The Dec 2017 issue of the American Rifleman has a very nice illustrated article on Savage's introduction of a high quality but affordable US-made Fox double.
The new Fox A-Grade (for now) has a steel CCH action, DT's selective ejectors, walnut straight-grip stock and your choice of 12 or 20 gauge with either 26" or 28" barrels.
The new Fox is being made for Savage by Tony Galazan of Connecticut Shotgun Co fame, who has been making very expensive high-grade A.H.Fox double for quite a while now.
This new Fox is nothing like the older Savage Fox Model A that was based on the Stevens 311, as it's action is based on CSC's RBL series of double guns.
Since the suggested MSRP is $4995, I'd be interested to find out what the street price will eventually be.
.
If it is based on the RBL, it will not be a Fox. Savage is just whoring out the name.
Come on now ......... it's just as much a Fox as a Savage Fox Model B.
SRH
It may be a nice gun, but if it is based on the RBL, it won't be a Fox, except in name. Tony makes a great Fox---you can get one for about $14K last time I looked. Probably gone up by now. Or, you can buy an original Fox and rebuild it to your specs from the ground up, adding stock work, engraving, metal shaping, custom chokes, a single trigger, and a neon front sight, as desired (or not). $10K might get you one you like.
Lots of recycled verbiage from the April article, so Keefe saved himself some time at the word processor.
The incredible thing is that the gun shot right where he pointed it except at the patterning board where it appeared to shoot about a foot low.
I guess I don't understand why they would try to recreate the legendary Fox and then NOT make it in 16 gauge??? I mean I understand the popularity/sales issues with the 16, but it seems like if you're going to "bring back" a gun like this (even in name only), the thing to do would be to build it in what I feel is its notorious gauge. Fox...16...perfect.
Again, I understand the economics, but Browning at least put forth the effort with their re-release of the "Sweet 16".
Just my two cents.
You really answered your own question. It is the economics.
The answer on 16 is simple, the 20’s will sell far better.
Nationwide the16 double is too narrow market for Savage.
I love 16 and have shot little else for years, but I am a realist
Fellows, I also read the Rifleman article and can't for the life of me understand how they think that (basically Sterlingworth)totally non-Fox design will sell when you can buy a real Fox for 40% of their retail price.They scrapped the two features that allowed the Fox frame to be so light,to wit, the top extension and the sliding cocking lug, ala Facile Princeps Greener.What is so hard about making the gun to the original design as opposed to a basic A&D action that everybody and his brother already makes. I have always thought that if you could have gotten the English to build a Fox using their methods, you Would have had the 'the best gun in the world'. Happy Thanksgiving , Sandlapper
Well, the new A Grades supposedly weigh right around 6#, 20ga with 28" barrels. I have one coming shortly for review. I've only handled one, and I'd say that the 6# estimate is pretty good . . . which makes them from several ounces up to half a pound or more lighter than a Parker Reproduction 20ga--and those guns were exact copies of the original.
Yes, what you have is an American-made A&D that Savage chooses to call a Fox A Grade. (As pointed out above, Savage called a Stevens a Fox Model B a long time ago.) Wrapped in a pretty nice package. Meanwhile, AyA's A&D, the 4/53, will now set you back about $2,000 more than this new, American-made A Grade. And you won't touch an original Fox A Grade 20ga with ejectors for the same price.
I'll let you know what I think when I get my hands on one.
They should call this one the Fox model C.
At the risk of repeating myself over and over (yeah, I know), the New Fox gun from Savage will not sell more than a few dozen tops to those outside the circle of knowledgeable sxs fans like those here. The RBL overfilled this niche a few years ago and plenty are still available new and used,
Wasted time, effort, and money on Savage's part, good move by TG to get rid of some RBL parts.
JR
They should call this one the Fox model C.
No. The Z Grade, in honor of Tony Galazan.
JR
I agree it is doomed for failure at that price, but I will say that if someone was going to copy a boxlock action design, they couldn't have picked a better one. It's a shame they didn't utilize the inside design as well as the outside. Only three moving parts per lock, and the most attractive lines and contours of any box lock ever built, IMO, and I might add, Jim Carmichael's, too. To quote him --
"The double-barreled shotguns made by Ansley H. Fox in his
Philadelphia factory are classics for the simple reason that
they are the most beautiful shotguns ever made in America and,
for that matter, among the most beautiful boxlock designs ever
made anywhere. Whereas the customary practice of gun invention
was to design from the inside out, often enclosing the
mechanism in a plain outer shell that required engraving or
other embellishment to be presentable, the seductive lines of
the Fox receiver suggest that it was sculpted by an artist.
Like a lush maiden shed of her arrayment, the Fox needed no
engraving to accent its sensuous contours and, indeed, the
unadorned lowest grades perhaps best showcase their elegance
of form."
SRH
I too would rather see it in 16 ga.( 26" IC&Mod). If , as said above, the demand for these in 12 & 20 has been met, why not sell some 16s.
Mike
With a lil TIC, I have to admit not knowing the Fox Shotgun went anywhere? Seems to be a lot of REAL ones out there, most of which will likely outlast us...Have a great Thanksgiving folks..Flash and I will go see if we can put a couple more roosters to rest...Stay well
This new Fox is nothing like the older Savage Fox Model A that was based on the Stevens 311,
The original Fox Model B which was introduced in mid-1939, was essentially the internal parts of the J. Stevens No. 530 stuck in a nicer profiled receiver with a bit nicer stock. There was no such thing as a Stevens Model 311 until after WW-II. The J. Stevens Arms Co.'s Springfield No. 311, which was introduced circa 1929, was built on the G.S. Lewis patent action with coil spring driven strikers as was their Springfield No. 315 and their Stevens No. 330 as well as myriad "trade brand" guns.
Good looking gun. I hope it does well for Savage.
I've got a few of RBLs and I am happy with them. They don't get out much because my tastes have migrated towards lighter weight guns, though.
Doesn't make sense for Savage to name it "Fox", though. At this point in time, those who know the Fox name won't be fooled, and those who don't know the Fox name won't understand or care. And, I wonder why Tony Galazan would allow the trademarked name of his fine Fox guns to be watered down by all this. I wonder if he is struggling to keep his workers busy: "I'll let you name your new gun 'Fox' if you let me make them . . ." ?
These are simply business decisions based on factors we don't know much about...the health of Tony's business, how busy is his manufacturing, how much Savage was prepared to pay for the Fox name, etc.
Brand names are often pimped out for licensing fees, as the value of the operating business recedes. Or in any area that the core business doesn't touch. In this case, the value of the core operating business that uses the Fox name (Tony's replica Fox gun business) would likely have a remarkably small annual turnover despite the high regard and knowledge level we have of the brand name and Tony's A H Fox branded product.
Brand names are often pimped out for licensing fees, as the value of the operating business recedes. Or in any area that the core business doesn't touch. In this case, the value of the core operating business that uses the Fox name (Tony's replica Fox gun business) would likely have a remarkably small annual turnover despite the high regard and knowledge level we have of the brand name and Tony's A H Fox branded product.
Huh?
JR
What bothers me most about these guns is the 3 or 4 separate engraving patterns utilized on different areas of the gun. The only “fox” appropriate treatments are on the sides of the frame. And the breech balls and top tang are nothing like anything on a fox. And why not match all the other areas of the gun to that???
I was under the impression that Savage owned the Fox name and Tony was the licensee...Geo
I do like the frame sculpting of the original fox guns. What they lacked though in having the most beautiful looking box lock ever was to get rid of that flat back line. The simple shallow arch on the back of the "New Lefever" crossbolt guns added tremendously to their appearance IMHO. This same shape was carried all the way down to their lowest grade. Personally I do not fel this arched in back in ny way particularly alters the function or cost of fitting but it adds substantially to the appearance of the gun. I admire this over the truly fancy scalloped backs which can only be properly fit up at a substantial increase in cost. If these are properly fitted they really add nothing except showcasing the workmanship of the fitter, but if not properly fitted they greatly detract from the usefulness of the stock.
Others with more experience may strongly disagree with me here but I find a Fox to be a quite difficult gun to work on internally. As it stands at present I would much prefer to install the dread top lever spindle of an L C Smith than to install the hammers on a Fox. Over my years of experience I have found that "ALL" guns are a compromise, each have their good points & each have their bad points, there is "NO" perfect one. Some folks admire one feature while others admire another feature. Original Foxes are nice guns & I can understand why so many admire them, they just don't happen to be my personal favorite, no offence meant to those who hold them as their favorites, you probably don't like mine either & no offence taken. As they say Different Strokes for Different Folks"
I was under the impression that Savage owned the Fox name and Tony was the licensee...Geo
George, depends on the terms of the license. But unless Tony is a dummy, his license probably covers all firearms or all shotguns and if Savage wanted to do something, they would have to license it back. Have seen that before.
What bothers me most about these guns is the 3 or 4 separate engraving patterns utilized on different areas of the gun. The only “fox” appropriate treatments are on the sides of the frame. And the breech balls and top tang are nothing like anything on a fox. And why not match all the other areas of the gun to that???
Brian, you need to understand that this thing is a Fox in name only. There is literally no effort made to replicate an A.H. Fox other than the attempt at making the pointed frame sides. It is an RBL with a few cosmetic changes. Don't try to make it into anything resembling Ansley's original.
JR
A bit heavy aren't they? A 20 b at, or close to 7 lbs, or even more. I saw a 20 on gunsamerica over 7 lbs (7.6 lbs). Seems kind of heavy for a game gun.
A bit heavy aren't they? A 20 b at, or close to 7 lbs, or even more. I saw a 20 on gunsamerica over 7 lbs (7.6 lbs). Seems kind of heavy for a game gun.
Buzz, if you're speaking of the new A Grade, I can't imagine enough weight variation, gun to gun, that there's one out there at well over 7 pounds. The one I handled wasn't anywhere close to 7#. I'll put one on my postal scale as soon as I get it. But my guesstimate is that the gun I had in my hands--20ga, 28" barrels--would've gone 6 1/4, tops. I believe the Savage promotional material suggests 6 pounds. And I can believe that before I'd ever give any credibility to 7 pounds plus.
What bothers me most about these guns is the 3 or 4 separate engraving patterns utilized on different areas of the gun. The only “fox” appropriate treatments are on the sides of the frame. And the breech balls and top tang are nothing like anything on a fox. And why not match all the other areas of the gun to that???
Brian, you need to understand that this thing is a Fox in name only. There is literally no effort made to replicate an A.H. Fox other than the attempt at making the pointed frame sides. It is an RBL with a few cosmetic changes. Don't try to make it into anything resembling Ansley's original.
JR
Well of course. Im just saying that a little extra step could have been taken for a better package cosmetically.
Larry, I don't mean to be argumentative, but check out this Gunsamerica listing: Item # 947927269. It's a Savage Fox Model A 20b w 28" barrels for $4995 which they say weighs 7.6 lbs. In addition, if you look at the Savage website regarding these guns, I don't see where they talk weight of the guns. One would think they would be touting a 6 lb 20 bore weight as a huge selling point if that's what the 20's weigh. I will be interested in what your test gun weighs. Take care, hope you are doing well. Buzz. PS, I hope you are right, a 6 lb or sub 6 lb 20 b would be pretty sweet.
Larry, I don't mean to be argumentative, but check out this Gunsamerica listing: Item # 947927269. It's a Savage Fox Model A 20b w 28" barrels for $4995 which they say weighs 7.6 lbs. In addition, if you look at the Savage website regarding these guns, I don't see where they talk weight of the guns. One would think they would be touting a 6 lb 20 bore weight as a huge selling point if that's what the 20's weigh. I will be interested in what your test gun weighs. Take care, hope you are doing well. Buzz
You can be sure that's either a 12 ga., or a weight mis-print. I assure you the 20 will NOT weigh anywhere near 7.6 lbs.
JR
Buzz, I tracked the guns Cabela's currently lists. Their Glendale store has a 12 at 7 3/4. I think that's the source of the weight you saw on GA (or else, as suggested above, it's a misprint). I found 2 20's with 28" barrels--Sidney store, weight listed at 5/9. (Pretty sure the one I handled was not quite that light.) Hamburg, same gun--6#. There's an obviously messed up listing at the Lacey store for a 28ga, with a listed weight of 7#. Since there are no 28ga A Grades being made, I tossed that one out.
If it is really an RBL, then the weight should be 6 to 6 1/4 lbs. as that seems to be the typical weight of an RBL.
The 20-gauge reviewed in the American Rifleman is listed as weighing 6 pounds 3 ounces, exactly what my straight grip, double trigger, slim forearm Launch Edition RBL weighs, and FWIW, exactly what my 1913-vintage, 20-gauge, 28-inch barrel, Ansley H. Fox A-Grade weighs. I was going to read the American Rifleman article on the new "FOX" but threw it down after the glaring error in the first paragraph. At least not a picture of a vent-ribbed Parker as in their recent article on L.C. Smith!! What a rag it has become!!
Larry,
The Cabelas in League City, Texas has a Merkel 47E case colored 20 ga. for $4000.00. Even at $4500.00, the new Fox A seems unrealistic.
Karl
Karl, I'm a Merkel fan. Looks like somebody already snapped that one up. But it's not new, is described as having some pitting and rust in the bores, doesn't have choke tubes, and doesn't have a case. Can't say which way I'd jump on an A Grade vs that Merkel--assuming the pitting and rust can be cleaned up easily (and I'd be surprised if that's a real problem on that gun). But it does make one wonder what you'd find if you took the action apart.
I think I brought this up several months ago after returning from CSMC. The sales rep informed me they are currently running the new Savage "fox" since I put him on the spot asking when they'll be closing up shop.
I was informed that the the new fox is based off the RBL with a good price point. If anyone is interested, The sales rep tried to put me into another RBL, and stated to me to make offer, And kept telling me he can discount the gun. I did not pursue or ask any further. Not sure but too me they are discounting there inventory and th deal appears to be with there limited inventory of RBLs.
Neither is a Fox Model B. But Savage is selling them, and Savage owns the name . . . so they can call it whatever they want. Kinda like SKB's from Turkey aren't the same as the Japanese guns; Webley & Scotts from Turkey aren't the same as the British guns. And the LC Smiths Marlin had made recently aren't the same as original Elsies. But again, Marlin owns the name.
Neither is a Fox Model B. But Savage is selling them, and Savage owns the name . . . so they can call it whatever they want. Kinda like SKB's from Turkey aren't the same as the Japanese guns; Webley & Scotts from Turkey aren't the same as the British guns. And the LC Smiths Marlin had made recently aren't the same as original Elsies. But again, Marlin owns the name.
The shotgun boys at another forum were about to throw in a towel seeing MSRP of 5000. I had to use all my persuasion telling them about time proven Anson & Deeley of WR and how it withstood test of time since 1875. I predicted price will settle on what Euro Optik sold Merkel Bros. 47e and 1620s for. They are eagerly awaiting result of your evaluation.
OK OK, I give up...So if Remington owned the name PARKER, they could stamp an 870 "A1Special" and guys like Last Word Larry would run to Walmart on Black Friday and buy one, and brag about it? IT AINT A FOX..IT AINT A PARKER and I don't care..
The greatest gun salesman of all time is out of office. The "Make America Great Again" or as I prefer to say "Make America Prosperous Again" isn't going to work for everyone. You probably noticed discounts from companies like Remington, S&W, Ruger,.....it's "Ramen Noodle" time for them at least until 2018 mid-term elections. I would hate to work for company that make AR stuff now.
OK OK, I give up...So if Remington owned the name PARKER, they could stamp an 870 "A1Special" and guys like Last Word Larry would run to Walmart on Black Friday and buy one, and brag about it? IT AINT A FOX..IT AINT A PARKER and I don't care..
I agree, LD. Just as when CSMC built the Rizzini-clone Inverness and then changed the Inverness cosmetically and called it a Model 21 o/u. Too much obvious rebadging for my taste.
JR
OK OK, I give up...So if Remington owned the name PARKER, they could stamp an 870 "A1Special" and guys like Last Word Larry would run to Walmart on Black Friday and buy one, and brag about it? IT AINT A FOX..IT AINT A PARKER and I don't care..
I agree, LD. Just as when CSMC built the Rizzini-clone Inverness and then changed the Inverness cosmetically and called it a Model 21 o/u. Too much obvious rebadging for my taste.
JR
It will not work in this business. The only place this works is among striker fired plastic gun or handgun segment in general. I remember people running around trying to find the then new CZ P10c which is basically copy of a Glock.
Who, exactly, are they marketing a rebadged SKB boxlock to? Who pays 5 large for an SKB boxlock that says "FOX" on the side of it?
I might be wrong, but, I'd guess in a season or two, one will see some steep discounts on the few guns that were produced, and production quietly ended.
The original Fox guns have their fans, but, most of those fans have some gray, or, no hair at this juncture. Thats a finite and fickle market, that isn't all that interested in rebadged anything.
I wish them luck.
Best,
Ted
People seem to see similarity of RBL to that of SKB while the truth is that the designs date back to 1875 and shop of Westley Richards if I recall correctly. Perhaps they should emulate the simplest design which is from what I recall the legendary workhorse Emperor hammer-less from famous gun, "pot and pan" maker (like our Winchester) of Birmingham by name of W.W. Greener. They best known for the Facile Princeps actioned guns which if found with tang safety best our A.H.Fox.
They best known for the Facile Princeps actioned guns which if found with tang safety best our A.H.Fox.
Unless you try to close the action when it isn't cocked. Then, the F-er breaks parts.
Good luck getting somebody to fix it, correctly, on this side of the pond.
Guns, and children's toys, should NOT be that easy to break.
Best,
Ted
If this new Fox is based off the RBL it is a good gun. And Savage can call it whatever they want. However, with short Barrels I would never consider one, but if a double trigger 32” model was offered I would be tempted.
If this new Fox is based off the RBL it is a good gun. And Savage can call it whatever they want. However, with short Barrels I would never consider one, but if a double trigger 32” model was offered I would be tempted.
Pretty sure you won't get anything longer than 28". You definitely won't, for the time being.
Ted maybe I'm not thinking clearly yet this morning, but the only way I can think of to close the gun without it being cocked is to shoot both barrels and then take it apart with the shells in the barrel, and then put it back together and close it...Geo
Or maybe have the forend fall off.
There is a Sufi poem "Mantiq a Tayr".In the Quaran, Solomon knows this poem!.In the poem, a little bird has flown South along the red sea, and seen a Queen as beautiful as the morning star and bedecked with precious jewels! This Queen of Sheba lifts her skirts to walk on Solomons glass floor, believing it to be water. In doing so her legs are revealed as those of those of a wild ass, hairy and ugly. And So, betrays her identity as a Desert Demon....And so my children, She was NOT the queen of Sheba and this 5000 pile of parts, aint a FOX, Aint a Fox, Aint a Fox, Aint a Fox...NO, Aint a Fox
I actually agree with you here LD. A rebranded gun with the Fox name and completely different mechanism ain't a Fox.
Now, hopefully you understand why guys who support and defend anti-gun politicians shouldn't ever be considered to be pro-gun guys. People who pretend to be pro-gun while supporting those who would take away our Constitutional Rights are just as deceptive and ugly as that beautiful Queen with the hairy demon's legs of a wild ass.
Thanks for the wonderful illustration!
So is this an SKB identifying as a Fox or an RBL identifying as a Fox? What would the DNA test reveal? There seems to be a lot of that kind of confusion going around these days. I’d still like one with 32” barrels and DTs.
Ted maybe I'm not thinking clearly yet this morning, but the only way I can think of to close the gun without it being cocked is to shoot both barrels and then take it apart with the shells in the barrel, and then put it back together and close it...Geo
Or maybe have the forend fall off.
There is that way, for sure, Geo, but there are guys that put the gun in a fitted case, barrels off, and use their little piece of horn to snap the locks, with disaster resulting, in the case of these guns, when it is reassembled. Also, someone who doesn't know better who decides to check the triggers pulls to see if they are nice and light and crisp with the barrels removed, figuring it is super safe that way.
The desire to produce idiot proof devices never truly reckons with the ingenuity of idiots.
Best,
Ted
A "True" Fox is whatever gun the owner of the brand says it is. You may not like that, but that's the deal.
There is a big difference between a 'vette and a Vega but they are both Chevys.
C'mon James... When Coca-Cola came out with the New Coke, everyone knew it wasn't Coke. Even Coca-Cola eventually realized that, but they really hurt their own business trying to fool us.
And we all know that a Lefever Nitro Special ain't really a Lefever, even if it is a solid and serviceable shotgun.
By the way, I've got this Rolex I bought on a street corner in NYC. It says Rolex, so it must be the real deal. I paid $29.00 for it, and it only loses 7 minutes a day. I'll let you have it for $15.00, and you pay the $10.00 to Dave!
I did not know about the Greener FP problem Ted brought up. I have a couple of them, so I'll file that tidbit away and maybe not tear up my guns. Thanks Ted...Geo
Is a Chevy still a Chevy now with all the foreign made parts? Is a Jeep Renegade made in Torino a Jeep? Is a Toyota built in Kentucky a Japanese car? Is a Mercedes built in Tuscaloosa a German car? Is a Maytag built by Whirlpool a "Maytag?" Conundrums.
The Raiders/Broncos game is cancelled and will be decided by a coin toss..because ? Who cares???
C'mon James... When Coca-Cola came out with the New Coke, everyone knew it wasn't Coke. Even Coca-Cola eventually realized that, but they really hurt their own business trying to fool us.
And we all know that a Lefever Nitro Special ain't really a Lefever, even if it is a solid and serviceable shotgun.
By the way, I've got this Rolex I bought in on a street corner in NYC. It says Rolex, so it must be the real deal. I paid $29.00 for it, and it only loses 7 minutes a day. I'll let you have it for $15.00, and you pay the $10.00 to Dave!
I'll take the watch Keith, but only if you pay Dave.
Ted maybe I'm not thinking clearly yet this morning, but the only way I can think of to close the gun without it being cocked is to shoot both barrels and then take it apart with the shells in the barrel, and then put it back together and close it...Geo
Or maybe have the forend fall off.
That's how I store my shotgun. Put snap caps in, pull the triggers then take the forearm off and the barrels. In the trunk case and under the bed.
Its an idiot proof Ithaca so I got no problems.
Is a Chevy still a Chevy now with all the foreign made parts? Is a Jeep Renegade made in Torino a Jeep? Is a Toyota built in Kentucky a Japanese car? Is a Mercedes built in Tuscaloosa a German car? Is a Maytag built by Whirlpool a "Maytag?" Conundrums.
The answer is an emphatic yes.
Just because the owners of the brand are fine with debasing the brand value, built up over many years, by selling crap with a good name on it, doesn't change it.
Rolls, Ferarri, Patek Philippe, Purdey remain highly valued because they rarely debase their brand name.
Rocketman's valuation charts are wonderful for emphasizing this fact using a real world data base.
Ted maybe I'm not thinking clearly yet this morning, but the only way I can think of to close the gun without it being cocked is to shoot both barrels and then take it apart with the shells in the barrel, and then put it back together and close it...Geo
Or maybe have the forend fall off.
That's how I store my shotgun. Put snap caps in, pull the triggers then take the forearm off and the barrels. In the trunk case and under the bed. Its an idiot proof Ithaca so I got no problems.
Whew that seems like a lot of work. I like to just leave mine in the case, in the trunk of the car. What could possibly go wrong?
I would James but, I don't got no trunk. I gots me a pickup truck.
But during hunting season it sits leaning up against the wall behind the kitchen door.
I would James but, I don't got no trunk. I got a pickup truck.
Hahahaha! You got me, Treb. The truth is I drive either a Pathfinder SUV or a VW Passat Wagon. No trunk in either but lots of room.
A Pathfinder? Those are good, very good.
They had a race up in Alaska and three out of the six teams were using Pathfinders.
Rolls was sold to BMW...Bentley to Volkswagen....Alfa Romeo to Fiat...
Point is the world changes. Josef Schrumpeter described the energy of a capitalist system and for the first time in the 1930's defined the driving role of profit motive in innovation...something he called "creative destruction" where the invention of today sows the seeds of it being supplanted tomorrow.
One can always buy historic guns and be content. But you can't pretend that the 1946 Chevy my stepfather drove from Alabama out to California in 1947 was in any way comparable to the cars of today technology wise (except in the sheer tank-like iron it was made out of.)
Guns are a bit different. Like paintings they endure. I love my few turn of the 19th century SxS's and for me they are art (and I'm not a collector). Ya'll know I'm giving my Dau-in-law that 1906 16 ga Gerest-Bertron French SxS. but if you were to buy a gun today on a minimum salary....you'd have to go with something with multiple chokes.
C'mon James... When Coca-Cola came out with the New Coke, everyone knew it wasn't Coke. Even Coca-Cola eventually realized that, but they really hurt their own business trying to fool us.
And we all know that a Lefever Nitro Special ain't really a Lefever, even if it is a solid and serviceable shotgun.
By the way, I've got this Rolex I bought on a street corner in NYC. It says Rolex, so it must be the real deal. I paid $29.00 for it, and it only loses 7 minutes a day. I'll let you have it for $15.00, and you pay the $10.00 to Dave!
I'll take the watch Keith, but only if you pay Dave.
Too late James. It's sold, pending funds.
But there's still hope for you. I sold it to Jagermeister on the Layaway plan.
Keith, I think Jägermeister is in fact our own Ed Goode in another persona. He's lonely in S. New Hampshire in a village with 150 people. He needs you to reach out to him regularly.
And now you can start ranting about torched guns. He sells the guns he scrounges from the local community and some are dogs. And he admitted to me he likes to troll. But my dear Keith he does know guns...and he sold me one that was everything as advertised. (and me bidding on that gun was a total accident). And I've heard more interesting posts from him that I have from you in 1000 of your vomits.
Your rants start to take on a tinge of instability. Drink a hot milk.
Rolls was sold to BMW...Bentley to Volkswagen....Alfa Romeo to Fiat...
Point is the world changes. Josef Schrumpeter described the energy of a capitalist system and for the first time in the 1930's defined the driving role of profit motive in innovation...something he called "creative destruction" where the invention of today sows the seeds of it being supplanted tomorrow.
One can always buy historic guns and be content. But you can't pretend that the 1946 Chevy my stepfather drove from Alabama out to California in 1947 was in any way comparable to the cars of today technology wise (except in the sheer tank-like iron it was made out of.)
Guns are a bit different. I love my few turn of the 19th century SxS's and for me they are art (and I'm not a collector). Ya'll know I'm giving my Dau-in-law that 1906 16 ga Gerest-Bertron French SxS. but if you were to buy a gun today on a minimum salary....you'd have to go with something with multiple chokes.
Gene, some of us are throwbacks and are fine with the handicap that may entail.
Truth is, if I could only have one gun and my financial situation insisted that it be relatively modest in cost.....it would be a Fox SW in 16 gauge. Reasonably open chokes and adjust my hunting, not my gun.
keith agreeing with LD. It’s a festivus miracle.
Jag should be along shortly to tell us driving his Honda Civic (80 % US/CAN content) to Canada for apple pie makes him more American than Ted with his Ford F-150 (50 % US/CAN content)
Baseball, hotdogs, (Canadian) apple pie and Chevrolet!
Renegades are built in Melfi, not Turin.
___________________________
A festivus for the rest of us! Frank Costanza
https://youtu.be/HX55AzGku5Y
Argo, I think you may be correct about Ed Good using more than one screen name here. He wouldn't be the only one. And I know he has admitted that he enjoys being a Troll.
Sorry that my confrontations with anti-gun Trolls, liars, and idiots bothers you so much. I really thought that a savant such as yourself would have more tolerance for such things.
Speaking of vomit, what do you call that pretentious "Baluch are not Brahui; Brahui are Baluch" tag-line? Sounds a lot like vomiting to me.
Don't burn yourself while warming your milk.
Canvas, I absolutely understand. As you all know I shot a 1979 870 for 35 years before I was enticed back into the SxS fold...and that old 870 was chambered for 2 3/4 and has no rib and no changeable choke..and son #2 has it now and it will last another 100 years. But he has an extra barrel with changeable chokes (as soon as I had to get out the grinder to correct the modern imperfections at the chamber that led it to jam - as you guys point out...the new Remingtons aren't like the old).
Other son, I gave him a Marine Magnum Remington 870 nickel plated with an extra 28" barrel, chambered for 3"....he does kayaking and trekking up in southern Alaska in a salt-water environment in a mid-latitude rain-forest with Bears...Wrote a line about this.
And for me, the most pleasure I've ever had was shooting my 1898 Reilly hammer gun with 30" Damascus barrels. This is not to denigrate anyone...or any of our guns which are beautiful and useful and workmen like and balance perfectly. It's just to say...those boys don't have the money to own and maintain an old gun...Dau-in-law does but she will only shoot occasionally.
And I guess it's to say a modern Fox isn't an old Fox...but does it pretend to be?
(Uhh...what was my point? 2 scotches sitting in Central Africa at 2130...doesn't lead to coherence.
Yes, Keith I should get rid of that line ...It's left over from about 45 years ago when I discovered the sub-continent and still think about it (I only spent 10 years out there). I was up in Baluchistan when Daud Khan was overthrow in Kabul on 29 April 1978. The Brahui speak a Dravidian language (now only found in South India) - the Baluch an ancient form of Persian (Indo-European family and directly related to English) but somehow a Brahui became the Khan of Qalat and titular head of the Baluch...and to create a Baluch nation, like a Kurdish nation, you'd need to dismember 3 countries.
And I can see how you'd make a totally useless personal-attack post based on that. Tell you what...post something you know about guns. Or do you actually know anything at all?
[quote=lonesome roads]keith agreeing with LD. It’s a festivus miracle.
Jag should be along shortly to tell us driving his Honda Civic (80 % US/CAN content) to Canada for apple pie makes him more American than Ted with his Ford F-150 (50 % US/CAN content)
Baseball, hotdogs, (Canadian) apple pie and Chevrolet!
Renegades are built in Melfi, not Turin.
No, I drive soccer ma mobile in form of Nissan Rogue with eco-friendly four cylinder engine.
How about this post?
When I do a quick calculation using an average density for steel, the thickness of 60g of metal removed from the diameter of just one bore of these barrels would come to 0.072 thousandths. Meaning a negligible change in wall thickness from proof.
You might want to check your calculation again because .072" is .005" greater than the difference between a 12 gauge and a 16 gauge bore. That is hardly a negligible difference.
Or this post?
How about the shotguns built by John Nichols or Nichols and Lefever?
Or how about this one?
That screw with the face spanner holes is one of Lefever's wear compensating features. If your barrels are proud of the action at the breech face, moving that screw probably won't help at all. Some barrels were just struck that way, and some are struck a bit smaller than the breech balls. The compensating screw is only used to put barrels back on face. If the gun is loose, the bolting surfaces are worn, and the early Lefevers had another compensating screw to tighten that up. For later guns, it is easier to just make a new bolt a few thousandths thicker.
Many Lefevers are found with this compensating screw all buggered up because they are usually very difficult or impossible to move after 125 or more years. The later versions had a large screw slot that could withstand more torque, but even those can be very stubborn. I have had some that finally broke free after several months of soaking with good penetrating oil (forget about Kroil for these), heating with a soldering iron, rapid cooling with refrigerant, tapping with a brass rod, etc.
On the few that I have removed, I found a very slight taper to the threads, and I think the female threads also have a very slight taper, so getting them to go much deeper isn't easy anyway. I believe that when the guns were built, the assemblers probably ran the tap in a bit at a time to end up with a tight fit so this screw wouldn't back out. Retired Oregon Lefever Gunsmith Keith Kearcher recommended polishing the threads on a buffing wheel to get them to go a bit deeper. Good luck with finding a replacement screw though, if your buffing wheel grabs it and throws it into some dark corner of your shop. I forget the thread size, but it is most definitely not a standard size that you can simply buy a tap to run into the hole. I noticed that a couple seemed to have a hard black substance that may have been some early version of thread locker compound that prevented any penetrating oil from getting down into the threads. I have a loose I Grade gun on which I never was able to move this screw despite numerous attempts. I keep occasionally hitting it with Tasgon penetrating oil in the hope that it might eventually break free. After two years or so... no luck yet.
I made a face spanner for this type of Lefever compensating screw by drilling properly spaced holes into the end of a piece of drill rod with a small tee handle welded on, and using needle bearings from an old universal joint for my hardened pins. I suppose you could also use the end of the correct size drill bit to make pins. Some people recommend making a face spanner tool by carefully filing pins out of the end of a grade 8 bolt. That seemed like too much work for something that will probably break anyway. Naturally, a couple small pins won't take the same amount of torque that a good screwdriver blade will take, so great care must be taken to not get impatient and do damage to the screw or action knuckle.
Or how about this post?
You have an early thumb push opener model that was built when E was the lowest grade Lefever. The insert in the tip of the forend would have been made of a dark colored buffalo horn. It will take some care to remove the piece of wood that was used to replace the missing horn tip without doing damage, especially if glue was used in addition to the brads.
It looks like your gun still has a lot of original case hardening color on the sideplates. I notice that the forend iron is not attached to the wood, and the forend release and escutcheon is also removed. I hope it isn't missing because finding a replacement would be very difficult. The buttstock appears to have very nice figure and looks to be in pretty nice shape. If you decide to have someone refinish it, make certain it is someone who knows what they are doing. That wood is over 125 years old, and Lefevers tend to crack or split at the head of the stock above and below the sideplates where the thin and fragile wood meets the action. Great care must be taken during any disassembly. It is also for this reason that only low pressure low recoil loads should be used if the barrels are un-pitted and still safe to fire. You may be able to find pictures of the forend checkering when one comes up for sale on Gunbroker or other online source. Or enough of the original pattern may still be seen after stripping the finish for a good stock checkerer to re-cut it exactly as it was originally. Here's a pic of the forend checkering and the horn tip.
A good restoration will not be cheap, but a cheap restoration will likely do more harm than good. You would be better off leaving it as is than letting someone screw it up with incorrect techniques and materials.
Should I copy more because there is a whole bunch of them. Or is that enough expertise for ya?
Tre...I humbly admit that I am an amateur. And I recognize that Keith has been acknowledged in the past for his expertise. It's just that since I joined this board less than two years ago...I've seen nothing but rants. And you guys know best. I will shut my mouth and endure.
(oh but I would like to see the old Keith...kind of like an old Fox...back.)
Well, he tears into those idiots because he doesn't suffer fools, I reckon.
It's the internet Tre...you don't change anybody's mind on anything except by expertise. And thanks for the background....everyone says Keith knows his stuff...he's just wandered off the face of doublegundom since I've been around and I have a thirst for knowledge on this subject. And you can get political opinions from your local drunks in a bar.
Believe me Argo, if you would have seen the old 'Ed' with the utter nonsense he was spewing you would be pissed at him also.
Everybody else was.
Tre...I can utterly believe that...absolutely. Wonder what loneliness does to people? In the old days you'd have Ham radio....CQ CQ this is WB4IPW....(_._. __._ _.. . __ _... ...._ .. .__. .__). and people would talk...civilly. Now there's the internet and people make stupid to create a conversation.
I lived in Italy for 5+ years...if something happened the Italians would be in the street talking about it in a nanosecond...My French wife told me in about 2011 or so while I was in Afghanistan, an ice storm hit McLean and power was knocked out for 10 day...it took about 9 days before the inhabitants of the houses (that the Arabs call the tomb of the living) emerged to stand in the street and start to talk. Americans are pretty solitary..internet has not improved the conversation.
Man! this shit is getting weird! Keith is Keith...If you dont like the way he expresses himself and about what, well...Don't read it.I peak in once in a while when he is not ripping some one and he knows his stuff..This Argo dude is so focused on impressing the rest of the world with his heroic exploits that he just has to be a wannabe....Guys who have been there and done that shit don't post pics of them being there doing that shit. But if that's what spins his crank, so be it..It still AINT A FOX...AINT A FOX AINT A FOX..
Whew....I find myself accused of being a troll. Have a nice night and a nice debate about Fox....I just got tired of the BS everybody on this board on almost every line anyone has posted has had to put up with for two years. Backing out. Go to it LD. You fix things.
Because for sure You ain't been there and done that s**T!!!
He's new. Argo already said he gets it. Give him a break.
With that beautifully sculpted frame only a Fox is a Fox.
Fixing things is no me yob...
I've got a good idea who I'd want in my foxhole if the fit hits the shan.
I've got a good idea who I'd want in my foxhole if the fit hits the shan.
Diane Kruger...or Jesus.
_________________________
McLean sounds like a bigger shytehole than Afghanistan.
I think one of the things that turns me off about this effort is that Savage is not offering any options for a potential buyer to get what they want. They are basically saying "We know what you want, and it is a 20, with 28" barrels. I'm sure their marketing department tried to come up with the configuration that would be the best compromise ......... but who wants to spend $4500 for a compromise? Not me.
S X S enthusiasts are pretty opinionated. Even the RBL was offered as a "build it yourself" gun. I think for this gun to be successful this has to happen, and the price has to be more reasonable.
SRH
A Pathfinder? Those are good, very good.
They had a race up in Alaska and three out of the six teams were using Pathfinders.
Treb, you missed it. It's my second Pathfinder and my fifth Datsun/Nissan (3 different 240Z back in my youth). But it's the Passat Wagon that's a smoking vehicle.
2002 W8 4 litre 8 cylinder engine and 4Motion all wheel drive and Tiptronic transmission. Back shortly after I bought it, during the summer of 2004, I was making a quick trip up to my hunting lodge at Delta Marsh to get it ready for the fall season. On those nice, flat and straight Manitoba roads I took that little sleeper up to 155 mph. Not bad for a wagon with power everything. A serious sleeper. Still love to drive it.
I think one of the things that turns me off about this effort is that Savage is not offering any options for a potential buyer to get what they want. They are basically saying "We know what you want, and it is a 20, with 28" barrels. I'm sure their marketing department tried to come up with the configuration that would be the best compromise ......... but who wants to spend $4500 for a compromise? Not me.
S X S enthusiasts are pretty opinionated. Even the RBL was offered as a "build it yourself" gun. I think for this gun to be successful this has to happen, and the price has to be more reasonable.
SRH
And Savage will pay the price.
Man! this shit is getting weird! Keith is Keith...If you dont like the way he expresses himself and about what, well...Don't read it.I peak in once in a while when he is not ripping some one and he knows his stuff..This Argo dude is so focused on impressing the rest of the world with his heroic exploits that he just has to be a wannabe....Guys who have been there and done that shit don't post pics of them being there doing that shit. But if that's what spins his crank, so be it..It still AINT A FOX...AINT A FOX AINT A FOX..
What I notice, LD, about Argo's posts is that on subjects that can be judged for veracity and thoroughness, Argo is up there with the very best posters ever on this site. I have also watched him spearhead an effort to create a significantly useful database of French/English, English French gun terminology. And that's just in the short time he has been on this site.
We need more guys like him and less loudmouth, blowhard dipsters like you. What have you contributed to this site recently that gives you the balls to to call out Argo? I'm with GLS....I'll take Argo when the SHTF over you every day of the week.
To everyone else, sorry, I'm still off topic here.
And on the subject of Foxes, where is that other tough old bird, Francis? Gil
A Pathfinder? Those are good, very good.
They had a race up in Alaska and three out of the six teams were using Pathfinders.
Treb, you missed it. It's my second Pathfinder and my fifth Datsun/Nissan (3 different 240Z back in my youth). But it's the Passat Wagon that's a smoking vehicle.
2002 W8 4 litre 8 cylinder engine and 4Motion all wheel drive and Tiptronic transmission. Back shortly after I bought it, during the summer of 2004, I was making a quick trip up to my hunting lodge at Delta Marsh to get it ready for the fall season. On those nice, flat and straight Manitoba roads I took that little sleeper up to 155 mph. Not bad for a wagon with power everything. A serious sleeper. Still love to drive it.
155 mph!!!!! That is a sleeper in coveted Porsche territory.
And on the subject of Foxes, where is that other tough old bird, Francis? Gil
I haven't seen a post from RWTF for quite awhile.
Gentlemen,
In reading this thread in its entirety; I think Ted nailed it early on, but the thread drift is such that one need also acknowledge that LD's remarks are correct and the gentlemen like Argo are not w/o substantive background and perspective, that I for one much appreciate. That applies to many others here as well.
It has become problematic, that we have to waste time reading remarks not germane to the subject at hand. There is a wealth of good information available here from people with hands on experience, technical subject knowledge, great ref. libraries &c. and if we take Dave's original rules for keeping it between the lines, the dialogue containing wisdom will be much more easily digested.
As Wonko is prone to say, 'just a thot'
I think one of the things that turns me off about this effort is that Savage is not offering any options for a potential buyer to get what they want. They are basically saying "We know what you want, and it is a 20, with 28" barrels. I'm sure their marketing department tried to come up with the configuration that would be the best compromise ......... but who wants to spend $4500 for a compromise? Not me.
S X S enthusiasts are pretty opinionated. Even the RBL was offered as a "build it yourself" gun. I think for this gun to be successful this has to happen, and the price has to be more reasonable.
SRH
Also offered with 26" barrels, Stan. Also offered in 12ga with either 26" or 28" barrels. Ithaca did a pretty decent job selling a lot of SKB sxs with not many more options than that. They never offered double triggers, never offered barrels longer than 28" in 20ga. They did have a couple different styles of forend, and they did offer guns with either extractors or ejectors. But you only got a splinter if you took extractors. And they eventually got around to offering a straight grip as well as a PG--but only with a BT forend.
I'm pretty sure Savage is aware that they're not going to sell tens of thousands of A Grades. If there's a big surprise and they sell a lot more than they anticipate, maybe they'll offer limited options like Ithaca did with its SKB sxs. Tony Galazan, in contrast, is a force of nature in the gun business. He gets people to pay for production line guns months before they're delivered. That gives him the $ in the bank to offer onesies and twosies for people who want something a little different. Most companies don't have that luxury. Even a giant like Beretta doesn't offer many options on its sxs.
I predict it will be dead fox in a few years...
Dead now cuz it aint a Fox...
Dead with you, LD . . . not necessarily dead with everyone who might want to buy an American-made sxs (made by one American gunmaker, sold by an American gun company). We don't have a lot of options out there when it comes to a new American-made sxs. The originals were great guns. But the newest Fox built on Ansley's original design--if you don't count the ones built by CSMC--are now in the neighborhood of a century old, give or take. They're there if people want them. For that matter, newer guns carrying the Fox name (the Model B) are also there if people want them. This is just one more option . . . in a world where new American sxs that cost less than a new car have become pretty rare.
This determination to shit on those who try really amazes me. Just because it's not what I want doesn't make it intrinsically bad. Just because it ain't what Ansley designed doesn't mean everyone will hate it.
I think we should be applauding the effort, not crapping on it. I'm never buying the new Corvette but I sure like what they are trying to do....build a serious, made in America sports car. Good for Chevrolet. Good for Savage and good for Tony Galazan. They are introducing/encouraging more shooters and hunters to try the good thing, SxS shotguns, that we already know about.
This is just one more option . . . in a world where new American sxs that cost less than a new car have become pretty rare.
I think we should be applauding the effort, not crapping on it . . . Good for Savage and good for Tony Galazan. They are introducing/encouraging more shooters and hunters to try the good thing, SxS shotguns, that we already know about.
+1
How can it be a bad thing that an American company wants to offer a side-by-side shotgun made here in the U.S., especially one that is not aimed at the lowest common denominator of the market?
Bunch of nattering nabobs of negativity!
He's been reading and he made a post a few days ago. I guess just keeping a low profile for the time being. Hope he's well.
American made shotguns are good..But why call them what they aren't? Aint a Fox...Who is fooling who?
American made shotguns are good..But why call them what they aren't? Aint a Fox...Who is fooling who?
What's a Fox, LD?
What's a Remington?
What's Ferrari? Is it not a Ferarri if there is no V12 in it?
What's a Greener? Must it be a FP? Or is it a Wesley Richards if it's a drop lock or an A & D but not a sidelock? Must a H & H have been made in the London shop?
What's a Porsche? Biggest selling model in history and over half their current sales volume is an SUV.
Is a Ford only a Ford if it's a Model T?
This list of questions that prove you are wrong is almost endless. Don't know how you spent your career but it's clear you know little about how the marketplace works.
Hey call that gun "Tonys really great all singing all dancing Ameican shotgun" If it is a good gun, at a good price,and people buy it it should be able to build its own reputation. It aint a FOX, so stop trying to glue on a rep..I NEVER SAID it wasn't a good gun, I said "IT AINT A FOX..It aint a Fox...nope..
Sadly I see when it comes to higher quality classic shotguns "Make America Great Again" isn't going to work.
Most will choose to make: Germany, Italy, Spain,... Turkey great again.
Sadly I see when it comes to higher quality classic shotguns "Make America Great Again" isn't going to work.
Most will choose to make: Germany, Italy, Spain,... Turkey great again.
HorseShit !!
I'll take America every time.
could there be a market for a savage fox similar to this one:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/719872819offer it with longer barrels, choke tubes and a single trigger...
have it made in turkey and call it the model c...
Q: Does Galazan claim his products are 100% 'Made in USA'?
If so, is he using a literal interpretation of 'made'?
My Toyota truck wears a door sticker that says 'Assembled by Toyota Motors - Texas'. On the same sticker it says 'Made in USA'.
I know for a fact that the engine was built in Indonesia (by Toyota at a very modern facility) and the transmission was made in Japan (by Aisin, Toyota makes no transmissions to my knowledge).
The tires I can trace to Tonawanda, NY. The rest of the parts could have been made virtually anyplace in the world.
There is no way for the the consumer to tell.
Big seller with a Tenite stock!Call it a FAUX
+2 we should support our manufactures trying to put sxs back into the American made market.
My last outing at the pheasant farm was nothing but auto loaders and pumps. I ran backup and dog handler and carried to field a sxs. Sadly not an American icon sxs but a very nice AYA.
In my youth the if we could turn back time 30 years the field of 5 hunters would all have been sxs!
That's interesting. In GA, 30 yrs. ago, they would have still been all pumps and semi-s. Even 50 yrs. ago, here, I would have had the only S x S on a dove field, out of maybe 30 guns. Truth is, I don't know how far I'd have to go back to find that the S x S was the predominant action type. 100 yrs. ............ maybe?
SRH
.
PHEW ! !
I never thought my OP would leave us knee deep in BS.
Some folks here would drown if it starts raining, because their noses are so far up in the air.
FWIW, I've owned an original 20ga A.H.Fox A-Grade in 99% original condition w/26" IC/Mod barrels.
No, nothing is an Ansley H. Fox double except another A.H.Fox double.
The older Savage Fox was not an Ansley H. Fox double, either - but as limited as the options were, Savage sold an awful lot of them over the years.
I've owned a few of those too, in every gauge offering.
This newer Fox is what it is - a new American-made non-economy-grade double, with apparent decent workmanship, fit, and finish.
My take is: Love it or leave it - this is America, you pay your money (or not) & take your choice.
.
Stan, on a recent dove hunt, Mike T. shot his Citori 28; Billy, his granddad's and dad's Midas Browning O/U 20; Dexter, his Galazan Fox 16; Rick, a graded Parker 12 restored by DelGrego; Mike M's son, a Caesar Guerini 28; Mike S., another CG, (but often shoots an M21 16, DT's, splinter forend), Inman, a Beretta SP1 in 20, and I, a Higham 16 sxs. Another man left the field early after reeling off a limit with only a couple of missed birds. He was shooting a 20 O/U which I never saw. Bill B. missed the shoot and he's a Citori 20 shooter. The rest of the crew shot an assortment of pumps and autos, and they shot them very well. Gil
You run in a higher brow crowd than do I, Gil.
I can only wish I was surrounded by more nice doubles, but ................ I'm the dinosaur in my "home 20".
SRH
Stan, the above field's owner, Burke, shoots a custom fit Beretta Jubilee 20 at quail, but shoots a gas auto at dove. When dove shooting last year over where Floyd lives, Howard shot one of his Purdeys and Mills one of his Parkers. Floyd and I may hunt dove occasionally with the higher brow crowd, but we are pulling up the rear with our lesser delights times 2. Gil
When I was a kid growing up here, and shooting doves all the time, our neighboring land owner was a rich businessman form Augusta, and good family friend. He would have big dove shoots, replete with lunch, and bird boys for every shooter (except me). He would put me in the middle of the sunflower field with instructions to "keep 'em flying, boy". If you didn't shoot an A5 you just "hadn't arrived". I shot an old plain barreled Rem. 11 in 20 ga. with a IC choke, and I would be high man on the field most of the time. Cannot recall ever seeing a doublegun. Strange.
SRH
I grew up in the farm country of SW PA. People I new didn't hunt grouse. It was rabbits, pheasant, turkey, and deer. The most common shotguns were Ithaca 37s, and Winchester M12s (with polychokes). I can't remember ever seeing a side by side or over and under. This was from the mid 60s to the mid 80s.
terc
That's interesting. In GA, 30 yrs. ago, they would have still been all pumps and semi-s. Even 50 yrs. ago, here, I would have had the only S x S on a dove field, out of maybe 30 guns. Truth is, I don't know how far I'd have to go back to find that the S x S was the predominant action type. 100 yrs. ............ maybe?
SRH
Agree with you there, Stan. Post-WWII years--well, let me push that into the early to mid-50's, when I started paying attention to guns other than the .410 singles my dad and older brother had--were a pretty bleak period for doubles of any kind. The Browning Superposed was likely the most common, and you didn't really see all that many of them on a pheasant hunt in Iowa. Just too darned expensive. I got my first double--Savage 420 OU, made for only a few years right before WWII--in about 1962, and it was something of an oddity among my hunting buddies, as well as the older generation. It wasn't until we started getting OU's from Japan, courtesy of Winchester and Ithaca and Browning (plus Beretta), that they achieved some popularity. Then the Japanese-made side by sides caused a minor resurgence. And then the late Mr. McIntosh started telling us about how good those old American classic sxs were--most of which had been gathering dust in gun shops for a long time because hardly anyone wanted them. And that lit at least a small fire.
But pumps and autos were far ahead of doubles (either horizontal or vertical) for a pretty long time, whether you were a bird hunter or a target shooter.
Growing up in the 50's and 60's in my end of GA, the dove shoots were crowded with Browning A-5s and Remington model 11s. I shot pumpguns until my 40's, but always loved the sxs guns. My 1st was a Fox model B. It was a 12ga with vent rib and absolutely no balance. It almost turned me off on sxs guns until I traded into a 20ga Elsie...Geo
Back in the 50s,60s and up to mid 70s Georgia had lots of birds and hunters and I was the only one that shot doubles in Greene County.I did see one out of town hunter with a Winchester 20 ga 101. Bobby
Growing up on the Eastern Shore of Maryland in the 50's and 60's upland hunting was done almost exclusively with A5's, 37's and a few Model 12's. Most with Cutts or poly chokes attached to them. Boys were regulated to .410 or those hideous bolt action shotguns. My father gave me a 28 ga. Model 12 but none of my other friends had such a nice gun. Duck and goose hunting you would still see a few doubles, mostly Smith's and Parker's or those same A5's, 37's and Model 12's. And men shot the 12 except for a few who shot a 10 in the marsh. We had a few odd souls who shot the 16 but no more than a few.
I am sure there were other doubles owned but not used. But doubles were just out of fashion just as small bores were not in much use. Those men even hunted quail with 12's not the small bores we romantically think the did. And those Cutts caused many a dog to go deaf by age five.
Another thing I remember is that ammo was not hard to find. The Western Auto Store, Sears, Montgomery Wards, the local hardware store, the Southern States supply store and several country stores all stocked and sold ammo. The rural stores would sell shotgun shell by the part of a box. As A kid I could walk the roads picking up soda bottles to get spare change. Then I could go to the store and buy .22LR for less than .50 a box. A boy could make a box of .22 bullets last a long time. Heck back then they would sell them to a boy. Those days are gone. Another thing was that 28 ga. shells were not twice as expensive as 12's. You could order a case of them and they cost maybe two or three dollars more a case. Times have changed.
My first shotgun was a J C Higgins .410 S x S with the prettiest figured Tenite stock and forend you evah laid eyes on.
I killed many a squirrel, rabbit, dove and quail with that thing before I turned 12. That's when the 20 ga. Rem. 11 came my way ........... and life really began on the dove fields.
Good memories.
I wish Savage well, trying to market this "new" gun. I just do not think it will fly at the price they want for it. But, I could be wrong. I was, once.
SRH