bores. I just checked the internet and regrettably, these plastic snap caps are still being marketed. The pistol version of the Pachmayr snap cap appears to have a brass ring around the base, while the shotgun versions appear to have retained the plastic base and ring.

(It is worth noting that I visited the Lyman website and used the contact information to alert them to my experience with their Pachmayr branded snap cap. I have not received any feedback from Lyman.)

Based on my experience it is indeed foreseeable that there will be serious injuries resulting from this product. If any member has a personal contact at Lyman, suggest you contact the person so that they may take necessary steps to research and correct this condition.

Something related to the snap cap diameter and your bore diameter does not seem right. Maybe your bore has been altered. Does the snap cap slip entirely up the barrel to the choke area ?

Why not measure the snap cap diameter , and then measure the bore diameter ? Most German 20 ga bores are fairly tight. Measure the bores just ahead of the chamber, then at 1" intervals going toward the muzzle. I wonder if the gun has had the forcing cones lengthened .

A brass rod is going to be harder than a shotgun primer....hope you don't break a firing pin.

There is no rim left on the snap cap. Thus, just as the front of the snap cap slides easily into the bore, there is no rim at the rear to stop it and the snap cap continues to slide down the bore. (The entire snap cap is the same diameter after the rim dissolved.) The snap cap in the right barrel slid down and out of sight, the one on the left barrel slid down but fortunately remained in view when I opened the action.

I have passed this information on to the NRA and Outdoor Life magazines, suggesting that they alert members/subscribers as well as any contacts they may have at Lyman. I have also filed a report with photos to the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission. It is also worth noting that reviews of this product on Amazon disclose a number of one star reviews.

It is admirable that you would alert us, the NRA, and USCPSC about this potential problem, but I think you may be misunderstanding what Daryl was asking.

The body of the snap cap should be just under chamber diameter, and the chamber diameter is larger than nominal bore diameter. So even if the rim of the snap cap is totally gone, the body of the snap cap shouldn't go past the forcing cone and all the way into the bore... unless the bore is quite a bit larger than nominal bore size for a 20 gauge (.615") or the body of the snap cap is considerably under the normal chamber diameter.

Actually, a snap cap that had a minimum body diameter of .675", or .010" under the normal diameter of the front of a 20 gauge chamber, shouldn't be able to fall all the way into a nominal 16 gauge bore with a diameter of .662". I would expect it to go well into the forcing cones, but it shouldn't be possible to fully chamber a loaded shell behind it. Your Pachmayr snap caps must be very much under chamber size if it is sliding into a 20 gauge bore.

Keith, well said. Snap caps in 20 ga. that I have around here measure about .680" diameter across the body, not the rim. They would not possibly slip down a normal 20 gauge bore of .615" diameter. Something is fishy.

Still waiting for the Sauer 20 ga. bore diameter and the diameter of the snap cap body [not the rim] from GR8BAY. It would be hard to make any sort of a case with any of the agencies the complainant contacted without those simple measurements.

Possibly GR8BAY used the wrong sized snap caps. Maybe he put 28 ga. snap caps into a 20 ga. Sauer.

Just get some new snap-caps...Geo

Appreciate your comments and insight guys. I don't have appropriate tools for getting the accurate measurements some have asked for. However. I placed the 20 gauge snap caps in 3 separate 20 gauge guns and according to my rough measurements, the snap caps slide into the bores, out of sight, with the defective rim beyond where it should be seated as noted below:

JP Sauer double - 1 1/8"
Pre 64 Winchester Model 12 Pump 15/16"
Winchester Model 1300 Pump 1 1/2"

Thus Keith, you are correct; if I had attempted to chamber a shell, the defective snap cap would likely have prevented the shell to be seated in the bore. It remains regrettable however, that this product is still on the market, as the plastic rim does not hold up.

Again, thanks for your comments.

Sounds like you may have used 28 gauge snap caps. No pictures, no measurements of the snap cap or the bores , leave little to go on. Odd, too, that the rims broke off completely over the storage period.

Daryl-

My initial comments on this thread are as follows, and you will note in paragraph 2 that the snap caps are accurately described:


"Last Fall, after cleaning my JP Sauer 20 gauge shotgun, I inserted 2 plastic Pachmayr snap caps in the shotgun. Last week I removed the gun from its case for a hunt. Upon opening the action, there was no visible snap cap in the right barrel. Fortunately the snap cap in the left barrel was still visible although it too had begun to slide down the barrel. I was able to get both snap caps out of the barrels. The plastic rim on each had disintegrated over the past year, allowing both the caps to slide down the barrels, obstructing the bores.

The snap caps are blue and marked Pachmayr, CAL.20 MADE IN ITALY."

I have no idea as to how to paste photos to this website. Most websites have a paper clip icon for attaching photos. However, I attached photos to Shotgunforums.com and if you can open the link, it is:
http://www.shotgunforums.com/forums/shotgun-accessories/3329-snap-cap-useage-4.html

Anyway, it is evident that despite being a poorly fabricated product, it appears from comments on this thread and my own subsequent research with my three 20 gauge shotguns, that these snap caps, although not visible when the chamber is opened, are unlikely to slide down the bore far enough to allow a shell to be chambered. Let's hope that this is the case for all that use this product.

I would add that Amazon which sells this product currently has 6 reviews- one 5 stars for the brass rimmed snap caps offered in pistol and rifle calibers and five 1 star ratings for the plastic rimmed shotgun snap caps:

https://www.amazon.com/Pachmayr-Snap-Dum...iews-filter-bar

I looked at the photos of these defevtive snap caps in your link, and they are clearly marked "Cal. 20 Made In Italy" just as you said.

So we are down to needing the measurements that Daryl asked for in order to determine just what is going on to permit these snap caps to fall well into the chambers of three different 20 gauge guns. I'd be most interested in the largest diameter of these snap caps, and the diameter of them at the end.

My first thought was the possibility that this was a gun you had never fired, and that it might actually be a 16 gauge. Being a J.P. Sauer made that possibility even more likely because of the popularity of the 16 gauge in Germany. And I have bought several guns that turned out to be a different gauge than advertised. When I bought my very first Syracuse Lefever, I got it from a guy who inherited it and knew nothing about it except that he didn't want it in his house where his grandkids might find it. It was so light and trim that I was sure it was a 16 gauge. When I got it home, I dropped a pair of plastic 16 ga. snap caps into it to drop the hammers, and they fell into the chambers. I had gotten very lucky on my first Lefever purchase by getting a very scarce small frame 12 gauge gun.

The fact that you tried these snap caps in two other 20 gauge guns kinda blows that theory out of the water. But the different depths that your caps went into these different chambers just goes to show the variability of chamber and bore dimensions that we deal with. Another possibility is that there was a manufacturing screw up, and some 28 gauge snap caps somehow got misprinted with the "Cal. 20 Made In Italy" marking. I've personally seen a number of such screw-ups made by human error during the changeover process in manufacturing. Again, I would beg, borrow, or buy a micrometer or digital caliper to get those measurements.

Keith

My hunting partner likely has a micrometer so I'll get take measurements when I see him in a week or so. Meanwhile I just took rough measurements with a ruler, results below:

Both defective 20 gauge Snap caps:

21/32" Front
22/32" Rear (area where rim dissolved)

Remington live round, 20 Gauge:

22/32" front (crimped end)
25/32" rear (includes rim on metal base)

You mention Lefever. I recall my Dad telling me a story in the 1950s. He and my Uncle were hunting in NJ and they came across a bloody scene in the woods. There were two shotguns on the ground, one a perfectly fine Lefever, the other a shotgun with an exploded barrel. My Dad and uncle were able to track down the owner of the Lefever and return the shotgun. (The guns were left in the woods because the hunter had to assist his injured companion out of the woods.) Anyway, that story has made me sensitive to obstructions in shotgun bores. It never would have occurred to me to attempt to insert a live round in the obstructed bores to see if the live round would chamber; rather I removed the obstructions in the JP Sauer barrels and believed it best to share my experience with fellow hunters.

This was not a mislabeling screw up- as the 20 gauge Pachmayr snap caps seated properly in the barrels when they were new while 28 gauge snap caps will not properly seat in a 20 gauge and thus immediately slide down the barrels. The Pachmayr plastic snap caps are merely a poorly designed product, not suitable for use as advertised. My sense is that the chemicals in the gun cleaner had an adverse effect on the plastic rims.

Ok, my original take was that the snap cap bodies went into the bore. They did not, I guess, and they were stopped by the forcing cone before getting into the bore.

Also, I think you will find that the plastic snap caps are not as long as the chamber boring. I'd "guess" the plastic snap caps are 2.1" , or there abouts, long, so that if the rim was removed they would naturally slide down the chamber .65" before hitting the beginning of the forcing cone, which is 2 3/4" long in all probability. One might "guess" that the snap cap might then go into the forcing cone a tenth of an inch before being stopped by the taper of the forcing cone. When the snap cap is stopped, in this scenario, it will have moved .65" plus .10" or .75" from the face of the breech. If the snap cap is shorter or the forcing cone is longer or altered, then that distance would be greater.

In this event, a loaded 2 3/4" shell could not be inserted and fired with the broken snap caps stuck in the forcing cones. A lot of aggravation , but no danger of the snap cap blockage of an exploding shell.

Thanks for your technical insight Daryl. The plastic rimmed 20 gauge Pachmayr snap caps are about 2” long, a live Winchester Super X 20 gauge round is roughly 2 9/32” long. Sorry for the confusion caused by my misreporting this issue, as I used to believe the forcing cone section as being part of the bore. I now know better !

And why leave snap caps in the gun anyway??

It’s my understanding that snap caps have at least 2 purposes; dry firing firearms and relieving tension on the firing pin spring when the firearm is stored. I use the snap caps after cleaning and prior to storing my shotgun. If I opened the action on my shotgun to remove the snap caps, I would be re-cocking the triggers. Thus I leave the snap caps in the shotgun after I pull both triggers. Perhaps some models of shotguns may be stored for lengthy periods of time without degradation of the firing pin spring. However some of my shotguns are older than me so I use snap caps prior to storage. I will be transitioning to A-zoom aluminum snap caps as a result of this incident.

A representative of Lyman Products contacted me re: this snap cap issue. I provided him with details regarding the degradation of the rims on the plastic snap caps, including photos. Apparently Lyman no longer distributes the blue plastic snap caps from Italy. He was kind enough to send me four 20 gauge A-Zoom (metal) snap caps.

Yeah mate, I use the A-Zoom metal snap caps. They are just slightly over crimped shell length. I believe them to be a good product.

Place snap caps in chamber, snap, snap, hammers down.
Remove fore end.
Open gun
Remove snap caps
Close gun
Replace fore end
Store in gun safe
Nothing in chambers or barrels, with spring tension relieved.
O.M